Alex22
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Picture Of Accident... Lack Of Respect?

Mon Sep 11, 2006 9:05 pm

Hello all,

I've just seen the top picture of yesterday...

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1107079/L/

This picture of a fatal accident has been online only a few hours after it happened, so it means priority screening...
I have to say that I'm really shocked that A.net puts this picture online so fast. Can you imagine that probably many friends or family member of that pilot hadn't heard about this tragedy but the picture was already online...???

I want to know what you guys think about it because this is for me exactly the kind of attitude I don't wanna see among us photographers. I always wonder what I would do if I happen to witness an accident... One thing is sure I would never post the picture a few hours after the accident. And most probably I'll keep them for my personal collection.
Sorry, Alan, it's not a personal attack as I don't know you but I'd like to know what other photographers think about it and I'd like to have someone from A.net telling me why this pic got accepted just a few hours after the accident which is for me a big lack of respect !

Cheers,

Alex
 
f4wso
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RE: Picture Of Accident... Lack Of Respect?

Mon Sep 11, 2006 9:35 pm

I don't think there was any disrespects intended. It was posted for the newsworthyness just as it showed up quickly on on the local television stations. When a tragedy happens at a public event, it is impossible to keep it off of any media be it internet, print, or video. I commend Airliners.net for having the priority screening. It is one of the reasons this is a quality site.

Gary
Cottage Grove, MN, USA
Seeking an honest week's pay for an honest day's work
 
McG1967
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RE: Picture Of Accident... Lack Of Respect?

Mon Sep 11, 2006 9:56 pm

If a photographer from one of the news picture agencies like Getty Images had taken this pic it would have been on the news wires available for all written and internet press to use for a fee within a short period of the event occurring.
 
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eksath
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RE: Picture Of Accident... Lack Of Respect?

Mon Sep 11, 2006 10:23 pm

There is nothing wrong with the shot. It is of journalistic value. He and Airliners.net is doing nothing different than any news media. The shame is that the photographer is not going to be reimbursed for his image.

The lack of respect here is you starting this thread slamming him and airliners.net for their legitimate journalistic contribution to the aviation community. Grow up, buddy!
World Wide Aerospace Photography
 
QANTAS077
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RE: Picture Of Accident... Lack Of Respect?

Mon Sep 11, 2006 10:52 pm

Quoting Eksath (Reply 3):
The lack of respect here is you starting this thread slamming him and airliners.net for their legitimate journalistic contribution to the aviation community. Grow up, buddy!

tell that to the pilots family...he's not insulting anyone, he asked for opinions and gave his...aswell as stating it wasn't personal..you just disrespected the thread with your pathetic reply!

i know working at NASA is a high pressure job...but don't hit "enter" without reading the initial post properly.

Quoting Eksath (Reply 3):
It is of journalistic value.

this isn't a newspaper or journalism site..it's a place for voyeurs and hobbyists.
 
mrk25
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RE: Picture Of Accident... Lack Of Respect?

Mon Sep 11, 2006 10:54 pm

Quoting Eksath (Reply 3):
The shame is that the photographer is not going to be reimbursed for his image.

I can't believe I just read that, that's sad.
 
dacman
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RE: Picture Of Accident... Lack Of Respect?

Mon Sep 11, 2006 10:55 pm

Better send this note to CNN and FOX, it would be a dogfight to see who could report on it first.

Michael
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dendrobatid
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RE: Picture Of Accident... Lack Of Respect?

Mon Sep 11, 2006 10:58 pm

Quoting Alex22 (Thread starter):
This picture of a fatal accident has been online only a few hours after it happened, so it means priority screening...
I have to say that I'm really shocked that A.net puts this picture online so fast. Can you imagine that probably many friends or family member of that pilot hadn't heard about this tragedy but the picture was already online...???

This is a real ethical dilemma, one that would not bother any journalist. It is news and journalists have a saying that old news is no news (a daughter is a journalist). If it had been my photo I would also have uploaded it, uploaded it with a heavy heart too though.

I can give a personal example of what the professional press would do.
As a Police Officer I was at the Police Station when a message came through of a plane crash and one of those killed was a very close friend, with one of the pilots well known to me. After I had composed myself I decided that I was the best person to tell the parents of my friend, a horrible, horrible task. Whilst I was at their house telling my friend's Father (his Mother was out) the phone rang and it was the Wife of the pilot. She had received a call from the Press asking for a comment about her husband's death. She replied that he was not dead - the Press had found her before the Police in another area had.

A photo on the internet is far less likely to alert the family of the deceased than a phone call from the local press. The date of this thread is rather ironic too. Remember five years ago today ? Could any of us understand the magnitude of what happened that day without those images

I would not put it quite as bluntly as Eksath, though the sentiments are the same. Death is an inevitable consequence of life, something we have to accept. That shot was not popular for no reason and I am certain that very few viewers did not feel sorrow.

Mick Bajcar
 
Alex22
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RE: Picture Of Accident... Lack Of Respect?

Mon Sep 11, 2006 11:14 pm

Mick,
Thank you for your answer, I see your point but...
For me A.net is not and should never be a news agency. And the difference is huge. If Allan sent his pic to news agencies that's ok. But we are, most of us, not professional and we're taking picture as an hobby. And please it's only a small accident, something that happens all the time. Newsworthiness ?? No it's not.

Quoting Eksath (Reply 3):
The lack of respect here is you starting this thread slamming him and airliners.net for their legitimate journalistic contribution to the aviation community. Grow up, buddy!

Now this is mature !!!

Quoting Eksath (Reply 3):
The shame is that the photographer is not going to be reimbursed for his image.


Are you serious ??? if yes it's really sad...

Alex
 
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RE: Picture Of Accident... Lack Of Respect?

Mon Sep 11, 2006 11:17 pm

How is a photo on Anet any different from the video showed on the news? The same people that you claim would be upset by the Anet photo are watching VIDEO of it all over television.
Phil Derner Jr.
 
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acontador
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RE: Picture Of Accident... Lack Of Respect?

Mon Sep 11, 2006 11:22 pm

Reading through this thread, I wonder what the real value of this picture is for A.net? The aircrafts involved are too far away (and very blurry), so the only "value" is the accident by itself.
Sorry guys, but I tend to agree with Alex that this picture (being of

Quoting Eksath (Reply 3):
of journalistic value

as Eksath says) was in my opinion posted on the wrong site at the wrong time, and the crew should have noticed that - no disrespect to anybodies opinion to the contrary.
Just sit back, relax and have a glass of Merlot...enjoy your life!
 
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eksath
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RE: Picture Of Accident... Lack Of Respect?

Tue Sep 12, 2006 12:16 am

Quoting Dendrobatid (Reply 7):
I would not put it quite as bluntly as Eksath, though the sentiments are the same. Death is an inevitable consequence of life, something we have to accept. That shot was not popular for no reason and I am certain that very few viewers did not feel sorrow.

Perhaps ..Mick put it better than I.

Speaking as someone with a great deal of time in aviation including the pilot seat, I can tell of numerous friends who have been lost or injured. These include combat and civilian loses. Also, I have had my share of white knuckle experiences from the left seat,right seat and the backseat. So when i speak, i do so as a person who has been there.

Look guys..i am not interested in a pissing contest but i think you guys need to rethink what the Internet means and what Airliners.net represents now.

This is what i mean:
1) the Internet is no longer a cosy little folksy utopian place to share happy news. Internet = Life (the good,bad and the ugly)

2) Airliners.net is no longer only (as one person put it) a-"..a place for voyeurs and hobbyists". If you have looked at the quality of the shots and the effort put in by her photographers, it easily surpasses mainstream media when it comes to photographically documenting aviation. There is content,audience and evolution by innovation here. If it hasnt happened to you, ask around the photographers here how many times they have been approached my traditional media for use/purchase of their pics.

I stand by my original statement.

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 4):
i know working at NASA is a high pressure job...but don't hit "enter" without reading the initial post properly.

..and I have no idea where this fits into the purpose of the thread. So I am left  confused  espeically since I am NOT employed by NASA. For the record most Space Program workers are employed by private contractors.
World Wide Aerospace Photography
 
aero145
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RE: Picture Of Accident... Lack Of Respect?

Tue Sep 12, 2006 12:25 am

Quoting Acontador (Reply 10):
Reading through this thread, I wonder what the real value of this picture is for A.net? The aircrafts involved are too far away (and very blurry), so the only "value" is the accident by itself.
Sorry guys, but I tend to agree with Alex that this picture (being of

Quoting Eksath (Reply 3):of journalistic value
as Eksath says) was in my opinion posted on the wrong site at the wrong time, and the crew should have noticed that - no disrespect to anybodies opinion to the contrary.

I agree with this, and the thread starter.

I'm not saying this is a bad photo, bot IMO it's not a photo that belongs here on A.net:

The people are in focus.
What you see are 3 Extra 300's, one in the sea, one just splashed, and one going to be splashed, and one man in a parachute - everything out of focus.

This is a fine photo for the newspaper/press/news agency, but as I said, not for A.net.

If people find that I'm being rude to the photographer (which actually is amazing to have photographed instead of gasping and looking with his eyes, not into a lens), please delete my post.

R.I.P. Extra 300 pilots.  tombstone 


Aero145
 
Alex22
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RE: Picture Of Accident... Lack Of Respect?

Tue Sep 12, 2006 12:25 am

Quoting Eksath (Reply 11):
Airliners.net is no longer only (as one person put it) a-"..a place for voyeurs and hobbyists". If you have looked at the quality of the shots and the effort put in by her photographers

Yes I agree but where is the quality on that particular shot ?

Quoting Eksath (Reply 11):
If it hasnt happened to you, ask around the photographers here how many times they have been approached my traditional media for use/purchase of their pics.

Happened to me quiet a few times but also got many pics stollen from the "traditionnal" media...

Quoting Dendrobatid (Reply 7):
That shot was not popular for no reason and I am certain that very few viewers did not feel sorrow.

Not so sure when you read some of the comments under that shot.... (The pilot is flying! Excellent shot!!! been my "favorite"... Sad )

Anyway... I just was looking for some thoughts so thank you all for your answers.
 
brianw999
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RE: Picture Of Accident... Lack Of Respect?

Tue Sep 12, 2006 2:25 am

Many differing opinions in answer to the original well phrased and polite post......


......except for

Quoting Eksath (Reply 3):
The lack of respect here is you starting this thread slamming him and airliners.net for their legitimate journalistic contribution to the aviation community. Grow up, buddy!

The following appears in the reply window......No hostile language or criticizing of others......

Try engaging brain before hitting the "Post the message" button.

Oh, and for the record. My personal stance on this is that such a picture involving a fatality is not for Anet. It should have gone to the newsagency arena if the photographer felt a need to post anywhere.
As a paramedic I tend not to have much respect for the press anyway. They have a bad habit of not letting the truth or peoples feelings get in the way of a good story.

[Edited 2006-09-11 19:37:19]
 
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ThierryD
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RE: Picture Of Accident... Lack Of Respect?

Tue Sep 12, 2006 2:26 am

Quoting Alex22 (Thread starter):
Can you imagine that probably many friends or family member of that pilot hadn't heard about this tragedy but the picture was already online...???

Yep, a very unpleasant thought...!

Quoting McG1967 (Reply 2):
If a photographer from one of the news picture agencies like Getty Images had taken this pic it would have been on the news wires available for all written and internet press to use for a fee within a short period of the event occurring.

Yeah, because some people would just about publish anything only to earn some bucks and thus profiting from the tragedy of others! That is a very poor attitude!

Quoting F4wso (Reply 1):
When a tragedy happens at a public event, it is impossible to keep it off of any media be it internet, print, or video.



Quoting Eksath (Reply 3):
He and Airliners.net is doing nothing different than any news media.

That does not mean we have to compete with those media trying to be the first to publish any news!

Quoting Eksath (Reply 3):
It is of journalistic value.

Sure if you're a gossip fan!  Yeah sure

Quoting Dendrobatid (Reply 7):
That shot was not popular for no reason and I am certain that very few viewers did not feel sorrow.

Well, Mick as a former Police Officer you certainly also know that people are always fascinated by the tragedies of others; that's why the photo got so many views. It's like the people who stand around the scene of a road accident; though they are of no help at all they all stand there looking and encumber the rescue guys.

Quoting Acontador (Reply 10):
Reading through this thread, I wonder what the real value of this picture is for A.net? The aircrafts involved are too far away (and very blurry), so the only "value" is the accident by itself.



Quoting Acontador (Reply 10):
this picture ... was in my opinion posted on the wrong site at the wrong time, and the crew should have noticed that

 checkmark   checkmark 

This all reminds me of a certain ERJ-145 shot we had in the db not so long ago; some hasty screener gave it a quick addition without giving it a second thought. But this time it's not just some more or less well done cloning but a picture of an aircraft where you bascially got no aircraft as main subject and all this only to be among the first to picture the tragic loss of a pilot.

Very poor decision on this one!  no 

Thierry
"Go ahead...make my day"
 
gerardo
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RE: Picture Of Accident... Lack Of Respect?

Tue Sep 12, 2006 3:05 am

Five minutes of fame at the cost of disrespecting the pilot and his family.

Should the photo have been accepted, if there were no fatalities? Has it really been accepted, just because it was an accident? Way to go ....

Gerardo
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IngemarE
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RE: Picture Of Accident... Lack Of Respect?

Tue Sep 12, 2006 3:46 am

My feeling is that this picture should never have reached A-net.
Why?
First off; It's only "perk" is that it's sensationalistic. It "only" shows the death of a fellow aviator. (One that I happen to have met a few times and seen fly countless times.)
Other than that it lacks everything what is otherwise demanded of pic's uploaded to the DB. It's blurry, its focus is all wrong,...not to mention distance.
But what really bugged me was the fact that his name was mentioned. Absolutely no need for that.
While news-rags in Sweden kept themselves in check and refrained from mentioning his name out of compassion for those of his family and closest friends that hadn't yet gotten the sad news, A-net had it in the DB for everyone to see and read.
I just hope that none of his friends or relatives got the bad news due to this, because that is one of the worst things that can happen. I've experienced it myself first hand 20 years ago when my best friend lost his life at Trollveggen, and I don't wish that to happen to anyone.

Airliners a news-media!?! Get out of here!!!
A-net is, and should keep itself to being, a great web-site for aviation enthusiasts, focusing on pictures, forum-discussions, trip-reports and that kind of stuff.
In thrust I trust.
 
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RE: Picture Of Accident... Lack Of Respect?

Tue Sep 12, 2006 4:22 am

Quoting Gerardo (Reply 16):
Five minutes of fame at the cost of disrespecting the pilot and his family.

So if that's your view then the jets hitting the twin towers should never have been filmed.
 
AirMalta
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RE: Picture Of Accident... Lack Of Respect?

Tue Sep 12, 2006 4:37 am

Since Alan is not in the forum he is a friend of mine and he sent me this sms he did not tell me to post it but I am doing this anyway:

''Hi Malcolm.Believe me.With every minute that passes I am not proud of that photo''
If you tell me so why he left the photo there?

I tell you that I was one of those who encouraged him to leave the pict there and that there is no disrespect in the picture itself!Altough I agree to most of the opinions here like if family was notified or not!!Sometime or another they have to face the truth the person is not coming back for sure so for me its useless to say that.
On the other hand I can see a disrespect if there was silly comments written in the picture.
If you tell me if shots like this should be uploaded or not on a.net I tell you why not?There are photos of planes involved in an accident and that photo is purely showing a real accident in action a positive aspect is that it is showing the pilot of N22JW ejecting so whilst we are taking the negative aspect of the photo there is also a postive one in it!!But seems that everyone in the world looks at the negative aspect!!
I did not put any quotes here so that nobody takes this on a personal basis!!

All d best 2U
Malcolm Bezzina
Malta Wink
 
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Kukkudrill
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RE: Picture Of Accident... Lack Of Respect?

Tue Sep 12, 2006 5:40 am

Dear all,

To follow on from Malcolm's post, I have just received the message below by e-mail from Alan Cordina (the photographer) who asked me to post it on his behalf.

Charles

_________________

Good Day everyone on this thread. I am the photographer of this photo and I wish to say something that may probably come as a surprise to many. First of all I wish to state that I am still sorrowful, disturbed, and feeling down and low (heavy heart I think you call it), by what I witnessed, even more so, when later I was seeing photos of Gabor Varga in older photos on a.net in happier times, saluting the crowds etc etc I just could not look any more ! I also promise that I would not have / will not accept any money (whatever the amount) for a photo showing that tragic moment involving a human being. I have other photos of the aircraft (day before accident) flying only metres away from me, close up with the pilot's face easily recognisable, which even today more than 24 hours after the incident, I could not bring myself to work on (photoshop) as I was still feeling very sad. In fact I want to conclude by answering the original question on this thread : I will never blame a.net for accepting this photo, in my opinion they did nothing wrong, I will even say that they should have / obliged to accept this photo for sharing with 40,000 viewers in 24 hours, (!) but, I should not have uploaded the photo, and afterwards I was and still am sorry that I did. I am not proud of it. May I give my condolences to Gabor Varga's family and friends, and may he rest in peace. I will eventually upload photos of Gabor during his excellent and breathtaking aerobatics as a tribute. And that is what I should have uploaded from the begining and not of him dead in the floating wreckage. On the other hand I cannot really blame the screener at a.net, as he may have perhaps looked at the journalistic value, so I say both sets of opinions may be right, although I will always wish I never uploaded this photo. Alan Cordina.
Make the most of the available light ... a lesson of photography that applies to life
 
QANTAS077
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RE: Picture Of Accident... Lack Of Respect?

Tue Sep 12, 2006 6:40 am

who's he trying to convince?
 
TS
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RE: Picture Of Accident... Lack Of Respect?

Tue Sep 12, 2006 6:44 am

I'm surprised by the number of negative reactions on this photo. This is an aviation site, & accidents unfortunately do happen in aviation as well. There's nothing wrong with this photo, & I don't see anything disrespectful here.

Quoting Alex22 (Thread starter):
Can you imagine that probably many friends or family member of that pilot hadn't heard about this tragedy but the picture was already online...???

That's the same with TV news. It's sad, yes, but why should information about an accident be withheld?

Quoting Alex22 (Reply 8):
If Allan sent his pic to news agencies that's ok. But we are, most of us, not professional and we're taking picture as an hobby.

I don't see the point. A photo is a photo.

Quoting Alex22 (Reply 13):
Yes I agree but where is the quality on that particular shot ?

It's high quality because it's a photo of an incident.

Quoting BrianW999 (Reply 14):
As a paramedic I tend not to have much respect for the press anyway. They have a bad habit of not letting the truth or peoples feelings get in the way of a good story.

I'm sure there are paramedics who do a good job & some who don't quite do such a good job. It's the same with "the press." No need for prejudice.

Quoting ThierryD (Reply 15):
Yeah, because some people would just about publish anything only to earn some bucks and thus profiting from the tragedy of others! That is a very poor attitude!

That statement makes about the same sense as telling a trauma surgeon that he makes his money by exploiting people's mysery. Some people do reporting for a living, & unfortunately accidents are part of this.

Quoting IngemarE (Reply 17):
It's blurry, its focus is all wrong,...not to mention distance.

The normal rules shouldn't be applied to photos like this.

Quoting IngemarE (Reply 17):
But what really bugged me was the fact that his name was mentioned.

I see your point. That wasn't necessary, but in countries like the US it's not unusual to give victims' names.

Thomas
Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
 
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Ryan h
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RE: Picture Of Accident... Lack Of Respect?

Tue Sep 12, 2006 9:19 am

I don;t think it is disrespectful to have the photo on a.net.

It is a one in a million shot.
South Australian Spotter www.ryanhothersall.net
 
AirMalta
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RE: Picture Of Accident... Lack Of Respect?

Tue Sep 12, 2006 1:21 pm

If the pict of Alan should never be uploaded what about the below then?Its still showing an accident!!I only linked few pics of the many around!!With all respect to their respective photographers.
Malcolm

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1087551/M/

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0527166/M/

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0501416/M/

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0267741/M/
 
senorcarnival
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RE: Picture Of Accident... Lack Of Respect?

Tue Sep 12, 2006 1:39 pm

Quoting AirMalta (Reply 24):
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0267741/M/

Did you bother to read the comments from the photog on this one? Probably not. Go check it out...
Oh no, she's getting impatient! Take a stab at it!
 
Alex22
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RE: Picture Of Accident... Lack Of Respect?

Tue Sep 12, 2006 1:45 pm

Air Malta...,
The difference is that none of those pics were uploaded 3-4 hours after the accident... and with priority screening. Other difference I see are... Quality, name of the pilot not mentioned and only the Ramstein crash there was fatal.

Again it's not personal and I do think that Alan had a lot of courage with his few words... But I'm still waiting to get a clear answer from A.net to know why they did accept that picture so fast, and if A.net is now some kind of news agency... ? I don't want to see A.net becoming a place where sensational is more important that a great quality picture of any aircraft.

Quoting 9VSPO (Reply 18):
So if that's your view then the jets hitting the twin towers should never have been filmed.

Are you seriously comparing a small aircraft crash, a thing that happens everyday, with 9-11 ?? please.

Alex
 
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RE: Picture Of Accident... Lack Of Respect?

Tue Sep 12, 2006 1:48 pm

Malcom,
With all due respect, 2 of your llinked shots are of a non fatal accident and a third one is a purposefully staged motion picture stunt. The fourth as tragic as it was is well in the public record and occured years before the photograph was accepted here.

Alan's photo was both newsworthy and timely.
Is it it sad and tragic that Mr Varga died indulging in his passion?(and many know how often we have had that discussion here in Australia this last week) Yes it most certainly was.
Was it disrespectful to post it here? I don't think so. Mr Varga was participating in a public event, multi-plane air racing no less, an event that would to most reasonable people carry a higher degree of risk than conventional aviation.
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
 
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RE: Picture Of Accident... Lack Of Respect?

Tue Sep 12, 2006 2:00 pm

Quoting Eksath (Reply 3):
The lack of respect here is you starting this thread slamming him and airliners.net

Can't see any slamming and lack of respect in the thread starters question. He wanted to here opinions nothing else.  white 


Quoting Eksath (Reply 3):
Grow up, buddy!

 alert  That's lack of respect  alert 
-
 
QANTAS077
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RE: Picture Of Accident... Lack Of Respect?

Tue Sep 12, 2006 4:30 pm

if alan has such a problem why doesn't he just ask for the pic to be removed?
 
QANTAS077
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RE: Picture Of Accident... Lack Of Respect?

Tue Sep 12, 2006 4:37 pm

Quoting 9VSPO (Reply 18):
So if that's your view then the jets hitting the twin towers should never have been filmed.

that's drawing a long bow...
 
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ThierryD
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RE: Picture Of Accident... Lack Of Respect?

Tue Sep 12, 2006 5:33 pm

Quoting TS (Reply 22):
That's the same with TV news. It's sad, yes, but why should information about an accident be withheld?

Why SHOULD they be published at any price!!?!

Quoting TS (Reply 22):
Quoting ThierryD (Reply 15):
Yeah, because some people would just about publish anything only to earn some bucks and thus profiting from the tragedy of others! That is a very poor attitude!

That statement makes about the same sense as telling a trauma surgeon that he makes his money by exploiting people's mysery. Some people do reporting for a living, & unfortunately accidents are part of this.

You don't really believe what you're writing, do you!!?! A surgeon tries to save lives and he's being paid for it; I dont see any relation between these 2 activites!!

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 27):
Malcom,
With all due respect, 2 of your llinked shots are of a non fatal accident and a third one is a purposefully staged motion picture stunt. The fourth as tragic as it was is well in the public record and occured years before the photograph was accepted here.

 checkmark 

I wouldn't blame Alan as being the main responsible here; in the first hours with the emotions still mixed up I can understand why he uploaded the shot. But the screeners should have known better; they should have the necessary distance to judge such a shot and should have rejected it with an explanatory note to the photographer.
If the shot had been uploaded some weeks, months or years after I guess it would be ok as some time would have somewhat healed the wounds of the people concerned but still the fact would remain that the picture wouldn't qualify for the A.net db since most that it shows is a bunch of people with a blurry, far too distant plane somewhere in the background.

P.S.: for those who still don't get it; imagine one of your closest relatives dying in a road accident and having other people look at the wreckage on the internet and giving each his/her unnecessary comment about it. I really doubt this would help you surmount the tragedy!

Thierry
"Go ahead...make my day"
 
ghostbase
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RE: Picture Of Accident... Lack Of Respect?

Wed Sep 13, 2006 1:30 am

An interesting thread and thanks to Alex for asking the question. Those of us who regularly attend public aviation events as (amateur) photographers are almost certain to witness a fatal accident at some point and as has been demonstrated here our reactions and sensitivities to such events are certainly very varied according to our personalities and beliefs.

Personally I think Alan has taken an excellent photo. Yes, technically the aircraft is not in focus and ordinarily would be well under A.Net standards however just looking at the postures of the people in the foreground and what is happening over the water, the photograph has captured the moment. Surely that is one of the prime purposes of photography? And, that being so, this is a photo to be proud of.

Should it have been posted on A.Net? Again I think it should. Whether we like it or not A.Net is in fact a sort of news media. This site is accessible to anyone who wishes to view it, it is generally very well managed by the 'crew', priority screening ensures that photos of interest are uploaded in just hours, and A.Net has something like over 12,000 photographers out there all round the world. Not to mention the 200,000 daily visitors. Most news gathering organisations would dream of having a network like this. In the future the db will also be an historical resource.

Were this my photo, before uploading it I would ask whether it meets my personal code of ethics. The answer would be yes; the wreckage in the water is relatively intact and we only know there has been a fatality because it is mentioned in the text. There have been photos uploaded to A.Net in the past which have shown the crushed remains of aircraft cabins which I think would be far closer to being 'inappropriate' than this one.

Regards the very short time scale between the accident and the posting of the photo, I can understand the sensitivity of this and do respect the opinions of those who say it was too soon. However, as has already been pointed out, relatives and friends are more likely to learn from mainstream media than casually surfing A.Net. At the end of the day consideration of the short time scale must surely also be A.Net's responsibility and I would think that the priority screeners considered this before accepting the photograph.

Just one thing that has not been remarked upon. I think that Alan's text accompanying this photo is very factual regards what the photo illustrates, and he acknowledges that he has witnessed a tragic event but not in an over-the-top fashion.

  

Edit: I just noticed that most of the public remarks have been removed. That does feel appropriate.

[Edited 2006-09-12 18:32:50]
"I chase my dreams but I never seem to arrive"
 
cHabu
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RE: Picture Of Accident... Lack Of Respect?

Wed Sep 13, 2006 7:44 am

The only thing that bothers me, is the fact that the photo isn't sharp enough to see the details.

IMHO, the photo should have been rejected because it hasn't the high standard A.Net is pretending to uphold.

In the past i have submitted two pics. One with CS-TMR after it's rejected take-off and one close-up of a badly damaged Fly Air engine.

Both where very newsworthy, but got rejected.

Don't ever tell me A.Net only accepts high quality photo's. By accepting this photo, A.Net went against it's own rules....

I find it very hard to get a photo accepted on A.Net, but once in a while i think i have got a good enough photo, only to get it rejected.

Seeing a photo like this proves to me the whole screening process is [censor].

BTW, nothing personal, just my opinion.

Chris.
Someday i'll fly away......
 
AirMalta
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RE: Picture Of Accident... Lack Of Respect?

Wed Sep 13, 2006 7:59 am

Hi all
I am posting this obo Alan Cordina :

Good day to all. its me again, Alan (photographer of this photo). I promised myself, and as I always do, I will keep the promise, that this will be my last reply / contribution to this thread whatever other messages may still appear.
Firstly I want to say that I never followed what was going on, on this thread, as I did not even want to know ! this is because I did not want to listen or read anything having to do with this photo, which I have already said hundreds of times to many friends, and even on here through a friend, I am not proud of. I only got to really know what was being said, when another friend sent me a link to the thread because he had come across my other message. And I have this to say to some of the replies :
1 - I tried uploading this photo on another db too at the same time I did on a.net. I first got a rejection from the other db for bad motive, which I appealed against, on the basis, that there can never be a good motive in a photo of a tragic accident can there ?. But the reply I got back from the screener was that he does not show photos of a pilot who is about to die, or is dying in the weckage of his floating plane. This really got me thinking and shook me and brought me to my senses, and after about 2 mins with my face in my hands, I was almost ashamed of myself that I not only tried to upload but also appealed the rejection. I immediately tried to delete the photo from a.net queue, but to my shock it was too late. Now comes the crunchy bit. Something that could have saved me a lot of ill feelings with myself.I have my doubts whether everyone will believe this, because even I myself, now am feeling stupid ! But, I did not know that one can delete / remove or ask for the deletion / removal of a photo. Yes, laugh or gasp all you want but its the truth, and had I known I would have deleted it IMMEDIATELY after that other screener (other db) explanation really shook me. From then on, started what I can say, the worst two days of my life, feeling ashamed of myself for uploading this photo, and not managing to concentrate not even at work, (believe me the subject is sensitive) and shutting myself out from any internet exposure, as I did not want to hear anything about it. So with every sms I received from friends about Top of 24 hours and Top of this and Top of that, made it even worse, with each message I received, as I was hoping and wishing that the photo would not be viewed by a lot of people, and would soon be sidelined and forgotten (so you can imagine when I read this thread !)..If only I knew I could remove the photo ! Now, why don't I remove it now ? I'm shaking my head at the moment..... I think its stupid and useless now. A bit too late. The damage has been done.

2 - The worst 2 replies on this thread that really hurt. The frist one was a SHOCK !! This is because it came from THAT SAME other db screener, who I gave the full credit and thank him for bringing me to my senses with his explanatory note, after which, as I said, I managed to feel ashamed of myself. I had even replied personally to him, expressing my thankfulness to him and to admit with him that yes, I agree with him when he said that he was disgusted with me ! Yes, thats what he wrote to me ! And what do I reply to him ? that I agree with every word he was calling me, because that's how I was feeling myself. Till now he has not replied back with at least a received acknowledgment, and whats more, he comes on here and INSIST on my "five minutes of fame at cost of disrespecting human life, or attention seeking something like that bla bla bla, because I could not even read on to the end ! The only benefit of the doubt I can give him is that maybe he had posted that reply before receiving my reply email in which I admitted to all his accusations and all the things he called me, and in which I said how sorry I am. If this was the case though, I think he would have replied to my email explaining that he had posted on the forum before receiving my email. As it is, I take it that he does not beleive me, which I have to "content" with, with all the other things.

The other one was from a guy from Australia Qantas something I think 077 ? To this guy I say, one of your questions was valid. that is when you asked why I did not remove it. The answer is above, and I say again, if only I knew that I could.
But, to your other question, "Who's he trying to convince ?" to that I just say : you don't deserve to be on a forum. To a.net admin I urge you to screen comments like that, because it is the lowest and most callous, gobsmacking remark anyone would not have expected on a site like this. It deserves better.

One other guy thankfully noted that I removed the comments under the photo. This was because I could not accept comments like "great Shot !!" and thats it, nothing else, without the slightest indication that the author (of comment) realised that there was loss of life ! Others were very respectful I have to say, for which I must thank but I just removed them all to be fair.

Lastly, I also wish to thank all those who tried to "defend" me, but I am sorry to tell you that though I still thank you, I cannot agree with you because still I feel I should not have uploaded that photo and I am sorry that I did.

Alan


Malcolm Bezzina
 
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RE: Picture Of Accident... Lack Of Respect?

Wed Sep 13, 2006 8:15 am

Quoting AirMalta (Reply 34):
But, to your other question, "Who's he trying to convince ?" to that I just say : you don't deserve to be on a forum. To a.net admin I urge you to screen comments like that, because it is the lowest and most callous, gobsmacking remark anyone would not have expected on a site like this. It deserves better.

question is valid...who are you trying to convince? you'd have been better off saying nothing! you can always email admin here and ask for the photo to be removed. I've read through your email on the other site...i'm one of the screeners ...but i fail to see what that has to do with this site? we rejected...build a bridge!
 
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eksath
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RE: Picture Of Accident... Lack Of Respect?

Wed Sep 13, 2006 8:22 am

well....How long before the video is on youtube..if not already?


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Ian Wright
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Alan Cordina

World Wide Aerospace Photography
 
AirMalta
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RE: Picture Of Accident... Lack Of Respect?

Wed Sep 13, 2006 8:27 am

In action!!Its extra rare to see that in real!!
Malcolm
 
dc10tim
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RE: Picture Of Accident... Lack Of Respect?

Wed Sep 13, 2006 8:51 am

I confess I haven't read all of this thread as it's way past bedtime.

However:

Quoting Dendrobatid (Reply 7):
This is a real ethical dilemma, one that would not bother any journalist.

Touche Mick  Wink I think in a situation like this the ethical dilemma would be whether or not to accept money for such a shot. I personally would not. Lets face it, recording aircraft images, we are all essentially journalists anyway although what we do is of little relevance to a broad populous most of the time.

The problem comes in situations such as when Princess Diana was killed and journalistic instinct overrode the need to offer assistance to those who were trapped in the car dieing, which is simply sick. I don't think any comparisons can really be drawn here.

Quoting Kukkudrill (Reply 20):
but, I should not have uploaded the photo, and afterwards I was and still am sorry that I did. I am not proud of it.

As has been said, the photo can be removed, but (again) personally I don't have any moral problem with the shot being uploaded, even though it is of such a tragic event. It's certainly very sad and shocking, but perhaps something that is of importance to convey the enormity of what happened.

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 21):
who's he trying to convince?

What are you on?

Regards,

Tim.
Obviously missing something....
 
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RE: Picture Of Accident... Lack Of Respect?

Wed Sep 13, 2006 9:25 am

Quoting DC10Tim (Reply 38):
What are you on?

nothing...it's a fair question! don't like my opinion then challenge it, if you can't do that then go to bed.
 
CalgaryBill
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RE: Picture Of Accident... Lack Of Respect?

Wed Sep 13, 2006 11:10 am

Personally - and I recognize that morals are a matter of personal choice - I would not have uploaded the photo. Once the family's emotions have wound down it would be reasonable to share. What really surprises me is that a lot of responses say "the media would do it so why shouldn't we?" We're in "hella trouble" if we start using the media as our moral weathervane!!!

1) the Internet is no longer a cosy little folksy utopian place to share happy news. Internet = Life (the good,bad and the ugly)

That's kind of funny - being a public, easily accessible medium for us to share information, I've always believed the internet was whatever we make it. I don't patronize sites like Rotten, and I don't come here to see that kind of material.

B
 
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RE: Picture Of Accident... Lack Of Respect?

Wed Sep 13, 2006 4:11 pm

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 39):
nothing...it's a fair question! don't like my opinion then challenge it, if you can't do that then go to bed.

Oh I'm not afraid of challenging our opinion, I just don't think the attitude is necessary. Regards having the photo deleted, what's the point now everyone has seen it?
Obviously missing something....
 
sulman
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RE: Picture Of Accident... Lack Of Respect?

Wed Sep 13, 2006 5:46 pm

Quoting DC10Tim (Reply 41):
Oh I'm not afraid of challenging our opinion, I just don't think the attitude is necessary. Regards having the photo deleted, what's the point now everyone has seen it?

Some people enjoy a soapbox.
It takes a big man to admit they are wrong, and I am not a big man.
 
AirMalta
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RE: Picture Of Accident... Lack Of Respect?

Wed Sep 13, 2006 8:11 pm

http://www.di-ve.com/dive/portal/portal.jhtml?id=247544&pid=23

http://gallery.di-ve.com/air%20tragedy/air_tragedy/index.html

http://www.timesofmalta.com/core/article.php?id=236607

http://www.timesofmalta.com/core/article.php?id=236768

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2tEaKHCZTU
this link is the crash link thks to AeroYU.

the media is always there and try to be as quick as possible to spread the news!!
Personally as the below friends in the forum said:

Quoting IngemarE (Reply 17):
Airliners a news-media!?! Get out of here!!!



Quoting BrianW999 (Reply 14):
As a paramedic I tend not to have much respect for the press anyway. They have a bad habit of not letting the truth or peoples feelings get in the way of a good story.

 checkmark 

I agree cos they dont tell the truth or else they say 65% of it!!

It useless to try to hide the accident the media will spread it anyway!!

Malcolm Bezzina
 
TS
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RE: Picture Of Accident... Lack Of Respect?

Wed Sep 13, 2006 10:59 pm

Quoting AirMalta (Reply 43):
I agree cos they dont tell the truth or else they say 65% of it!!

Oh yeah? How do you know?

Thomas
Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
 
AirMalta
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RE: Picture Of Accident... Lack Of Respect?

Wed Sep 13, 2006 11:01 pm

Quoting TS (Reply 44):
Oh yeah? How do you know?

Probably you may read 4 local newspapers and they will talk about the same thing but then you see that they are not talking of the same thing!!
malc
 
AirMalta
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RE: Picture Of Accident... Lack Of Respect?

Wed Sep 13, 2006 11:43 pm

http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=5812305

Hi see
the above picture while I was surfing found this very emotional photo when the pilot waved for the last time of the public the following day both aircraft in the picture has collided and the one waving is now gone forever!!
Malcolm
 
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RE: Picture Of Accident... Lack Of Respect?

Thu Sep 14, 2006 3:30 am

Quoting Alex22 (Reply 13):

Yes I agree but where is the quality on that particular shot ?

For the standards required by A.net, I think that the quality of the pic don't reach at all such levels.

BTW I agree with the start thread that this is a total lack of respect.
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
gerardo
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RE: Picture Of Accident... Lack Of Respect?

Thu Sep 14, 2006 5:23 am

Perhaps some friend af Alan is kind enough to pass him the following message:

Alan wrote:

Quoting AirMalta (Reply 34):
2 - The worst 2 replies on this thread that really hurt. The frist one was a SHOCK !! This is because it came from THAT SAME other db screener, who I gave the full credit and thank him for bringing me to my senses with his explanatory note, after which, as I said, I managed to feel ashamed of myself. I had even replied personally to him, expressing my thankfulness to him and to admit with him that yes, I agree with him when he said that he was disgusted with me ! Yes, thats what he wrote to me ! And what do I reply to him ? that I agree with every word he was calling me, because that's how I was feeling myself. Till now he has not replied back with at least a received acknowledgment, and whats more, he comes on here and INSIST on my "five minutes of fame at cost of disrespecting human life, or attention seeking something like that bla bla bla, because I could not even read on to the end ! The only benefit of the doubt I can give him is that maybe he had posted that reply before receiving my reply email in which I admitted to all his accusations and all the things he called me, and in which I said how sorry I am. If this was the case though, I think he would have replied to my email explaining that he had posted on the forum before receiving my email. As it is, I take it that he does not beleive me, which I have to "content" with, with all the other things.

To make a long story short: I am the screener mentioned above, so:

a) Thank you, Alan, (NOT!!!) for taking our private discussion into the public, and what's more, even into a completely different website (that's meant very sarcastic!!)

b) Why should I even reply to you? You can easily ask the screeners to have the photo removed. Until then, I still think, you are enojoying your five minutes of glory and I don't see the urge of replying to you. Nothing wrong with trying to get hits, but admit it, instead of telling me one way and acting the other.

c) Compare the times when every bit between us was written and when I posted my reply here! Why did you have to atack me now in public???

Gerardo
dominguez(dash)online(dot)ch ... Pushing the limits of my equipment
 
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RE: Picture Of Accident... Lack Of Respect?

Fri Sep 15, 2006 6:07 am

Quoting TS (Reply 44):
Quoting AirMalta (Reply 43):
I agree cos they dont tell the truth or else they say 65% of it!!



Quoting TS (Reply 44):
Oh yeah? How do you know?

I don't know how Air Malta knows but I know how I know !

Going off-topic for a short while just to give one example.....
.....I went to a road traffic accident some years ago where a car had collided with a small fuel tanker. The occupants were trapped by folded metal but essentially had minor injuries only so my colleague and I performed a rapid extrication of the two occupants. One or two minutes later the whole lot went up in flames.

We were leaving the scene with the two minor injured casualties when the fire service turned up and put out the conflagration.

The local press printed the correct story the following day but to my astonishment a national daily reported, with pictures?, how the fire service heroes saved two motorists from a horrible death in a burning vehicle.

Let me state right here and now that this is not a swipe at the fire service, who do a job that I certainly wouldn't do. They were embarrassed to hell that the national media had used a fire service photograph in such a manner, and so wildly misreported the truth. The fact was that a fire service rescue was more newsworthy than an ambulance crew digging someone out of a vehicle that wasn't yet alight, even if the story was so provably untrue.

Reporters ? I wouldn't cross the road to pi$$ on them if they were on fire.

To get back on topic......

I'm pleased to hear that the photographer wishes he hadn't uploaded the picture. Now would be a good time to pull it from Anet if that hasn't already been done. If we need to discuss the quality of the picture...well, links in a post prior to this show better quality pics that have been used in the press that were not posted on Anet.

Someone else mentioned Anet being a journalistic type of website. What utter garbage ! Anet is a site for mostly amateur photographers to display their photographic skills and maybe, now and again, sell the odd picture to a company for promotional purposes or to a magazine for illustration purposes. Anyone who thinks differently is living in cloud cuckoo land.
Any paparazzi style photographer who wants to sell a tragedy picture to the media won't come within a million miles of Anet. Why ?...because their lowlife colleagues will have their pictures on the front page of The Sun newspaper instead of the front page of Anet.

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