thvgjp
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US Laws Regarding Aviation Photography

Wed Sep 13, 2006 12:45 pm

I have seen debates on this site regarding what the local police can and cannot do in regards to aviation photography at airports. Is it legal or not, power hungry security guards interpreting laws differently etc, etc. I just received my Oct issue of Trains Magazine, Trainwatchers have had the same issues as us Plane Spotters. However they got the ACLU involved and several cases were found in favor of the Train Watchers. The ACLU got the New York Transit System to reverse a ban on photography on or near its assets. Basically its a First Amendment issue. Great article, we can all learn from it lessons on dealing with the authorities who claim it is illegal to photograph planes at the airport. I suggest anybody interested in this topic to read the article.
glen
 
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JeffM
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RE: US Laws Regarding Aviation Photography

Wed Sep 13, 2006 12:50 pm

Quoting THVGJP (Thread starter):
Great article, we can all learn from it lessons on dealing with the authorities who claim it is illegal to photograph planes at the airport.

It makes far more sense to learn who owns the spot you want to take pictures from and get their permission. Most airports and the property for miles around them are owned by either the City and County or some other agency. They make the rules, the police just enforce them.
 
Newark777
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RE: US Laws Regarding Aviation Photography

Wed Sep 13, 2006 1:01 pm

Quoting JeffM (Reply 1):
the police just enforce them.

And make up their own sometimes. And don't try arguing with them.

Harry
Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
 
JohnJ
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RE: US Laws Regarding Aviation Photography

Wed Sep 13, 2006 1:25 pm

Quoting JeffM (Reply 1):
It makes far more sense to learn who owns the spot you want to take pictures from and get their permission.

There are many fine photography vantage points at airports around the United States that are neither on airport property nor private property. Who do I need to ask to get permission to shoot from those spots?

The ACLU certainly takes on some cases with unpopular appeal, but they did a great job in New York and New Jersey. There was also a high-profile case in Chicago involving railfans getting a major hassle in a Metra train station that resulted in a large story in one of the major Chicago papers, and the police backed off their photography enforcement. More recently, the Union Pacific Railroad began enforcing its own photography ban from Metra stations. That a well-organized effort to fight these bans is effective can be read here:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/c.../chi-060828photoban,1,832743.story
 
thvgjp
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RE: US Laws Regarding Aviation Photography

Wed Sep 13, 2006 1:42 pm

The brunt of the article dealt with a proposed and a enacted rule by the New Jesey Transit and the New York Transit Authority to outlaw all photography on its property and of its property . The ACLU cought wind of this and took them to task and the Supreme Court has recognised that generaly photography is a right of free expression, and as long as the area is open to the public you have a right to photograph whatever you wish, and police cannot confiscate or ask you to delete or destroy your film of digital images. Seeing the ACLU sued the Transit Authoritys which are quasigovernmental agencies and won I dont see how it cant be applied to us guys who shhot from or around airports. Im not condoning going nuts and acting suspicious, of course if your doing things that raise the suspisions of the public you ought to be questioned by the local PD. In the same token the PD shoudnt act like gestapo either and kick you out of a public area (parking lot, garage deck, side of road) if all you are doing is shooting photos and not in any danger to yourself or airport property. The Traiwatchers have engraciated themselfs with the Railroads to become a second set of eyes to watch for the things they are being accuesd of, education of the powers to be went a long way here, hopefully we as Plane Spotters can do the same in the USA.
 
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JeffM
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RE: US Laws Regarding Aviation Photography

Wed Sep 13, 2006 2:10 pm

Quoting JohnJ (Reply 3):
There are many fine photography vantage points at airports around the United States that are neither on airport property nor private property.

Do some research. Just because you are outside the fence, does not mean the property is still not owned or controlled by the airport authority. In some cases, they own the property for a couple (2-3) miles outside the fence. It is considered public access, but is still privately owned.
 
DLKAPA
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RE: US Laws Regarding Aviation Photography

Wed Sep 13, 2006 2:18 pm

Quoting JeffM (Reply 5):
It is considered public access, but is still privately owned.

Privately owned at Taxpayer expense... Gotta love those "wheat fields" that surround DEN.
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
JohnJ
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RE: US Laws Regarding Aviation Photography

Wed Sep 13, 2006 10:25 pm

Quoting JeffM (Reply 5):
Do some research. Just because you are outside the fence, does not mean the property is still not owned or controlled by the airport authority. In some cases, they own the property for a couple (2-3) miles outside the fence. It is considered public access, but is still privately owned.

I'm talking about places like public parks that are clearly not connected with the airport in any way. There are stories out there of photographers being hassled at Planeview Park near LaGuardia, at public parks in Winthrop near Boston, and at the park at the north end of Sea-Tac. I was hassled by and told to leave by the Elizabeth, NJ police a couple of years ago while taking pictures on a public sidewalk - across the New Jersey Turnpike from the Newark Airport and nowhere near airport property.

In any event, the ACLU stories involve photographers being denied photography access inside commuter authority rail stations, specifically with New Jersey's NJ Transit and Chicago's Metra system. NJ Transit and Metra are both public corporations, and I don't see much difference in the legality of shooting from commuter rail line property and airport property. In the New Jersey case, the New Jersey Attorney General determined that it was indeed legal for photographers to operate on the property of NJ Transit rail stations and ordered NJ Transit police to stop their activities against photographers.
 
mikephotos
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RE: US Laws Regarding Aviation Photography

Wed Sep 13, 2006 11:39 pm

Quoting JeffM (Reply 5):
Do some research. Just because you are outside the fence, does not mean the property is still not owned or controlled by the airport authority. In some cases, they own the property for a couple (2-3) miles outside the fence. It is considered public access, but is still privately owned

Not all airports are like DEN where 30 miles outside the fenceline is still airport property  Wink In some spots at JFK, it switches from PAPD to NYPD in a matter of a few feet. Also, most of the outside shooting location are well out of PAPD stomping grounds. Same with LGA and other major airports around the US. I don't think anyone here thinks two inches outside of the fence is no longer airport property. It's usually (not always) easy to figure out where airport ends and city/town begins. You just have to leave DEN sometime and see what an airport not surrounded by 100 miles of fields look like  Smile

I would think subway systems like NYCTA/MTA are also considered privately owned/public acesss?

Mike
 
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JeffM
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RE: US Laws Regarding Aviation Photography

Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:47 am

Quoting Mikephotos (Reply 8):
You just have to leave DEN sometime and see what an airport not surrounded by 100 miles of fields look like

Gee. What a wonderful suggestion.
 
dc10tim
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RE: US Laws Regarding Aviation Photography

Thu Sep 14, 2006 8:23 am

Jeff, I'm not getting into this whole security argument again, everyone knows my opinions, but how can the Police remove you from private property?

Tim.
Obviously missing something....
 
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JeffM
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RE: US Laws Regarding Aviation Photography

Thu Sep 14, 2006 11:43 am

Quoting DC10Tim (Reply 10):
how can the Police remove you from private property?

...when the owner asks them to.
 
MONGORAT
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RE: US Laws Regarding Aviation Photography

Thu Sep 14, 2006 12:20 pm

Quoting DC10Tim (Reply 10):
Jeff, I'm not getting into this whole security argument again, everyone knows my opinions, but how can the Police remove you from private property?

Tim...a good question but one without a clear answer. Last Saturday I was at Los Angeles International with Chad Thomas and Matt Wallman. We were shooting photos from a "public" sidewalk adjacent a very busy and "public" highway/road. The three of us had a very uncomfortable "visit" from one of LA's finest motor cops. I won't bore you with details but he explained to us that his "mission" was to patrol the north side of the airport for any suspicious activity. Apparently taking photos a mile down the road at the In & Out park was O.K, as was another "sanctioned" spot called Imperial Hill. But the three of us standing on a public sidewalk was certainly not O.K. We asked the officer specifically why we could not shoot from here. His answers varied from "It's easier to launch a stinger missile from here where less people can see you," to "You guys are too close to this power relay station and that makes me nervous..." Another photographer shooting from this same spot a week or two earlier actually had to delete all the photos from his camera's memory card before being chased away.

So to answer your question I think it's a subjective call on the part of the officer of whatever security person may stop by to see what you are up to.
Regrettably, they can probably fall back on "We don't want you shooting pictures here for this reason or that reason..." And until you or I decide to say, "O.K., arrest me and take me down to the station and charge me with a crime...," we won't know if they as law enforcement can legitimately arrest or remove you from this property.

