ebj1248650
Posts: 1517
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 6:17 am

Submission Standards Too High?

Mon Feb 05, 2007 7:30 pm

I've been an avid subscriber to A.net for a couple of years now but had not, until recently, checked out the aviation photography forum. What surprised me is the fact that photos that probably look good to most aviation nuts like myself can be and are rejected. While I can appreciate a desire for high quality photos when they're available, I have to wonder if the submission standards are perhaps a little too high for some, discouraging enthusiastic airplane photographers from making any submissions at all. This site is, after all, for airplane nuts in general. Do you have to be a near professional photographer to submit photos and have them accepted?
Dare to dream; dream big!
 
viv
Posts: 2953
Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 5:17 pm

RE: Submission Standards Too High?

Mon Feb 05, 2007 7:34 pm

In my opinion, the acceptance standards, although high, are acceptable and within reach of any good amateur photographer. It is not that hard to get shots accepted here.

The only thing I would question is the ever-narrowing line between "soft" and "oversharpened".

[Edited 2007-02-05 11:39:04]
Nikon D700, Nikkor 80-400, Fuji X Pro 1, Fujinon 35 f/1.4, Fujinon 18 f/2
 
LIPH
Posts: 841
Joined: Mon May 17, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: Submission Standards Too High?

Mon Feb 05, 2007 7:41 pm

Quoting EBJ1248650 (Thread starter):
Do you have to be a near professional photographer to submit photos and have them accepted?

I wouldn't say that. I think very few of us are "professional" photog. If for "professional" photog you mean someone being paid for taking aircraft pics.
What I would consider maybe is the increasing number of pics that can be taken only by people working in the aviation field, most of the times in restricted areas : pilots, mechanics etc. So maybe with time, shooting interesting pics will be much more difficult. But this is another story....

Ciao
Life sucks. Then you die. Live fast, die young.
 
EZEIZA
Posts: 4421
Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2004 12:09 am

RE: Submission Standards Too High?

Mon Feb 05, 2007 8:34 pm

Quoting Viv (Reply 1):
It is not that hard to get shots accepted here.

I can't say I agree with this. I think that without the proper gear it is very hard to get pictures accepted. I'm not saying this is wrong or that I would change things, but it is hard to get pictures accepted. The real problem really is that it gets harder and harder each day, and if the standards keep up rising, there will be a point where only pros will have a chance. I hope I'm wrong though  Wink

regards  Smile
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
viv
Posts: 2953
Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 5:17 pm

RE: Submission Standards Too High?

Mon Feb 05, 2007 8:47 pm

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 3):
there will be a point where only pros will have a chance

We are a long way from that.

It's not rocket science, just photography. It's not that hard.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 3):
without the proper gear it is very hard to get pictures accepted

A point-and-shoot camera is good enough for acceptable shots of parked aircraft in good light. For aircraft in flight, a basic DSLR (entry-level Nikon or Canon) with a decent zoom lens is good enough.

Great gear does not make great photographers. Otherwise, everyone who could afford a Hasselblad with a digital back would be a great photographer.
Nikon D700, Nikkor 80-400, Fuji X Pro 1, Fujinon 35 f/1.4, Fujinon 18 f/2
 
LIPH
Posts: 841
Joined: Mon May 17, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: Submission Standards Too High?

Mon Feb 05, 2007 8:53 pm

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 3):
there will be a point where only pros will have a chance. I hope I'm wrong though

I hope you're wrong too, but personally cannot understand the real meaning of the term "professional". Professional can mean a lot of things : I've seen woderful, high definition shots, made with a 300D, which actually is not a top level camera. Nor I think that real professional photogs agrees with all A.net rules in terms of acceptance...
In my opinion it is not about the devices, it's about knowledge (know your camera, know the post-processing workflow, know A.net rules), patience, creativity, and more and more will be about chances : not all of us have a gate access or the chance to shoot a 747 flying below, from the cockpit of a plane. So with time, I believe that all the shots we make will become to be a bit boring I think. A new step will be needed in terms of motive and subject, and only a few will really succeed in shooting top-rated pics.
Just my  twocents 

Ciao
Life sucks. Then you die. Live fast, die young.
 
viv
Posts: 2953
Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 5:17 pm

RE: Submission Standards Too High?

Mon Feb 05, 2007 9:06 pm

Quoting LIPH (Reply 5):
it is not about the devices, it's about knowledge (know your camera, know the post-processing workflow, know A.net rules), patience, creativity, and more and more will be about chances

Absolutely right!
Nikon D700, Nikkor 80-400, Fuji X Pro 1, Fujinon 35 f/1.4, Fujinon 18 f/2
 
User avatar
JeffM
Posts: 7569
Joined: Sat May 07, 2005 3:32 am

RE: Submission Standards Too High?

