AdamWright
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Airlines Expect Us To Give The Photos Away

Wed Oct 11, 2006 12:09 am

I got an email from Frontier Airlines conerning photo usage... the message is as follows:

I am a reliability analyst for Frontier Airlines and I am writing to you and several other Airliners.net photographers to get permission to use some of your photos in our monthly Reliability & Statistical Analysis Report.

Over the last six years, I have asked for and generously received permission from many Airliners.net photographers to use their photos. The photos have been used in various ways within this report; such as cover pages, section cover pages and backgrounds for graphs and charts.

The report is produced by this department and is a statistical analysis of the reliability of our fleets. It is primarily for Frontier, but we do send electronic copies to a few of our vendors who need some of the data. Only four black and white hardcopies are printed with two going to the FAA and two for file. Parts of the report are used in a Powerpoint presentation for our monthly Reliability Board meeting.

Due to the proprietary nature of some of the data in the report, we cannot send you a complete copy of the report. When we use one of your photos I would, however, be able to e-mail a .pdf file of its use if you so wish.

Some photographers have asked for some sort of compensation, such as: money, passes or model aircraft. Unfortunately, we are not able to provide any such compensation. Photo credit is always included when we use a photo. The report is not particularly exciting and we have found that photos are a great way to hold people’s attention. Frontier does not, has not and will not use any photo for which permission has been given, for any commercial, economic or marketing purposes.

Since airliners.net e-mail does not allow attachments, I cannot include an example of how photos have been used in the past. If you'd like to see how your photos may be used, please send an email address to which I can send a .pdf attachment

Please let me know at your earliest convenience if you are willing to give us permission to use your photographs.

Sincerely,


It just burns me up that its come to the point where the AIRLINES THEMSELVES are expecting us to hand the pictures over to them.

Comments?

-Adam
 
Smalbany
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RE: Airlines Expect Us To Give The Photos Away

Wed Oct 11, 2006 12:15 am

Emails are cheap. Can't blame them for trying.

We, as photographers, are not obligated to say yes.

I have gotten a couple of requests from Colgan Airlines. When I ask for a fee, they either decline or I don't even hear back from them. I don't take it personally - the guy at the other end is just trying to do his job.

It would help if every photographer always asked for a fee in such cases - but you can't rely on that.

In the mean time, I'm not quitting my day job ...
 
Rotate
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RE: Airlines Expect Us To Give The Photos Away

Wed Oct 11, 2006 12:15 am

Pretty easy .... : No Compensation = No Photousage !

But I am pretty sure they will find someone who gives his photo away for free.

Robin
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ptrjong
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RE: Airlines Expect Us To Give The Photos Away

Wed Oct 11, 2006 12:26 am

Well, you can frown upon the fact that they're not offering any compensation, because, even though it's just for an internal report, they're admitting that illustrating it is of some importance to them.

But at least they're asking permission, and not playing any games. They're not expecting you to hand your pictures over; you can say yes or no. I can't see much issue with this letter.

Peter Smile
The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
 
skidmarks
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RE: Airlines Expect Us To Give The Photos Away

Wed Oct 11, 2006 12:28 am

Try asking for flights, it works for me. If they think they can get your picture for a couple of free tickets (which can be worth a lot more than the pics!) then go for it. Otherwise use your discretion.

Andy  old 
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ThierryD
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RE: Airlines Expect Us To Give The Photos Away

Wed Oct 11, 2006 12:34 am

Quoting AdamWright (Thread starter):
Frontier does not, has not and will not use any photo for which permission has been given, for any commercial, economic or marketing purposes.

They don't make money with it. So why ask for compensation?
I'll be honest: I wouldn't ask any compensation in this case.
But on the other hand they might then remember you if they'll need photos for a commercial use in the future...

Thierry
"Go ahead...make my day"
 
NIKV69
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RE: Airlines Expect Us To Give The Photos Away

Wed Oct 11, 2006 12:38 am

I got one better for you. G4 emailed me few months ago and wanted the exclusive rights to one of my pics here for use to make posters to hang in their offices and use on their site. I gave them a great price for complete rights of the pic and they wouldn't pay a dime. They gave me some excuse that they are not a big airline. Typical. Well they can use someone else's photo then. What most if not all these airlines think that since this is a hobby we don't deserve compensation. They need to think again.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
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ptrjong
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RE: Airlines Expect Us To Give The Photos Away

Wed Oct 11, 2006 12:41 am

Quoting Skidmarks (Reply 4):
Try asking for flights, it works for me.

 checkmark 
Paying you money would involve talking to their bosses for many airline officials, while they're able to put you on a flight just like that. At least that seems to be my experience.

Flights are not explictely mentioned among the things Frontier cannot offer, BTW. Or are 'passes' tickets? If not, maybe there's a door being left open here?
The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
 
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ptrjong
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RE: Airlines Expect Us To Give The Photos Away

Wed Oct 11, 2006 12:50 am

Quoting ThierryD (Reply 5):
They don't make money with it

I don't entirely agree with that:

Quoting AdamWright (Thread starter):
The report is not particularly exciting and we have found that photos are a great way to hold people’s attention.

Which is ultimately aimed at having the company function better and thus make more money. Of course, it's in a entirely different league than nationwide billboards.
The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
 
Lanas
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RE: Airlines Expect Us To Give The Photos Away

Wed Oct 11, 2006 2:33 am

Quoting AdamWright (Thread starter):
It just burns me up that its come to the point where the AIRLINES THEMSELVES are expecting us to hand the pictures over to them.



Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 3):
But at least they're asking permission, and not playing any games. They're not expecting you to hand your pictures over; you can say yes or no.

True. I agree with the latter as a response to the first quote. They have explained their terms to you, it´s on you to accept or decline them.

Quoting ThierryD (Reply 5):
They don't make money with it. So why ask for compensation?

I think you´re right. It´s an internal report, not bound for commercial use, so in my case I wouldn´t ask for a compensation. However I would like to receive a copy (in this case a .pdf one) where the credit for the photograph is stated.

Something that comes into my mind is the following: How can a simple pic be so necessary for a Reliability & Statistics report? Is it just because of some decorative issue, or to just draw people´s attention, as the letter states?

Cheers!
Lanas.-
"Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens." J.R.R. Tolkien
 
D L X
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RE: Airlines Expect Us To Give The Photos Away

Wed Oct 11, 2006 2:40 am

Quoting ThierryD (Reply 5):
I'll be honest: I wouldn't ask any compensation in this case.

Same here. At least not monetary. I've been asked a couple times for use of my photos (not as much as you heavy hitters though!), and I've decided to give them for free when it will be personal or extremely limited use. Quite simply, they're not going to pay money for this, and if I say no, someone else will say yes. What's it worth anyway when it's only going to be used internally or for someone's personal noncommercial use? $5? BFD.

However, I would ask for permission to shoot their photos from a more advantageous geographic position...

D
 
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clickhappy
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RE: Airlines Expect Us To Give The Photos Away

Wed Oct 11, 2006 2:50 am

This is the kind of request that you can really think outside the box on and get some creative ideas.

I got to fly jumpseat on a repositioning flight for one airline, another airline owes me a tour of their MX facilities (with photos, be sure to specify) and a tour of one of their VIP 727s.

I have a hard time charging someone if it is a not-for-profit use. But each photog is different.
 
TS
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RE: Airlines Expect Us To Give The Photos Away

Wed Oct 11, 2006 3:12 am

Quoting ThierryD (Reply 5):
They don't make money with it. So why ask for compensation?



Quoting Lanas (Reply 9):
It´s an internal report, not bound for commercial use, so in my case I wouldn´t ask for a compensation.

Really? Well even internal reports are for business use, & you know why they do their business? To make money. I'd ask for money or flight coupons, otherwise I wouldn't grant permission. They very likely will try with other photographers, but at least you didn't back off. Big grin

Thomas
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D L X
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RE: Airlines Expect Us To Give The Photos Away

Wed Oct 11, 2006 3:19 am

Quoting TS (Reply 12):
but at least you didn't back off.

And that's all you gained, in my opinion.
 
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ptrjong
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RE: Airlines Expect Us To Give The Photos Away

Wed Oct 11, 2006 3:45 am

If you can do someone a personal favour by giving away a picture, why not. It's obviously not a big deal.

