pepef
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Screeners Should Be Divided Into Groups.

Tue Jan 09, 2007 10:27 pm

I think it's time the screeners were divided into groups. Each group would screen different categories depending on their area of expertize. The screening results would be much more consistent.

You should have at least 20-30 accepted photos in a category before you earn the right to screen photos in that category.

Also, there should be a tick-box on the upload page where you choose "prepared on an LCD-monitor" or "prepared on a CRT-monitor". The screener and uploader should be using the same type of monitor.

-Pepef-

Yes, I got another reject  biggrin 
 
IL76
Posts: 2237
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RE: Screeners Should Be Divided Into Groups.

Tue Jan 09, 2007 10:32 pm

OK... Well what do you know... The LCD in my office sucks. Any photo looks bad on this one. Do we need an upload tickbox for "prepared on crappy DELL LCD" now?

Great idea...

Quoting Pepef (Thread starter):
You should have at least 20-30 accepted photos in a category before you earn the right to screen photos in that category.

Let me guess, you're aiming at cockpit shots, right? Well, we'll just not screen your photos then, as none of us have 20+ cockpitshots. Too bad, you'll just have to wait until a screener hits 20-30 cockpit photos. The ACCIDENT/INCIDENT/CRASH-category is going to be a hoot too. Big grin

E

[Edited 2007-01-09 14:41:31]
 
JeffM
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RE: Screeners Should Be Divided Into Groups.

Tue Jan 09, 2007 10:38 pm

Wow, Pepef, I'm sure the screeners would like to have us divided into at least two groups. I think at a minimum it would be 'whiners' and 'non-whiners'.....

I'm sure they love hearing you tell them how they should be doing business.

..another topic for the 'it's not broke, no need to fix it..' bin.
 
codeshare
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RE: Screeners Should Be Divided Into Groups.

Tue Jan 09, 2007 10:48 pm

Pepef, why such ideas? It may seem that you are angry at a few rejections, right? So am I, but it's better to get over it, cause it's just not worth it to lose patience over a few photos that are not wanted here.
Everybody has ideas about 'improving' the site, but I'm sure so do the crew and Johan.

So just calm down  Smile

KS/codesahre
How much A is there is Airliners Net ? 0 or nothing ?
 
LIPH
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RE: Screeners Should Be Divided Into Groups.

Tue Jan 09, 2007 10:56 pm

Pepef,
pure "flaming" is on its way...
I'm sorry for your rej.

Regards
Life sucks. Then you die. Live fast, die young.
 
ghostbase
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RE: Screeners Should Be Divided Into Groups.

Tue Jan 09, 2007 11:21 pm

Well, I upload mainly military and wrecks and relics dating back as far as 1985 which I guess is heading towards 'special interest', can't be too many screeners into those. However, I have never encountered any problem caused by lack of "screener expertise". In fact, from the personal messages I occasionally receive, I have the impression that in the case of uploading something quite specialised one of the three screenings has generally been by a screener who *does* have expertise in the photo subject matter.

 ghost 
"I chase my dreams but I never seem to arrive"
 
ChrisH
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RE: Screeners Should Be Divided Into Groups.

Tue Jan 09, 2007 11:24 pm

Quoting JeffM (Reply 2):
Wow, Pepef, I'm sure the screeners would like to have us divided into at least two groups. I think at a minimum it would be 'whiners' and 'non-whiners'.....

I can think of a few more... sycophants come to mind Big grin
what seems to be the officer, problem?
 
NIKV69
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RE: Screeners Should Be Divided Into Groups.

Tue Jan 09, 2007 11:24 pm

I'll give him credit it is original. I am surprised this thread hasn't been locked yet.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
skidmarks
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RE: Screeners Should Be Divided Into Groups.

Tue Jan 09, 2007 11:29 pm

For one minute I thought this was going to say "Screeners should be divided into groups and shot" Big grin

But no, just another suggestion to complicate the screening process, which on the whole, works pretty well. JeffM is right - it ain't broke, get your sweaty mitts off it!!  wink 

Andy  old 
Growing old is compulsory, growing up is optional
 
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clickhappy
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RE: Screeners Should Be Divided Into Groups.

