Q330
Topic Author
Posts: 1425
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2003 5:30 pm

An Improvement To Photographers Choice?

Mon Oct 23, 2006 3:18 pm

Hey all,

I've just had an idea for a possible improvement to the Photographers Choice feature. Looking back at previous discussions about the feature, one of the main concerns was that Photographers Choice more often than not ends up with high-hitting photos on top. It's obvious that a high-hitting photo is more likely to beat a less popular photo even if most photographers would consider the less popular one a better shot.

Maybe this can be avoided by ranking photos by number of Photographers Choice votes per view. There are some fantastic shots that don't make the top of last 24 hours. Going by average Photogs Choice votes would give the best of these unlucky ones a chance to get the front page exposure they deserve.

Another complaint that was brought up in past discussions was that Photographers Choice winners tend to stay in the top spot for as long as they are eligible (often almost a week). Using average votes should eliminate this problem since the huge volume of hits gained by being on the front page wouldn't necessarily secure so many more Photogs Choice votes that no other photo could overtake it.

What do you think?

-Q
Long live the A330!
 
by123a
Posts: 21
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 3:47 pm

RE: An Improvement To Photographers Choice?

Mon Oct 23, 2006 4:09 pm

I think we probably all agree that the system is somewhat flawed – unless it’s your own photo that gets to be number one!

What I would like to see is the top 10, 15 or 20 ‘Photographer’s Choices’ being rotated on the front page, as happens with the ‘Top-Rated Photos’. This could also be applied to the ‘Top of the Last 24 hours’, it would make for a more interesting front page and an increased coverage for the many well deserved photos that don’t quite make it to the number one spot.
 
User avatar
JeffM
Posts: 7569
Joined: Sat May 07, 2005 3:32 am

RE: An Improvement To Photographers Choice?

Mon Oct 23, 2006 9:20 pm

Quoting Q330 (Thread starter):
What do you think?

I'd say it's not broke, let's not try and fix it.

Quoting BY123A (Reply 1):
I think we probably all agree that the system is somewhat flawed

Evidently not "all"......... Wink
 
javibi
Posts: 1295
Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2004 5:55 pm

RE: An Improvement To Photographers Choice?

Mon Oct 23, 2006 10:08 pm

Quoting JeffM (Reply 2):
I'd say it's not broke, let's not try and fix it.

I was flying the A300 for 6 years; we flew most of the times to the Canary Islands, where the weather doesn't change much, particularly in LPA, so the joke went that they published a METAR 1st of January and they'll use the same one until the end of the year.

Same applies to JeffM comments regarding suggested changes of the site.

j
 
Q330
Topic Author
Posts: 1425
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2003 5:30 pm

RE: An Improvement To Photographers Choice?

Mon Oct 23, 2006 10:48 pm

Quoting JeffM (Reply 2):
I'd say it's not broke, let's not try and fix it.

It may not be broke, but it's certainly not as good as it could be (well said Javier). If you were to have a look through some of the previous discussions about this you'd see there are plenty of people who think there's room for improvement.

I've suggested this modification in particular because it should be very easy for Johan to implement but will have a significant impact on how Photographers Choice works. I think it could work even better than the front page time limits that some have suggested because even with time limits, the highest hitting photos (especially previous top-of-day shots) would still be the ones getting on the front page most often.

-Q
Long live the A330!
 
User avatar
clickhappy
Posts: 9042
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2001 12:10 pm

RE: An Improvement To Photographers Choice?

Mon Oct 23, 2006 11:41 pm

I think we should have some sort of 'virtual trohpy room' for awards for things like top of last 24 hours, Photographers choice, top uploaders, things like that.
 
timdegroot
Posts: 3258
Joined: Wed Apr 24, 2002 10:37 pm

RE: An Improvement To Photographers Choice?

Mon Oct 23, 2006 11:45 pm

Quoting Q330 (Thread starter):

Maybe this can be avoided by ranking photos by number of Photographers Choice votes per view. There are some fantastic shots that don't make the top of last 24 hours. Going by average Photogs Choice votes would give the best of these unlucky ones a chance to get the front page exposure they deserve.

I don't really understand what you mean, perhaps you could explain what exactly you mean by average.

I agree the photog choice tend to be up for a long time sometimes and are hard to overtake, and most of the time it's just the most popular that's not a cabin shot or window shot etc.

Tim
Alderman Exit
 
timdegroot
Posts: 3258
Joined: Wed Apr 24, 2002 10:37 pm

RE: An Improvement To Photographers Choice?

Mon Oct 23, 2006 11:46 pm

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 5):
I think we should have some sort of 'virtual trohpy room' for awards for things like top of last 24 hours, Photographers choice, top uploaders, things like that.

I'm sure people will like that Smile

Tim
Alderman Exit
 
aviopic
Posts: 2423
Joined: Sat Mar 13, 2004 7:52 pm

RE: An Improvement To Photographers Choice?

Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:04 am

Quoting JeffM (Reply 2):
I'd say it's not broke, let's not try and fix it.

No it's not broke because it never worked properly in the first place.
I still believe that "photographers choice" is not the Photographers choice but just another "Public choice" something we all ready have.
So Jeff I do agree with you there is nothing to fix, let's just change the name in Public or Viewers choice and we are done.

Of course A.net could keep the name as it is but change the system to a true Photographers Choice by only letting well established photographers choose.
In my view a more interesting system.

Willem
The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist
 
timdegroot
Posts: 3258
Joined: Wed Apr 24, 2002 10:37 pm

RE: An Improvement To Photographers Choice?

Tue Oct 24, 2006 1:02 am

Quoting Aviopic (Reply 8):
Of course A.net could keep the name as it is but change the system to a true Photographers Choice by only letting well established photographers choose.
In my view a more interesting system.

Just because someone has few pictures on here doesn't mean they are not established Wink

I have to disagree Willem, it's actually the photographers choosing here, so it's our own fault if we chose pictures we don't like, weird isn't it Wink

Perhaps a double or quadruple thumbnail would make things better.

Tim
Alderman Exit
 
spencer
Posts: 1518
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2004 8:30 pm

RE: An Improvement To Photographers Choice?

Tue Oct 24, 2006 3:22 am

Don't know if it fits in with the conversation but, having been on the front page for over a week, having been put there by fellow photogs, was a really nice feeling! It kinda made it all worthwhile. If I never get it again I can at least say I've been there, for that reason I say leave it be, it seems OK to me. I can't remember exactly how many views/hits my shot had when it initially went on, but it wasn't anywhere near the 50k+ it finished on. I think it's a great feature on A.net, having won it makes it even better!
Spencer.
(Waiting for his trophy!)  goldmedal 
EOS1D4, 7D, 30D, 100-400/4.5-5.6 L IS USM, 70-200/2.8 L IS2 USM, 17-40 f4 L USM, 24-105 f4 L IS USM, 85 f1.8 USM
 
D L X
Posts: 11663
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

RE: An Improvement To Photographers Choice?

Tue Oct 24, 2006 3:29 am

I think it's fine the way it is because in my opinion, it's a higher honor to get Photographers' Choice than Top of the Day. Your photo should be up longer if you get it. I'm also okay with it because it's the choice that the photographer contributors to this site have made.

Although, I would say that once your photo is selected as Photographers' Choice, the voting on it should end.

As for trophy room... of course I'm for it. But I think another good idea related to this one is to just put a little banner under the photo saying "This was Top of the Day on MM/DD/YYYY" or "This was Photographers' Choice the week of ..." etc.
 
User avatar
JeffM
Posts: 7569
Joined: Sat May 07, 2005 3:32 am

RE: An Improvement To Photographers Choice?

Tue Oct 24, 2006 3:59 am

Quoting Javibi (Reply 3):
Same applies to JeffM comments regarding suggested changes of the site.

Please forgive me for having an opinion, especially one you disagree with.... Yeah sure

Quoting Aviopic (Reply 8):
No it's not broke because it never worked properly in the first place.

...In your opinion...... Please clarify that, unless of course you now are in complete control of the website.  Wink Which, we all know, isn't even close to being the case. So to boil it down, you get a vote, I get a vote. Simple. That is if there were ever going to be a vote, which in itself is highly unlikely.

Quoting Aviopic (Reply 8):
So Jeff I do agree with you there is nothing to fix

Excellent.

Quoting D L X (Reply 11):
I think it's fine the way it is

....ooooooooh be careful...... you don't want to be labled a 'disenter' like me. That will be an immediate revocation of your membership in the Mutual Admiration Society....
 
aviopic
Posts: 2423
Joined: Sat Mar 13, 2004 7:52 pm

RE: An Improvement To Photographers Choice?

Tue Oct 24, 2006 4:03 am

Quoting Timdegroot (Reply 9):
Just because someone has few pictures on here doesn't mean they are not established

Which is why I didn't comment on who is established and who isn't, that's not up to me.
But we do know that the majority of the votes right now are probably not anyway.

