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jid
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RE: New Contrast Limits?

Thu Sep 14, 2006 7:16 pm

Hi David, well they are all dark and lacking in contrast. They should not be too hard to fix. Check your histogram first and you will see that there is a gap on the right. Correct your levels to bring the gram over to the right edge, this will lighten the image. Then add contrast either by making your curve 'S' shaped or by using the contrast control.
Here is a version of one of your images, the dark bars are your original


Hope this helps .. Jid
G7EPN is back after 15 years! Operating all Bands 80mtrs -> 70cms QRZ DX
 
timdegroot
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RE: New Contrast Limits?

Thu Sep 14, 2006 7:17 pm

There is a tool in photoshop called "levels". I suggest you take a look at it, it will solve these problems Wink

Tim
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aero145
Posts: 2867
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RE: New Contrast Limits?

Thu Sep 14, 2006 7:27 pm

Quoting Jid (Reply 1):
Hi David, well they are all dark and lacking in contrast. They should not be too hard to fix. Check your histogram first and you will see that there is a gap on the right. Correct your levels to bring the gram over to the right edge, this will lighten the image. Then add contrast either by making your curve 'S' shaped or by using the contrast control.
Here is a version of one of your images, the dark bars are your original

Thanks for this, Jid. I'll try to fix the photos by using your and

Quoting TimdeGroot (Reply 2):
There is a tool in photoshop called "levels". I suggest you take a look at it, it will solve these problems

Tim's methods.

Regards,
David
 
INNflight
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RE: New Contrast Limits?

Thu Sep 14, 2006 7:35 pm

Quoting Jid (Reply 1):
Then add contrast either by making your curve 'S' shaped or by using the contrast control

I strongly recommend to learn how to use the curves correctly as the brightness / contrast tool takes away a lot of data from the file.

Quoting Aero145 (Reply 3):
Tim's methods.

Yes... he's right!?
Jet Visuals
 
aero145
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RE: New Contrast Limits?

Thu Sep 14, 2006 7:38 pm

Quoting INNflight (Reply 4):
I strongly recommend to learn how to use the curves correctly as the brightness / contrast tool takes away a lot of data from the file.

Roger. I use the Brightness / Contrast tool very little.

Quoting INNflight (Reply 4):
Yes... he's right!?

Uhh??
 
aero145
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RE: New Contrast Limits?

Thu Sep 14, 2006 8:11 pm

Here comes a new edit of TF-BTH. Any better?

Big version: Width: 1200 Height: 800 File size: 877kb


And TF-FTU and TF-ISA, what do I have to do with them to get them better (maybe ISA isn't salvagable, then just FTU)?

Regards,
David
 
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jid
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RE: New Contrast Limits?

Thu Sep 14, 2006 9:06 pm

Still a bit dark for me David,

Move the right arrow on your level control until it just touches the edge of the graph, then move the center slider left a touch. Then add contrast, idealy with the curve control ('S' shaped curve).

Jid
G7EPN is back after 15 years! Operating all Bands 80mtrs -> 70cms QRZ DX
 
aero145
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RE: New Contrast Limits?

Thu Sep 14, 2006 9:17 pm

Better, Jid?

Big version: Width: 1200 Height: 800 File size: 913kb
 
chris78cpr
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RE: New Contrast Limits?

Thu Sep 14, 2006 9:24 pm

Learn the levels and curves tools and you should be able to fix most exposure programs.

However when lightening so much you may find higher noise levels in your image.

If all your images need this much correction look at your exposure in camera as it seems like you are underexposing your shots.

Chris
5D2/7D/1D2(soon to be a 1Dx) 17-40L/24-105L/70-200F2.8L/100-400L/24F1.4LII/50F1.2L/85F1.2LII
 
aero145
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RE: New Contrast Limits?

Thu Sep 14, 2006 9:32 pm

Quoting Chris78cpr (Reply 9):
Learn the levels and curves tools and you should be able to fix most exposure programs.

I'll try my best.

Quoting Chris78cpr (Reply 9):
However when lightening so much you may find higher noise levels in your image.

I know that.  Sad

Quoting Chris78cpr (Reply 9):
If all your images need this much correction look at your exposure in camera as it seems like you are underexposing your shots.

I always underexpose because I don't feel good when underexposing in Photoshop. I usually do 2 steps down, should I maybe put only 1?
 
chris78cpr
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RE: New Contrast Limits?