Tue Jan 09, 2007 11:41 pm

My advice would be to branch out and try uploading something other than a cockpit shot of a Finnair flight.

While I enjoy looking at such shots, and they are very popular with our customers, you have pretty much saturated the market.

As far as rejections, are you talking about the in flight cockpit shot of OH-LBR? It was rejected for quality, and rightly so, it is very grainy and noisy, also blurry.

I also count at least 7 (!) in flight deck shots of the same reg that you have already had accepted.

Royal
 
pepef
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RE: Screeners Should Be Divided Into Groups.

Wed Jan 10, 2007 2:58 am

Quoting IL76 (Reply 1):
Let me guess, you're aiming at cockpit shots, right? Well, we'll just not screen your photos then, as none of us have 20+ cockpitshots. Too bad, you'll just have to wait until a screener hits 20-30 cockpit photos.

80% are passed on to Johan anyway. I wouldn't mind if he screened the other 20% as well. It would be a lot quicker.

Quoting JeffM (Reply 2):
another topic for the 'it's not broke, no need to fix it..' bin.

I think it is broke, read on...

Quoting LIPH (Reply 4):
Pepef,
pure "flaming" is on its way...

I don't mind, I'm used to it. People don't want to change anything, so the site won't evolve.

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 9):
My advice would be to branch out and try uploading something other than a cockpit shot of a Finnair flight.


While I enjoy looking at such shots, and they are very popular with our customers, you have pretty much saturated the market.

As far as rejections, are you talking about the in flight cockpit shot of OH-LBR? It was rejected for quality, and rightly so, it is very grainy and noisy, also blurry.

I also count at least 7 (!) in flight deck shots of the same reg that you have already had accepted.

I'll take your advice into consideration. Your advice is that I should learn to take unpopular photos, right.

There's currently 39384 Boeing 757 photos in the database. 304 of those are from the cockpit.
The general viewer comes here to view photos. Most people don't care who the photographer is.

Uploading photos is not important to me. I stopped taking cockpit photos a long time ago. But there is a lot of criticism in the forums. I'm trying to offer solutions.

If there were 2-3 screeners/category, there wouldn't be a lot of inconsistency. With 20 guys going through the same photos, there always will be inconcistencies. Do as you please.

-Pepef-
 
D L X
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RE: Screeners Should Be Divided Into Groups.

Wed Jan 10, 2007 3:08 am

Quoting Pepef (Reply 10):
If there were 2-3 screeners/category, there wouldn't be a lot of inconsistency. With 20 guys going through the same photos, there always will be inconcistencies.

Yeah, but right now, for most shots, 3 screeners review it at most. If you had a screener pool for each category, you'd need a lot more eyes on it. That, and I'm sure the "blemish" screener could spot "quality" or "contrast" etc. Why spend the extra time on it?

I'd prefer a faster queue over a 100% consistent queue I think.
 
TransIsland
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RE: Screeners Should Be Divided Into Groups.

Wed Jan 10, 2007 3:30 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 11):
That, and I'm sure the "blemish" screener could spot "quality" or "contrast" etc. Why spend the extra time on it?

I don't think he meant that each screener should only be checking for one possible rejection reason, but that each screener would have one aircraft category they'd look at, i.e. the "vintage" screener, the "warbird" screener and the "cockpit" shot screener.

However, it appears to me that the thread is here because somebody had a cockpit shot rejected and is now saying the rejecting screener has insufficient expertise when it comes to cockpits.... The whole debate is kinda pointless when it comes along without the photo in question. I do hope that even now screeners who find themselves looking at a photo that they feel uncertain about, ask for second opinions?
I'm an aviation expert. I have Sky Juice for breakfast.
 
jorge1812
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RE: Screeners Should Be Divided Into Groups.

Wed Jan 10, 2007 3:40 am

In my eyes special screeners for special categories would bring only more problems. Then it is harder to get certain pics accepted and more people would start to moan about the then higher standards tehy can't reach.

I have a cockpitshot of an A-310 online which sure would've been rejected by a "cockpit screener" for the windows being blown out.