Quoting Timdegroot (Reply 9):
I have to disagree Willem

That's fine Tim, no problem.

Quoting Timdegroot (Reply 9):
it's actually the photographers choosing here

That's my point, we don't know who is voting or not.
Might be the local lunatic we just don't know.
We only know that it is open for everybody and since there are more "visitors" then "contributors" (I guess) we can only assume that the final outcome is not the photographers choice.

Quoting Timdegroot (Reply 9):
so it's our own fault if we chose pictures we don't like, weird isn't it

No it's not our fault and not weird at all.
The "normal" visitors out number the active contributors probably by a factor 1000 or so, it does not matter whether you and I vote for something special.

Don't get me wrong, I am in favor of the idea but I don't think the system is worth the title at this moment.
I just would like to see a true Photographers choice.
The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist
 
Jan Mogren
Posts: 2014
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2000 2:47 am

RE: An Improvement To Photographers Choice?

Tue Oct 24, 2006 4:11 am

I thought only photographers could vote, no?

/JM
AeroPresentation - Airline DVD's filmed in High Definition
 
aviopic
Posts: 2423
Joined: Sat Mar 13, 2004 7:52 pm

RE: An Improvement To Photographers Choice?

Tue Oct 24, 2006 4:13 am

Quoting JeffM (Reply 12):
So to boil it down, you get a vote, I get a vote. Simple.

For the simple minded yes true.
My suggestion is just that a vote for something called "Photographers choice" should come from Photographers only....... who ever they are.
If that filter is not build in the system then simply call it something else, simple isn't it.

Quoting JeffM (Reply 12):
Quoting Aviopic (Reply 8):
So Jeff I do agree with you there is nothing to fix

Excellent.

That's dirty play Jeff.
Usually done by tabloids only  Wink
The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist
 
aviopic
Posts: 2423
Joined: Sat Mar 13, 2004 7:52 pm

RE: An Improvement To Photographers Choice?

Tue Oct 24, 2006 4:18 am

Quoting Jan Mogren (Reply 14):
I thought only photographers could vote, no?

Yes and no, everybody with the significant number of 1 photos in the base can vote.
The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist
 
Jan Mogren
Posts: 2014
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2000 2:47 am

RE: An Improvement To Photographers Choice?

Tue Oct 24, 2006 4:26 am

You have a point.

/JM
AeroPresentation - Airline DVD's filmed in High Definition
 
Fly747
Posts: 1361
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2005 9:03 am

RE: An Improvement To Photographers Choice?

Tue Oct 24, 2006 4:39 am

Quoting Aviopic (Reply 16):
Yes and no, everybody with the significant number of 1 photos in the base can vote.

What's the big deal anyways? I don't think it should matter how many photos you have on here. Some photogs upload quality, not quantity. I think it works out just fine.

Ivan
 
D L X
Posts: 11663
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

RE: An Improvement To Photographers Choice?

Tue Oct 24, 2006 4:43 am

Quoting Aviopic (Reply 16):
Yes and no, everybody with the significant number of 1 photos in the base can vote.

Not everyone is all about getting a large number of photos in the db. There's a guy being touted in another thread (about the new hot-shots) that has 3 photos in the DB. They're all excellent. He should vote.

Even still, those that only have 1 photo on here (however many people that is) are still photographers. I doubt there are many people that just happened to have a picture of an airplane they shot with their Kodak Disc110 and were able to upload it to this site. Getting 1 photo uploaded to this site is probably indicative of having the skill required to call yourself a photographer.

[Edited 2006-10-23 21:45:59]
 
aviopic
Posts: 2423
Joined: Sat Mar 13, 2004 7:52 pm

RE: An Improvement To Photographers Choice?

Tue Oct 24, 2006 5:21 am

Quoting Fly747 (Reply 18):
What's the big deal anyways?

What gave you the impression it's a big deal for me ?
It's not.
Somebody asked a question and I gave my personal opinion, nothing more nothing less.
Thought that was the function of this forum.

Quoting D L X (Reply 19):
Not everyone is all about getting a large number of photos in the db.

I did not put down any criteria which should have been accomplished.

Quoting D L X (Reply 19):
There's a guy being touted in another thread (about the new hot-shots) that has 3 photos in the DB. They're all excellent. He should vote.

Why ?

Being a licensed engineer and mentor of new guys at my department I see many come and go.
Some of them very talented and some very good still they do not get a license before completing the whole training program(which normally takes between 3 and 5 years), that's life as we know it.
Like a student pilot does not get his license after 3 well performed flights.

Quoting D L X (Reply 19):
Even still, those that only have 1 photo on here (however many people that is) are still photographers.

I fail to see the relation between the two, sorry.

Quoting D L X (Reply 19):
Getting 1 photo uploaded to this site is probably indicative of having the skill required to call yourself a photographer.

Or was lucky for a change.
We just don't know.
Which was my point in the first place.
The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist
 
Fly747
Posts: 1361
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2005 9:03 am

RE: An Improvement To Photographers Choice?

Tue Oct 24, 2006 5:53 am

Quoting Aviopic (Reply 20):
What gave you the impression it's a big deal for me ?
It's not.
Somebody asked a question and I gave my personal opinion, nothing more nothing less.
Thought that was the function of this forum.

Willem, it wasn't meant at you personally, but I don't see the difference between 1 or 100 photos. Photogs Choice is voted by the photographers, hence the name and you can only vote once so it's not even getting abused.

Ivan
 
timdegroot
Posts: 3258
Joined: Wed Apr 24, 2002 10:37 pm

RE: An Improvement To Photographers Choice?

Tue Oct 24, 2006 5:55 am

I think the discussion should focus on what should be done with the votes not who should vote.

Tim
Alderman Exit
 
D L X
Posts: 11663
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

RE: An Improvement To Photographers Choice?

Tue Oct 24, 2006 5:59 am

Hi Willem,

Quoting Aviopic (Reply 20):
Why ?

Because he's not just some yahoo. He is a photographer, and can spot a good photograph. He would know what's hard, and what's easy, and what's well done, etc. It's not analogous to learning to fly, or learning to be an engineer. There are many routes to becoming a photographer - getting a photo on A.net is fairly indicative that someone has taken one of those many routes.

Quoting Aviopic (Reply 20):
I fail to see the relation between the two, sorry.

Because chance snapshotters generally don't get photos accepted. And the lucky few are just that - few. Not enough to skew the results, and therefore, not enough to worry about to the point of changing the system to keep them out. As a computer engineer, I'm always careful with fixing bugs - you might introduce a new one.
 
User avatar
JeffM
Posts: 7569
Joined: Sat May 07, 2005 3:32 am

RE: An Improvement To Photographers Choice?

Tue Oct 24, 2006 6:08 am

Quoting Aviopic (Reply 20):
What gave you the impression it's a big deal for me ?

...hmmmm.....your incessant ranting about it? Just a guess.

Quoting Aviopic (Reply 20):
Like a student pilot does not get his license after 3 well performed flights

Oh brother......nice analogy.

Quoting Fly747 (Reply 21):
Photogs Choice is voted by the photographers, hence the name and you can only vote once so it's not even getting abused.

BINGO. Obviously not enough for some.
 
JRadier
Posts: 3943
Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2004 11:36 pm

RE: An Improvement To Photographers Choice?

Tue Oct 24, 2006 7:02 am

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 5):
I think we should have some sort of 'virtual trohpy room' for awards for things like top of last 24 hours, Photographers choice, top uploaders, things like that.

This would be a very nice addition.
For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and ther
 
Q330
Topic Author
Posts: 1425
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2003 5:30 pm

RE: An Improvement To Photographers Choice?

Tue Oct 24, 2006 8:42 am

Quoting Timdegroot (Reply 22):
I think the discussion should focus on what should be done with the votes not who should vote.

Yes, lets please keep this on topic! I proposed a simple modification to the way Photographers Choice votes are counted that I believe would help give excellent but underrated photos more exposure.

Quoting Timdegroot (Reply 6):
I don't really understand what you mean, perhaps you could explain what exactly you mean by average.

Sorry for not explaining it better. Just like we can all see our average views per photo in the database, photos could be ranked by the number of Photogs Choice votes they earn for every view they recieve. So a photo that recieves 5000 views and 1000 Photogs Choice votes would be ranked much higher than one that gets 2000 votes, but spread out over 50000 total views. Obviously, a much higher proportion of the photographers that viewed the less popular photo thought it was an excellent shot. This would put photos of all popularity levels on an even footing.

A photo that makes the top of last 24 hrs is likely to receive more Photogs choice votes just because more photographers have viewed it. But if a less popular photo gets a vote from almost every photographer that views it, it will have a higher number of votes per view and will be able to compete with the top of day photos for the top Photographers Choice position.

-Q
Long live the A330!
 
aviopic
Posts: 2423
Joined: Sat Mar 13, 2004 7:52 pm

RE: An Improvement To Photographers Choice?

Tue Oct 24, 2006 8:48 am

Quoting Fly747 (Reply 21):
Willem, it wasn't meant at you personally

I didn't take it that way Ivan don't worry and even if it was it would not bother me anyway.
We are just exchanging idea's each from our own viewpoint.
The main function of a forum in my view.
Although for some this seems to be very difficult.

Quoting JeffM (Reply 24):
...hmmmm.....your incessant ranting about it?



Quoting Fly747 (Reply 21):
but I don't see the difference between 1 or 100 photos

Me not either which is why I did not supply any criteria.

Quoting D L X (Reply 23):
Because he's not just some yahoo. He is a photographer, and can spot a good photograph. He would know what's hard, and what's easy, and what's well done, etc.

Guess this is where we differ from opinion.
I can't come to that conclusion from just 1 photo although it might be very good.
The person can also have been lucky just ones or maybe it's added 10 years ago, I don't know.

Quoting D L X (Reply 23):
As a computer engineer, I'm always careful with fixing bugs - you might introduce a new one.

True but that's always the risk.
Then again where are we if we avoid every risk, we wouldn't have aviation in the first place.


I will try to explain my point from another angle.
All of course from my viewpoint which isn't necessarily right.
Photography is not something you learn over night but a process that never ends.
We have the "lightmeter" Jeff's, "old slide" Mick's, "low light" Tim's, "panning" Javier's and many others who probably invested an enormous amount of time and effort in photography.
Their opinion would be of a lot more value to me then the opinion of a new kid on the block no matter how talented he or she might be.
As the system is right now those opinions get lost in the jungle which I think is a disrespect to what they achieved over time.
It is in this light that I think the system is flawed and does not really justifies the tittle "Photographers Choice".

I do not say this out of disrespect for fellow A.net shooters but we already know the opinion of the general shooter via the 24hour list.
In my view a truly dedicated photographer vote would add something extra to what we all have.

I am not gonna start a discussion about who is and who isn't a photographer in my opinion but I do wanna give a few hints.
- Not so long ago Eduard made a statement about recent photography at AMS. Well I am sorry but he was right.
Which raises the question: is somebody who produces 100 sideons a week from an airport with maybe the most possibilities a photographer or a post stamp collector ? and should he have a vote on his piece of art which he got after years of hard labor and investment of time and money ?

- I've always learned to work hard for anything I want to achieve whether it is my work, photography or my old Aircraft hobby doesn't matter.
What do I read on almost a daily basis right here in this forum ?
"What settings should I use for my 10D and similar questions etc etc."
Why should people without the eagerness to learn the basics of photography be qualified to judge the work of Sam Chui ?
In my view it doesn't work like that and I guess it is here where my view differs from the general A.net view which as said before is quite alright.
The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist
 
User avatar
JeffM
Posts: 7569
Joined: Sat May 07, 2005 3:32 am

RE: An Improvement To Photographers Choice?

Tue Oct 24, 2006 9:09 am

Quoting Aviopic (Reply 27):
We have the "lightmeter" Jeff's, "old slide" Mick's, "low light" Tim's, "panning" Javier's and many others who probably invested an enormous amount of time and effort in photography.
Their opinion would be of a lot more value to me then the opinion of a new kid on the block no matter how talented he or she might be.

Everybody is new here once upon a time, whether or not they have been shooting for 30 years or 30 days. I value the opinion of new and old members, even those that don't have an eagerness to learn photography.

I like to cook, yet don't get offended if someone tells me they didn't care for the dish I just made because they aren't "in" to cooking.
 
eadster
Posts: 2125
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 7:31 pm

RE: An Improvement To Photographers Choice?

Tue Oct 24, 2006 1:26 pm

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 5):
I think we should have some sort of 'virtual trohpy room' for awards for things like top of last 24 hours, Photographers choice, top uploaders, things like that.

Yeah strongly agree here. I've always thought it would be nice to have a "featured photographer", where we could feature some of their favourite shots for let's say a week, then someone else gets the chance. Just a bit of exposure for us contributors. I haven't thought of how it would work yet of course, but thought that it would be nice.
 
javibi
Posts: 1295
Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2004 5:55 pm

RE: An Improvement To Photographers Choice?

Tue Oct 24, 2006 2:47 pm

Quoting JeffM (Reply 12):
Please forgive me for having an opinion, especially one you disagree with....

Oh, no, please, YOU forgive us lower beings for having opinions  Big grin

And BTW, I did not say I disagreed...

j

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests