LIPH
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Triple Rejection

Wed Mar 21, 2007 3:22 am

Ok this is it. Just help me to understand :

- On 28/2 I've been rjected the following pic :

http://www.airliners.net/addphotos/r...ia_posizionandosi_a_barcellona.jpg

Reson for rejection : contrast and center

- I then re-edited the pic and corrected the centre and contrast. My shot was rejected another time on 5/3 :

http://www.airliners.net/addphotos/r...ia_posizionandosi_a_barcellona.jpg

Reason for rejection : motiv

- So I posted on the aviation photography forum receiving some good advices. Ok, the motiv rej was due to the cut engine. I re-edited the pic and tried another upload. Today the shot was rejected again :

http://www.airliners.net/addphotos/r...posizionandosi_a_barcellona_ok.jpg

Reason for rejection : motiv. I guess this time it's for the cut tail, and I must agree (even if the database is full of cut engines, tails, stabs and so on...an example ? http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1189892/M/. And this shot is damn close to the second rjected of mine). I just wonder : wouldn't have been much faster for all of us to know this from the beginning ? I just appealed it. Would love to hear your opinions.

Ciao
Life sucks. Then you die. Live fast, die young.
 
mikephotos
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RE: Triple Rejection

Wed Mar 21, 2007 3:41 am

Giovanni,

The motiv issue for me would be the cut (blocked) gears.

Michael
 
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jid
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RE: Triple Rejection

Wed Mar 21, 2007 4:15 am

If you read your original post....

Quote:

Quoting Rotate (Reply 4):
I dont like the cutoff wheels .....

= motive rejection

Cut off logo on the tail also = motive rejection.

Jid

You would of saved yourself the effort and rejections against your id.

Jid
G7EPN is back after 15 years! Operating all Bands 80mtrs -> 70cms QRZ DX
 
dendrobatid
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RE: Triple Rejection

Wed Mar 21, 2007 4:29 am

LIPH

I think that you are making a common mistake - ignoring the fact that the aircraft does not stop at the fuselage, the fin is a part of it too. Simply tipping the camera up a little and you could have put the nosewheel near the bottom of the frame and the complete fin may well have been included. It is a pet dislike of mine, a poor composition (poor motive). Don't study your image, just glance at it and the instant impression is that it is too high. The crop of the logo on the fin is really distracting.
And so to the example to which you refer.......
I do not actually like the crop of the engine on the right but it looks unavoidable given the tight crop. However, look at the position of the nosewheel compared to yours, near the bootom and towards the corner. I actually looked at that image after I had written the first bit. Does it make my point ?
Mick Bajcar
 
locsta
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RE: Triple Rejection

Wed Mar 21, 2007 4:55 am

i would only ask the question why the 1st reject didn't include MOTIV? That happened to me recently with a shot that I bothered to fix a second time only to THEN rec'v a motive rejection....
Shouldn't MOTIV trump other rejection reasons as to not waste everyone's time in new edits and submissions of shots with MOTIV issues from the beginning.
If I see a MOTIV rejection on a shot that has something like the tail cut off, and the original also has the tail cut off, I wouldn't bother trying to fix it, but if you don't get the MOTIV the 1st time you might be led to think that it was acceptable motive and just need the other things fixed to make it passable.

Cheers,

Kevin
Missed 4 chasing 1
 
Rotate
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RE: Triple Rejection

Wed Mar 21, 2007 5:01 am

OMG!  banghead 

I really dont get why you try to get this certain shot into the DB ....

All Rejections reason have been valid ...

I said allready : The gear does kill it ......



We allready discussed that pic sometime ago .....

Rather Concentrate on others .... than trying to get this one in. It only brings you ratio done - its not that special.

RGds

Robin
ABC
 
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clickhappy
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RE: Triple Rejection

Wed Mar 21, 2007 5:11 am

Shouldn't MOTIV trump other rejection reasons as to not waste everyone's time in new edits and submissions of shots with MOTIV issues from the beginning.
If I see a MOTIV rejection on a shot that has something like the tail cut off, and the original also has the tail cut off, I wouldn't bother trying to fix it, but if you don't get the MOTIV the 1st time you might be led to think that it was acceptable motive and just need the other things fixed to make it passable.