Quoting JeffM (Reply 5):
Do some research. Just because you are outside the fence, does not mean the property is still not owned or controlled by the airport authority. In some cases, they own the property for a couple (2-3) miles outside the fence. It is considered public access, but is still privately owned.

This could and may be the exact reason...private property as Jeff said.

-Matt L
 
NIKV69
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RE: US Laws Regarding Aviation Photography

Thu Sep 14, 2006 12:27 pm

Quoting Mongorat (Reply 12):
The three of us had a very uncomfortable "visit" from one of LA's finest motor cops. I won't bore you with details but he explained to us that his "mission" was to patrol the north side of the airport for any suspicious activity. Apparently taking photos a mile down the road at the In & Out park was O.K, as was another "sanctioned" spot called Imperial Hill. But the three of us standing on a public sidewalk was certainly not O.K. We asked the officer specifically why we could not shoot from here. His answers varied from "It's easier to launch a stinger missile from here where less people can see you," to "You guys are too close to this power relay station and that makes me nervous..." Another photographer shooting from this same spot a week or two earlier actually had to delete all the photos from his camera's memory card before being chased away.

Good to see LAX turning into Nazi Germany. Do you have to show your papers too? What a joke. Good to see that Al Qaida is winning.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
futterman
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RE: US Laws Regarding Aviation Photography

Thu Sep 14, 2006 1:06 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 13):

Good to see LAX turning into Nazi Germany. Do you have to show your papers too? What a joke. Good to see that Al Qaida is winning.

Doesn't matter, Nick. The view's better from the top of the Radisson anyway.

Oh, wait...that's right... sarcastic 
What the FUTT?
 
NIKV69
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RE: US Laws Regarding Aviation Photography

Thu Sep 14, 2006 1:16 pm

Quoting Futterman (Reply 14):
Doesn't matter, Nick. The view's better from the top of the Radisson anyway.

I kind of remember the police being called when you were up there, not when I was but wait you are a very responsible spotter. (stroking myself)
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
futterman
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RE: US Laws Regarding Aviation Photography

Thu Sep 14, 2006 1:31 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 15):
I kind of remember the police being called when you were up there, not when I was but wait you are a very responsible spotter. (stroking myself)

I kind of remember you walking onto the roof.
What the FUTT?
 
PUnmuth@VIE
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RE: US Laws Regarding Aviation Photography

Thu Sep 14, 2006 1:50 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 13):
LAX turning into Nazi Germany.

Hardly comparable eh?
-
 
maiznblu_757
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RE: US Laws Regarding Aviation Photography

Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:01 pm

Quoting Mongorat (Reply 12):

All 3 times I have been out there we were visited. The first two went well. We showed ID's, chit chatted and that was it. This guy was a total arse. From the moment he stopped it was sour. He pulled up, lights flashing, turned off the bike and just shook his head saying no several times. We began talking to him and he didnt like the way WE began the conversation, when in fact it was him with the attitude from the start.



Is it anything that will keep me from returning? No, not at all.

[Edited 2006-09-14 09:03:06]
 
icebird757
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RE: US Laws Regarding Aviation Photography

Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:19 pm

Quoting Futterman (Reply 16):
I kind of remember you walking onto the roof.

Figures someone had to ruin it for us locals. I knew it was only a matter of time. Thanks!!
LGB....where you can watch the grass grow because the traffic is so slow.
 
NIKV69
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RE: US Laws Regarding Aviation Photography

Fri Sep 15, 2006 1:59 am

Quoting PUnmuth@VIE (Reply 17):
Hardly comparable eh?

Well when someone has to delete all their pics that were taken from a public place sure sounds like your on your way to total intimidation.

Quoting Icebird757 (Reply 19):
Figures someone had to ruin it for us locals. I knew it was only a matter of time. Thanks!!

Yep it was all my fault the new manager at the Radisson closed the lounge during the day.  sarcastic 

Let us also remember that the lounge was not your personal spotting location (as much as you wanted to think it was) and was closed because the manager sees it as a insurance issue (rightly so) Get off your high horses already.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
PUnmuth@VIE
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RE: US Laws Regarding Aviation Photography

Fri Sep 15, 2006 3:40 pm

Having to delete photos (as bad as it is for the one concerned no question) being compared to NAZI Germany is a bit far strecth don't you think?


Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 20):
Get off your high horses already

You could start with doing so  Wink
-
 
dc10tim
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RE: US Laws Regarding Aviation Photography

Sat Sep 16, 2006 8:57 am

Obviously US law differs from English law, so I'm not asking any leading questions. In the past I've had the Police bully me at one spot in particular for being on private land, but as it turns out they had no right to do so. Trespass under English law is a civil offence. The land owners could sue me for damages, but hey I only trampled on their grass, and on a well-trodden path I think they'd have a job on their hands.

Quoting Mongorat (Reply 12):
Apparently taking photos a mile down the road at the In & Out park was O.K, as was another "sanctioned" spot called Imperial Hill. But the three of us standing on a public sidewalk was certainly not O.K.

I don't get this. How can they "get you" for taking photos from a public road?

Quoting Mongorat (Reply 12):
Another photographer shooting from this same spot a week or two earlier actually had to delete all the photos from his camera's memory card before being chased away.

Is this legal? Seriously. It's a pity none of us in here practice in the legal profession because this sounds like bull to me.

Quoting Mongorat (Reply 12):
This could and may be the exact reason...private property as Jeff said.

As I've said though, what can the Police do, other than ask you to leave on behalf of the landowner. Is trespass a criminal offence in the US?

All interesting stuff. At the end of the day, I just feel damned if I'm going to have my hobby affected by a few Islamic crackpots (when I'm causing ZERO harm to anyone) and it annoys me.

Regards,

Tim.
Obviously missing something....
 
JohnJ
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RE: US Laws Regarding Aviation Photography

Wed Sep 20, 2006 4:30 am

This thread details an excellent example of something that would be worth fighting for as the railfans did:
Now It's SLC PD's Turn: Photos Illegal (by FlightShadow Sep 19 2006 in Civil Aviation)
 
thvgjp
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RE: US Laws Regarding Aviation Photography

Thu Sep 21, 2006 1:13 pm

It is your right to photograph planes, if it is your desire, this has been determined by the Supreme Court and various courts in the US via the ACLU lawsuits. I have never been hasseled by the police. It depends on the level of interaction with the officer.I have herad of guys being made to delete images etc. In a severe case I would fight, but fight right. We are fighting ignorance and fear with these officials. No officer pounding a beat wants to ignore a possible terrorist scouting out the airport, so if he sees something out of the ordinary he is going to check it out, no problem with that its his job. Problem occurs when they get pushy and use threats and ejection from property, now is the time to fight and attack their greatest weakness, fear and ignorance. I would simply foward copies of all pertinant Supreme Court opinions to the Head of the Airport, Chief of Police and the main solicitor for the airport seeking dialog. As with the railfans education is our greatest weapon in this battle.
 
jwenting
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RE: US Laws Regarding Aviation Photography

Thu Sep 21, 2006 1:27 pm

It is also the police's duty to investigate every single report they get from people about suspicious activity, and some people get nervous if they see others standing around with cameras, especially if those others are a group.
Rather than having to come back every few minutes when another call comes in of a suspicious group of people on that sidewalk they'll ask you to move on, makes their life easier.
It's really that simple, and if you don't make trouble and start arguing it stays that simple.
They may make up some rule to impress you into leaving if you don't do so voluntarilly, as that's often efficient.

This is not (in most cases, and where it is it's mostly rentacops rather than the real kind) a case of officers abusing their power.

Ask their name and station and file a complaint mentioning that name and time to that station.
I wish I were flying
 
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JeffM
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RE: US Laws Regarding Aviation Photography

Thu Sep 21, 2006 1:46 pm

Quoting THVGJP (Reply 24):
I would simply foward copies of all pertinant Supreme Court opinions to the Head of the Airport, Chief of Police and the main solicitor for the airport seeking dialog.

Can you point us to some legitimate links detailing those rulings?

Quoting THVGJP (Reply 24):
It is your right to photograph planes, if it is your desire,

Sure, if you have permission to be where you're taking them.  Wink
 
NIKV69
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RE: US Laws Regarding Aviation Photography

Thu Sep 21, 2006 9:20 pm

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 25):
It is also the police's duty to investigate every single report they get from people about suspicious activity, and some people get nervous if they see others standing around with cameras, especially if those others are a group.
Rather than having to come back every few minutes when another call comes in of a suspicious group of people on that sidewalk they'll ask you to move on, makes their life easier.
It's really that simple, and if you don't make trouble and start arguing it stays that simple.
They may make up some rule to impress you into leaving if you don't do so voluntarilly, as that's often efficient.

This is not (in most cases, and where it is it's mostly rentacops rather than the real kind) a case of officers abusing their power.

Ask their name and station and file a complaint mentioning that name and time to that station.

Very well said. This really is spot on as too why these cops try to run us off. Very good advice.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
philhyde
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RE: US Laws Regarding Aviation Photography

Fri Sep 22, 2006 2:26 am

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 25):
They may make up some rule to impress you into leaving if you don't do so voluntarilly, as that's often efficient.

This is not (in most cases, and where it is it's mostly rentacops rather than the real kind) a case of officers abusing their power.

I'd say that making up a story is an abuse of power.
Canon junkie - Aviation Nut
 
engineergreg
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RE: US Laws Regarding Aviation Photography

Fri Sep 22, 2006 4:19 am

Unfortunately photography of any kind is becoming more of a challenge here in the US. I was questioned by security while merely carrying a camera in downtown Los Angeles. For some reason anybody with a camera in a public place is associated with the terrorist.

It is usually best to not argue with whom ever approaches you, as that will accomplish nothing in the long run accept raise more apprehension between photographers and law enforcement. However, it is a good idea to peacefully obtain as much information about the officer as possible, such as their name, badge number, agency, etc. and then report to that agency. This is especially important if you suspect the officer has made up a "law" while in the process of trying to do their job.

That being said, do not expect much cooperation from the police department; that is just the name of the game. And if it is a private security agency you are dealing with then you can expect the BS to be proportional to their ego.

Quoting Philhyde (Reply 28):
I'd say that making up a story is an abuse of power.

I concur.
 
chrisair
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RE: US Laws Regarding Aviation Photography

Fri Sep 22, 2006 4:28 pm

Quoting Mongorat (Reply 12):
Another photographer shooting from this same spot a week or two earlier actually had to delete all the photos from his camera's memory card before being chased away.

Whoever did that is an idiot. Don't show your photos to the cop. Maybe it's just me, and perhaps it's because I haven't done any sort of aviation photography outside the fence for several years (early 2002), so I'm a little unfamiliar: but arguing with police is never a good idea. Don't come across as an asshole, don't be rude or mean. Be polite, answer questions truthfully, but stand your ground. Explain that it's a hobby of yours, something that you've been doing for XX years and just leave it at that. It never hurts to say "at Ontario (or whereever) nobody cares. In fact I chatted with a couple LAWA PD guys and they suggested better locations."

Don't be scared of the man with a badge, gun, club and taser--if none of them are being used on you, you're in good shape. (Trust me that taser isn't fun).
 
visityyj
Posts: 380
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RE: US Laws Regarding Aviation Photography

Sat Sep 23, 2006 4:46 am

Quoting DC10Tim (Reply 22):
Quoting Mongorat (Reply 12):
Another photographer shooting from this same spot a week or two earlier actually had to delete all the photos from his camera's memory card before being chased away.

Is this legal? Seriously. It's a pity none of us in here practice in the legal profession because this sounds like bull to me.

Illegal without a court order (warrant), likewise seizing your camera or film. Of course they may try to detain you while they "try" to get a warrant, but that's illegal too absent probable cause. They are bluffing and counting on you not to call them on it; as that would probably take several hours and a visit to the station.

I just wish someone would.
 
dc10tim
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RE: US Laws Regarding Aviation Photography

Sat Sep 23, 2006 8:49 am

Quoting JeffM (Reply 26):
Sure, if you have permission to be where you're taking them.

But if someone does object to you taking photos from their land, what has it to do with the Police?

Quoting Engineergreg (Reply 29):
It is usually best to not argue with whom ever approaches you, as that will accomplish nothing in the long run accept raise more apprehension between photographers and law enforcement.

I agree, but while I'd never be rude to the Police, I don't really care if they have any problem with me being there or not as long as they understand their authority and obligations and don't cross the line. They can very quickly (and in England have the legal powers to do so) obtain whether or not I'm a terrorist, so why the need for all the bull?

Quoting Visityyj (Reply 31):
Illegal without a court order (warrant), likewise seizing your camera or film. Of course they may try to detain you while they "try" to get a warrant, but that's illegal too absent probable cause.

The phrase "probable cause" strikes me as being a bit woolly. In this country, seeing someone at an airport with a camera I doubt in itself would be enough to detain someone under the Terrorism Act for example, but what about in the US with the current state of play?

Regards,

Tim.
Obviously missing something....
 
wnsocal
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RE: US Laws Regarding Aviation Photography

Sun Sep 24, 2006 1:00 am

NIKV69,

YOUR POSTS REALLY ARE GETTING OLD AND YAH THANKS FOR RUINING THE RADDISSON FOR US LAX LOCALS.....WAY TO GO MAN.

WE ASKED THAT VISITORS BE RESPECTFUL OF THE SPOT, BUT NOOOOOOO SOMEONE HAD TO WALK OUT ON THE ROOF, THAT'S WHY THE NEW MANAGER CUT US OFF, BECAUSE OF THE OUT OF TOWNERS.

WNSOCAL
Airline Nut
 
wietse
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RE: US Laws Regarding Aviation Photography

Sun Sep 24, 2006 1:11 am

Quoting Wnsocal (Reply 33):
NIKV69,

YOUR POSTS REALLY ARE GETTING OLD AND YAH THANKS FOR RUINING THE RADDISSON FOR US LAX LOCALS.....WAY TO GO MAN.

WE ASKED THAT VISITORS BE RESPECTFUL OF THE SPOT, BUT NOOOOOOO SOMEONE HAD TO WALK OUT ON THE ROOF, THAT'S WHY THE NEW MANAGER CUT US OFF, BECAUSE OF THE OUT OF TOWNERS.

WNSOCAL

You sir, fail at coming across as a mature person. Cut the capslock please and send a private message to whoever you have beef with. Saves us a lot of headaches from reading capital letters.
Wietse de Graaf
 
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JeffM
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RE: US Laws Regarding Aviation Photography

Sun Sep 24, 2006 3:31 am

Quoting Wnsocal (Reply 33):
WNSOCAL

LOL... Locals are no different then anyone else.

Quoting Wietse (Reply 34):
You sir, fail at coming across as a mature person

Ditto
 
Newark777
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RE: US Laws Regarding Aviation Photography

Sun Sep 24, 2006 3:40 am

Quoting DC10Tim (Reply 32):

But if someone does object to you taking photos from their land, what has it to do with the Police?

If they don't want you taking the pictures, they can contact the police and report you for trespassing.

Harry
Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
 
NIKV69
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RE: US Laws Regarding Aviation Photography

Sun Sep 24, 2006 4:32 am

Quoting Wnsocal (Reply 33):
NIKV69,

YOUR POSTS REALLY ARE GETTING OLD AND YAH THANKS FOR RUINING THE RADDISSON FOR US LAX LOCALS.....WAY TO GO MAN.

WE ASKED THAT VISITORS BE RESPECTFUL OF THE SPOT, BUT NOOOOOOO SOMEONE HAD TO WALK OUT ON THE ROOF, THAT'S WHY THE NEW MANAGER CUT US OFF, BECAUSE OF THE OUT OF TOWNERS.

WNSOCAL

This is laughable at best. Please keep in mind sir that the lounge at the top of the Radisson was far from your personal spotting location and the was closed because the new manager saw it for the insurance risk that is was. Not to mention he didn't want people up there unsupervised. If you want to lay it on me fine, I am one of the only guys that will cop top the fact that I did take a couple of steps up from the smoking area. There are a few here that did the same but don't have the guts to admit it since they want to be knows as responsible spotters.  sarcastic  That being said, you need to jump off this bandwagon that is trying to point blame for the state of the Radisson now. Remember you don't have the right to spot anywhere that is private property.

Quoting JeffM (Reply 35):
LOL... Locals are no different then anyone else.

 checkmark 
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
dc10tim
Posts: 1380
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RE: US Laws Regarding Aviation Photography

Sun Sep 24, 2006 6:04 am

Quoting Newark777 (Reply 36):
If they don't want you taking the pictures, they can contact the police and report you for trespassing.

Harry

The question I was raising is what in the US can the Police do in such an instance?

Tim.
Obviously missing something....
 
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JeffM
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RE: US Laws Regarding Aviation Photography

Sun Sep 24, 2006 9:39 am

Quoting DC10Tim (Reply 38):
what in the US can the Police do in such an instance?

Arrest you for tresspassing if you don't leave when asked. Come on Tim, is this that hard of a concept?
 
dacman
Posts: 380
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2000 9:22 am

RE: US Laws Regarding Aviation Photography

Sun Sep 24, 2006 11:18 am

WOW!!!

It's back to the Raddisson posts again I see.

Lets not open the fresh wounds and throw salt on them.....please.

NIKV69,

As for you, please reserve your comments on LAX as you are not from here. I know a number of locals who are very upset with the folks who ruined the spot and are just venting their frustration.

You seem to only have negative comments to add to this forum as I found out with my post in the photography forum a couple weeks ago.....you are definately not on my Christmas Card list.

Nuff said.

Michael
Dacman
LAX/LGB Local
"Airliner Photography is not a crime"
 
NIKV69
Posts: 10893
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

RE: US Laws Regarding Aviation Photography

Sun Sep 24, 2006 11:41 am

Quoting Dacman (Reply 40):
NIKV69,

As for you, please reserve your comments on LAX as you are not from here. I know a number of locals who are very upset with the folks who ruined the spot and are just venting their frustration.

Do I have to get Dave to post his pic again? The one of the three guys way out on the roof? Seems they were locals I'm told. For the last time nobody spoiled it for anyone. Read the original post about the new manager or better yet go talk to him. Instead of trying to make people the fall guys for your misfortune, which is nothing more than someone telling you that you can't shoot from a location that happens to be private property.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
dacman
Posts: 380
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2000 9:22 am

RE: US Laws Regarding Aviation Photography

Sun Sep 24, 2006 12:50 pm

NIKV69,

WOW!!!! WOW!!! You are certainly defensive about this subject and you definately have a thing about "Private Property" land owner are we?

None of the old time locals I know, which I know most, even went to that location as it wasn't that great anyway, a one time spot by just about everyones standards.

Must have been "temp locals"........hehehehehehehehehehe.

I think you need a "Time Out".

Nuff said!

Michael
Dacman
LAX/LGB Local
"Airliner Photography is not a crime"
 
NIKV69
Posts: 10893
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

RE: US Laws Regarding Aviation Photography

Sun Sep 24, 2006 8:40 pm

Quoting Dacman (Reply 42):
NIKV69,

WOW!!!! WOW!!! You are certainly defensive about this subject and you definately have a thing about "Private Property" land owner are we?

Not defensive at all, just tired of the smoke screen you and others here are trying to create as far this subject goes. I don't have a thing about private property but I do respect it as just that, private property. I don't view it as a privelege like many spotters both local and our of town did to just go up there and shoot. When we were allowed up there is was fine. Now we must respect the managers decision and contrary to popular belief it wasn't "the few that ruined it for the others" That is biggest nonsense.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
visityyj
Posts: 380
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2000 7:23 am

RE: US Laws Regarding Aviation Photography

Tue Sep 26, 2006 4:32 am

Quoting DC10Tim (Reply 32):
The phrase "probable cause" strikes me as being a bit woolly. In this country, seeing someone at an airport with a camera I doubt in itself would be enough to detain someone under the Terrorism Act for example, but what about in the US with the current state of play?

There is no US equivalent of a Section 44 stop, so the application of any laws is up to the local jurisdiction. And there is absolutely zero consistency, other than every cop feels empowered by the "9/11 card" to do whatever they want upon seeing something "suspicious".

There are no Federal or State laws prohibiting photography in or from public areas at airports (with the caveats re: trespassing previously discussed).
There may be local bylaws I suppose, but I am not aware of any. None of which matters to Deputy Bubba if he feels like bullying someone that day.

If you do feel like standing up to him, all you can do is ask politely at every stage things like "can you tell me which law that is ?" or "do you not need a warrant for this ?" and so on. But I wouldn't recommend that approach unless you have a LOT of time to spare.

That said, there are many airports in the US where you should have no trouble at all. Like I said, it's pretty much a local thing, which is why asking here or on similar boards about a the situation at a specific airport is always a good idea.

[Edited 2006-09-25 21:33:12]
 
dc10tim
Posts: 1380
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 12:21 am

RE: US Laws Regarding Aviation Photography

Tue Sep 26, 2006 5:13 am

Quoting JeffM (Reply 39):
Arrest you for tresspassing if you don't leave when asked. Come on Tim, is this that hard of a concept?

I'm just trying to establish whether you can be arrested for trespass alone as it is a civil matter here.

Quoting Visityyj (Reply 44):
There is no US equivalent of a Section 44 stop, so the application of any laws is up to the local jurisdiction. And there is absolutely zero consistency, other than every cop feels empowered by the "9/11 card" to do whatever they want upon seeing something "suspicious".

I don't have a problem with Section 44, as it clearly states what is and isn't acceptable, but even so the whole Terrorism Act is still open to abuse as Section 41 says basically anyone who is reasonably suspected of being a terrorist can be arrested. Fortunately, no matter how much the Police are irritated by your activities here, I think they'd be hard pushed to claim they thought you were a terrorist for taking photos.

Quoting Visityyj (Reply 44):
If you do feel like standing up to him, all you can do is ask politely at every stage things like "can you tell me which law that is ?" or "do you not need a warrant for this ?" and so on. But I wouldn't recommend that approach unless you have a LOT of time to spare.

This worries me actually as I'm looking forward to getting across the Atlantic, hopefully before too long, but I can just see me spending at least one night in a cell  Smile

Regards,

Tim.
Obviously missing something....
 
Newark777
Posts: 8284
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 6:23 am

RE: US Laws Regarding Aviation Photography

Tue Sep 26, 2006 5:16 am

Quoting DC10Tim (Reply 45):

I'm just trying to establish whether you can be arrested for trespass alone as it is a civil matter here.

If you are asked to leave by the landowners, and refuse, they will most likely call the cops. When the cops get involved, they will ask you to leave in accordance to the landowner's request. Refuse to cooperate with the police, and you get a free ride courtesy of the PD.

Harry
Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
 
domokun
Posts: 196
Joined: Sun Sep 24, 2006 5:46 pm

RE: US Laws Regarding Aviation Photography

Tue Sep 26, 2006 8:56 am

This is a long thread and I am almost ready to leave work (yes, I am bored) so I only got half way through; however, reading many of these replies and stories made me think.

If the police arrest you, it sucks but so be it. A county attorney, at least any many busy cities, will not want to waste their precious time on people taking pictures. Instead, they usually want to focus their time on other crimes.

Now, this isn't necessary a license to do whatever; if worst comes to worst it is unlikely that you will actually be charged with anything.

I suppose this is a good spot for a story. This last weekend I was at the Museum of Flight at BFI. Right next to the parking lot is the military ramp. Right now a brand new 737 is parked in primer (waiting MMA conversion?). In any case, there is a "security" officer there driving circles waiting and honking/yelling at photographers shooting pictures of the military ramp. Well, I went and stood there and watched the ramp instead. The security guy came up to me and told me to look away. Seriously, he told me to look the other direction. This is, of course, in light of the fact that the fence along the road and buildings are opaque. He threatened to call the King County Sheriff; I told him to go for it.

In the end he just drove away.

If security were a serious problem, they would actually erect a fence which one could not see straight through. Better yet, they would not park military aircraft in a populated city.

Security is a state of mind IMHO.
 
DB777
Posts: 864
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2001 1:16 pm

RE: US Laws Regarding Aviation Photography

Tue Sep 26, 2006 2:05 pm

Quoting Mongorat (Reply 12):
Another photographer shooting from this same spot a week or two earlier actually had to delete all the photos from his camera's memory card before being chased away.

That's illegal as hell and any photog who would do it is a pushover.

Has anyone read this article in USA Today from last month? I've printed it, and his linked PDF, and carry them in my camera bag just in case I might need them. All aviation photogs should read it and print it.

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/columni...006-08-11-photography-rights_x.htm

Don
Photographing aircraft since the Earth was flat and on Airliners.net since #338
 
domokun
Posts: 196
Joined: Sun Sep 24, 2006 5:46 pm

RE: US Laws Regarding Aviation Photography

Tue Sep 26, 2006 2:16 pm

Quoting DB777 (Reply 48):

Has anyone read this article in USA Today from last month? I've printed it, and his linked PDF, and carry them in my camera bag just in case I might need them. All aviation photogs should read it and print it.

Good article - thanks.

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