INNflight
Topic Author
Posts: 3526
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 5:11 am

HDR Images (with Visible Movement) Allowed?

Mon Jul 03, 2006 5:33 pm

Mainly directed at the screening team:

In case you are familiar with HDR images, is it within the rules to upload them (especially with visible movement), or will they get an editing (or whatever) rejection?

Example photo (won't upload it, it just illustrates the topic perfectly):

Big version: Width: 640 Height: 425 File size: 149kb
HDR sample photo


Thanks i. a.

Flo
Jet Visuals
 
sulman
Posts: 1963
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2004 5:09 am

RE: HDR Images (with Visible Movement) Allowed?

Mon Jul 03, 2006 5:44 pm

Cue several 'what is HDR' posts....

I think it's okay, I'd like to see some in the DB, just out of curiosity more than anything else.


James
It takes a big man to admit they are wrong, and I am not a big man.
 
IL76
Posts: 2237
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 5:43 am

RE: HDR Images (with Visible Movement) Allowed?

Mon Jul 03, 2006 5:45 pm

Hmm... I don't know exactly what you mean by HDR. Do you mean multiple exposure?
Looks cool...


Somebody once did a shot like this with an airplane and I don't think it was accepted here. I've never seen something like it in the Q in my days of screening though. Not sure about the rules, perhaps a headscreener can comment.

Eduard

[Edited 2006-07-03 10:47:54]
 
Rotate
Posts: 1448
Joined: Tue Feb 11, 2003 5:52 pm

RE: HDR Images (with Visible Movement) Allowed?

Mon Jul 03, 2006 5:53 pm

There was one on myaviation with a GA pulling a tight turn while landing on an airfield ... - I am pretty sure HDRs are not accepted by A.net.

Robin
ABC
 
ChrisH
Posts: 1120
Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2004 4:25 am

RE: HDR Images (with Visible Movement) Allowed?

Mon Jul 03, 2006 6:02 pm

what seems to be the officer, problem?
 
IL76
Posts: 2237
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 5:43 am

RE: HDR Images (with Visible Movement) Allowed?

Mon Jul 03, 2006 6:12 pm

Hmm... Interesting information there. Opens up some cool possebilities for my holiday snaps.  Smile
E
 
INNflight
Topic Author
Posts: 3526
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 5:11 am

RE: HDR Images (with Visible Movement) Allowed?

Mon Jul 03, 2006 6:13 pm

Thanks for the response.

Quoting IL76 (Reply 2):
Do you mean multiple exposure?

Indeed, multiple exposures look great Eduard. To clarify what I mean, I don't want to shoot a series of photos and then merge them (like the boarder posted above) of an aircraft, but rather HDR in the way of merging several photos with the same scene (the overview was taken with a tripod) but different exposures.

This way you get all parts of the image with correct exposure. No blown highlights, no 'black' shadows.

Basically the luminous landscape tutorial explains the process in detail.

Thanks. F.
Jet Visuals
 
User avatar
ThierryD
Crew
Posts: 2029
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2005 6:58 pm

RE: HDR Images (with Visible Movement) Allowed?

Mon Jul 03, 2006 6:15 pm

Looks kinda spooky; like ghosts moving around on the apron.  ghost  ghost 
But I'd guess this is already too much 'editing' for A.net.

Thierry
"Go ahead...make my day"
 
INNflight
Topic Author
Posts: 3526
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 5:11 am

RE: HDR Images (with Visible Movement) Allowed?

Mon Jul 03, 2006 6:16 pm

Quoting ThierryD (Reply 7):
But I'd guess this is already too much 'editing' for A.net.

That's what I was assuming too, so I asked for clarification.
Wouldn't bother me too much though, HDR is stunning for non-av....  Smile
Jet Visuals
 
IL76
Posts: 2237
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 5:43 am

RE: HDR Images (with Visible Movement) Allowed?

Mon Jul 03, 2006 6:26 pm

Quoting INNflight (Reply 8):
HDR is stunning for non-av....

Yes! After (quickly) reading the luminous landscape tutorial I'm sure to bring my tripod to New Zealand in october!  hyper 
 
eddl
Posts: 672
Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2002 4:54 am

RE: HDR Images (with Visible Movement) Allowed?

Mon Jul 03, 2006 6:34 pm

As long as this effect is not exaggerated and not obviously visible (no movements at all), I don't see a problem with HDR images.  wave 

Phil / EDDL
 
jhribar
Posts: 113
Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2005 4:31 am

RE: HDR Images (with Visible Movement) Allowed?

Mon Jul 03, 2006 8:20 pm

HDR is stunning for aviation as well.
When you shoot RAW you can process the RAW file various times. Each time optimizing a different section in the picture. This is not realy high dynamic range but it for sure extends the dynamic range without loosing that much of quality.

The overlay is similar to working with layer masks.
This feature comes in quite handy for high contrast exposure situations.

rgds,

Jeroen
AirTeamImages
 
TS
Posts: 717
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2003 9:19 pm

RE: HDR Images (with Visible Movement) Allowed?

Mon Jul 03, 2006 8:37 pm

Merging several photos into one sounds like cheating to me. And I also don't see the point of uploading photos like the first one posted.

Thomas

[Edited 2006-07-03 13:38:56]
Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
 
KFLLCFII
Posts: 3185
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 7:08 am

RE: HDR Images (with Visible Movement) Allowed?

Mon Jul 03, 2006 8:40 pm

http://www.airliners.net/faq/

Can I send in digitally enhanced/composite photos?
No, Airliners.net does not accept photos that have been altered in any way.
"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
 
INNflight
Topic Author
Posts: 3526
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 5:11 am

RE: HDR Images (with Visible Movement) Allowed?

Mon Jul 03, 2006 8:53 pm

Quoting TS (Reply 12):
I also don't see the point of uploading photos like the first one posted.

from reply 0:

Quoting INNflight (Thread starter):
Example photo (won't upload it, it just illustrates the topic perfectly):

 Yeah sure
Jet Visuals
 
ChrisH
Posts: 1120
Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2004 4:25 am

RE: HDR Images (with Visible Movement) Allowed?

Mon Jul 03, 2006 8:57 pm

The D2x for instance can bracket 9 shots, the pictures would then all be taken within seconds. Great for night photography. I've tried a few cityscape shots in HDR and it takes some work but does look great, it looks like what the eye actually sees.
what seems to be the officer, problem?
 
KFLLCFII
Posts: 3185
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 7:08 am

RE: HDR Images (with Visible Movement) Allowed?

Mon Jul 03, 2006 9:13 pm

Quoting ChrisH (Reply 15):
The D2x for instance can bracket 9 shots, the pictures would then all be taken within seconds.

As can the 20D, and I'm sure most DSLRS as well. However:

Quoting TS (Reply 12):
Merging several photos into one sounds like cheating to me.

 checkmark 

It's a form of cheating that is specifically not allowed here, as mentioned in the upload FAQ posted above.

If you can't get the correct exposure within the constraints of a single shot, then it's time to pack up the gear and move on...
"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
 
INNflight
Topic Author
Posts: 3526
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 5:11 am

RE: HDR Images (with Visible Movement) Allowed?

Mon Jul 03, 2006 9:36 pm

Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 16):
If you can't get the correct exposure within the constraints of a single shot

Dumb statement, very very dumb.

It's not a matter of getting the right exposure, it's about achieving the result your eye actually sees. The "correct" exposure doesn't do that, especially in high contrast situations.
Jet Visuals
 
KFLLCFII
Posts: 3185
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 7:08 am

RE: HDR Images (with Visible Movement) Allowed?

Mon Jul 03, 2006 9:53 pm

Quoting INNflight (Reply 17):
It's not a matter of getting the right exposure, it's about achieving the result your eye actually sees. The "correct" exposure doesn't do that, especially in high contrast situations.

I understand that from a purely-photographic standpoint. If you're going to be entering such a shot in a photography contest, magazine, book, etc. (which isn't about how the shot was taken, but of the finished product), then more power to you.   