All valid points, and yes motiv should be checked, but I actually HQ'd the image, I liked the crop *shrug*
 
jajo
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RE: Triple Rejection

Wed Mar 21, 2007 5:43 am

Quoting Dendrobatid (Reply 3):
Simply tipping the camera up a little and you could have put the nosewheel near the bottom of the frame and the complete fin may well have been included

I had the same problem with one of my shots. It was rejected for center, and it was a true eye-opener. It looks very strange to leave lots of empty asphalt in the bottom of the picture, and the fin cut off...

LIPH,

Thanks for reducing the visibility of the watermark on the last one. In the first two shots, the watermark is probably one of the more annoying I have ever seen.

/ Jacob
 
G-CIVP
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RE: Triple Rejection

Wed Mar 21, 2007 5:47 am

Mick - I can't stand cut off gear either! However, if 'motiv' actually stated 'poor composition' then I think this would be easier to understand as 'motiv' may not be specific enough.
 
diezel
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RE: Triple Rejection

Wed Mar 21, 2007 6:03 am

You might try a different, more "dramatic" crop which takes the attention away from the cut off parts. This picture might just be suitable for a crop like this, allthough I don't think the quality is really there. Well, anyway, I just quickly cropped the picture to give you an idea of what I mean...  Smile

Big version: Width: 581 Height: 387 File size: 107kb
different crop


Roel.
Never be afraid of what you like. (Miles Davis)
 
Rotate
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RE: Triple Rejection

Wed Mar 21, 2007 6:24 am

Quoting Diezel (Reply 9):
You might try a different, more "dramatic" crop which takes the attention away from the cut off parts.

And get the 4th Rejection cause of Motive ....  cool   cool 

LIPH - Forget this IB Shot .....  tired 

Robin
ABC
 
dendrobatid
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RE: Triple Rejection

Wed Mar 21, 2007 6:26 am

Quoting Jajo (Reply 7):
It looks very strange to leave lots of empty asphalt in the bottom of the picture, and the fin cut off...

Jacob....I totally agree.

Motive is very subjective and here is a perfect example. Royal would have accepted, I have not seen this during screening but would have rejected it if I had. Neither of us are wrong but we have a different opinion and as it was rejected other screeners clearly agreed with me, though perhaps others agreed with Royal too. The process is actually a pretty democratic process but on balance it was rejected. Some may scream 'inconsistency' but it is not in my eyes, a human foible, failing, it may well be though ! Generally motive does trump all others yet it is still frequently ignored by people re-uploading. Some motive rejections can be corrected, missing little bits for instance but in most cases they cannot.
Centreing and motive can at times be subjective too and in all of LIPH's examples both fit the rejection.
Mick Bajcar
 
LIPH
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RE: Triple Rejection

Wed Mar 21, 2007 7:09 am

Ok guys,
thanks, some of your advices make sense. I'd have some points to discuss though... :

Quoting Mikephotos (Reply 1):
The motiv issue for me would be the cut (blocked) gears.

Ok Michael, this one of the blocked gears sounds new to me (never happened to deal with it before). I thought that the motive rejection of the second upload could be rather for the cut engine, than for the gears. After all a cut engine sounds more bad than a couple of cut tires. Anyway, this thing of the cut gears it's not that clear to me, sorry. A shot of mine, taken from the same position was added in the db without any motive rejection :

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1187061/L/

Probably the gears were not "that cut", as in my IB shot, but were nonetheless cut. Could you explain to me the difference ?

Quoting Jid (Reply 2):
You would of saved yourself the effort and rejections against your id.

You're right.  checkmark 

Quoting Dendrobatid (Reply 3):
gnoring the fact that the aircraft does not stop at the fuselage, the fin is a part of it too

Mick you're right. A plane does not stop to the fuselaghe. But how many fuselage closeup, nose closeup, gears closeup, tail closeup can you count in the entire DB? My intention was to make exactly a closeup of the fuselage, and cannot understand what's wrong with it : there are tons of fuselage closeup in the db, and a closeup of the fuselage necessarly means to cut off some other pats of the aircraft, isn't it ? Now what's wrong (gears apart) with my way of cropping the pic for a fuselage closeup ? I would be grateful to learn something new here, really. I'm not in the mood to complain here (I have damn cold and headache... Wink). I just want to understand how to crop fuselage closeups...