Mon Feb 05, 2007 9:33 pm

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 3):
but it is hard to get pictures accepted. The real problem really is that it gets harder and harder each day, and if the standards keep up rising, there will be a point where only pros will have a chance. I hope I'm wrong though

...that's BS. It doesn't get harder everyday, and if you have even the slightest clue of what you are doing behind the lens and can follow some simple guidelines you can get pictures accepted.  Yeah sure
 
Rotate
Posts: 1448
Joined: Tue Feb 11, 2003 5:52 pm

RE: Submission Standards Too High?

Mon Feb 05, 2007 9:43 pm

Quoting EBJ1248650 (Thread starter):
Submission Standards Too High?

No.

Robin
ABC
 
f4wso
Posts: 942
Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2003 1:58 pm

RE: Submission Standards Too High?

Mon Feb 05, 2007 11:07 pm

I think the standards are a combination of the hobby standard and the available technology. Airline slides have always been held to high standards. As better scanning technology, more megapixels, and post processing continues to increase, the digital aviation photography will approach the standards for airline slide photography.

The traditional airline slide was a full frame side view in good sunlight with the registration visible on Kodachrome film. Anet has expanded to many more artistic images of contrails, sunrise/sunset, and scenic views-much more than a visual registration database. It is one of the few human endeavors I have seen that is constantly looking for ways to improve. It is not a rapid transformation but it is surefooted with input sought through the forums.

The site does offer at least three ways for photographers to achieve acceptable quality, this forum, the FAQ, and photographer contact on each of the images.

Gary
Cottage Grove, MN, USA
Seeking an honest week's pay for an honest day's work
 
9V
Posts: 1368
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2008 10:35 am

RE: Submission Standards Too High?

Mon Feb 05, 2007 11:16 pm

Quoting Viv (Reply 1):
although high, are acceptable and within reach of any good amateur photographer

 checkmark 


My first ever pic on the homepage today!  bigthumbsup 


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Ian Meadows



 praise   praise 
 
LIPH
Posts: 841
Joined: Mon May 17, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: Submission Standards Too High?

Mon Feb 05, 2007 11:22 pm

Well made Ian,
come here in Italy and I'll offer you a glass of Prosecco...!!  Wink

Ciao
Life sucks. Then you die. Live fast, die young.
 
viv
Posts: 2953
Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 5:17 pm

RE: Submission Standards Too High?

Tue Feb 06, 2007 12:38 am

Quoting F4wso (Reply 9):
It is one of the few human endeavors I have seen that is constantly looking for ways to improve.

Oh please. You must be joking!
Nikon D700, Nikkor 80-400, Fuji X Pro 1, Fujinon 35 f/1.4, Fujinon 18 f/2
 
AirMalta
Posts: 400
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 7:02 pm

RE: Submission Standards Too High?

Tue Feb 06, 2007 12:44 am

Quoting Rotate (Reply 8):
Quoting EBJ1248650 (Thread starter):
Submission Standards Too High?



Quoting Rotate (Reply 8):
No.

why no?

Malcolm
 
Rotate
Posts: 1448
Joined: Tue Feb 11, 2003 5:52 pm

RE: Submission Standards Too High?

Tue Feb 06, 2007 1:04 am

Quoting AirMalta (Reply 13):
Quoting Rotate (Reply 8):
Quoting EBJ1248650 (Thread starter):
Submission Standards Too High?



Quoting Rotate (Reply 8):
No.

why no?

Cause every day hundreds of pics enter the DB, so the bar is not too high. Even Newcomers enter the DB. Also I rather like to see topnotch quality pics than soso quality pics.
If you follow all the hints given in here about after workflows it is possibel. The problem is that a lot of people try to get pics into the DB, where they did something wrong while taking the shot. Also people think if the have top notch cams this guarantes to enter the DB - which is just plain wrong. You should know a bit about taking photos ...

Robin
ABC
 
linco22
Posts: 1279
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 6:16 am

RE: Submission Standards Too High?

Tue Feb 06, 2007 1:05 am

This is always going to be a topic raised on this forum. Its a simple answer. This is an avaition database. The photographes submitted must be of a high standard, identified by the folks who run the site. If you work towards those quidelines you're on the right track. The best gear isn't needed. The best weather isn't always required (Believe me, I'm from Ireland) but what you need to do is develop your photography skills. With more experience you'll understand why this site has standards.

Regards
Colin
 
EZEIZA
Posts: 4421
Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2004 12:09 am

RE: Submission Standards Too High?