Georg
 
IL76
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RE: Screeners Should Be Divided Into Groups.

Wed Jan 10, 2007 4:37 am

Quoting Pepef (Reply 10):
People don't want to change anything, so the site won't evolve

Funny, coming from someone who's photos look all the same, with multiple shots from the same airplane (cockpit) from the same angle, only the back of the heads of the pilots different... If something needs to evolve, it's you.

Ed
 
flyfisher1976
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RE: Screeners Should Be Divided Into Groups.

Wed Jan 10, 2007 4:37 am

Quoting ChrisH (Reply 6):
I can think of a few more... sycophants come to mind

According to Merriam-Webster Dictionary:

Main Entry: sy·co·phant

synonym see PARASITE

 laughing 
 
pepef
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RE: Screeners Should Be Divided Into Groups.

Wed Jan 10, 2007 5:17 am

Quoting IL76 (Reply 14):
Funny, coming from someone who's photos look all the same, with multiple shots from the same airplane (cockpit) from the same angle, only the back of the heads of the pilots different... If something needs to evolve, it's you.

You're right. You guys have rejected all photos that weren't taken from the same angle. Nice photos by the way:



View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Eduard Brantjes



View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Eduard Brantjes



View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Eduard Brantjes



View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Eduard Brantjes



View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Eduard Brantjes



View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Eduard Brantjes




-Pepef-
 
IL76
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RE: Screeners Should Be Divided Into Groups.

Wed Jan 10, 2007 5:22 am

But they are not the same aircraft, now are they?

...and I'm not complaining/whining if I get a rejection...

[Edited 2007-01-09 21:23:53]
 
JRadier
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RE: Screeners Should Be Divided Into Groups.

Wed Jan 10, 2007 5:24 am

Quoting Pepef (Reply 16):
You're right. You guys have rejected all photos that weren't taken from the same angle. Nice photos by the way:

Counting 5 (out of 6) different regs, and most of Eduard's shots are not KL MD-11 shots, but much more varied.
For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and ther
 
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ThierryD
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RE: Screeners Should Be Divided Into Groups.

Wed Jan 10, 2007 5:34 am

Oh, oops I must have taken a wrong direction somewhere; I've stranded in the kindergarten...
now let's find the way back into the aviation forum I was looking for...

I mean come on guys you all have nice pictures in the db; and if Peter likes Finnair cockpit shots then let him do it. It's not his fault that Finnair has only a limited number of aircraft and thus registrations are limited.

I must admit that I like the idea of dividing screeners into groups; I'd be in favor of 2 groups: one that accepts shots and the other that rejects them. All I need to know then is when which group is on duty.  Wink

Cheers,

Thierry
"Go ahead...make my day"
 
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clickhappy
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RE: Screeners Should Be Divided Into Groups.

Wed Jan 10, 2007 5:48 am

Peter likes Finnair cockpit shots then let him do it

Who told Peter to stop taking pictures of Finnair cockpits? Nobody has said that. What was said is that he has uploaded so many that most will be rejected, and that is why they go to Johan.

If Peter, or anyone else for that matter, takes pictures strictly on the hope that they will be accepted here they should find a new hobby. Do you take pictures just on the hope that they will be accepted? Seems pretty silly to me...
 
skidmarks
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RE: Screeners Should Be Divided Into Groups.

Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:00 am

Quoting ThierryD (Reply 19):
I must admit that I like the idea of dividing screeners into groups; I'd be in favor of 2 groups: one that accepts shots and the other that rejects them. All I need to know then is when which group is on duty.

I'm up for that Thierrry!! Big grin Just post a duty roster and bingo! No more rejections.  scratchchin 

Andy  old 
Growing old is compulsory, growing up is optional
 
jorge1812
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RE: Screeners Should Be Divided Into Groups.

Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:30 am

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 20):
anyone else for that matter, takes pictures strictly on the hope that they will be accepted here they should find a new hobby. Do you take pictures just on the hope that they will be accepted? Seems pretty silly to me...

 checkmark  checkmark  checkmark  checkmark 

I had to learn that for myslef too. Not here but on the other site I'm getting lot's of double rejections from Dresden simply because we have always the same LH, DE, KIS,... Regs and almost all angles all online. I know that some might say go out visit other airports, but I don't have much time/money/intention to do this all the time so I concentrate on my hobby and the pics taken for me not for .....net

Georg
 
Stealthz
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RE: Screeners Should Be Divided Into Groups.

Wed Jan 10, 2007 7:35 am

Quoting Pepef (Reply 10):
If there were 2-3 screeners/category, there wouldn't be a lot of inconsistency.

I agree 100%!


Trouble is all the photos in a particular category would be so consistent as to be almost the same, not sure that is the level of consistency we need here.

Cheers
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
 
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walter2222
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RE: Screeners Should Be Divided Into Groups.

Wed Jan 10, 2007 9:43 am

Quoting ThierryD (Reply 19):
All I need to know then is when which group is on duty.

 checkmark  ... and by the time the shots are at the end of the queue, the other group comes in...  rotfl   rotfl 

just kidding... only to say that I have been lucky - in some cases - to have "less than perfect quality" shots accepted (and I am sure lots of other uploaders will be in the same position) and I am not complaining about it (I even had a cockpit-shot accepted with the flash-reflection slightly visible in one of the screens)! Just to say that I can live with a world which is not 100% perfect, and A.net is only a very small part of this world...

Quoting Skidmarks (Reply 21):
Just post a duty roster and bingo!

... I lost it over the New Year  Smile

Enjoy your hobby!

Regards,

Walter
Canon 347d mkII ;-) - EFS10-22mm f/3.5-4.5 USM - EFS18-55mm - EF28-105mm f3.5/4.5 - EF100-400mm f4.5-5.6l IS USM - ...
 
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Kereru
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RE: Screeners Should Be Divided Into Groups.

Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:34 am

Quoting Pepef (Thread starter):
I think it's time the screeners were divided into groups

There are already 3 groups?
Screeners
Head Screeners
Johan

Quoting Pepef (Reply 10):
80% are passed on to Johan anyway. I wouldn't mind if he screened the other 20% as well.

As you have said Johan screens most of yours so no need for anymore groups. System is working fine. Rejects are a fact of life and should motivate to get a better one next time that best suits the sites criteria.

Cheers,

Colin  old 
Good things take Time.
 
jorge1812
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RE: Screeners Should Be Divided Into Groups.

Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:39 am

Quoting Walter2222 (Reply 24):
and A.net is only a very small part of this world...

Anet is just a part of the internet but for some people it has become part of the substantial life... Sad

Georg
 
LIPH
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RE: Screeners Should Be Divided Into Groups.

Wed Jan 10, 2007 11:24 pm

Quoting Pepef (Reply 10):
People don't want to change anything, so the site won't evolve.

I would correct your sentence in "...some people don't want to change anything...". Others want.
But the whole thing is not about who does want and who doesn't. I think that *basically* there is no *gain* in the change. I don't know what change would you like to implement or what you have in mind, but if changing means lower rejections and easier acceptances I think A.net will not follow this way for sure : instead things will be more and more difficult with time. A.net is the biggest and most famous internet database of aviation photography and people struggle to have their photo accepted here. For this reason A.net is considered "the best" in aviation photography : because of 100 photo uploaded, just 10, or even less, will be implemented in the DB. This creates 2 things : a challenge for photographers and an increasing fame of the website itself. And an increasing fame of the website means, from one side, more and more photographers trying to upload here, from the other side an increase in the traffic of the website and more "rumors"/media coverage. An increasing traffic and more "rumors"/media coverage means that media dedicated space on the website (eg. banners) will increase in price, and at last poeple can eventually sell their photos at an increased price, "just" because they're on A.net, or at last the will be able to show their pics to a more concerned odiens. In this sense I don't feel things will change. A.net sets the standards. Imagine to have your photo accepted on an issue of National Geographic. And imagine to have the same pic accepted in your local newspaper. Now : who gives you more visibility ? The game is that easy also on A.net. Photographers look for visibility. The tougher is to get accepted the better is for A.net and the few photographers who make it...This is it. There is no real gain in lowering the rejections, being them fair or unfair. It's just up to the screeners decide "what's in" and "what's out". You could meet a low quality, uncentered shot in the DB, but if the screeners have decided it is ok, you cannot complain. You could have received what you belive is an unfair rejection but if the screeners have decided it is a bad shot they can show you tons of defects. You cannot escape this game if you want to stay on A.net.

Regards
Life sucks. Then you die. Live fast, die young.
 
mirage
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RE: Screeners Should Be Divided Into Groups.

Wed Jan 10, 2007 11:44 pm

I have a suggestion, not related with this thread but something I've been thinking for a while. If I'm not mistaken a photo needs 3 screeners validation to be accepted and it needs only 1 to be rejected (if I'm wrong please correct me). Why not 3 screeners to accept and 3 screeners to reject? if there is so careful attention to accept a photo (3 persons) there should be the same careful attention to reject it (also 3 persons). Human error is normal, so let's try to add some redundancy to the rejection process in the same way as in the acception process.

thanks
Luis
 
LIPH
Posts: 841
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RE: Screeners Should Be Divided Into Groups.

Thu Jan 11, 2007 12:07 am

Quoting Mirage (Reply 28):

Luis,
if you read my message, you should understand that such a change is not really in the A.net politic, because at the end it would just lower rejections. Whatever change which could have as a result a lower rejections ratio is a "no go" with A.net, for all the reasons I previously explained.

Regards
Life sucks. Then you die. Live fast, die young.
 
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acontador
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RE: Screeners Should Be Divided Into Groups.

Thu Jan 11, 2007 12:25 am

Hi Luis,

In the past I also thought about that, but now I would say that the only effect of this would be to increase the screeners work, increase queue/waiting time, but I would not expect any reduction in rejections. Why? If one screener finds something in the picture, he would tick it in a box and pass it on to another screener (instead of just straight rejection), but the next screener would have a look at the image AND the box ticked, thus lead to find same problem. You see my point? In the end it would just get three rejections instead of one, so no gain, but much more work for screeners. Now we can appeal if we find that the picture was wrongfully rejected, and thus have a new pair of eyes look at it.
Just sit back, relax and have a glass of Merlot...enjoy your life!
 
mirage
Posts: 3612
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RE: Screeners Should Be Divided Into Groups.

Thu Jan 11, 2007 12:31 am

I know it would increase the screeners work, I'm just thinking in the fairness of the system to both accepted and rejected images and taking into consideration the human error, just this.

Luis
 
codeshare
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RE: Screeners Should Be Divided Into Groups.

Thu Jan 11, 2007 12:34 am

Luis has a point there, but it is very highly unlikely for this to happen.

What's more the site is evolving in its own way, but it's the photographers who upload that are forcing the bar to go up.

KS/codeshare
How much A is there is Airliners Net ? 0 or nothing ?
 
Psych
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RE: Screeners Should Be Divided Into Groups.

Thu Jan 11, 2007 12:48 am

If you want a scrupulously 'fair' and equitable system for rejections you would go for something like this:

* First screener views the shot and makes their assessment.

* Photo passed on to another screener, but they do not see the decision of the first. They then make their assessment of the shot.

* At this point, 2 rejections and the photo is rejected. But if one screener said 'okay' and one said 'no' then it goes to a third screener, for another independent assessment. Then the majority opinion will result in the final decision - i.e. 2:1 accept = accept; 2:1 reject = reject.

There are loads of issues and counter-arguments to such a system, but I shall not go into them here as some will doubtless have something to say about the length of my posts. I am sure something like this (minus the 'blind' nature of the initial assessments) already does go on in the screening of many 'borderline' photos - but clearly not all photos. Needless to say I don't think there is an appetite amongst the crew members (and other members) to change the system.

Cheers.

Paul
 
LIPH
Posts: 841
Joined: Mon May 17, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: Screeners Should Be Divided Into Groups.

Thu Jan 11, 2007 12:51 am

Quoting Acontador (Reply 30):
I would say that the only effect of this would be to increase the screeners work

If this would be the real part of the problem, new screeners could be always hired...From my point of view, this is not the point...

Quoting Acontador (Reply 30):
Now we can appeal if we find that the picture was wrongfully rejected

I don't think there is a high rate of appealed and then accepted shots. Screeners are good and trained enough to reject a pic at first sight. Only exceptions could be some NOA motive shots.

Quoting Mirage (Reply 31):
taking into consideration the human error

I do not think there is any human error in the way photos are screened but just *choices made* by screeners. And screeners schoices are almost like the "verdict of a court". No many chances to change...

Quoting Codeshare (Reply 32):
Luis has a point there, but it is very highly unlikely for this to happen.

Unlikely to happen because, as I said, it would just cause a lower rejection ratio, and this is against A.net iself and all photographers who make it.

Quoting Codeshare (Reply 32):
What's more the site is evolving in its own way, but it's the photographers who upload that are forcing the bar to go up.

Can you explain to me what you mean ?

Regards
Life sucks. Then you die. Live fast, die young.
 
LIPH
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RE: Screeners Should Be Divided Into Groups.

Thu Jan 11, 2007 1:02 am

Quoting Psych (Reply 33):
Needless to say I don't think there is an appetite amongst the crew members (and other members) to change the system.

Paul,
I think you got the point here : as I'm trying to say, every change which will have as a consequence to lower the rejection ratio, and/or to higher the acceptance one is against A.net itself...

Regards
Life sucks. Then you die. Live fast, die young.
 
mirage
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RE: Screeners Should Be Divided Into Groups.

Thu Jan 11, 2007 1:04 am

ok, so be it.

Luis
 
LIPH
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RE: Screeners Should Be Divided Into Groups.

Thu Jan 11, 2007 1:13 am

Quoting Mirage (Reply 36):
ok, so be it.

Luis,
it's nothing personal, believe me.  Smile

Regards
Life sucks. Then you die. Live fast, die young.
 
codeshare
Posts: 1689
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RE: Screeners Should Be Divided Into Groups.

Thu Jan 11, 2007 2:53 am

Quoting LIPH (Reply 34):
Quoting Codeshare (Reply 32):
What's more the site is evolving in its own way, but it's the photographers who upload that are forcing the bar to go up.

Can you explain to me what you mean ?

It's as simple as getting a better camera for example or getting a better photo editing program.

KS/codeshare
How much A is there is Airliners Net ? 0 or nothing ?
 
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clickhappy
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RE: Screeners Should Be Divided Into Groups.

Thu Jan 11, 2007 3:37 am

Paul - it basically takes two or more screeners to reject anything marginal these days, we are only flat out rejecting shots that suck so bad are obviously lacking in quality, it would be a huge waste of time to have screeners looking at utter crap mulitple times.

"Blind" screening doesn't work, knowing who is doing what helps us to be more consitent, and brings in each screeners knowledge about things like "does this runway slope" or "has a lightpole been cloned?"

There are too many examples to list.
 
Psych
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RE: Screeners Should Be Divided Into Groups.

Thu Jan 11, 2007 4:34 am

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 39):
Paul - it basically takes two or more screeners to reject anything marginal these days, we are only flat out rejecting shots that suck so bad are obviously lacking in quality, it would be a huge waste of time to have screeners looking at utter crap multiple times.

"Blind" screening doesn't work, knowing who is doing what helps us to be more consitent, and brings in each screeners knowledge about things like "does this runway slope" or "has a lightpole been cloned?"

I know Royal - as I said:

Quoting Psych (Reply 33):
There are loads of issues and counter-arguments to such a system, but I shall not go into them here

Maybe it may be worth going over some of the pros and cons for some - but I shall leave that to others for now.

Paul
 
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clickhappy
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RE: Screeners Should Be Divided Into Groups.

Thu Jan 11, 2007 4:45 am

A better idea is to not change anything. Maybe we fine tune things, but the system works, and even if it did change there would be people who will complain and want changes. You will never satisfy 100% of the people, and change just for the sake of change is dumb.

We do listen to ideas, for instance the appeals counting against your rejection total. We fixed that. But we are not going to be creating groups of screeners, or not seeing the photogs name when we screen a photo, or not knowing which screeners have already seen an image. Those ideas are nonstarters.

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