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ptrjong
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First Soft, Now Sharp

Wed Jan 03, 2007 8:53 am

Hi all,

This was rejected for soft:

http://www.airliners.net/addphotos/r...ections/big/20061226_PH-HZMptr.jpg

So I added a gentle amount of USM (admittedly to the same file) and guess what: rejected for oversharpened, grainy AND quality. grumpy 
http://www.airliners.net/addphotos/r...ections/big/20070102_PH-HZMptr.jpg

Now, it may be me, but to be honest I'm seeing none of the four indicated problems. nosy  I'm not ruling out that the first one is a tad on the soft side of what a.net thinks is good, and the second one a tad on the sharp side, but as far as sharpening is concerned, I'm starting to feel like the people who say:
Isn't this going a bit too far?
So if somebody can tell me what's wrong with them (wrong as in: detract from this photo for viewers using all sorts of monitors), I'd appreciate it.

Peter wave 
The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
 
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dvincent
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RE: First Soft, Now Sharp

Wed Jan 03, 2007 9:55 am

I can see some banding in the underbelly of the jet, but I can't tell if that's because of fuselage irregularities or camera. I can also kinda see some artifacts, but only if I zoom in far enough (that is, if I'd be using the equivalent of a loupe). The difference between the two in sharpness is slight, though.

It's bordering on pixel-peeping, though. I do like the shot in general, though, the heat haze is in a nice place that doesn't detract from the image.
From the Mind of Minolta
 
Avsfan
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RE: First Soft, Now Sharp

Wed Jan 03, 2007 12:16 pm

Quoting Ptrjong (Thread starter):
detract from this photo for viewers using all sorts of monitors

That is one of the main problems here when it comes to viewing, screening and commenting on photos. Unless everyone on A.net had the same monitor, calibrated to the exact same specifications, same screen resolution set, same operating system monitor display settings, use the same post-processing software and workflow, then we would all see things the same. Unfortunately that will never happen, so photos will always have some sort of comment about them.

Other than that is it a great photo!

[i]*Note: Oh yeah, through in those who might have some degree of color blindness.

My  twocents  worth.

-Louis
"Oh I have slipped the surly bonds of Earth...Put out my hand and touched the face of God"
 
Avsfan
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RE: First Soft, Now Sharp

Wed Jan 03, 2007 12:16 pm

Quoting Ptrjong (Thread starter):
detract from this photo for viewers using all sorts of monitors

That is one of the main problems here when it comes to viewing, screening and commenting on photos. Unless everyone on A.net had the same monitor, calibrated to the exact same specifications, same screen resolution set, same operating system monitor display settings, use the same post-processing software and workflow, then we would all see things the same. Unfortunately that will never happen, so photos will always have some sort of comment about them.

Other than that is it a great photo!

*Note: Oh yeah, throw in those who might have some degree of color blindness.

My  twocents  worth.

-Louis
"Oh I have slipped the surly bonds of Earth...Put out my hand and touched the face of God"
 
phxplanes
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RE: First Soft, Now Sharp

Wed Jan 03, 2007 2:34 pm

On my computer it looks like the blue part of the fuselage is grainy and the windows might be oversharpened.
 
jajo
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RE: First Soft, Now Sharp

Wed Jan 03, 2007 5:35 pm

Quoting Ptrjong (Thread starter):
So I added a gentle amount of USM (admittedly to the same file) and guess what: rejected for oversharpened, grainy AND quality

Hi Peter! Nice shot!

I agree with the screener here. The first picture is soft, especially in the forward section of the plane. However, the first edit is much better than the second, which is clearly oversharpened (look around the bottom of the fuselage and you will see a white thin border from the sharpening). I also see grain in the blue part of the aircraft on the second shot, something that existed in the first aswell but became more visible after sharpening. I bet that is why you also got "quality", sharpening of a not-perfect-quality-shot will make it look even worse quality-wise.

However I think the shot is great and maybe saveable with another workflow. Post the original here if you want some help.

Kind regards,
Jacob
 
LIPH
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RE: First Soft, Now Sharp

Wed Jan 03, 2007 6:26 pm

Hy guys,
I jump in this thread becuase I have recently received a "soft" rej :

http://www.airliners.net/addphotos/r...070102_ryanair_bello_a_treviso.jpg

Any comment and suggestion ?
Thanks and regards
Life sucks. Then you die. Live fast, die young.
 
OD720
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RE: First Soft, Now Sharp

Wed Jan 03, 2007 6:37 pm

I think both are good, as far as I can tell.

If you want to find faults, you can find them even in the best photos. I'm not talking about aviation photos in particular. Just look at a good calendar made by Kodak for example and I can point you out areas in the photos that I can call them faults.

Back to my point, both are actually great. Congrats Peter!
 
jajo
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RE: First Soft, Now Sharp

Wed Jan 03, 2007 6:42 pm

Quoting LIPH (Reply 6):
I jump in this thread becuase I have recently received a "soft" rej :

Only "soft"? I wouldn't say that is the main problem in this picture. I think motiv (right engine cutoff) and contrast are the biggest problems here. But if you look at the registration in the back of the plane it looks sharp but unreadable. That might be because the picture was soft from the camera and you tried to solve it by sharpening. The edges on the RYAN AIR-logo, and the engines/wings looks soft.

/ jajo
 
eadster
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RE: First Soft, Now Sharp

Wed Jan 03, 2007 6:48 pm

This is something I doubt we will ever come to work out, as I have pics that look slightly over sharp on my screen here that constantly get rejected for soft.
 
LIPH
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RE: First Soft, Now Sharp

Wed Jan 03, 2007 6:49 pm

Quoting OD720 (Reply 7):
Just look at a good calendar made by Kodak for example and I can point you out areas in the photos that I can call them faults.

They would not make it on A.net. We can say to be Kodak's official photographers competitors...!  Wink

Quoting Jajo (Reply 8):
I think motiv (right engine cutoff) and contrast are the biggest problems here.

Motive should not be the issue :

http://www.airliners.net/open.file?i...46&prev_id=&next_id=0995928&size=L

Regarding contrast it's strange because the rejection was for softness...I cannot see any real soft area...The sun was illumintaing every part ofthe fuselage very brightly...

Regards
Life sucks. Then you die. Live fast, die young.
 
LIPH
Posts: 841
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RE: First Soft, Now Sharp

Wed Jan 03, 2007 6:54 pm

Quoting Eadster (Reply 9):
This is something I doubt we will ever come to work out, as I have pics that look slightly over sharp on my screen here that constantly get rejected for soft.

What do you mean Eadster ? You think that there is no way to have certain screening concistency ?  Sad

Regards
Life sucks. Then you die. Live fast, die young.
 
aero145
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RE: First Soft, Now Sharp

Wed Jan 03, 2007 8:44 pm

Quoting LIPH (Reply 6):
Any comment and suggestion ?

Yes, the image needs 40 pixels to the height ratio to be acceptable here, I got a photo rejected for 1024x667, as it was under the 3:2 ratio.

I feel it needs a ccw rotation too.
 
viv
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RE: First Soft, Now Sharp

Wed Jan 03, 2007 8:58 pm

Quoting Ptrjong (Thread starter):
I added a gentle amount of USM (admittedly to the same file)

Always a bad idea. Much better to start from the original.
Nikon D700, Nikkor 80-400, Fuji X Pro 1, Fujinon 35 f/1.4, Fujinon 18 f/2
 
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ptrjong
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RE: First Soft, Now Sharp

Wed Jan 03, 2007 9:10 pm

Quoting Jajo (Reply 5):

Thanks guys and Jajo in particular, I guess you're right. You have a good eye for these matters while I, after over two years of uploading pictures here and almost a million hits for them, do not.

Or perhaps I just don't care enough - this is a pleasant photograph I think, and the first version especialy just looks good enough for me. A tad soft or not, I'm inclined to say that it has more merit overall than 10 out of the 15 last shots of PH-HZM in the database, which I call dull. I believe that eventually a.net will have to adopt a different set of criteria to select 500 pictures each day.

But I'll stop moaning - I feel pretty committed to a.net regardless.

Quoting Jajo (Reply 5):
Post the original here if you want some help.

I'm sure you and others can produce a better edit, but that in itself won't teach me anything. If you would be willing to do this AND describe what you do in detail, then I would be grateful.

Peter Smile
The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
 
jajo
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RE: First Soft, Now Sharp

Wed Jan 03, 2007 9:17 pm

Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 14):

Just to clarify, I really like the shot and I don't think I am better than you in editing. But some things are easier for an "outsider" (who have not worked with the picture for some time) to detect.

Hope you got me right.

/ jajo
 
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ptrjong
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RE: First Soft, Now Sharp

Wed Jan 03, 2007 9:25 pm

Quoting Jajo (Reply 15):
I don't think I am better than you in editing.

I think you might Wink. Especially with regards to sharpening. My sharpening technique is laborious, yet producing a horrible acceptance rate at the moment.
The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
 
jajo
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RE: First Soft, Now Sharp

Wed Jan 03, 2007 10:52 pm

Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 16):
I think you might Wink. Especially with regards to sharpening. My sharpening technique is laborious, yet producing a horrible acceptance rate at the moment.

Send it over to me, ja.jo@telia.com and I'll give it a try. If you like it, I'll tell you exactly what I did.

/ jajo
 
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ptrjong
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RE: First Soft, Now Sharp

Wed Jan 03, 2007 11:14 pm

Quoting Jajo (Reply 17):

Thanks Jacob. It's in your mailbox.

Peter
The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
 
jajo
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RE: First Soft, Now Sharp

Thu Jan 04, 2007 1:22 am

Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 18):
Thanks Jacob. It's in your mailbox.

It was a tough one! Here is an edit, personally I prefer it over your version:

http://boplats.net/DSC_0029-jajo-1024px.jpg

http://boplats.net/DSC_0029-jajo-1024px.jpg

(also available in 1400px at http://boplats.net/DSC_0029-jajo-1400px.jpg )

Don't know if it is enough for the site though. The original was quite noisy and the light was weak. You have done a good job editing the shot too!

Kind regards,
Jacob
 
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ptrjong
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RE: First Soft, Now Sharp

Thu Jan 04, 2007 4:21 am

Thanks Jacob! It's rather brighter than my version and I don't think that was what I was seeing that day, but it looks attractive.

Quoting Jajo (Reply 19):
The original was quite noisy and the light was weak.

Yeah, when I saw the original back, I realized that it was much more marginal than I seemed to remember (and that I've been complaining a bit too loudly blush  ).

Maybe this is why your version is looking hardly any sharper than my first, or don't you agree with that?

Did you do any local sharpening, or only general sharpening with erasing, or just general sharpening?

Peter
The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
 
eadster
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RE: First Soft, Now Sharp

Thu Jan 04, 2007 5:44 am

Quoting LIPH (Reply 11):
What do you mean Eadster ? You think that there is no way to have certain screening concistency ?

I don't know if its a matter of consistancy or not. I personally feel that there is a big difference in looking at shots on CRTs and LCDs. Now I believe that screeners do their stuff on CRTs right? There in lies one of the issues. I've had shots rejected for soft that I have been really scratching my head over. Usually I apply slightly more sharpening that usual to get around the problem, but lately its been softness most of the way.

Another problem too, is that each shot is different and is going to require different amounts of sharpening.

So what I'm trying to say is basically, the shot that started this discussion off, to me was sharp enough to begin with.

How do we deal with it? I have no idea.
 
LIPH
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RE: First Soft, Now Sharp

Thu Jan 04, 2007 7:38 am

Quoting Eadster (Reply 21):
How do we deal with it? I have no idea.

You're right...If we look at the same thing with different monitors and settings, acceptance may vary...This is a real pity. Maybe a solution could be to implement a software on A.net, a sort of "virtual monitor" one can see the picture as screeners see it....Who knows. For sure this is a big issue to dela with...

Regards
Life sucks. Then you die. Live fast, die young.

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