LH526
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Photo Usage From Dead Or Unreachable Photographers

Sat Jul 08, 2006 8:33 pm

Hi,

sorry to bring up this topic, but is there a formula in how to handly photo usage rights from photographers who are either dead or not reachable via email.

It is not very sensible to aks such a thing, but usually the family get's the rights on the photos, so I doubt they will check on airliners.net ... so what would be appropriate in such a situation?

What abut photographers whose inbox is full causing emails to bounce back? there's nothing more than wait I can do, right?

thanks a lot & best regards

Mario
LH526
Trittst im Morgenrot daher, seh ich dich im Strahlenmeer ...
 
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ThierryD
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RE: Photo Usage From Dead Or Unreachable Photographers

Sat Jul 08, 2006 8:48 pm

It depends on how much info you have about the photographer; you could still try to find out his home address and send a letter to him (his family); yes letters still work even in these times of electronic mail  Wink
If the photographer has a website there may also be hints as to where to contact him.
Anyway, you should document all attempts to reach him and if everything fails and you really want that photographer's photos, then use them and if some claims come in the future regarding copyrights Í'm sure you can work something out.

Thierry
"Go ahead...make my day"
 
maiznblu_757
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RE: Photo Usage From Dead Or Unreachable Photographers

Sat Jul 08, 2006 9:12 pm

Quoting ThierryD (Reply 1):
if everything fails and you really want that photographer's photos, then use them and if some claims come in the future regarding copyrights Í'm sure you can work something out.

Somehow I disagree with that statement.
 
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ThierryD
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RE: Photo Usage From Dead Or Unreachable Photographers

Sat Jul 08, 2006 9:41 pm

Quoting Maiznblu_757 (Reply 2):
Quoting ThierryD (Reply 1):
if everything fails and you really want that photographer's photos, then use them and if some claims come in the future regarding copyrights Í'm sure you can work something out.

Somehow I disagree with that statement.

In what regard, Chad?

I see the issue like if you had found some famous (and dead) artist's painting and want to show it to an audience; would you refrain from doing so only because you are unable to reach him or one of his relatives?

Thierry
"Go ahead...make my day"
 
INNflight
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RE: Photo Usage From Dead Or Unreachable Photographers

Sun Jul 09, 2006 3:01 am

Quoting ThierryD (Reply 1):
if everything fails and you really want that photographer's photos, then use them and if some claims come in the future regarding copyrights Í'm sure you can work something out.

Sounds like theft to me. You use them and in case somebody comes by and asks for compensation you want to work something out, though if no one ever gets in touch with you regarding the rights you just keep using them.

A 100% theft I'd say.

If you can't get in touch with the family or a responsible person, don't touch the photos and find other material.

F.

edit: typo

[Edited 2006-07-08 20:02:48]
Jet Visuals
 
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ThierryD
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RE: Photo Usage From Dead Or Unreachable Photographers

Sun Jul 09, 2006 3:30 am

Quoting INNflight (Reply 4):
Sounds like theft to me. You use them and in case somebody comes by and asks for compensation you want to work something out, though if no one ever gets in touch with you regarding the rights you just keep using them.

A 100% theft I'd say.

If you can't get in touch with the family or a responsible person, don't touch the photos and find other material

I agree it's a bordercase here and if the picture is a common subject in a normal situation it surely wouldn't be worth the trouble but if the picture is the only existing one displaying for instance the Mryia landing in SXM would you still only see it as theft if you displayed the picture (of course the copyright info would always be included!!).

and not to forget: we are talking here about a picture from A.net so the author would have been interested in a public audience...

Thierry

[Edited 2006-07-08 20:35:37]

[Edited 2006-07-08 20:36:09]
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TS
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RE: Photo Usage From Dead Or Unreachable Photographers

Sun Jul 09, 2006 3:44 am

Quoting ThierryD (Reply 1):
Anyway, you should document all attempts to reach him and if everything fails and you really want that photographer's photos, then use them and if some claims come in the future regarding copyrights Í'm sure you can work something out.

Not a good idea, at least for you. You still use the photo without permission, & if the photo was mine & I still alive I'd charge at least double the regular fee--whether you tried to contact me or not.

Thomas
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ThierryD
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RE: Photo Usage From Dead Or Unreachable Photographers

Sun Jul 09, 2006 4:57 am

Quoting TS (Reply 6):
Not a good idea, at least for you. You still use the photo without permission, & if the photo was mine & I still alive I'd charge at least double the regular fee--whether you tried to contact me or not.

Thanks for the input Thomas cause I only now notice that we didn't clarify what kind of useage we're talking about.
To be clear: I was only thinking in terms of non-commercial use!