But you weren't asking whether or not it would simply make for a decent-looking, "here's what I saw with my own eyes, so this is how the picture is supposed to look" shot, you were asking whether or not this type of manipulation is allowed here...Which, again, it isn't:

http://www.airliners.net/faq/

Can I send in digitally enhanced/composite photos?
No, Airliners.net does not accept photos that have been altered in any way.


(Edited all the "he"s for "you"s, as I didn't notice at first that you had started the thread)

[Edited 2006-07-03 14:55:41]
"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
 
INNflight
Topic Author
Posts: 3526
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 5:11 am

RE: HDR Images (with Visible Movement) Allowed?

Mon Jul 03, 2006 9:59 pm

Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 18):
Which, again, it isn't:

already said in reply 8:

Quoting INNflight (Reply 8):

Wouldn't bother me too much though, HDR is stunning for non-av....



Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 18):
If he's going to be entering such a shot in a photography contest, magazine, book, etc.

I bet you've already seen hundreds of HDR photos in magazines or contests and didn't notice as thousands of professionals use this technique. it's not a matter of delivering the result in one shot, it's a matter of having the best photo in the end.

Have fun point-and-shooting  Smile
Jet Visuals
 
KFLLCFII
Posts: 3185
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 7:08 am

RE: HDR Images (with Visible Movement) Allowed?

Mon Jul 03, 2006 10:06 pm

Quoting INNflight (Reply 19):
I bet you've already seen hundreds of HDR photos in magazines or contests and didn't notice as thousands of professionals use this technique. it's not a matter of delivering the result in one shot, it's a matter of having the best photo in the end.

Didn't even read my reply:

Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 18):
I understand that from a purely-photographic standpoint. If you're going to be entering such a shot in a photography contest, magazine, book, etc. (which isn't about how the shot was taken, but of the finished product), then more power to you.
"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
 
ChrisH
Posts: 1120
Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2004 4:25 am

RE: HDR Images (with Visible Movement) Allowed?

Mon Jul 03, 2006 10:11 pm

Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 18):
Can I send in digitally enhanced/composite photos?
No, Airliners.net does not accept photos that have been altered in any way.

All photos on this site are inherently digitally enhanced already. So it's not a clear cut definition anyway. A HDR shot is by no means a composite, in the sense of taking 2 different pictures and doing a cut'n'paste job. It's the exact same image taken with a bigger latitude. If there was a sensor that could handle 20 stops of information, then it would be legit. Right now this is the only way to do it, I think it should also be legit. It's not a fraudulent manipulation in any sense, it's actually quite the opposite.
what seems to be the officer, problem?
 
KFLLCFII
Posts: 3185
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 7:08 am

RE: HDR Images (with Visible Movement) Allowed?

Mon Jul 03, 2006 10:36 pm

Quoting ChrisH (Reply 21):
It's not a fraudulent manipulation in any sense, it's actually quite the opposite.

It is fraudulent manipulation, and it is a cut & paste job from two different pictures (albeit the same exact scene). Just because you can't physically see the lines for where the different exposure layers meet, this doesn't mean it's any more acceptable.

When you take one photograph, and layer it with other photographs, it no longer remains a photograph in the sense of the word, but becomes a composition.

Quoting INNflight (Reply 19):
Have fun point-and-shooting

Have fun cheating the system  Wink
"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
 
timdegroot
Posts: 3258
Joined: Wed Apr 24, 2002 10:37 pm

RE: HDR Images (with Visible Movement) Allowed?

Mon Jul 03, 2006 10:38 pm

Hate to deliver bad news again, but HDR images are not allowed on here.

Will have a go at them myself though, and upload them somewhere else Smile

Tim
Alderman Exit
 
Sinkrate
Posts: 323
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 7:52 pm

RE: HDR Images (with Visible Movement) Allowed?

Mon Jul 03, 2006 10:42 pm

While HDR's are not acceptable here, they are a great way to make the image look like what your eye really saw. I've used it quite a few times and the results arent great, im still testing it out, and i've seen some awesome images merged using HDR. I might try a couple aviation photos of static aircraft on the ramp using one RAW file and making a few diffrent exposures. I wont try to upload here.

Michael
 
eddl
Posts: 672
Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2002 4:54 am

RE: HDR Images (with Visible Movement) Allowed?

Mon Jul 03, 2006 10:53 pm

Quoting TimdeGroot (Reply 23):
Hate to deliver bad news again, but HDR images are not allowed on here.

The best HDR images are the ones where you can't see the technique that has been used to deliver the result. When it's professionally done, no one will notice.  tapedshut 

Nah, we better stick to the rules.  Cool

Phil / EDDL
 
D L X
Posts: 11701
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

RE: HDR Images (with Visible Movement) Allowed?

Mon Jul 03, 2006 11:13 pm

Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 18):
Can I send in digitally enhanced/composite photos?
No, Airliners.net does not accept photos that have been altered in any way.

Clearly, that rule cannot be read too literally. If you do not digitally manipulate your shot, it will NOT be accepted here. (Nikon D200 and Canon D1 notwithstanding.)

Quoting ChrisH (Reply 21):
It's the exact same image taken with a bigger latitude.

Right. Our eyes see 10 stops, the camera records 5-6 stops, and the monitor displays 4 stops. Something has to be done to attempt to regain those 6 lost stops, ESPECIALLY with DSLRs, and their noisy shadows.

Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 22):
It is fraudulent manipulation

Whoa!!! FRAUD?

Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 22):
When you take one photograph, and layer it with other photographs, it no longer remains a photograph in the sense of the word, but becomes a composition.

Is this a photograph? http://newton-i.usefilm.com/images/4/1/9/9/4199/1075070-Large.jpg
 
Stealthz
Posts: 5549
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 11:43 am

RE: HDR Images (with Visible Movement) Allowed?

Mon Jul 03, 2006 11:43 pm

OK you anti-manipulation "purists" merging several images is out by your rules, how about the multiprocessing of a single RAW image and layering and masking to acheive the same result?

The method described by Jeroen in reply 11, I bet it has been used in more photographs in this db than you would care to admit and I challenge you to identify them!

[Edited 2006-07-03 16:44:59]
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
 
timdegroot
Posts: 3258
Joined: Wed Apr 24, 2002 10:37 pm

RE: HDR Images (with Visible Movement) Allowed?

Mon Jul 03, 2006 11:49 pm

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 27):

If done well this is allowed as far as I know. This will lead to an editing rejection if not done properly though, something we see more and more.

Tim
Alderman Exit
 
ChrisH
Posts: 1120
Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2004 4:25 am

RE: HDR Images (with Visible Movement) Allowed?

Tue Jul 04, 2006 12:01 am

Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 22):
When you take one photograph, and layer it with other photographs, it no longer remains a photograph in the sense of the word, but becomes a composition.

No, the word would be composite. All photographs are compositions.

Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 22):
It is fraudulent manipulation, and it is a cut & paste job from two different pictures

No, nothings been cut out, nothings been pasted in. Two exposures of the same scene have been blended. Everythings where it was in the second shot, only brighter or darker exposed.

Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 22):
Just because you can't physically see the lines for where the different exposure layers meet, this doesn't mean it's any more acceptable.

Of course it does. (Perhaps not on a.net with it's current ruleset, they change all the time though).
what seems to be the officer, problem?
 
TS
Posts: 717
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2003 9:19 pm

RE: HDR Images (with Visible Movement) Allowed?

Tue Jul 04, 2006 1:57 am

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 27):
OK you anti-manipulation "purists" merging several images is out by your rules, how about the multiprocessing of a single RAW image and layering and masking to acheive the same result?

Yes, I am a purist, & all I do with my photos is levels, resizing, sharpening & maybe resizing. Nothing else. I'm not against this technique per se, but it's good to know that a.net has clear rules & won't accept HDR photos.

Quoting INNflight (Reply 19):
I bet you've already seen hundreds of HDR photos in magazines or contests and didn't notice as thousands of professionals use this technique. it's not a matter of delivering the result in one shot, it's a matter of having the best photo in the end.

There are companies where you would put your job in jeopardy if you would merge different photos into one.

Thomas
Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
 
IngemarE
Posts: 281
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 4:46 pm

RE: HDR Images (with Visible Movement) Allowed?

