lasham
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Is Anet Now Too Hard For New Photographers?

Sun Jan 21, 2007 5:51 am

Hi

As a screener I see how high the quality bar is now set. But this made me think how hard it must be for new photographers to get started on Anet.
I was easy for most of us who started a few years ago on anet but today it must be very frustrating for new young photographers.
When screening I see photos from countries that are new to aircraft photography and as is to be expected the quality can be lower than the UK or USA where aviation photography has been going on for years.

Is it time to relax the rules a little?

Over to you.

Tony
No sun no fun
 
MidEx216
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RE: Is Anet Now Too Hard For New Photographers?

Sun Jan 21, 2007 6:05 am

I personally think that high quality standards are good to have, but there's a certain limit to that. It comes when you get to the point of saying "You may not be able to see it, but you're picture isn't near good enough." I think standards should be high, but not to the point that only pro level photographers with $1000s worth of equipment can get it. That's a reliance on the camera, not the photographer's actual skill (with few exceptions). I have a high level camera (in between the pocket types and an SLR) and I still seem unable to get pictures worthy of the database. It should be more dependent on excellent pictures, not flawless, perfect pictures. That's overkill. (I actually do know one person who has some of the most amazing photos I've seen; he's my mentor, in a way - and he's left A.net because of the lack of consistency with screening (in his own words). He even doesn't upload shots anymore because they are "too artsy for A.net")

P. Valenstein

[Edited 2007-01-20 22:12:24]
 
TedTAce
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RE: Is Anet Now Too Hard For New Photographers?

Sun Jan 21, 2007 6:13 am

Yes it might be too hard but should the standards be relaxed?: No!!
An ABSOLUTE and RESOUNDING NO!!

I am workig my ass of to even come up with a shot worth submitting and I know once I get there, and once it is accepted it will be validation of the hard work I know I will have done. The only excuse for a crappy shot in the official DB is an accident scene as it is happening, elsewise, it's just laziness.
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9V
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RE: Is Anet Now Too Hard For New Photographers?

Sun Jan 21, 2007 6:16 am

Quoting Lasham (Thread starter):
how hard it must be for new photographers to get started on Anet.

Impossibe?
 Big grin
 
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ptrjong
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RE: Is Anet Now Too Hard For New Photographers?

Sun Jan 21, 2007 6:32 am

Quoting Lasham (Thread starter):
today it must be very frustrating for new young photographers.

I often feel the same. I started uploading in autumn 2004 and while a couple of my earliest pictures would still make it, most would not.

Quoting Lasham (Thread starter):
Is it time to relax the rules a little?

It would be difficult to do something about this, though. Do you relax the rules for the first picture, or the first ten or? And after that the new guys would still hit the 'quality barrier', unless you coach them intensively and that is probably not feasible.

Quoting Lasham (Thread starter):
When screening I see photos from countries that are new to aircraft photography and as is to be expected the quality can be lower than the UK or USA where aviation photography has been going on for years.

If there are few photos from a country, that makes them rare, anway, so perhaps the only thing that needs to be done for new photographers from these countries is to take photo location into account more.

Peter 

[Edited 2007-01-20 22:33:42]
The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
 
photopilot
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RE: Is Anet Now Too Hard For New Photographers?

Sun Jan 21, 2007 6:55 am

Honestly, it's not the absolute quality issue that has stopped my uploading to A.net, it's the assinine rules and how they have become so formula-matic that it's stupid.

When it's now become.... (for example)

- 2 or 3 pixels in front, 2 or 3 pixels in back and crop it right to the AC.

- Arguing about 1/10 of a degree off level.

- Measuring and counting the pixels to decide if an image is "Badcentered" top to bottom.

- If you can't "count the rivets", it's not sharp enough.

When it comes to editing... and taking 1 hour or more, masking, layers, etc, in Photoshop to post-process an image... well what more needs to be said.

I call it the A.net Formula approach to images for a DataBase. It's no longer just aircraft photography for the joy of it.

IMHO
Steve
 
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JeffM
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RE: Is Anet Now Too Hard For New Photographers?

Sun Jan 21, 2007 7:05 am

Quoting Lasham (Thread starter):
Is Anet Now Too Hard For New Photographers?

Is the F1 circuit, the IRL, or NASCAR too dificult for a new 16 year old driver? Should they even consider trying to race in any of those events?

Please roll back the rules to like they were 4-5 years ago. Don't worry about the site's reputation. Making things easier always makes people improve.

Doesn't it?
 
Rotate
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RE: Is Anet Now Too Hard For New Photographers?

Sun Jan 21, 2007 7:20 am

Quoting Lasham (Thread starter):
Is Anet Now Too Hard For New Photographers?

No .


Robin
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lasham
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RE: Is Anet Now Too Hard For New Photographers?

Sun Jan 21, 2007 7:25 am

Did forget to say that when I started aviation photography (a long long time before Anet & the web) my shots were very poor and when sending them to magazines they would get rejected. But it took time and after a few years I got my first shot published when my standard had improved a bit. So I guess its going to have to be the same for the new photographers of today on anet.

Tony
No sun no fun
 
eadster
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RE: Is Anet Now Too Hard For New Photographers?

Sun Jan 21, 2007 7:47 am

Quoting Lasham (Thread starter):
Is it time to relax the rules a little?

Depends...