Thu Sep 14, 2006 9:42 pm

2 stops!!!!!!!

When im shooting, unless it's a really sunny day i usually overexpose by a third or leave it standard.

I now shoot RAW which is perfect for akward exposure days.

I would NEVER underexpose more than 1/3 - 2/3 of a stop when shooting aviation!

Chris
5D2/7D/1D2(soon to be a 1Dx) 17-40L/24-105L/70-200F2.8L/100-400L/24F1.4LII/50F1.2L/85F1.2LII
 
timdegroot
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RE: New Contrast Limits?

Thu Sep 14, 2006 9:43 pm

Quoting Aero145 (Reply 10):
I always underexpose because I don't feel good when underexposing in Photoshop.

But you overexpose in Photoshop as shown by these recent examples. Fail to understand why you would underexpose in-camera, only to overexpose again in PS...

Tim
Alderman Exit
 
linco22
Posts: 1278
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RE: New Contrast Limits?

Thu Sep 14, 2006 9:47 pm

Quoting Aero145 (Reply 10):
I always underexpose because I don't feel good when underexposing in Photoshop. I usually do 2 steps down, should I maybe put only 1?

I would try to nail it straight away. various factors will have to be considered. Shooting an all white fuselage on a very sunny day will take a little care to get right. Take some readings around you, see what you will need to set. It is very important for me to do that.

Regards
Colin  Smile
 
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jid
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RE: New Contrast Limits?

Thu Sep 14, 2006 9:48 pm

Well it is still a little dark for my liking but others may disagree. I would agree with young Chris that you should try and get your exposure right straight out of the camera, the less processing you can do to an image the better.

Jid
G7EPN is back after 15 years! Operating all Bands 80mtrs -> 70cms QRZ DX
 
aero145
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RE: New Contrast Limits?

Thu Sep 14, 2006 9:57 pm

Quoting Chris78cpr (Reply 11):
I now shoot RAW which is perfect for akward exposure days.

You NOW shoot RAW? You've been shooting 2 years with the 1D Mark II on JPEG always?  Wow!

Quoting TimdeGroot (Reply 12):
But you overexpose in Photoshop as shown by these recent examples. Fail to understand why you would underexpose in-camera, only to overexpose again in PS...

Please check the newest photo of TF-TAL, taken by Gisli Bergur Sigurdsson. I edited that shot for him, he took it in RAW, so I could manage to save it, but it was so very much over-exposed on my screen (0-+ exposure from the camera).

Quoting Linco22 (Reply 13):
Shooting an all white fuselage on a very sunny day will take a little care to get right.

Hmm. When I take photos of an all white fuselage on a sunny day, I usually expose down by 2-3 stops...  confused 

Quoting Jid (Reply 14):
Well it is still a little dark for my liking but others may disagree.

Yeh, I disagree.  stirthepot 

Quoting Jid (Reply 14):
I would agree with young Chris that you should try and get your exposure right straight out of the camera, the less processing you can do to an image the better.

I'll keep that in mind. Little sun these days, very disturbing.
 
timdegroot
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RE: New Contrast Limits?

Thu Sep 14, 2006 9:59 pm

Quoting Aero145 (Reply 15):
Please check the newest photo of TF-TAL, taken by Gisli Bergur Sigurdsson. I edited that shot for him, he took it in RAW, so I could manage to save it, but it was so very much over-exposed on my screen (0-+ exposure from the camera).

But that's not the case with your photos. Various experienced photographer are telling you to get the exposure right in-camera. if you don't want to listen, fine.

Tim
Alderman Exit
 
aero145
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RE: New Contrast Limits?

Thu Sep 14, 2006 10:00 pm

Quoting TimdeGroot (Reply 16):
Various experienced photographer are telling you to get the exposure right in-camera. if you don't want to listen, fine.

I didn't say I didn't want to listen, but in my case, maybe my 20D isn't at all in order. I don't know, I don't know how to check.
 
PUnmuth@VIE
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RE: New Contrast Limits?

Thu Sep 14, 2006 10:01 pm

Quoting Aero145 (Reply 15):
2-3 stops...

Are you really talking full stops here or are you talking about stpes. What ever this is on Canon. On my camera this would be a 2/3 of a full stop which sounds a little bit better. But 2 - 3 full stops doesn't sound good
-
 
thowman
Posts: 342
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RE: New Contrast Limits?

Thu Sep 14, 2006 10:02 pm

Take heed of the wise words of JeffM

Get an incident meter!! Big grin

Jeff, your my technical photography role-model and photoshop guru... lol  Wink

Andy
 
timdegroot
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RE: New Contrast Limits?

Thu Sep 14, 2006 10:02 pm

By bracketing. Take some shots and compare them.

Sorry if I have to laugh David, but again you have problems with photos, and again you assume your equipment is at fault Smile

Tim
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aero145
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RE: New Contrast Limits?

Thu Sep 14, 2006 10:07 pm

Quoting PUnmuth@VIE (Reply 18):
Are you really talking full stops here or are you talking about stpes. What ever this is on Canon. On my camera this would be a 2/3 of a full stop which sounds a little bit better. But 2 - 3 full stops doesn't sound good

Ooopsy! I of course ment steps, not stops.

Sorrry!!

Quoting TimdeGroot (Reply 20):
By bracketing. Take some shots and compare them.

Roger!

Quoting TimdeGroot (Reply 20):
Sorry if I have to laugh David, but again you have problems with photos, and again you assume your equipment is at fault

Laugh as you wish, I couldn't care less.
 
IL76
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RE: New Contrast Limits?

Thu Sep 14, 2006 10:11 pm

The 20D generally underexposes, just as the 10D generally overexposes. Underexposing 2-3 stops on a sunny day would lead to incredibly dark photos.
Can you post an untreated JPG perhaps + exif (only resized, no manipulation done in the RAW converter or anything)?

Ed
 
aero145
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RE: New Contrast Limits?

Thu Sep 14, 2006 10:22 pm

Quoting IL76 (Reply 22):
Can you post an untreated JPG perhaps + exif (only resized, no manipulation done in the RAW converter or anything)?

Yes, Ed.

I will: Convert from RAW, resize to 800 pixels wide.

Two shots.

Regards,
David
 
aero145
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RE: New Contrast Limits?

Fri Sep 15, 2006 1:19 am

http://www.airliners.net/procphotos/...F-ARC-Tiger-0344-09092006-sRGB.jpg

Now it's getting strange.

Where are those whites that the rejection message was talking about?

If I put more contrast, it will be rejected for contrast...

Where are the edges of acceptable contrast?

[Edited 2006-09-14 18:26:59]
 
aero145
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RE: New Contrast Limits?

Fri Sep 15, 2006 1:31 am

Here comes a contrast edit of the Tiger.

Any better? Too much contrast? Still too little contrast?

http://img476.imageshack.us/img476/7...rctiger034409092006contrastli0.jpg
 
aviopic
Posts: 2423
Joined: Sat Mar 13, 2004 7:52 pm

RE: New Contrast Limits?

Fri Sep 15, 2006 5:01 am

Ok..... lets try to improve things with one of your images.

http://www.honders.net/tmp/David_1.jpg

In the upper right corner you will find the histogram.
Ideally it should start in the left corner(dark) and end in the right corner(highlights).
In this case we see that the dark is clipped(it climbs the wall  Smile ) and there is nothing in the right corner(an easy dark rejection).

So what to do about it.
As suggested you could go to "the levels" straight away(nothing wrong with that) but my personal way of working is to add a layer.
Go to "Layer" then "New adjustment layer" followed by "levels" click ok.
Now you will have an extra layer on which the levels can be adjusted.
It will look like this:
http://www.honders.net/tmp/David_2.jpg

Almost everything you want can be done right here and basically you never need "Brightness, contrast, shadow/highlight" as they are all based on the levels anyway so you might just do it here without going anywhere else.
Correct the highlights with the right slider on the top bar, on the histogram (you can see the changes straight away) and move the left(dark) slider on the bottom bar to the right a bit to cure the clipping.

Some other features:
with the slider in the middle you can change the "grey point".
moving both sliders on the top bar closer together will increase contrast, the ones on the bottom bar will decrease the contrast.


Then what remains are some personal notes for you.
Most of the people around here learned everything the hard way by studying, buying books and probably most important shot thousand and thousand of photos......... and trust me it took them years to get it right.
You on the other hand only have to listen and you get your info for free.
So temper your voice a little bit please and be greatful.
Now start practising with the levels tool and enjoy yourself.