Tue Jul 04, 2006 2:59 am

Quoting TS (Reply 30):
There are companies where you would put your job in jeopardy if you would merge different photos into one.

...as there are jobs where your job would be in jeopardy if you didn't!

You're not altering the picture "per se", but rather getting the most out of it.
It's not like you're moving stuff around in the picture, right?
So, what is it that is so horrible about that!?
In thrust I trust.
 
User avatar
JeffM
Posts: 7569
Joined: Sat May 07, 2005 3:32 am

RE: HDR Images (with Visible Movement) Allowed?

Tue Jul 04, 2006 3:09 am

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 27):
The method described by Jeroen in reply 11, I bet it has been used in more photographs in this db than you would care to admit and I challenge you to identify them!

I would bet a lot of money on that. HDR methodology is nothing new, the same techniques (though applied in a different manner) have been used in film for many, many years.
 
KFLLCFII
Posts: 3185
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 7:08 am

RE: HDR Images (with Visible Movement) Allowed?

Tue Jul 04, 2006 4:38 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 26):
Clearly, that rule cannot be read too literally. If you do not digitally manipulate your shot, it will NOT be accepted here.

It's silly to infer that my point attempts to hold all forms of manipulation in contempt; You and I both know this is about what forms of manipulation are acceptable here, and which ones aren't. In this case, HDR happens to fall under the "non-acceptable" category.

Quoting D L X (Reply 26):
Whoa!!! FRAUD?

In the context of A.net, yes, it's fraud. You're taking two or more pictures, and combining them as one. It's as simple as that, and it's simply not allowed.

Quoting D L X (Reply 26):
Is this a photograph?

If it had been edited using the above method, then no, it's not a true photograph in the sense of the word (whether it's here, in a magazine, or in a book). Sure, it looks nice, but it's still a combination of more than one image (regardless of the fact that it's the same exact scene). It's not necessarily "right" or "wrong" to do it (unless, of course, the rules of a certain website do not permit it  Wink ), but nevertheless, the distinction between a true "photograph", and a "virtual reality" image, still exists.

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 27):
OK you anti-manipulation "purists" merging several images is out by your rules

First of all, it's not by my rules  Wink . Everything I've brought to the table, with regard to acceptable photography practices, has been in the context of this website. If HDR is acceptable elsewhere, then more power to you there  thumbsup 

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 27):
how about the multiprocessing of a single RAW image and layering and masking to acheive the same result?

It still has the same net result as HDR: Layering different images with varying "exposure" conditions in order to recreate the scene.

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 27):
I bet it has been used in more photographs in this db than you would care to admit and I challenge you to identify them!

Whether or not I can identify them is irrelevant; It's still a form of cheating to attain the desired result.

Quoting ChrisH (Reply 29):
Everythings where it was in the second shot, only brighter or darker exposed.

If, say in a cockpit shot, you take one image at the proper exposure for the panel (while overexposing the ramp), and then take another image at the proper exposure for the ramp (while underexposing the panel), and you blend the two images together, you have just in effect (through the use of varying exposure times) selected what you want to appear where.

You can spin it around however you want, and you can label it whatever the hell you want, but that, my friend, is nothing but a cut & paste job.

Quoting ChrisH (Reply 29):

Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 22):
Just because you can't physically see the lines for where the different exposure layers meet, this doesn't mean it's any more acceptable.

Of course it does. (Perhaps not on a.net with it's current ruleset

Bingo...That's all I was referring to. Not the other aviation photo site, nor any of the other sites. Just because you can't physically see the lines for where the different exposure layers meet, this doesn't mean it's any more acceptable on A.net.
"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
 
ChrisH
Posts: 1120
Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2004 4:25 am

RE: HDR Images (with Visible Movement) Allowed?

Tue Jul 04, 2006 6:24 am

Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 33):
You can spin it around however you want, and you can label it whatever the hell you want, but that, my friend, is nothing but a cut & paste job.

Incorrect. Exposing the panel correctly and then taking a ramp shot from a different airport and pasting into the window. That is a cut&paste job.

Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 33):
It still has the same net result as HDR: Layering different images with varying "exposure" conditions in order to recreate the scene.