Quoting Photopilot (Reply 5):
Arguing about 1/10 of a degree off level.

With petty crap like this yes. If a shot is 0.02 of a degree off, then get real! Thats just being a pain in the rear from Anets end.

Quality wise no, leave them as is. This of course makes it difficult for young guys that can't afford that camera to improve quality, to get shots accepted. But then again, Anet is only a small and very small part of the aviation photography pie.

Quoting Photopilot (Reply 5):
When it comes to editing... and taking 1 hour or more, masking, layers, etc, in Photoshop to post-process an image... well what more needs to be said.

I've personally have found that if you are editing a shot over anymore than 5 mins, in the aim to get accepted here, it simply ain't gonna get on. Anyway, the shot should not be that screwed up that if it takes one that long to get it looking right. To me, if it doesn't look right after a level, crop, resize, dustspot check, colour check and sharpen, it ain't gonna star here. That should take a few mins to complete. Even then, you get to know what looks good and what doesn't once it comes off the camera.

So basically, Quality standards, no leave them, they are fine.
Petty standards like 2 pixels out of centre, or its 0.000001 degree outa wack, then yeah, let up a bit.
 
spencer
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RE: Is Anet Now Too Hard For New Photographers?

Sun Jan 21, 2007 7:54 am

I do believe a lot of great shots are going missed here due to the inconsistencies in screening. That has nothing to do with the rules perhaps? But, that isn't what you asked! I think there could be a little more leniency given out when it's a perfect pic yet not "A.net perfect".
Spencer.
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acontador
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RE: Is Anet Now Too Hard For New Photographers?

Sun Jan 21, 2007 7:57 am

Hi Tony,

Thanks for starting this topic!

Quoting Lasham (Thread starter):
how hard it must be for new photographers to get started on Anet.

Definitely, it is hard to get your first pics accepted, even harder to work up the acceptance ratio level.

Quoting Lasham (Thread starter):
Is it time to relax the rules a little?

Well, I would say yes and no. I do appreciate the high standard A.net requires from us photogs, and it is exactly that same standard which makes up for most of A.nets reputation, so I would say no. But then again, we have seen here in the forum hundreds if not thousands of pictures, which are simply great but fail to meet all A.net criteria to get accepted (not talking about quality).
This is no new proposal, but having a new category, like Artistic pics, would give many photogs a chance to develop a different side of our craft. And developing some tool to allow for some sort of prescreening would help a long way both photogs and screeners to make all our lives easier. For me this is crucial in order to have less frustration among photogs and less work for screeners, and I am sure this is technically easy to develop.
All in all, while we all probably would feel better with less rejections, in the long run keeping quality high is the way to go.
Just sit back, relax and have a glass of Merlot...enjoy your life!
 
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Ryan h
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RE: Is Anet Now Too Hard For New Photographers?

Sun Jan 21, 2007 8:02 am

I can see where people are coming from in that photos are rejected for the slightest flaw that only the screener would notice and the main audience of this site, people at home/work etc viewing the photos arern't going to care about a photo being 0.02 of a degree level.

In my opinion the extreme standards have put people off from uploading and will continiue to in the future. You will only see photos from the same small band of die hards who know how to play the rules.
South Australian Spotter www.ryanhothersall.net
 
CalgaryBill
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RE: Is Anet Now Too Hard For New Photographers?

Sun Jan 21, 2007 8:17 am

As a newbie myself with only 4 photos in the DB I would say "No, do not relax the standards for anyone." There are sites out there for any old aviation shot, keep the standards high here and people will continue to rise to the bar.

B
 
scottieprecord
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RE: Is Anet Now Too Hard For New Photographers?

Sun Jan 21, 2007 8:20 am

Keep 'em high. As for people bitching about minute rejections (lil off center or level), get it right in the first place. That's the easiest correction to make while editing.

The extremely high standards are what attract people to this site. As the standards get higher, some people bitch and leave, but just as many, if not more, are getting hooked on aviation photography and coming to Anet. The two extremes when it comes to quality are myaviation.net and airliners.net. Ask yourself which you like more, and that should answer the question about lowering or raising quality levels...

Plus, as standards have risen, so has the technology of photographic equipment to match that. So, overall it probably hasn't gotten all the match harder to get accepted here.

-Mike

P.S. What pisses people off is not the high quality, it's inconsistencies in screening. There's a difference...
 
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ThierryD
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RE: Is Anet Now Too Hard For New Photographers?

Sun Jan 21, 2007 8:24 am

I was kinda surprised to see this thread being started by a screener but thank you Tony for doing so; I think it´s a nice topic to have a discussion about.

I don´t believe lowering the standards for new photographers will help anyone; of course it would increase their motivation for a short period but at one point you´ll have to apply the high standards again and the new photographer will start from the beginning again. And imagine all the "old" photographers who get their shots rejected for some small issue and see an accepted photo in the db with a very obvious flaw: that´s gonna lead to endless inconsistency discussions and I think we all start to get tired of those.

The only thing that will help is maintain the current standards but apply them as consistently as possible with some amount of common sense; with common sense I mean that there is no need to reject a shot only because it´s levelled 0.15 degrees off or centered 10 pixels off or for contrast because the black reference is 0/0/1 and not 0/0/0. Because that is NOT accepting photos by the rules but only nitpicking and apart from keeping ever more (respected) photographers away from uploading to A.net it doesn´t do anybody any good.

As for the current standards a common reference as to what is accepted and what not is a most helpful tool and though I´m sure I´ll get on some people´s nerves by advertising it over and over again I can only point out that such a reference exists and that any feedback is most welcome (also and especially from screeners like you Tony as you have the background info many people need).

The reference guide can be found here: Illustrated Guide To Rejection Reasons (by ThierryD Dec 25 2006 in Aviation Photography)
Direct link:
http://planecatcher.com/IGRR.htm

Hoping that this discussion will lead to something positive!

Cheers,

Thierry
"Go ahead...make my day"
 
Psych
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RE: Is Anet Now Too Hard For New Photographers?

Sun Jan 21, 2007 8:37 am

A very important question, Tony, and nice to see a debate like this again here.

Doubtless if I were starting now, without the knowledge I have gained from being a member, I would fail miserably to succeed. Having said that, this is exactly what happened to me over 2 years ago. I shot, edited, uploaded, and read my rejection emails regularly.

The key (for me) is whether that new photographer is keen to learn what is required of him or her; can find out the information/get the help they need here; and feels they are being encouraged, not discouraged.

When I began I did not have a username for a couple of months, so was acting pretty much in the dark. Not what I would recommend. I believe more needs to be done to help new uploaders - with better guidance and information. From things like illustrated guides to rejections (Thierry's is a great start, but why so little crew input?) to better upload guidance - e.g. the upload page itself, which is just as it was in '04, with that annoyingly unclear information which confused me (and others) into uploading at 1600 wide initially (why not encourage new uploaders to use the dimensions 1024 x 683 - had the upload page told me that it would have helped me a lot in my early days). I still believe certain things could be rewritten to make life a lot easier for those new to the site.

Generally I am content with a high standard. But I am not wholly content with the way things get communicated here. Focus on the latter will make the former easier for some to tolerate.

All the best.

Paul

P.S. One further point, if I may. Though not a screener I have developed screeners' eyes when viewing photos now. I am very critical, and thus I can understand when photos are rejected for things like minor levelling inaccuracies - if it is visible - and other minor aspects of the shot; particularly when the screener may believe that the problem can easily be rectified. The key is not so much that - it is helping the photographer know what to do. Personal messages cannot be given to all - the rejection emails often really don't help you know what was wrong at all. What people need is a place to go to learn more - like the illustrated guide. Why is Thierry constantly having to plug that? It should be being integrated and linked on the site itself and be receiving regular input from crew, for it to develop as a resource.

[Edited 2007-01-21 00:50:17]
 
G-CIVP
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RE: Is Anet Now Too Hard For New Photographers?

Sun Jan 21, 2007 8:43 am

Thiery - this thread wasn't supposed to be a plug for your 'rejection site!'.  Wink

Knowing Tony, ashe has mentioned this in conversation to me, here is my take. For certain regions of the world, where it is more difficult to achieve the standards expected, could the rules be relaxed? In context, these would be photos from certain parts of South America and Africa. Obviously there would need to be a certain acceptability, but couldn't there be some exceptions to the rules?
 
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walter2222
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RE: Is Anet Now Too Hard For New Photographers?

Sun Jan 21, 2007 8:49 am

Quoting ThierryD (Reply 15):
I don´t believe lowering the standards for new photographers will help anyone; of course it would increase their motivation for a short period but at one point you´ll have to apply the high standards again and the new photographer will start from the beginning again. And imagine all the "old" photographers who get their shots rejected for some small issue and see an accepted photo in the db with a very obvious flaw: that´s gonna lead to endless inconsistency discussions and I think we all start to get tired of those.

 checkmark 

What could help the new photographers - according to me - is help/coaching. A lot of beginners ask guidance and advise via this forum (I am still doing that, because I am still eager to learn and to improve), but I think that there are also uploaders that don't visit the forum or have not even heard about this:

Quoting ThierryD (Reply 15):
The reference guide can be found here:
Illustrated Guide To Rejection Reasons (by ThierryD Dec 25 2006 in Aviation Photography)
Direct link:
http://planecatcher.com/IGRR.htm

According to me, the ones that ask for pre-screening and take the advice are learning fast and also reduce the workload for screeners (because of less rejections). My suggestion would be for new uploaders (i.e. the ones that are not using this forum) to be coached by one of the very experienced uploaders, before they start filling the queue. I am not sure that there would be enough volunteers to do this coaching (I have no idea about the numbers of new uploaders per week/month?). Another idea might be to "force" new uploaders onto the forum and reserve a specific thread for this...

Best regards,

Walter
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picturethis
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RE: Is Anet Now Too Hard For New Photographers?

Sun Jan 21, 2007 8:53 am

Hi,

It took me about 15 uploads to get my first one accepted in 2005.

I was under the assumption that there was some liaison given for new uploaders and their first few photos anyway?

I think that the standard should remain as it is now for the moment.

PictureThis

[Edited 2007-01-21 00:56:22]
Make sure they know we're playing the game, but we don't need to play the game because we've already won the game.
 
CJA
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RE: Is Anet Now Too Hard For New Photographers?

Sun Jan 21, 2007 8:55 am

Perhaps it would help if Anet could declare its aims, then people could make better judgements about what they upload which might lead to less disappointment. My view is that this is not a philanthropic organisation looking to provide just anyone with a place to exhibit their work. Its a database of aviation photographs with a view to making money from the content, and why not? Bandwidth costs money so why fill the database with low quality shots when ample similar shots of higher quality already exist. As has been stated a thousand times, lower standards are applied to rare shots and higher standards to common shots. Surely this makes reasonable sense. I would say new members from countries with little exposure here are therefore likely to be given a little more latitude. Real frustration is only caused when the perceived rules are applied inconsistently

The advice given to me by a then Anet screener back in 2003 when I came back to this hobby was start on the other site which is more sympathetic to newcomers and less dismissive both in screening and in the advice given to those who want to learn. Sorry but I would say that this still holds true.
 
aussie18
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RE: Is Anet Now Too Hard For New Photographers?

Sun Jan 21, 2007 9:13 am

Quoting Eadster (Reply 9):
So basically, Quality standards, no leave them, they are fine.
Petty standards like 2 pixels out of centre, or its 0.000001 degree outa wack, then yeah, let up a bit.

I agree with Martin,
I think qaulity issues should remain high but petty issues,like abit off level,few pixels,maybe wrong category ticked/not ticked by accident should be relaxed abit.
 
airplanenut
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RE: Is Anet Now Too Hard For New Photographers?

Sun Jan 21, 2007 9:21 am

I think the high standards are high, but I think perhaps there should be some leniency/different category, as was stated above, for artsy shots, which often don't afford the conditions needed for perfect shots. For example, I uploaded the following shot 3 or 4 times, I believe, before it got on, with most versions looking pretty similar:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Jeremy Katz



I'll be the first to tell you the shot's not perfect, but at the same time, it's a much less reproducible shot than the same vantage point in the middle of the afternoon with a blue sky.

Additionally, perhaps with the artsy category could go some of the motive rejections. Hold those shots to the same quality standards as regular shots, but allow a little more diversity and angle differences in the shots that join the website.

Jeremy
Why yes, in fact, I am a rocket scientist...
 
locsta
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RE: Is Anet Now Too Hard For New Photographers?

Sun Jan 21, 2007 9:48 am

To me being a newer member trying to upload to this site is like trial by fire, lots of questions with little to no feedback from people that actually know whats going on. My guess is that alot of new photogs probably aren't masochistic enough to deal with it (ie. 1st reject for "soft", 2nd time for "oversharp" and then a nice "motiv" reject to defeat any hope you had left).
There are definately some good hearted and very knowledgeable people that frequent the forums and do their best to help out fellow shooters, but many times even they are scratching their head with a question about a rejection. While the screeners only seem to respond when they feel like it or if the thread is titled "Hey you stupid screeners!!! Whats your problem!!!!" then they are all in there posting about what a thankless job they have volunteered for.
Maybe there could be a dedicated liaison/screener that was assigned to the forums and could help bridge the gap in understanding between the photogs and the screening process. (probably unrealistic, but just a suggestion)
As I see it now, just because you are getting shots accepted here doesn't mean you are a fabulous photog, but that you figured out how to conform to the box that has been set. Once those shooters are gone most of the new and soon to be great shooters won't be here because they have been turned off by the current process in place and moved elsewhere to practice and hone their skills.

Kevin
Missed 4 chasing 1
 
Stealthz
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RE: Is Anet Now Too Hard For New Photographers?

Sun Jan 21, 2007 9:51 am

Damn you Tony!!!
Over the last few days I had become disillusioned with the threads in this forum, it seemed overcome with "will this make it". "is this a good motive" threads and no real discussion on photographic issues, while at SYD this morning I had been formulating a post saying as much.
What happens, I arrive home to find a meaningful discussion that has real depth and valid contributions from the community.. thread being started by a screener is a bonus.

OK to the topic, are standards too high for beginners? No.

Should quality standards be relaxed a touch? No.

Should more attention be given to photographic merit? Yes

Ok those are sometimes contradictory aims but Anet whilst always positioning itself as a database rather than a gallery has perhaps outgrown the database concept.

Should there be a seperate Artistic category? Very much doubt it
Photographic merit is more, often much more than an extra pixel in front of the nose or .1degree angle. It is certainly much more than a lucky shot that was intended to be a "safe side on" turning into an "artsy" shot just by pure luck.

Quoting Aussie18 (Reply 21):
maybe wrong category ticked/not ticked by accident should be relaxed abit.

Not sure I agree with this, I think it is part of the photographers role to get it right, but I do feel there should be the ability to correct and amend info whilst still in the queue.

I won't quote Paul's post, he has said pretty much what I wanted to only much more eloquently.
His point about "screeners eye", I too get fewer rejections than I used to, I look at things how I think(may be completely wrong) a screener would and if I don't think it will succeed it doesn't get uploaded.. saves the "heartache" of a rejection message and keeps the queue short!!

Cheers
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
 
TedTAce
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RE: Is Anet Now Too Hard For New Photographers?

Sun Jan 21, 2007 10:41 am

Quoting Photopilot (Reply 5):
It's no longer just aircraft photography for the joy of it.

I have never gotten the impression this site was for that. Let me tell you I know I am shooting a ton of crap right now, a FEW of those shots make it on to my desktop at work because while they are not A.net quality: I LIKE THE SHOTS.

Quoting JeffM (Reply 6):
Is the F1 circuit, the IRL, or NASCAR too dificult for a new 16 year old driver? Should they even consider trying to race in any of those events?

Please roll back the rules to like they were 4-5 years ago. Don't worry about the site's reputation. Making things easier always makes people improve.

Doesn't it?

 rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 

I do have to amend my obtuse statment about imperfection in anything other then an accident photo being lazyness. I agree with the point that there are going to be times where the artistic value of the shot should be weighed against the standards. I also kind of agree about the precise centering and leveling. Sometimes it's just not possible when you are at an odd angle to the event. the focus should be on getting crisp clean and enjoyable aircraft photos that make sense to a 3 year old in the DB.
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ptrjong
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RE: Is Anet Now Too Hard For New Photographers?

Sun Jan 21, 2007 11:11 am

While action shots are tough because of speeds and conditions at airports, it's really not difficult to go to roam around your local aerodrome or aviation museum and produce uploadable shots like these (examples are my own in order not to criticize anyone's work).

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Peter de Jong
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Peter de Jong



So Paul is right, the problem for newcomers often will not be the technical quality of the photos, but the editing and the peculiarities of airliners.net rules and requirements. I'm not saying that these should be any different, but that they should be explained better.

For example, for leveling you're encouraged to trust the verticals of a tree for leveling over a perfect horizon - if you actually do this, your picture will be rejected of course. For example, the 'classic' category is for airliners but the help text suggests it is for any old aircraft. For example, a close-up of a control tower is in a.net terms an 'airport overview.' I could go on and on.

For a newcomer this creates a minefield of potential rejections quite unrelated to the quality of his or her photos. After an unintelligible rejection or three, people probably call it a day. I say, review any texts relating to the upload process with the same thoroughness that photos are screened with  Smile

Peter
The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
 
aussie18
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RE: Is Anet Now Too Hard For New Photographers?

Sun Jan 21, 2007 11:31 am

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 24):
Not sure I agree with this, I think it is part of the photographers role to get it right, but I do feel there should be the ability to correct and amend info whilst still in the queue.

Well sometimes we make a mistake by forgetting to tick a box or something similar and find out its rejected because of a simple error.

Okay if some photographers abuse by doing it regular reject them but say you upload a shot and forget to tick something than maybe abit of leanancy could be used.

Some screeners leave comment stating category rejection yet if they had option to just tick box and leave comment just saying you forgot to tick certain box.
 
eadster
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RE: Is Anet Now Too Hard For New Photographers?

Sun Jan 21, 2007 12:34 pm

Quoting Aussie18 (Reply 27):
Well sometimes we make a mistake by forgetting to tick a box or something similar and find out its rejected because of a simple error.

That's where something great like being able to change details while pics are in the Q but thats another discussion...
 
MidEx216
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RE: Is Anet Now Too Hard For New Photographers?

Sun Jan 21, 2007 1:02 pm

Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 26):
For example, a close-up of a control tower is in a.net terms an 'airport overview.' I could go on and on

or sometimes it's even considered bad motive, if there's nothing "special" about the tower...
 
phxplanes
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RE: Is Anet Now Too Hard For New Photographers?

Sun Jan 21, 2007 3:46 pm

It sounds like maybe the standards should be lowered a little but not to the point where the shots arent even nice to look at. I think if the standards are lowered just slightly, we might see a lot more interesting shots and participation.

Also an idea, would it be possible to have a super high qaulity database and a lower qaulity database. Not like myaviation but something where motive is not as big of a deal or it has to be perfectly level, maybe a little grain in the photo is still acceptable. Just a thought.
 
Kukkudrill
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RE: Is Anet Now Too Hard For New Photographers?

Sun Jan 21, 2007 5:33 pm

I don't think the standards should be lowered ... provided that they can be applied fairly objectively.

I'm not referring to motive, which is a minefield of subjectivity and must inevitably remain that way, but to "technical" things like sharpness/softness. If the tolerances get so fine that the same photo could be judged by one screener as soft and the other as oversharp depending on their respective monitors (and I suspect we're reaching that point), then it's time to back off a little bit.

Having said that I think it would be good policy to be slightly more lenient towards new uploaders - though I think screeners already do this. Sure, it means new uploaders will hit a barrier after their first few successful uploads but at least they will have had some initial encouragement and will already be part-way up the learning curve by then. They would be less likely to feel that a.net is some sort of exclusive club.
Make the most of the available light ... a lesson of photography that applies to life
 
dendrobatid
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RE: Is Anet Now Too Hard For New Photographers?