Another idea might be to buy yourself a good book about photography.
For example when you are shooting at ISO 200 and under exposing 1 stop which you have to correct later on(with levels) to the correct exposure your are left with an effective ISO of 400 which might explain the noise you complained about  Wink
The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist
 
chris78cpr
Posts: 2733
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2004 7:44 am

RE: New Contrast Limits?

Fri Sep 15, 2006 5:11 am

Quoting Aero145 (Reply 15):
You NOW shoot RAW? You've been shooting 2 years with the 1D Mark II on JPEG always?

Yes, i NOW shoot Raw.

Just because i own a 1dmkii does not mean i have to shoot RAW. Most of the stuff i shoot is documentary and journalism and sports which involve large volumes of images and a quick turnaround. I do not have the time to process large amounts of images when they need to be sent out to clients within hours of the end of the event.

I now shoot RAW mostly, yet when i shoot large events and such, i shoot jpeg still.

David, i please ask you to listen to just one thing im gonna say.

You are having problems with your images, screeners, photographers and most other people have offered a huge selection of helpfull advice. Please try and take some of it and learn from it. Dont be pre occupied with what i do or how i shoot or how anyone else shoots. Worry about your gear, your shooting and your pictures, take our advice and try and use it to be a better photographer.

Chris
5D2/7D/1D2(soon to be a 1Dx) 17-40L/24-105L/70-200F2.8L/100-400L/24F1.4LII/50F1.2L/85F1.2LII
 
aero145
Posts: 2867
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 4:59 am

RE: New Contrast Limits?

Fri Sep 15, 2006 6:13 am

Quoting Chris78cpr (Reply 27):
Yes, i NOW shoot Raw.

Congrats! Big grin

Quoting Chris78cpr (Reply 27):
Just because i own a 1dmkii does not mean i have to shoot RAW. Most of the stuff i shoot is documentary and journalism and sports which involve large volumes of images and a quick turnaround. I do not have the time to process large amounts of images when they need to be sent out to clients within hours of the end of the event.

Gotcha!

Quoting Chris78cpr (Reply 27):
You are having problems with your images, screeners, photographers and most other people have offered a huge selection of helpfull advice. Please try and take some of it and learn from it.

I was just using the newest methods people were telling me to use in this chat. They happened to work VERY well!

Quoting Chris78cpr (Reply 27):
Dont be pre occupied with what i do or how i shoot or how anyone else shoots.

Look:

Quoting Chris78cpr (Reply 27):
Most of the stuff i shoot is documentary and journalism and sports which involve large volumes of images and a quick turnaround.



Quoting Aviopic (Reply 26):
Aviopic.

Willem.

Thank you very much for that post! Just by seeing you in this thread talking about histogram, I tried to use it, and it worked so well... So, I'm very happy with ya'll because of the help you gave me.

Quoting Aviopic (Reply 26):
For example when you are shooting at ISO 200 and under exposing 1 stop which you have to correct later on(with levels) to the correct exposure your are left with an effective ISO of 400 which might explain the noise you complained about Wink

 rotfl  I understand. But however, I almost never shoot ISO 200. Big grin
 
lasham
Crew
Posts: 214
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RE: New Contrast Limits?

Fri Sep 15, 2006 6:29 am

Hi David

Go and buy a film camera put some slide film in it a take some shots. You will soon find out what under & over exp is! You will also find that shots in poor light will be slides for the bin.
Try to forget about photoshop & curves, levels. Get to know how a camera works and its not rocket science but a simple thing with only a few basic rules of light & time!

Your missing the basic skills.

Tony
No sun no fun
 
aero145
Posts: 2867
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 4:59 am

RE: New Contrast Limits?

Fri Sep 15, 2006 6:39 am

Quoting Lasham (Reply 29):
Go and buy a film camera put some slide film in it a take some shots. You will soon find out what under & over exp is! You will also find that shots in poor light will be slides for the bin.
Try to forget about photoshop & curves, levels. Get to know how a camera works and its not rocket science but a simple thing with only a few basic rules of light & time!

In a drawer behind me, rests a Canon EOS 500N film camera, without any film. There are two slides that have to be processed, one Kodachrome, one Elite-Chrome. As of my laziness, I haven't sent the Kodachrome to England, and I haven't either gone with the Elite-Chrome to process here in Reykjavik. I hope they did come out well, I tried to have the exposure in the middle (0+-).

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