People used grey gradient filters for this before (and still do) to tone down skies, I've seen them shots in Nat. Geographic, coloured filters too. This is a new way to do it during this decade, until new sensor technology comes.

Nothing is ever really new...

A long exposure, where the sky is black to they naked eye, but after 30 secs exposure it is a deep blue... I guess we should ban those shots too... etc etc.
what seems to be the officer, problem?
 
jhribar
Posts: 113
Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2005 4:31 am

RE: HDR Images (with Visible Movement) Allowed?

Tue Jul 04, 2006 6:35 am

Quoting EDDL (Reply 25):
The best HDR images are the ones where you can't see the technique that has been used to deliver the result. When it's professionally done, no one will notice.

absolutely right.....

I was wondering about using layer masks on for example curves as well. Isn't locally applying a (multiple) curve to a picture the same as a multi-process in RAW (except for the final quality of course, where RAW will perform better with large corrections)?

Everybody knows selective sharpening, selective curves, selective levels, etc.....multiple RAW overlays (from the same singe file!) are not different from this.

rgds,

Jeroen
AirTeamImages
 
User avatar
JeffM
Posts: 7569
Joined: Sat May 07, 2005 3:32 am

RE: HDR Images (with Visible Movement) Allowed?

Tue Jul 04, 2006 7:16 am

Quoting Jhribar (Reply 35):
I was wondering about using layer masks on for example curves as well.

Absolutely. I do it all the time, and will continue to. The layer mask works for almost any type correction you need to apply.

Quoting Jhribar (Reply 35):
Everybody knows selective sharpening, selective curves, selective levels, etc.....multiple RAW overlays (from the same singe file!) are not different from this.

Bingo. Couldn't say it any better.
 
User avatar
jumbojim747
Posts: 2426
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 8:05 pm

RE: HDR Images (with Visible Movement) Allowed?

Tue Jul 04, 2006 7:58 am

Quoting Jhribar (Reply 35):
Everybody knows selective sharpening, selective curves, selective levels, etc.....multiple RAW overlays (from the same singe file!) are not different from this.

I think using the same file in your quote and using a completely different picture file to merge with another file but same scene as in this discussion is completely different.
Cheers
On a wing and a prayer
 
KFLLCFII
Posts: 3185
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 7:08 am

RE: HDR Images (with Visible Movement) Allowed?

Tue Jul 04, 2006 8:41 am

Quoting ChrisH (Reply 34):
Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 33):
It still has the same net result as HDR: Layering different images with varying "exposure" conditions in order to recreate the scene.

People used grey gradient filters for this before (and still do) to tone down skies, I've seen them shots in Nat. Geographic, coloured filters too. This is a new way to do it during this decade, until new sensor technology comes.

Absolutely. And for the umpteenth time, this discussion (and my reply you quoted) isn't about what is or is not considered an acceptable practice throughout the entire photography field; It's about what is acceptable here. Let's see how many more times I have to stress that point...  Yeah sure

Quoting ChrisH (Reply 34):
A long exposure, where the sky is black to they naked eye, but after 30 secs exposure it is a deep blue... I guess we should ban those shots too... etc etc.

Enjoy putting words in my mouth?

Second false (yet silly) inference of the thread...  Yeah sure

If that's the natural phenomenon you get when you depress the shutter, and said phenomenon hasn't been illegally manipulated (according to A.net rules) in the finished product, then no one here will even raise an eyebrow.  Wink
"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
 
Stealthz
Posts: 5549
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 11:43 am

RE: HDR Images (with Visible Movement) Allowed?

Tue Jul 04, 2006 8:55 am

KFLLCFII,
This may seem a digression but I am just trying to get a feel for motivation here.

If you used a film camera and loaded it with B&W film and shot a nice moody vintage a/c scene, that would be OK right?
Would it be OK to set your Digital Camera to B&W mode and shoot the same scene? My guess is that would be OK as well,let me know if you disagree.
Then would it be OK to take that full colour image from your camera and then convert to a wonderfully fully toned B&W image using PS or similar editing applications?
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
 
philhyde
Posts: 574
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2003 2:16 am

RE: HDR Images (with Visible Movement) Allowed?

Tue Jul 04, 2006 9:43 am

Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 33):
Quoting D L X (Reply 26):
Whoa!!! FRAUD?

In the context of A.net, yes, it's fraud. You're taking two or more pictures, and combining them as one. It's as simple as that, and it's simply not allowed.

It is ludicrous to call this fraud, especially within the context of this question and A.net. It is not being presented as "what can I get away with", but rather is it permissible to present it openly as HDR. No cheating, no deception, no trickery.

[Edited 2006-07-04 02:58:17]
Canon junkie - Aviation Nut
 
DLKAPA
Posts: 7962
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2003 10:37 am

RE: HDR Images (with Visible Movement) Allowed?

Tue Jul 04, 2006 9:54 am

I've been starting to dabble with HDRI recently, It's quite fun. Here's some examples:

http://rockymountainavphotos.com/sir...e.com/imagehtmls/makeout_cove.html

http://rockymountainavphotos.com/sir...agehtmls/sunsets_from_the_pad.html

http://rockymountainavphotos.com/sir...ehtmls/suburban_summer_storms.html

Personally, I would love to have the chance to try this technique on a.net.
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
D L X
Posts: 11701
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

RE: HDR Images (with Visible Movement) Allowed?

Tue Jul 04, 2006 10:04 am

Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 33):
It's silly to infer that my point attempts to hold all forms of manipulation in contempt;

I didn't make that inference. I said that that rule cannot be read so hard and fast. Since clearly you have to "break" that rule to get a shot accepted, there must be some sort of reason, an exception, that a given practice is considered okay. What's the reason here that HDR is not?

Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 33):
You and I both know this is about what forms of manipulation are acceptable here, and which ones aren't. In this case, HDR happens to fall under the "non-acceptable" category.

Agreed that this question is about what is acceptable (see above), but to give the conclusory statement "HDR happens to fall under the 'non-acceptable' category" seems capricious and arbitrary without a reason why.

This question isn't like the cloning debate. Those methods take a more accurate representation and falsify them. HDR shots take a less accurate representation and make them more accurate - turning a 6 stop picture into the more realistic 10 stop scene. Ansel Adams would be proud to see this technology finally within our reach.

Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 33):
In the context of A.net, yes, it's fraud. You're taking two or more pictures, and combining them as one. It's as simple as that, and it's simply not allowed.

It is fraud no more than adjusting curves is. That picture doesn't look that way in real life... but it wouldn't get accepted if you didn't alter the curves. HDR gives you more true to life photos.

Tim, et al, I think you should reconsider this. I don't think it's a good idea to issue a blanket ban an editing technique.
 
KFLLCFII
Posts: 3185
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 7:08 am

RE: HDR Images (with Visible Movement) Allowed?

Tue Jul 04, 2006 10:18 am

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 39):

You're trying to get a feel for motivation. Alright then, let me repeat myself for the umpteenth + 1 time:

This discussion (and my motivation) isn't about what is or is not generally accepted as "OK", but what is considered acceptable to A.net. If the shot hasn't been generated using illegal techniques (according to A.net rules) in the finished product, then no one here will even raise an eyebrow, including myself.

Are any or a combination of those techniques considered illegal here? Obviously, that's not my decision, as it's not my site. But I am glad to see the site taking a proactive approach in ensuring uploaded photos are as authentic as possible, by limiting / banning those techniques it deems would cross the "acceptible manipulation" line for the sake of authenticity.

Quoting Philhyde (Reply 40):
It is not being presented as "what can I get away with", but rather is it permissible to present it openly as HDR.

I agree that in the two presented photos, yes, it is obviously being displayed as HDR due to the differing positions of certain objects in the scene. But virtually this entire discussion had nothing to do with using HDR to present apparent movement. Rather, most of the proponents here are presenting it as a method to compensate for the need for varying exposure times in a single shot while not displaying any apparent movement. In that case, they would be attempting to "see what they can get away with" by presenting more than one image as a single "photograph". Take a closer look through the proponents' previous posts, and you'll see that this is exactly the case.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see the possibilities that HDR has to offer; I find it to be an interesting technique, and I'd love to experiment with it. But it has its place, and the A.net database isn't it. Maybe an "artistic" section really would be a good thing to have here...
"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
 
Stealthz
Posts: 5549
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 11:43 am

RE: HDR Images (with Visible Movement) Allowed?

Tue Jul 04, 2006 10:27 am

Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 43):
This discussion (and my motivation) isn't about what is or is not generally accepted as "OK", but what is considered acceptable to A.net.

OK, maybe I was not clear. Within the context of A.net which of those B&W techniques do you find acceptable or not?

Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 43):
it is obviously being displayed as HDR due to the differing positions of certain objects in the scene. But virtually this entire discussion had nothing to do with using HDR to present apparent movement.

Is it just me, I do not consider these photos as an example of the HDR technique although some of the process is similar, they are merely a traditional multiple exposure with perhaps, some new processing techniques
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
 
KFLLCFII
Posts: 3185
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 7:08 am

RE: HDR Images (with Visible Movement) Allowed?

Tue Jul 04, 2006 11:23 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 42):
Since clearly you have to "break" that rule to get a shot accepted, there must be some sort of reason, an exception, that a given practice is considered okay.

You're not "breaking" that rule to get a shot accepted if you're not exceeding the context of the terms used therein. Let's take a look at it again:

Can I send in digitally enhanced/composite photos?
No, Airliners.net does not accept photos that have been altered in any way.


If the context of the term "digitally enhanced", as defined by A.net, does not include rotating, adjusting levels, removing dust spots, and everything else deemed by A.net to not fall under the "digitally enhanced" category, then you haven't "broken" the rule.

Quoting D L X (Reply 42):
but to give the conclusory statement "HDR happens to fall under the 'non-acceptable' category" seems capricious and arbitrary without a reason why.

It's a "composite photo", and it's a form of cheating to attain the desired result (which is why it's specifically banned in the rule above, and reinforced by both a screener and a database editor). I'm not sure how much more clearer that can be...

Quoting D L X (Reply 42):
HDR shots take a less accurate representation and make them more accurate - turning a 6 stop picture into the more realistic 10 stop scene.

I realize it's all for a positive outcome. However, there's a point where you're no longer a "photographer", but an "artist".

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 44):
OK, maybe I was not clear. Within the context of A.net which of those B&W techniques do you find acceptable or not?

Maybe I wasn't clear either:

It's not up to me to make that distinction. If Johan and the crew find it acceptable to upload shots taken by a digital camera in B & W mode, or to upload B & W shots that were originally taken in full-color, then that's their perogative...as is the realm of HDR.
"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
 
Stealthz
Posts: 5549
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 11:43 am

RE: HDR Images (with Visible Movement) Allowed?

Tue Jul 04, 2006 11:33 am

Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 45):
It's not up to me to make that distinction

OK,
You seem pretty keen to make those distinctions earlier in th trhead but no longer prepared to. Fine
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
 
D L X
Posts: 11701
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

RE: HDR Images (with Visible Movement) Allowed?

Tue Jul 04, 2006 12:35 pm

Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 45):
and it's a form of cheating

whatever.

Some people think using a DSLR is cheating. Some people think not developing your own film is cheating.
 
User avatar
ThierryD
Crew
Posts: 2029
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2005 6:58 pm

RE: HDR Images (with Visible Movement) Allowed?

Sun Jul 09, 2006 9:37 pm

Speaking of compositions I just found a nice example here on A.net from the good old times  Smile


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © George Polfliet



Thierry
"Go ahead...make my day"
 
User avatar
Kukkudrill
Posts: 1043
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2004 10:11 pm

RE: HDR Images (with Visible Movement) Allowed?

Sun Jul 09, 2006 10:06 pm

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 39):
Then would it be OK to take that full colour image from your camera and then convert to a wonderfully fully toned B&W image using PS or similar editing applications?

To give a straightforward answer to a straightforward question, my understanding is yes a.net allows this. But going further, e.g. adding a sepia tint, would not be allowed.
Make the most of the available light ... a lesson of photography that applies to life

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 7 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos