lufthansi
Posts: 412
Joined: Wed May 15, 2002 12:26 am

Isn't This Rejection Unfair?

Mon Jan 08, 2007 9:43 pm

Hi there!

It's me once again.

Shorty I uploaded a pic of a 777 main gear assembly. I got a rejection for bad motive and quality. This was the pic:

http://www.airliners.net/addphotos/rejections/big/20061210_01010676.JPG

Today I saw a picture of another 777 main gear assembly running for the "top of the last 24 hrs position".

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1161188/L/

I feel a bit sad about my rejection. It's definitly the same motive.

Please don't tell me that you would have rejected it for another reason. mine was bad motive. And as you can see it's definately the same. I got a nice sunshine in my frame as well... And is the quality really worse than on today's 777 pic?
Life starts at take-off!
 
jorge1812
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RE: Isn't This Rejection Unfair?

Mon Jan 08, 2007 9:56 pm

Not the same pic. Yours has too much dead space above and below the tires. Try another crop and probably the Quality won't be an issue anymore. Also the gear door is overexposed in my eyes.

Georg
 
viv
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RE: Isn't This Rejection Unfair?

Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:00 pm

Quoting Lufthansi (Thread starter):
is the quality really worse than on today's 777

Yes, it really is worse.
Nikon D700, Nikkor 80-400, Fuji X Pro 1, Fujinon 35 f/1.4, Fujinon 18 f/2
 
Kukkudrill
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RE: Isn't This Rejection Unfair?

Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:10 pm

I suspect the quality rejection was for the noise on the wing underside as well as the overexposed gear door. I think also that Georg is right about the motive.

I have the impression that a.net doesn't like detail shots (engines, undercarriage etc) very much, so such a photo has to be 100% right in terms of the a.net criteria to get accepted here.
Make the most of the available light ... a lesson of photography that applies to life
 
JeffM
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RE: Isn't This Rejection Unfair?

Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:16 pm

Quoting Lufthansi (Thread starter):
I feel a bit sad about my rejection. It's definitly the same motive.

You are absolutely right, I think the screeners are just picking on you.... Yeah sure

.....come on....look at your photo objectively...it is no where near the same as the example you linked to. Valid rejection.
 
willo
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RE: Isn't This Rejection Unfair?

Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:22 pm

I have to say that neither of the pictures mentioned do anything for me. Had the shot been taken in another direction so you could actually see all of the struts and workings then maybe it would be of some interest.  twocents 
 
LIPH
Posts: 841
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RE: Isn't This Rejection Unfair?

Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:49 pm

Quoting Lufthansi (Thread starter):
I feel a bit sad about my rejection. It's definitly the same motive.

Lufthansi,
this is one of the many cases wich really let me think about what is "in" and what is "out" on A.net. And personally cannot come up with any conclusion about it yet...(and probably never will)
The subject is exactly the same. I do not think that the crop make the difference here. It is not that levelling the gears more on the bottom or at the top will make any difference at all.
The only "thumb down" could be for the overexposed gear compartment door, but this has something to do with an overexposed rejection not "motive" or "quality". Probably the lights of the pic should be "re-assembled" but in my opinion, apart from this, the rejection is unjustified...or at lest the motivation for it.

Regards
Life sucks. Then you die. Live fast, die young.
 
INNflight
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RE: Isn't This Rejection Unfair?

Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:59 pm

Quoting LIPH (Reply 6):
I do not think that the crop make the difference here.

Crop always makes a huuuuuuuge difference! Portrait format doesn't do it for this one, hence motive is absolutely justified.  Smile

Cheers
Florian
Jet Visuals
 
dazbo5
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RE: Isn't This Rejection Unfair?

Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:02 pm

For me, this shot would be better in a landscape orientation rather than portrait. There isn't any interest in the foreground leaving too much dead space. The one on the front page would be my preferred crop for this type of shot. Motive wise, in my opinion, it is interesting so see a close-up of the main landing gear because its a substantial piece of engineeing. Its a nice photo, but it doesn't quite meet the a.net criteria unfortunately.

Darren
Equipment: 2x Canon EOS 50D; Sigma 10-20 EX DC HSM, 50-500 EX APO DG, Canon 24-105 f/4 L, Speedlite 430EX
 
LIPH
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RE: Isn't This Rejection Unfair?

Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:14 pm

Quoting INNflight (Reply 7):
Portrait format doesn't do it for this one

Why Florian ? I could argue that portrait crops enhace the weight sensation of the aircraft, just to make an examples among many...Here we are in the most subjective territory ever...

Regards
Life sucks. Then you die. Live fast, die young.
 
CalgaryBill
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RE: Isn't This Rejection Unfair?

Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:14 pm

Quoting Lufthansi (Thread starter):
Please don't tell me that you would have rejected it for another reason. mine was bad motive. And as you can see it's definately the same. I got a nice sunshine in my frame as well... And is the quality really worse than on today's 777 pic?

So to paraphrase: "Don't tell me if it's anything other than motive, but is it quality?" Which do you want? I recently had one rejected for quality, learned from the mistake, and see the same issues in this pic.

B
 
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acontador
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RE: Isn't This Rejection Unfair?

Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:36 pm

Hi Stephan,

Please remember that the motive rejection does not only refer to 'what' you are showing in your picture but also to 'how' you're doing it. And in this case I think it is clearly about the 'how'. Unflattening crop, dark wing underside v/s overexpossed gear door, the baggage truck in the background, it all just doesn't help at all to make your picture feel right. I am not arguing that it is OK to reject pictures because of this, but I have seen lately that this is how it works here (if I'm wrong, anybody please just feel free to correct me!).
Just sit back, relax and have a glass of Merlot...enjoy your life!
 
LIPH
Posts: 841
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RE: Isn't This Rejection Unfair?

Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:40 pm

Quoting Acontador (Reply 11):

Please remember that the motive rejection does not only refer to 'what' you are showing in your picture but also to 'how' you're doing it

Yes, probably it would be time to implement new rejections reasons under the name of "motive"...After all it's too much clear and precise...  Wink

Regards
Life sucks. Then you die. Live fast, die young.
 
IL76
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RE: Isn't This Rejection Unfair?

Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:46 pm

Quoting LIPH (Reply 9):
Here we are in the most subjective territory ever...

Exactly, and that's why there will never be a black-and-white rule about motives. Simply because you can't make it. What you think looks cool, could be ugly to another. We have a group of screeners who try to come to a conclusion about what looks nice and what doesn't. You can disagree with a decision, but there is no way argueing, as it is subjective.
It's like discussing food. The cook may be Gordon Ramsey, but it's still possible that I don't like the taste of a dish he makes. But I'm not going to ask if he can put a peanutbutter sandwich on the menu. I will just have to go elsewhere for my peanutbutter sandwich. Just like how photographers display their A.net motive rejections elsewhere.  Smile
 
LIPH
Posts: 841
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RE: Isn't This Rejection Unfair?

Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:54 pm

Quoting IL76 (Reply 13):
Exactly, and that's why there will never be a black-and-white rule about motives

Ok Eduard,
but could you please tell me why the shot of Lufthansi was rejected and the other one not ?
Also, there is not the risk that, at the end, all rejections will be NOA motive ? Knowledge about composing a pic and post processing tecnique can improve, but if there is no clear rule about motive, so what ? Will it become a lottery ?

Regards
Life sucks. Then you die. Live fast, die young.
 
INNflight
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RE: Isn't This Rejection Unfair?

Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:57 pm

Quoting LIPH (Reply 14):
but could you please tell me why the shot of Lufthansi was rejected and the other one not ?

I guess the main factor (as you said subjective!) still is the portrait crop!  Smile There's too much uninteresting, bare metal on top, and too much uninteresting concrete on the bottom... The accepted one is full frame without dead (uninteresting) space.

Florian
Jet Visuals
 
IL76
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RE: Isn't This Rejection Unfair?

Tue Jan 09, 2007 12:13 am

Quoting LIPH (Reply 14):
Will it become a lottery ?

Well... Some say it is. But I'm not too sure about that. If a picture clearly shows why someone took it that way, it looks appealing and it shows something aviation related (and I don't mean close-ups of nuts and bolts, a piece of sheet metal hardly recognisable as part of a plane or something obstructed by other objects in an unappealing way), you'll have some winning lottery numbers already. Not saying that it's a winning combination though, that can only be decided for each photo individually. But there has to be an X-factor to the photo that will make the screeners go: "Hmm, that's nice!". And yes, in the end it comes down to the screeners opinion, just like my foods taste comes down to the cook's opinion when I go to a restaurant.
(...and if I don't like his cooking, I take another flavored dish or I go to another restaurant!  )

E

[Edited 2007-01-08 16:30:42]
 
LIPH
Posts: 841
Joined: Mon May 17, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: Isn't This Rejection Unfair?

Tue Jan 09, 2007 12:40 am

Quoting IL76 (Reply 16):

See Peter,
in this way, it's a bit frustrating to know you cannot learn from others nor improve your skills....  Sad

Reagards
Life sucks. Then you die. Live fast, die young.
 
Kukkudrill
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RE: Isn't This Rejection Unfair?

Tue Jan 09, 2007 1:30 am

Quoting IL76 (Reply 16):
But there has to be an X-factor to the photo that will make the screeners go: "Hmm, that's nice!". And yes, in the end it comes down to the screeners opinion, just like my foods taste comes down to the cook's opinion when I go to a restaurant.
(...and if I don't like his cooking, I take another flavored dish or I go to another restaurant!)

This is beginning to sound like "I don't like this photo and that's that". OK motive decisions are inevitably subjective, but at least please tell us why you don't like it. Different people have come up with different reasons but you haven't said yay or nay to any.
Make the most of the available light ... a lesson of photography that applies to life
 
IL76
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RE: Isn't This Rejection Unfair?

Tue Jan 09, 2007 2:25 am

Quoting Kukkudrill (Reply 18):
Different people have come up with different reasons but you haven't said yay or nay to any.

Maybe because I never talked about the above photos, I was merely giving comments about the general code of conduct and the whole 'fairness' of things.
So you want my vote? I haven't screened this shot, but I'd say nay. The subject is the wheel bogey, which makes up only a part of the whole picture. The surroundings don't add to the photo, they don't give it an extra vibe (like an interesting sunset or landscape does) and are more a distraction. A horizontal crop would be better. On top of that it's got quality issues (grainy, overexposed gear door).

There. I've said everything that was said before already.  beady 

E
 
IL76
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RE: Isn't This Rejection Unfair?

Tue Jan 09, 2007 2:27 am

Coming back to

Quoting Kukkudrill (Reply 18):
This is beginning to sound like "I don't like this photo and that's that".

Most photos are screened by more than one screener, so it's not so definitive as you describe.

E

[Edited 2007-01-08 18:27:47]
 
AirMalta
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RE: Isn't This Rejection Unfair?

Tue Jan 09, 2007 2:52 am

Quoting Lufthansi (Thread starter):
Today I saw a picture of another 777 main gear assembly running for the "top of the last 24 hrs position".

why dont you crop the pict and try to make it look like the one it was online today? in these circumstances you have to give it a try!!
Malcolm
 
INNflight
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RE: Isn't This Rejection Unfair?

Tue Jan 09, 2007 3:17 am

Quoting Kukkudrill (Reply 18):
This is beginning to sound like "I don't like this photo and that's that".

And that's how it should be. This website is owned by Johan, and representing his interests, the screeners accept or reject.

If he tells them to reject all photos of white and blue aircraft, so be it.

...of course personal preferences are in the play re. motive, and that's not really avoidable as long as there are guidelines and screeners.

As said before, the rejected boogie is correct... it's just not worth being on here, sorry.
Jet Visuals
 
eadster
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RE: Isn't This Rejection Unfair?

Tue Jan 09, 2007 5:17 am

Quoting Lufthansi (Thread starter):
And is the quality really worse than on today's 777 pic?

Yes as its been over sharpened.

I save the trouble and don't go for motive's like this. They are hard to get accepted, and in the long run, saves a little less heartache.
 
Kukkudrill
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Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2004 10:11 pm

RE: Isn't This Rejection Unfair?

Tue Jan 09, 2007 6:28 am

Quoting IL76 (Reply 19):
There. I've said everything that was said before already.

But none of it was said by a screener.

I'm not saying that the photo should have been accepted - see my own post no. 3. I'm simply saying that, precisely because motive rejections are subjective, the more you can tell us about the reasons behind them the better. So thanks for the feedback.

Quoting INNflight (Reply 22):
If he tells them to reject all photos of white and blue aircraft, so be it.

So be it. But I'm sure you'll agree that in such a case photographers should be told about "noa_white and blue".  Smile
Make the most of the available light ... a lesson of photography that applies to life
 
codeshare
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RE: Isn't This Rejection Unfair?

Tue Jan 09, 2007 7:17 am

Quoting Kukkudrill (Reply 24):
I'm not saying that the photo should have been accepted - see my own post no. 3. I'm simply saying that, precisely because motive rejections are subjective, the more you can tell us about the reasons behind them the better. So thanks for the feedback.

I think it would help us all to get exact reasons for the motivs, but it's highly unlikely at this moment, unless you get a personal message.

I'd like for a 'crop' rejection to be introduced as it would seperate at least some of the photos here into bad cropped photos and photos that are 'not interesting' for the site according to the rules.

Quoting Lufthansi (Thread starter):
Please don't tell me that you would have rejected it for another reason. mine was bad motive. And as you can see it's definately the same. I got a nice sunshine in my frame as well... And is the quality really worse than on today's 777 pic?

Comparing the two after this discussion, objectively, you have to admit Josh's photo is the better one. Maybe next time try to take it from a different angle or think over what kind of shot you want to take. If you have the time and no pressure of couse  Smile

KS/codeshare
How much A is there is Airliners Net ? 0 or nothing ?
 
lufthansi
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RE: Isn't This Rejection Unfair?

Tue Jan 09, 2007 7:42 am

Txs to all for your discussions. I hope to get some time for taking other shots. I'll use my space for the main object and try to avoid "boring and empty" areas. The gear door may seem overexposured but actually the sun was directly reflecting from it. It looked nearly white though it is grey painted. If I turn the exposure down, the bolts and rims would be too dark. I thought the low standing morning sun perfectly illuminates all the details down to the brakes. Hm. Next time I shot it horizontally and more close up.

It has been a nice discussionb without anyone getting blamed. Neither the screeners, nor the forum writers, nor me. Thanks!

 Smile
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