Quoting Rotate (Reply 5):

I really dont get why you try to get this certain shot into the DB ....

All Rejections reason have been valid ...

I said allready : The gear does kill it ......

Yes, Robin I should follow your advice...That shot has really nothing special...There is not a specific reason why I want it into the db, but nonetheless believe that it has all the credits to...(gears apart). I just lov fuselage closeups...and would like to understand the "perfect crop" for them.

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 6):
If I see a MOTIV rejection on a shot that has something like the tail cut off, and the original also has the tail cut off, I wouldn't bother trying to fix it, but if you don't get the MOTIV the 1st time you might be led to think that it was acceptable motive and just need the other things fixed to make it passable.

I would agree if the database wasn't full of cut tails, stabs, angines and so on in order to make the fuselage being the center of the pic. As I told my intention was to make a fuselage closeup. Nothing more, nothing less...If there's something wrong in my crop (gears apart) I'd love to understand it....

Quoting Diezel (Reply 9):
You might try a different, more "dramatic" crop

Yes Roel, that would be nice, but at this point I do not understand which parts are "eligible" to cut and which are not in these type of closeups....Anyway that crop would suffers from quality and the famous cut gears as well...

Any other input/suggestion on fuselage closeups is greatly appreciated...

Ciao
Life sucks. Then you die. Live fast, die young.
 
mikephotos
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RE: Triple Rejection

Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:00 am

Quoting LIPH (Reply 12):
Ok Michael, this one of the blocked gears sounds new to me (never happened to deal with it before). I thought that the motive rejection of the second upload could be rather for the cut engine, than for the gears. After all a cut engine sounds more bad than a couple of cut tires. Anyway, this thing of the cut gears it's not that clear to me, sorry. A shot of mine, taken from the same position was added in the db without any motive rejection :

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1187061/L/

Probably the gears were not "that cut", as in my IB shot, but were nonetheless cut. Could you explain to me the difference ?

I'm old-school, cut from the slide-shooters mold and any shot with gears not fully visible (possibily with exceptions) kills the shot. Just image the exact same shot with fully visible gears and compare the two, it's difficult to explain. Motiv is very subjective and will always be.

Mike
 
LIPH
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RE: Triple Rejection

Wed Mar 21, 2007 3:46 pm

Quoting Mikephotos (Reply 13):

I'm old-school, cut from the slide-shooters mold and any shot with gears not fully visible (possibily with exceptions) kills the shot

Ok Mike, I'll keep this in mind when will post other shots, but still remain unclear to me why the crop of my fuselage closeup is not good. Really, browsing the db you can find tons of fuselage closeups with cut engines, tails, stabs and so on. Is there a specific way to crop these shots ? What was wrong with mine ? Thanks in advance for input.

Ciao
Life sucks. Then you die. Live fast, die young.
 
unattendedbag
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RE: Triple Rejection

Wed Mar 21, 2007 5:24 pm

Quoting LIPH (Reply 14):
Ok Mike, I'll keep this in mind when will post other shots, but still remain unclear to me why the crop of my fuselage closeup is not good. Really, browsing the db you can find tons of fuselage closeups with cut engines, tails, stabs and so on. Is there a specific way to crop these shots ? What was wrong with mine ?

1 - It depends on how quickly the observer notices the discrepancy. For example, on the first edit, I noticed the cut nose gear first. I think if the "cut" part is noticed quickly, it stands a good chance of being rejected. Another person might not have seen the nose gear immediately.

2 - It depends on to what degree the part is cut. Half an engine almost never looks good. It makes the photo look unfinished or seems as though you weren’t paying attention to what you were doing/didn't care. In the photo you linked to originally, it is obvious that the photographer was cropping the plane close to the nose. I can understand his motive and yours in the second upload, but the gear is still cut in half.

3 - It depends on the screener.

(if I were you, I would chalk that photo of the AeBal (Spanair Link) 717 as getting one "past" the screeners and look at your Iberia shot as a valid rejection)
Slower traffic, keep right
 
unattendedbag
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RE: Triple Rejection

Wed Mar 21, 2007 5:53 pm

I can think of 2 types of motive rejection off the top of my head.

1 - Motive rejection where an unavoidable entity is obstructing the aircraft, such is the case with your photo. A bump in the pavement cuts off part of the nose gear, an airstairs distracts from/obscures part of an aircraft...

Some parts of an aircraft may be cut out to accomplish a certain goal such as a tight crop of the nose. This can be acceptable as long as the crop is done smartly.

2 - Motive rejection where it's not exactly certain what the photographer was trying to accomplish with the photo. A photo where the viewer isn't quite certain what he/she it looking at.

any others?
Slower traffic, keep right
 
LIPH
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RE: Triple Rejection

Thu Mar 22, 2007 2:50 am

Ok, from all this I can have learned how not to cut gears. But I still have not received any answer to my question about how to make a good crop. Hey :


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Simon Blakesley



Marvellous shot, surely much more interesting than mine, artistically speaking, but nonetheless part of the right wing is cut, part of the stab is cut. Couldn't the photographer try to find a better position to shoot ? There is no reason for such a crop. One could argue that the photographer tried to balance the shot with the lightened mountain in th etop left corner. Ok I say : couldn't he move back a bit in order to include the lightened mountain and also the entire wing and stab ?


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Ian Schofield



Gear blocked and tail cut


View Large View Medium
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Photo © Markus Mosshammer



Fuselage not centered and tail cut (with titles cut)


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Tony Marlow [Airplane-Pictures]



Tail cut


View Large View Medium
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Photo © Knut Raddatz



Tail cut


View Large View Medium
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Photo © Ian Schofield



Tail cut.

Now I would love to hear your opinions....

Ciao
Life sucks. Then you die. Live fast, die young.
 
747438
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RE: Triple Rejection

Thu Mar 22, 2007 3:04 am

Quoting LIPH (Reply 17):
Now I would love to hear your opinions....

My opinion is that it's not on to criticise the work of others, although I'm sure some will be grateful for the extra hits you have given them.
 
manc
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RE: Triple Rejection

Thu Mar 22, 2007 3:08 am

Yeah thanks for the hits!
No URL in signature please
 
LIPH
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RE: Triple Rejection

Thu Mar 22, 2007 3:13 am

Quoting 747438 (Reply 18):

Useful post. Anything better ?

Ciao
Life sucks. Then you die. Live fast, die young.
 
LIPH
Topic Author
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RE: Triple Rejection

Thu Mar 22, 2007 3:15 am

Quoting Manc (Reply 19):
Yeah thanks for the hits!

Save a beer for me during my next trip to England...  rotfl 

Ciao
Life sucks. Then you die. Live fast, die young.
 
747438
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RE: Triple Rejection

Thu Mar 22, 2007 3:17 am

Quoting LIPH (Reply 20):
Quoting 747438 (Reply 18):


Useful post. Anything better ?

Yeah, I have actually !
Rather than criticise the work of others and the screening team, why not take a close look at your photos and compare them to the examples you give?
Ask youself how you can learn from them, stop whining like a jealous youngster and go out and shoot some thing different.
 
LIPH
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RE: Triple Rejection

Thu Mar 22, 2007 3:25 am

Quoting 747438 (Reply 22):
Yeah, I have actually !

You could spare some time and post it first, kiddo...

Quoting 747438 (Reply 22):
Ask youself how you can learn from them, stop whining like a jealous youngster and go out and shoot some thing different.

This is exactly what I'm trying to do. I learn from others as all people do. If I see something which is not clear to me I try to understand it. And I need some examples to compare my shot with. So difficult to understand ? See ? It's that simple.
Note : you wrote 2 posts and no advice/suggestion/input/clue at all. That's exactly the kind of post I hate.

Ciao
Life sucks. Then you die. Live fast, die young.
 
747438
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RE: Triple Rejection

Thu Mar 22, 2007 3:33 am

Quoting LIPH (Reply 23):
That's exactly the kind of post I hate.