Thierry
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JeffM
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RE: Photo Usage From Dead Or Unreachable Photographers

Sun Jul 09, 2006 10:56 am

Quoting TS (Reply 6):
if the photo was mine & I still alive I'd charge at least double the regular fee--whether you tried to contact me or not.

It doesn't work that way in the U.S., the court decides compensation based on previous sales in something like that, or by loss of potential income, not the copyright owner. He would however most likely get stuck paying for your court fees as well.

Best not to use the image if you can't get written permission.
 
chrisair
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RE: Photo Usage From Dead Or Unreachable Photographers

Sun Jul 09, 2006 5:02 pm

Quoting ThierryD (Reply 5):
I agree it's a bordercase here and if the picture is a common subject in a normal situation it surely wouldn't be worth the trouble but if the picture is the only existing one displaying for instance the Mryia landing in SXM would you still only see it as theft if you displayed the picture (of course the copyright info would always be included!!).

No. It's not a border case. It's theft. It doesn't matter if it's a photo of the Wright Flyer in Kitty Hawk or the United DC-10 doing cartwheels down the runway in Sioux City or a Southwest 737 landing in Phoenix. It's theft.

Using your logic, if I were to go to the Beverly Hills Ferrari dealership, and take a Ferrari it would be OK? (The guy who created the Ferrari is dead, you most likely wouldn't be able to get in contact with his family.)

C'mon. You've got to be joking. It's okay to use the photo if you can't get in touch with someone. That's the best joke on the site!

The answer to the original question is simple: If you can't get in touch with someone, move along. If it's the only one you can find, look harder. If you still can't find anyone, deal with it. It's not hard to find someone, or their next of kin.
 
Gary2880
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RE: Photo Usage From Dead Or Unreachable Photographers

Sun Jul 09, 2006 5:20 pm

Quoting Chrisair (Reply 9):
It doesn't matter if it's a photo of the Wright Flyer in Kitty Hawk

makes me think. as i used a photograph of the wright flyer and tonnes of other copyrighted material in college for my project. but as it was for academic purposes we were free from most problems.

my question. with music, memory is a bit scratchy as to the exact number of years, i believe its 50 or 70, anyway 50 or 70 years after a musician has died the piece of music becomes free of copyright and can be used for free by anyone.

just wondering if anything like this was such with photo's or does copyright just pass from generation to generation to generation??
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chrisair
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RE: Photo Usage From Dead Or Unreachable Photographers

Sun Jul 09, 2006 6:07 pm

Quoting Gary2880 (Reply 10):
memory is a bit scratchy as to the exact number of years, i believe its 50 or 70, anyway 50 or 70 years after a musician has died the piece of music becomes free of copyright and can be used for free by anyone.

just wondering if anything like this was such with photo's or does copyright just pass from generation to generation to generation??

Not sure what it is elsewhere in the world, but in the U.S., material that was created/registered with the Copyright office after 1977 (or 1974, can't recall which) has a lifetime copyright. Prior to that copyrights expired after a certian period of time.

As for the use of copyrighted material for academic purposes, that's generally accepted as legal, as long as the person using it for academic purposes doesn't sell the copyrighted image inside his work. With that being said, it's always a nice touch to ask first...even for academic work.
 
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ThierryD
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RE: Photo Usage From Dead Or Unreachable Photographers

Sun Jul 09, 2006 6:42 pm

Quoting Chrisair (Reply 9):
Using your logic, if I were to go to the Beverly Hills Ferrari dealership, and take a Ferrari it would be OK? (The guy who created the Ferrari is dead, you most likely wouldn't be able to get in contact with his family.)

That's not my logic, Chris! The Ferrari you're talking about would rightfully belong to the dealer you're going to and not to Enzo Ferrari or one of his relatives even if his name is on the car.

But I guess I'll have to explain myself completely here as some people get hold of the wrong end of the stick here.

So, according Mario's initial question we are talking about a picture that was uploaded to Airliners.net and thus made public.
And image looking like this one:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Thierry Deutsch


with Airliners.net copyright bar included.

Now if despite the contact info given on A.net I'm not reachable or if I dare to die before removing my pictures from A.net and someone would like to use that image with my permission that person would have a problem.
I'm always talking non-comercial use here!

Personally I wouldn't see a problem if the mentionned guy would use my picture on his website, in his aeroclub brochure, make a poster of it or whatever non-commercial use comes into mind as long as he/she uses the picture as presented on A.net without any alteration.
I mean presenting pictures to a great public that's why one would upload to A.net in the first place, no!?
If I didn't want other people to see my images, maybe I should just leave them rot on my private harddrive until I die and the harddrive is being bunged into the bin by my relatives.  crackup 

Thierry
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