Sun Jan 21, 2007 6:18 pm

An interesting discussion.
I actually feel that there is very little wrong with the current standards though I accept that many would feel that I am bound to say that. The standards are high but they are attainable by most people.
In life, not just in photography, things that are difficult have always maintained my interest for longer than things that are easy. Less than three years ago I submitted my first picture here, rejected several times for quality and finally accepted. It has been re-uploaded twice since then as my standards have increased. I would like to re-scan and re-upload all of my early stuff but simply don't have the time.
To use arbitrary figures which have absolutely no significance in the actual screening process........
If 100% is a perfect photo and 90% is our acceptance rate, the majority of submissions fit between 50 and 85%. Most forum users would reject the ones below 50% in a microsecond, maybe from the thumbnail! The ones between 85 and 90%, just rejected, are invariably subject to discussion amongst screeners and amongst those who use the forum, end up here. Motive is both the most contentious and subjective. The unusual motive is not always good and is frequently tried by those least able to get away with it, to succesfully push the boundaries. Angle is also frequently contentious. Tell is what you have used and we will check that. We don't always agree but that is a start. Rejections for being 0.2 degrees are rare (though we do not measure) but can on occasion be significant as in a horizon across a landscape image.
The standards are lower for something very new or very old and that is a frequent comment between screeners but we will still not accept if there are CORRECTABLE errors. Nor will we accept a sub-standard image of a new aircraft if we are likely to have masses more within a few days. The site has to balance between being a database and a photo gallery and manages, on the whole to do both. Have a good look and every day poor quality images of incredibly rare, usually old, aircraft are accepted, often I must say, mine
When considering uploading there are choices to make. You can come here and work to achieve our standards. You can go to 'the other side' and work to achieve their subtly different standards (they do not accept rubbish either) and there are many other sites too. There is always myaviation net with little or no screening.
I have made my choice, partly because it was so bloody difficult. If you are still with me now, so have you.
Mick Bajcar
 
D L X
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RE: Is Anet Now Too Hard For New Photographers?

Sun Jan 21, 2007 6:35 pm

Standards are fine (to the extent that we should have "standards"), with these caveats:

"Quality" rejection should not be used for any shot that is close. (As in, only use quality to suggest to the uploader that he shouldn't bother re-editing. Otherwise, give us the real reason. Use personal messages if you have to.)

Nit picking should go.

Artistic allowance should be granted. (Perfect centering, tight cropping, and exact level are subjective things - allow the photographer to be the guide of the photograph's appearance.)

Encourage daring shots.
Encourage daring shots.
Encourage daring shots.

Oh, and Johan should screen his queue more often.

[Edited 2007-01-21 10:38:24]
 
OD720
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RE: Is Anet Now Too Hard For New Photographers?

Sun Jan 21, 2007 6:49 pm

Dear all,

I want to give my thoughts on the 2 questions raised by Tony here.

First the new uploaders or photographers. I always thought that it's very hard for the newcomer to be able to have enough photos here even when all his/her shots were getting accepted. I know that Johan did address the issue a few months ago.

The second is the rare locations and I think this is really important, at least it's exciting for me. Since Tony is a screener, probably he bumps into shots taken at rare airports and getting rejected because they don't meet the Airliners standards. I know that there are countries that have less than 10 photos here.

So if the photographer is new and from such a rare place, let's encourage him/her. I think I would go as far as offering help to such people, by editing their photos or giving them advice. I actually do this for local photographers who want to upload their shots to this site and will do it regarding other rare locations as well.
I think this is the point that Tony is making, from what I read in his first post.

Best regards,
Vatche
 
ChrisZRH
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RE: Is Anet Now Too Hard For New Photographers?

Sun Jan 21, 2007 7:01 pm

IMO the standards should not be lowered, but the generosity to some special shots should be increased

For example, just to pick out three

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Javier Guerrero - AirTeamImages



View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © TriplET



View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Ryan C. Umphrey



They don't fulfill the "perfect anet rules", but are exactly those shots which keep me sticking to a.net and it's not those regular side-ons which are uploaded "on masse". And by having a quick look at the popularity, I guess a lot people would agree here.

Quoting Spencer (Reply 10):
I do believe a lot of great shots are going missed here due to the inconsistencies in screening. That has nothing to do with the rules perhaps? But, that isn't what you asked! I think there could be a little more leniency given out when it's a perfect pic yet not "A.net perfect".
Spencer.

... just what I would say, there must be so many great pics we are missing...

chris
Christian Galliker - AirTeamImages
 
lasham
Crew
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RE: Is Anet Now Too Hard For New Photographers?

Sun Jan 21, 2007 8:31 pm

Quoting OD720 (Reply 34):
I actually do this for local photographers who want to upload their shots to this site and will do it regarding other rare locations as well

Hi Vatche

Great to hear your helping out. We all need to help the new photographers at our local airports a bit more. I find the shots I'm seeing from India are going to be the most difficult to help as its only been ok (by law!) to photograph aircraft in the last two years. So they have no photographers with the knowledge/experiance to help out.

Tony
No sun no fun
 
LIPH
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RE: Is Anet Now Too Hard For New Photographers?

Sun Jan 21, 2007 9:03 pm

There was a discussion recently (one of the many that come up) about acceptance ratio and so on ("screeners should be divided into groups"). I pointed out my point of view regarding this issue : I just copy and paste the whole thing if you don't mind :
"I think that *basically* there is no *gain* in the change the acceptance rules. I don't know what change would you like to implement or what you have in mind, but if changing means lower rejections and easier acceptances I think A.net will not follow this way for sure : instead things will be more and more difficult with time. A.net is the biggest and most famous internet database of aviation photography and people struggle to have their photo accepted here. For this reason A.net is considered "the best" in aviation photography : because of 100 photo uploaded, just 10, or even less, will be implemented in the DB. This creates 2 things : a challenge for photographers and an increasing fame of the website itself. And an increasing fame of the website means, from one side, more and more photographers trying to upload here, from the other side an increase in the traffic of the website and more "rumors"/media coverage. An increasing traffic and more "rumors"/media coverage means that media dedicated space on the website (eg. banners) will increase in price, and at last poeple can eventually sell their photos at an increased price, "just" because they're on A.net, or at last the will be able to show their pics to a more concerned odiens. In this sense I don't feel things will change. A.net sets the standards. Imagine to have your photo accepted on an issue of National Geographic. And imagine to have the same pic accepted in your local newspaper. Now : who gives you more visibility ? The game is that easy also on A.net. Photographers look for visibility. The tougher is to get accepted the better is for A.net and the few photographers who make it...This is it. There is no real gain in lowering the rejections, being them fair or unfair. It's just up to the screeners decide "what's in" and "what's out". You could meet a low quality, uncentered shot in the DB, but if the screeners have decided it is ok, you cannot complain. You could have received what you belive is an unfair rejection but if the screeners have decided it is a bad shot they can show you tons of defects. You cannot escape this game if you want to stay on A.net."

It must be really tough for new photographers to deal with A.net strict rules, sure something to learn that could last months...

Regards
Life sucks. Then you die. Live fast, die young.
 
picturethis
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RE: Is Anet Now Too Hard For New Photographers?

Sun Jan 21, 2007 9:04 pm

Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 26):
So Paul is right, the problem for newcomers often will not be the technical quality of the photos, but the editing and the peculiarities of airliners.net rules and requirements.

I don't know. For me the editing was easier as I knew vaguely what needed to be achieved. Getting a good original photo was the difficult part. It varies as there are people who find difficulty with editing more than taking the photo when they start.
Make sure they know we're playing the game, but we don't need to play the game because we've already won the game.
 
EWS
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RE: Is Anet Now Too Hard For New Photographers?

Sun Jan 21, 2007 9:18 pm

Quoting Lasham (Thread starter):
I was easy for most of us who started a few years ago on anet but today it must be very frustrating for new young photographers.

Not just for the new photographs, also for us with many shots in the database. This is the reason many photographs, including myself have stopped uploading here. Some of the quality rejections are quite laughable, not just from my own photographs, but other photographers too.. and then appeal, and it comes back for a entirly different rejection reason.. there's just no consistancy there..

Personally i think if the rules were relaxed slightly, on the quality side.. fair play i agree with most motiv rejections, but if you dont try something new, you wont find out whats acceptable and what isnt.

Lew
 
INNflight
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RE: Is Anet Now Too Hard For New Photographers?

Sun Jan 21, 2007 9:30 pm

Good thread Tony, dialogue is the way to go.

Florian
Jet Visuals
 
viv
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RE: Is Anet Now Too Hard For New Photographers?

Sun Jan 21, 2007 9:47 pm

Quoting Dendrobatid (Reply 32):
there is very little wrong with the current standards

Except that, speaking from my own recent experience, I feel that the line between "soft" and oversharpened" has become very fine indeed. Others may disagree - it may be that my difficulty lies with my processing abilities.

Quoting Dendrobatid (Reply 32):
The standards are high but they are attainable by most people.

I agree.
Nikon D700, Nikkor 80-400, Fuji X Pro 1, Fujinon 35 f/1.4, Fujinon 18 f/2
 
glapira
Posts: 185
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RE: Is Anet Now Too Hard For New Photographers?

Sun Jan 21, 2007 9:56 pm

Hello everybody!

Quoting ChrisZRH (Reply 35):
IMO the standards should not be lowered, but the generosity to some special shots should be increased

 checkmark  - Definitely... this sentence says exactly what I think about this topic. Once we reached a level of professionalism, quality and variety, we can't lower the standards... high standards are also a way of making photographers improve their skills and try new things to get their pictures accepted.

We do have a very nice forum where we all can discuss our techniques, improve pictures and ask for advices... so new photographers should start here, in the forum: they will get the help they need to reach A.net standards with a bit of practice and a lot of patience.

I, personally, don't shot ONLY for having my picture on A.net even if I love to have them on the DB: I shot for the pleasure of having a pictures collection, nice wallpapers, some nice prints for my room and a hobby to spend time with friends and have an excuse for travelling (more than what we actually do for our real jobs). If it doesn't get accepted I will never get upset... I might not agree but I wont die because of that... LoL

I don't get tired of planes, even I live in them and I spend most of the day in an airport... it's something I can't explain: so if we are able to spend hours shooting, we are also able to spend 30 min. reading the masterclasses on the forum or posting for some help. The main problem is that, usually, people doesn't want to READ manuals but at the same time they want inmediate results... nothing is inmediate, and spotting has two learning phases: the actual use of the camera and the postprocessing learning. None of these two phases have a limit, as you will actually never stop learning new things.

Last but, definitely, not least (and here comes my admiration to some A.netters like Javier Guerrero, Ander Aguirre, Luis Rosa, just to say some) we have to be a bit permissive with some spectacular shots that NEED to be in the DB. Yes, we know A.net is a DB, and side airplane shot is nice to have a reg numbers list, but we also enjoy watching the famous "WOW" shots... as I personally want to get out of the house and go take pictures when I see them, in order to try imitating them or even getting something better (which is very, very difficult).

That's my modest oppinion... I hope I'm not the only one that thinks like that...  Smile

Giorgio
Kind Regards, Radial360
 
Psych
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RE: Is Anet Now Too Hard For New Photographers?

Sun Jan 21, 2007 10:55 pm

Very good to see a debate like this continuing.

I have a particular suggestion on this topic:

I would like to see something like a 'Help' section where all relevant issues are hosted. For example, this would include:

* Fergul's workflow, and any others that people wish to post.

* The rejection criteria definitions.

* The illustrated guide to the criteria, which is subject to on-going update and addition.

* The 'masterclass' threads all together, addressing editing techniques, and other relevant ones, such as Jeff's description of the use of layer masks.

All site users could be referred there, even if they are not Forum contributors.

The above, together with a Forum which is not populated by opportunities to get one over on others or generally belittle contributors, would make a big difference to the experience of using A.net. Particularly if they were regular contributions from crew members.

I also agree with the point that there are certain kinds of shots - maybe from particular unknown locations - but certainly of the kind which are particularly technically challenging (I think, for example, of some of Javier's panning shots that are so 'slow' that it would be almost impossible to apply 'normal' A.net quality standards; or the kind of 'artistic' shots someone like Steve Morris produces) where a more relaxed approach should be used. These are, after all, often the very shots that attract huge viewing figures, which has to be good for the site. My hunch is that the screeners do give more latitude than some suspect, but because this is not communicated clearly enough it is not well enough understood.

All the best.

Paul
 
codeshare
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RE: Is Anet Now Too Hard For New Photographers?

Mon Jan 22, 2007 1:52 am

The standards are high for a reason. Would it be fair to those who always provide high quality uploads, or those who work hard to get o good shot, or those who take their time to improve editing skills ? I think not.

Maybe there isn't a huge flood of photographers willing to upload here, but judging by the number of photos being accepted or in the queue that isn't a problem.

If anything was to be loosened it is the motiv. Some are obvious, some are discussable. And those discussable ones that comply with the quality and other requirements should be considered. Like my recent reject (no plug available appeal rejected). Quality was fine IMO, but the problem was that I had taken the photo at an air show (where aicraft are usually dispalyed in 'tight' formations) from under the wing of another aircraft - and that wing was visible. This may be distracting for some, for some not. For a database of aircraft it could be accpetable, but for a photography database - not (in terms of composition). And I believe that the above example and many others is a loss of a.net.

I agree with some above posts that rejections should be explained in more detail.

Newcomers I think have it harder unfortunately. The 'get-in' bar is set pretty high these days, than when I started uploading back in 2002. It was still the golden age of film and slides. The worst rejection was the infamous 'badscan', and getting a good scan was the key issue, before starting any edition. Now everybody's got digital cameras so in this way it is faster and easier to obtain a finer image before editing.

KS/codeshare

[Edited 2007-01-21 17:57:01]
How much A is there is Airliners Net ? 0 or nothing ?
 
D L X
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RE: Is Anet Now Too Hard For New Photographers?

Mon Jan 22, 2007 2:20 am

Quoting Viv (Reply 41):
I feel that the line between "soft" and oversharpened" has become very fine indeed.

I completely agree. It was mentioned earlier that part of the propblem may be that photos look sharper and more jagged on LCDs than they do on CRTs, and that different screeners (as well as photographers) use different technology.
 
lasham
Crew
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RE: Is Anet Now Too Hard For New Photographers?

Mon Jan 22, 2007 2:33 am

Quoting Psych (Reply 43):
My hunch is that the screeners do give more latitude than some suspect, but because this is not communicated clearly enough it is not well enough understood.

Spot on as we do use our heads when it comes to very rare shots.

Tony
No sun no fun
 
paulinbna
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RE: Is Anet Now Too Hard For New Photographers?

Mon Jan 22, 2007 6:30 am

I did not read all the replies call me lazy I guess, so forgive me if this has been covered.
I think what make a huge differance is if that the rejection reasons where chaged a little. I have 2100 pics on the databse and they confuse me a little sometimes.
Example......The dreaded quality ones, why not have reasons like this:

Quality-Oversharpen
Quality-Soft
Qualty-Blurry
Quality-Contrast

I think you can see where I am going with this, instead of just Quality you need to have a rejection reason that says why it is bad quality.
Canon 50D user; 100-400 MM L IS 10-22 MM, 60MM Macro
 
AirMalta
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RE: Is Anet Now Too Hard For New Photographers?

Mon Jan 22, 2007 6:52 am

Interesting thread Tony glad to see that one of team brought up this issue!!
it is not a bad idea that everyone helps like many photogrpahers do..after all everyone love to see his pics online!!
Well done
Malcolm
 
OD720
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RE: Is Anet Now Too Hard For New Photographers?

Mon Jan 22, 2007 7:06 pm

Dear all.

I want to go back to the idea of rare locations and new photographers. I think I would be right if I said that none of us here fit in the category of "rare locations".

Will it be possible to make a list of people (volunteers) who would be willing to help photographers from such places?
I know it's not possible for us to point the spot where the photographer should chose because we're not familiar with the geography of the airport. But it's possible to help them out with camera settings and editting workflows, such as stated by Mark and others.

I would put my name on such a list and give it a try. But how would we be able to find them? Is there a way?

I think the screener would clearly see who has the potential (deserving help) and who doesn't (waste of time). Will it be possible to send a link (URL) to the former of a list of email addresses so that they can contact for help?

I know it's a little difficult to practice and more work to screeners but does anyone else has any other ideas?

Vatche

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