That's fine, I haven't a problem with you disliking that type of post.
It gets my goat when the work of others is criticised by others bemoaning the fact that their photo has been rejected.
I'm pleased to read that you try to learn from others (as we all do).
Why do you need to show those photos in such a way?

Quoting LIPH (Reply 17):
Gear blocked and tail cut



Quoting LIPH (Reply 17):
Fuselage not centered and tail cut (with titles cut)



Quoting LIPH (Reply 17):
Tail cut

Very poor taste in my opinion
 
LIPH
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RE: Triple Rejection

Thu Mar 22, 2007 3:36 am

Quoting 747438 (Reply 24):
Very poor taste in my opinion

I could agree with you in such a sense. Anyway I'm just looking for answers and trying to understand and to learn from others.

Ciao
Life sucks. Then you die. Live fast, die young.
 
EK20
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RE: Triple Rejection

Thu Mar 22, 2007 3:42 am

LIPH,

Don't get yourself worked up about it. It's just one shot of one aircraft. Was that the only shot you took of it? Are there any other shots of it you could experiment with? The first thing I noticed was how close it was cropped to the engine on the right hand side of the photo. What's the original like? Remember, being on here is meant to be fun. To be honest the examples you posted are far better shots. I don't think it's been mentioned before but to me your shot looks (how can I best word it?) dirty. I can't really express it in words sorry. Just take it with a pinch of salt and try again.
 
LIPH
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RE: Triple Rejection

Thu Mar 22, 2007 5:16 am

Quoting EK20 (Reply 26):

EK,
I agree, this it. I quit, I give up with that shot. But I wouldn't have disliked to learn something new from that rejection, in order not to loose and make another, similar shot. I said that : my intention was to have a fuselage closeup. I love that kind of shots and this is why I'm insisting that I'd like to understand how to shoot them correctly. What's wrong with that ? I'm a  banghead  person. Until I have not learned from my mistakes I'm not satisfied. This is it. I just was looking for answers, clear answers : not "the shots you showed are better than yours". I ask : why ?
But, well, it begins to look like the big search for gold....
Thanks to all anyway. My damn cold is getting worse : I'll take an aspirine (or two) and go to bed : tomorrow is another day.

Ciao
Life sucks. Then you die. Live fast, die young.
 
EK20
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RE: Triple Rejection

Thu Mar 22, 2007 5:23 am

Quoting LIPH (Reply 27):
my intention was to have a fuselage closeup. I love that kind of shots and this is why I'm insisting that I'd like to understand how to shoot them correctly. What's wrong with that ?

Nothing! Don't worry, practice makes perfect. You'll get there and I'll be sat here going "WOW what a shot!" We've all been there, it just takes time and experience. That one just doesn't make the grade but I'm sure the next one will be red hot  Smile
 
eadster
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RE: Triple Rejection

Thu Mar 22, 2007 4:26 pm

Quoting 747438 (Reply 18):

My opinion is that it's not on to criticize the work of others, although I'm sure some will be grateful for the extra hits you have given them.

Fair go mate, he was not criticizing the work of others. Why do people think that posting others shots is having a go at them? I don't see how using a shot as an example is bagging out the shot. How are we to learn without previous examples?

Quoting Rotate (Reply 5):
I really don't get why you try to get this certain shot into the DB ....

Again, LIPH likes the shot. Why criticize the guy for that? Everyone has different tastes. If the man wants to try 5 times, let him. Lets help him for instead of putting his head on the chopping block.

Quoting Rotate (Reply 5):
Rather Concentrate on others .... than trying to get this one in. It only brings you ratio done - its not that special.

Ratio is not everything... and far from the point here. Special to him. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder...

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 6):
All valid points, and yes motiv should be checked, but I actually HQ'd the image, I liked the crop *shrug*

See now a screener here has a different opinion, but we didn't get stuck into him for having a different opinion now did we? No! I have shots in the DB with no tail and no gear showing so clearly LIPH has the right to argue why his is having issues...


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Martin Eadie
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Martin Eadie



One with wheels covered similar to the one in question:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Martin Eadie



Now I actually am of the same opinion as Royal here. I like the shot. The gear and tail are lame rejection reasons as you can see there are others in the DB that have questionable crops, if you refer to the reasons for the shot in question.

LIPH, don't worry, I think you have a valid argument, and you do have 1 or 2 on your side here.
 
Psych
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RE: Triple Rejection

Thu Mar 22, 2007 10:31 pm

Good to see some screeners prepared to discuss motive interpretation in this thread.

LIPH - fundamentally your problem is that you seek clarity in a situation where complete clarity cannot be given; motive is subjective, though 'directed' by certain A.net rules. For example, I agree with Mick on the composition argument - unless a close crop is 'close in' I never understand why photographers leave a large space below the wheels of their subject, yet cut off the top of the fin. For me that offends my views on photographic composition (i.e. there is no clear motive to crop the plane). Thus you will always see photos from me like this:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Paul Markman


....no foreground asphalt, all the tail included. That doesn't mean other compositions are wrong - I just prefer mine.

We are in danger of missing another important aspect of the 'motive' debate here. Sometimes the subject's position relative to you - the photographer - simply prevents a successful attempt at a certain type of motive. In the case of LIPH's plane, the angle is such that the No. 1 (right as we look) engine is going to sabotage any attempt to get a close crop, assuming your goal is A.net acceptance. Either the engine is cropped (and that looks awkward in my opinion) to get close in, or you have to crop more generously to preserve the whole engine cowling and then the plane looks a bit off centre. To use another example of my own below, the only reason I can get a shot like this past the screeners is that the close motive is clear; the angle of the fuselage relative to me means that I can get my 3:2 close enough in so that there is no excess 'dead' space above or below the fuselage; I can preserve the gear doors but not crop the wheels in half; and the closeness means that the cropping off of the tail/horizontal stabiliser etc become irrelevant because they do not draw the viewer's eye and thus become potentially distracting:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Paul Markman


I hope this helps.

Cheers.

Paul
 
LIPH
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RE: Triple Rejection

Thu Mar 22, 2007 10:32 pm

Quoting Eadster (Reply 29):
LIPH, don't worry, I think you have a valid argument, and you do have 1 or 2 on your side here.

Thanks for you clear and transparent support Eadster. Not many people expose themselves as you did. Thanks.

Ciao
Life sucks. Then you die. Live fast, die young.
 
LIPH
Topic Author
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RE: Triple Rejection

Thu Mar 22, 2007 11:06 pm

Quoting Psych (Reply 30):

Thanks also to you, Paul. Very useful post.

Ciao
Life sucks. Then you die. Live fast, die young.
 
EK20
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RE: Triple Rejection

Fri Mar 23, 2007 1:22 am

Quoting LIPH (Reply 31):
Not many people expose themselves as you did

 Wow! Be careful, you can get arrested for that these days.   

[Edited 2007-03-22 18:24:52]
 
eadster
Posts: 2125
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RE: Triple Rejection

Fri Mar 23, 2007 2:53 pm

Quoting EK20 (Reply 33):
Be careful, you can get arrested for that these days.

 laughing 

Quoting LIPH (Reply 31):

Thanks for you clear and transparent support Eadster

 thumbsup  No worries!!
 
AirMalta
Posts: 400
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RE: Triple Rejection

Fri Mar 23, 2007 3:17 pm

Quoting LIPH (Reply 17):
Gear blocked and tail cut

not agreed on this one since the gear here is hidden because of the engine and not cropped

the F900 would have been cropped better agreed but its better not to concentrate on these bits and pieces...the best thing is that we always have to learn from each other on these things!!

Malcolm
 
paulinbna
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RE: Triple Rejection

Fri Mar 23, 2007 5:05 pm

We all have had rejections where we look at them and say what where the screeners smoking, It makes your life a lot easier if you just accept the rejection and move on. I used to get upset about rejections until I realized that the most I have learned is from rejections. I completly changed my way of sharpening becuase I was getting so many oversharpening rejections that was after 2000 pictures in the database.

Oh and 99% of the time if you get a motive rejection you can't fix it with the one you uploaded. Don't get me wrong I still think the rejection reasons should be more comprehensive, but I wont go into that here.
Canon 50D user; 100-400 MM L IS 10-22 MM, 60MM Macro

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