But I wouldn't feel like I were doing someone a personal favor here - not even the employee requesting the picture. It's a faceless commerial organization that wants to use it. I feel it should do SOMETHING in return - if only enable you to shoot some other nice pictures, as Royal suggests, which it could then use next year.
The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
 
paulinbna
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RE: Airlines Expect Us To Give The Photos Away

Wed Oct 11, 2006 1:27 pm

I got the same email. Frontier should at least give away some thing for this.

Quoting AdamWright (Thread starter):
Some photographers have asked for some sort of compensation, such as: money, passes or model aircraft. Unfortunately, we are not able to provide any such compensation.

No passes or anything at all.

I once sold a picture to company for the same kind of thing and got a bag and some other things from them. Frontier should at least offer some thing like this.
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DLKAPA
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RE: Airlines Expect Us To Give The Photos Away

Wed Oct 11, 2006 1:50 pm

Glad to see I'm not the only person who got the e-mail, and I'm especially glad to see that I'm not the only person who declined.
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
aussieaviator
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RE: Airlines Expect Us To Give The Photos Away

Wed Oct 11, 2006 6:03 pm

Personally, I would be honoured for an airline to ask for use of a photograph I took - without expecting payment in return.  Smile
This in itself, is a form of compliment for a job well done.

I am only a low entry novice in the World of photography - however, I have had about three images published in well known Australian aviation journals, for which I received a 12 month subscription to each. This is enough compensation for me!

Breach of copyright is another issue all together.

I say - just be happy that your photographs are of significant quality for an airline to ask for its use. If you get some form of remuneration - then that's just icing on the cake.  Smile

Happy photography !

Graham Slingsby
Australia
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Gary2880
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RE: Airlines Expect Us To Give The Photos Away

Wed Oct 11, 2006 8:21 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 10):
I would ask for permission to shoot their photos from a more advantageous geographic position...

Nice way of putting it, ill remember that  Wink
Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel :- Samuel Johnson
 
INNflight
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RE: Airlines Expect Us To Give The Photos Away

Wed Oct 11, 2006 9:05 pm

Quoting Gary2880 (Reply 18):
Quoting D L X (Reply 10):
I would ask for permission to shoot their photos from a more advantageous geographic position...

Nice way of putting it, ill remember that

I think that falls under (ramp / apron) passes?  Smile
Jet Visuals
 
D L X
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RE: Airlines Expect Us To Give The Photos Away

Wed Oct 11, 2006 10:54 pm

Quoting INNflight (Reply 19):
I think that falls under (ramp / apron) passes?

Oh, I think you can be creative here.
Ramp, apron, cockpit, empty cabin, hangar, chase plane, etc. There are places at DCA that must have excellent views of action that I don't have access to without permission. Like maybe a terrace at the airline's office. This is the kind of stuff that would cost them nothing (or nominally) but would make me very happy, thus providing me with a benefit.
 
767Lover
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RE: Airlines Expect Us To Give The Photos Away

Thu Oct 12, 2006 5:39 am

Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 14):
I feel it should do SOMETHING in return

How about continuing to allow you to photograph their aircraft without charging you with copyright infringement? Technically their logo could be considered protected material. Exception would be if the photo were taken as part of a news story (i.e., the plane had crashed).
 
DLKAPA
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RE: Airlines Expect Us To Give The Photos Away

Thu Oct 12, 2006 6:00 am

Quoting 767Lover (Reply 21):
How about continuing to allow you to photograph their aircraft without charging you with copyright infringement? Technically their logo could be considered protected material. Exception would be if the photo were taken as part of a news story (i.e., the plane had crashed).

That is an extremely grey area here, I believe the consensus is that as long as we're photographing from a public place, we own the copyrights to our photographs and nobody can use them in any way without our permission, however this doesn't extend to the logos on the planes we photograph, we don't own them and thus we can't for other than journalistic purposes sell our photos in such a manner that the people owning the logos pictured would take a grievance against. For example: Magazines/Brochures/Prints etc are permissible because the emphasis is more on the photograph, whereas Coffee Mugs/T-Shirts/Posters and the like aren't, because the emphasis becomes more on the company logo.

As I said, it's a grey area and makes my brain hurt to think about.
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same

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