Tue Feb 06, 2007 1:18 am

Quoting Viv (Reply 4):
A point-and-shoot camera is good enough for acceptable shots of parked aircraft in good light

True, but then you have to make sure there are not too many pics of that aircraft, and other things. Let's say that with the same skill level, a better camera gives you more chances.

Quoting JeffM (Reply 7):
.that's BS. It doesn't get harder everyday, and if you have even the slightest clue of what you are doing behind the lens and can follow some simple guidelines you can get pictures accepted.

No, it's not BS. At worst, it is my opinion.
It does get harder every day because the standards rise. Check out some accepted pictures from a few years ago and you know they don't stand a chance today. Maybe "harder" is not the right word, possibly "challenging" would be better?
IMO its not that simple. Following the guidelines does not assure acceptance.

I'm not criticizing the way the site works at all, I'm just saying its not that easy as some of you say it is. And I'm fine with it, as long as it does not become impossible.

regards  Smile
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
CalgaryBill
Posts: 618
Joined: Thu May 04, 2006 12:27 am

RE: Submission Standards Too High?

Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:22 am

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 16):
True, but then you have to make sure there are not too many pics of that aircraft, and other things. Let's say that with the same skill level, a better camera gives you more chances.

Totally disagree - I would say the more skill you have, the better your photo's will be. I know lots of people with expensive gear who can't take a decent picture. Not everyone has the money for expensive equipment, but anyone regardless of gear or money can practice and improve their skills.

To answer the original question, no, the standards are not too high here. There are tons of free websites out there that will take any old aviation photo. If someone can't get a shot on A.net there are still lots of places to post a photo.

B
 
User avatar
walter2222
Posts: 1237
Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2005 3:40 am

RE: Submission Standards Too High?

Tue Feb 06, 2007 4:24 am

Quoting CalgaryBill (Reply 17):
To answer the original question, no, the standards are not too high here. There are tons of free websites out there that will take any old aviation photo. If someone can't get a shot on A.net there are still lots of places to post a photo.

 checkmark   checkmark 

And most people forget that the original hobby is "shooting pictures"... It is nice, of course, to present and share the end result(s) onto this site, but nothing can beat the moments in open air, rain, cold, sun, with the magic sound of jet noise, and the smell...  Smile ... and being amongst other aviation nuts!

Best regards,

Walter
Canon 347d mkII ;-) - EFS10-22mm f/3.5-4.5 USM - EFS18-55mm - EF28-105mm f3.5/4.5 - EF100-400mm f4.5-5.6l IS USM - ...
 
JakTrax
Posts: 4654
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2005 3:30 am

RE: Submission Standards Too High?

Tue Feb 06, 2007 5:24 am

Quoting EBJ1248650 (Thread starter):
Do you have to be a near professional photographer to submit photos and have them accepted?

No. You have to be good at editing. A friend of mine, who I taught from scratch, has quite a good acceptance rate here. He's still really only a beginner in photography but doesn't seem to struggle getting his pics in the database...

Quoting JeffM (Reply 7):
if you have even the slightest clue of what you are doing behind the lens

...Which is why I don't agree with this statement. Knowing what to do with the camera is one thing, but I believe almost ALL shots here are edited in some way. As for me, my editing skills are about as good as a camel's security in a snowstorm! For me, the art is in the actual capture, not in the post-shot editing. See how hard it is to perfectly centre a landing airliner, fill the frame with it and get the colour/contrast exactly right without Photoshop to bail you out. It's more difficult than you think! This ISN'T knocking anyone who likes to edit extensively by the way - each to their own.

It goes back to a thread a few months back about beginners and veterans, digital and slide photographers, etc. I'm sure most of you will remember it (very entertaining and highly heated thread!). There was an argument about novice photographers taking mediocre shots, editing them to hell and coming up with decent images. There were also arguments between fans of digital and the old generation of slide shooters. Anyone interested should try a search for it - I think it was titled "The new professional photographers" or something along those lines.

Cheers,

Karl
 
ake0404ar
Posts: 2379
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 10:55 am

RE: Submission Standards Too High?

Tue Feb 06, 2007 6:00 am

If a.net does not accept your pictures....oh well! A picture slightly out of focus, grainy is not a bad picture, it just does not have its place on a.net

On the other hand, shots who will never make it to a.net could possibly grace the cover of magazines around the world.

Art Directors, Senior Editors etc.....will love the shot, for a.net it is too far in the distance, NOA motiv, grainy or whatever!

Look at Mark Garfinkels work. He is a pro, he has an eye, he might not be the ultimate PS guru (sorry for that Mark) but most of this pictures are absolutey awesome. He struggels to get stuff on here too.

I am in that boat too, I have had my fair share of rejections and my acceptance ratio is not the best. From time to time a shot gets thru.

Vasco G.
 
ake0404ar
Posts: 2379
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 10:55 am

RE: Submission Standards Too High?

Tue Feb 06, 2007 6:03 am

One thing I might add.

I have been around since 1999. Sure standards have risen and this is good. Just imagine a.net would still accept some stuff they have accepted back in the old days.

If you wanna play in the majors, you have to be better than others.

Standards high???? Who is setting that standard!

Us, all the contributing photographers........

Vasco G.
 
LIPH
Posts: 841
Joined: Mon May 17, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: Submission Standards Too High?

Tue Feb 06, 2007 6:13 am

Let me add also another issue to this discussion : one point is to add into A.net database some of your aircraft pics. Another story is to add to A.net great shots. There is a loooot of difference between these two things. And believe me, there's no need to go to SXM to shoot a top of the day. It's all in your brain. Think first, then shoot.

Ciao

[Edited 2007-02-05 22:14:12]
Life sucks. Then you die. Live fast, die young.
 
CalgaryBill
Posts: 618
Joined: Thu May 04, 2006 12:27 am

RE: Submission Standards Too High?

Tue Feb 06, 2007 6:30 am

Quoting JakTrax (Reply 19):
No. You have to be good at editing.

Sounds like the "chicken or the egg" dilemma! But I disagree - if you can't capture a decent image then you don't need any editing skills. Capture a good image and you should need nothing other than a quick sharpen and resize. If someone consistently has to do more editing than that, then they should work on their photography skills so they can spend time shooting instead of sitting in front of the computer.

B
 
EZEIZA
Posts: 4421
Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2004 12:09 am

RE: Submission Standards Too High?

Tue Feb 06, 2007 6:35 am

Quoting CalgaryBill (Reply 17):
but anyone regardless of gear or money can practice and improve their skills.

...but there is a limit with the use of those skills. If your camera is crap there is so much you can do with it. And it does not end there, you also need a good monitor  Wink

Quoting CalgaryBill (Reply 17):
There are tons of free websites out there that will take any old aviation photo. If someone can't get a shot on A.net there are still lots of places to post a photo.

Agree 100%, that's why IMO although I think the standrads are high, it should be kept this way.

Quoting JakTrax (Reply 19):
A friend of mine, who I taught from scratch, has quite a good acceptance rate here.

I could use your help too  Wink
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
viv
Posts: 2953
Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 5:17 pm

RE: Submission Standards Too High?

Tue Feb 06, 2007 6:38 am

Quoting JakTrax (Reply 19):
You have to be good at editing



Quoting JakTrax (Reply 19):
the art is in the actual capture, not in the post-shot editing

Make up your mind .....
Nikon D700, Nikkor 80-400, Fuji X Pro 1, Fujinon 35 f/1.4, Fujinon 18 f/2
 
JakTrax
Posts: 4654
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2005 3:30 am

RE: Submission Standards Too High?

Tue Feb 06, 2007 7:26 am

Quoting CalgaryBill (Reply 23):
If someone consistently has to do more editing than that, then they should work on their photography skills so they can spend time shooting instead of sitting in front of the computer.

Agree 101%!

Quoting Viv (Reply 25):
Quoting JakTrax (Reply 19):
You have to be good at editing



Quoting JakTrax (Reply 19):
the art is in the actual capture, not in the post-shot editing

Make up your mind .....

Sorry if it sounded like a contradiction. In my opinion, getting shots on here is 30% actual capture skill, 70% what you do to it afterwards - hence why I said you need to be good at editing. Unfortunately for me, I'm useless at editing, but I do feel that the art is composing the picture using the camera and a keen eye, not the ability to totally enhance and transform the picture on a computer. I accept that this is now part and parcel of digital photography but for ex-slide-shooters like me it's hard to adapt sometimes. It's difficult to look at editing without thinking it's sort of cheating slightly, if you know where I'm coming from. The comment about the need to be a competent photographer before you need to be a competent editor is entirely true, though.

Cheers,

Karl
 
JakTrax
Posts: 4654
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2005 3:30 am

RE: Submission Standards Too High?

Tue Feb 06, 2007 7:29 am

Does make me think though, are many of us spending too much time sitting at our computers and too little time actually getting out there and shooting? Is editing simply to get our pics on the 'Net turning into an obsession for some? The fun for me is going to the airport and enjoying capturing these wonderful machines, not racing home to edit them in order to get maximum 'hits'.
 
linco22
Posts: 1279
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 6:16 am

RE: Submission Standards Too High?

Tue Feb 06, 2007 7:35 am

Quoting JakTrax (Reply 27):
racing home to edit them in order to get maximum 'hits'

Alot of people get their kicks out of that. For me, with aviation being something i've always loved, I do get excited knowing I have some keepers from the day and look forward to looking at them, or printing or whatever. But it shouldn't be the sole reason you do it. Not in my eyes anyway.

Personally I need to spend more time behind the viewfinder. Its finding time is the problem........

Regards
Colin
 
User avatar
JeffM
Posts: 7569
Joined: Sat May 07, 2005 3:32 am

RE: Submission Standards Too High?

Tue Feb 06, 2007 1:57 pm

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 16):
its not that easy as some of you say it is

 rotfl .....if you say so......

Personally, it sounds like you've had a run of rejections??????????
 
EZEIZA
Posts: 4421
Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2004 12:09 am

RE: Submission Standards Too High?

Tue Feb 06, 2007 2:37 pm

Quoting JeffM (Reply 29):
Personally, it sounds like you've had a run of rejections??????????

hell yes! 

but as i said, I think the standards should be high, It'll only make me improve, I never argued that (although I would like the quality rejections to be more specific to see better where the flaws are). The only thing I'm saying is that it aint easy!

[Edited 2007-02-06 06:39:30]
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
javibi
Posts: 1295
Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2004 5:55 pm

RE: Submission Standards Too High?

Tue Feb 06, 2007 6:19 pm

Although it is a struggle for me to get a photo accepted here, judging by some examples I see in this DB I must agree with those who think it is not that difficult.

For example:
http://www.airliners.net/search/phot...y&engine_version=&nr_pages=2&page=

 bitelip 

j
 
IL76
Posts: 2237
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 5:43 am

RE: Submission Standards Too High?

Tue Feb 06, 2007 6:30 pm

J,

I can give you a few more examples, but as crew I'm not allowed.  Wink

E
 
AirMalta
Posts: 400
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 7:02 pm

RE: Submission Standards Too High?

Tue Feb 06, 2007 6:48 pm

Quoting IL76 (Reply 32):
I can give you a few more examples, but as crew I'm not allowed.

 tongue 

MALC  Wink
 
codeshare
Posts: 1689
Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2002 2:23 am

RE: Submission Standards Too High?

Tue Feb 06, 2007 8:11 pm

The standars are fine (maybe just too high at times). Some things will slip through. Either upload here, or go elswhere  Wink

KS/codeshare
How much A is there is Airliners Net ? 0 or nothing ?
 
ake0404ar
Posts: 2379
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 10:55 am

RE: Submission Standards Too High?

Wed Feb 07, 2007 5:25 am

Quoting Javibi (Reply 31):
Although it is a struggle for me to get a photo accepted here, judging by some examples I see in this DB I must agree with those who think it is not that difficult.

For example:
http://www.airliners.net/search/phot...y&engine_version=&nr_pages=2&page=

J,
This is a good one. Thanks for sharing. You made my day!!!!!
Vasco
 
ebj1248650
Posts: 1517
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 6:17 am

RE: Submission Standards Too High?

Wed Feb 07, 2007 9:32 am

Quoting Walter2222 (Reply 18):
And most people forget that the original hobby is "shooting pictures"... It is nice, of course, to present and share the end result(s) onto this site, but nothing can beat the moments in open air, rain, cold, sun, with the magic sound of jet noise, and the smell... ... and being amongst other aviation nuts!

Best regards,

Walter

Kind of "an airplane nut loves most any airplane picture, but an aviation photographer --- beginner or professional --- loves the pictures best that reflect the photography art." I think I get the picture. A.net appears to demand high standards to encourage photographers to reach for higher standards for themselves. We all gain this way, photographer and airplane nut alike. Thanks folks for your inputs. Going to find a good DSLR and try to get some pictures accepted here as well. I have some experience with 35mm SLR but never have used a DSLR. Wish me luck.
Dare to dream; dream big!
 
andyhunt
Crew
Posts: 1226
Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2001 10:50 pm

RE: Submission Standards Too High?

Wed Feb 07, 2007 8:56 pm

Much like a company cannot set a price for a product or service, as it is determined by the market......market forces, standards at a.net are also somewhat determined by market forces.....and that isn't the screeners, that is the contributing photographers. As you guys submit better and better quality pics, the bar surely rises along with that. And so it should.

But as already mentioned, 100s of pics get added every day, so it isn't really that difficult!

Regards

Andrew
Full frame always beats post processing

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests