LIPH
Topic Author
Posts: 841
Joined: Mon May 17, 2004 6:29 pm

The Future Of Aviation Photography

Thu Apr 12, 2007 5:34 pm

Hy all,
the title of the thread explain it all : seen the quiet simple and affordable availability of new DSLRs and the increasing number of spotters all around the world, hence the much more difficult challenge to take great, impressive shots,where do you see the world of aviation photography going in the near future ?
My opinion is that it will still remain an affordable hobby for all people, but only a few, and always less, will be the ones that will create really great shots. Probably only people who gain access to restricted areas (such as cockpits for example) will be the ones who lead the edge between an amateuer aviation photographer and a "real" one.
What are you opinions about this issue ?

Ciao
Life sucks. Then you die. Live fast, die young.
 
dc10tim
Posts: 1380
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RE: The Future Of Aviation Photography

Thu Apr 12, 2007 5:42 pm

I think the biggest problem for photographers over the coming years will be the gradual erosion of places to shoot from and deteriorating tolerance towards the hobby, even in western Europe, where it isn't generally a problem at the moment. Even in the relatively short time since I have been into the hobby, I have seen some good spots vanish at the airports I visit due to their expansion (and failure to accommodate enthusiasts), or heightened security post 9/11.

Of course there are exceptions to the rule and I'm lucky to live near some airports that go out of their way to make enthusiasts welcome, but the general trend would not seem to be so positive.

Regards,

Tim.
Obviously missing something....
 
iRISH251
Posts: 622
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RE: The Future Of Aviation Photography

Fri Apr 13, 2007 8:31 am

The ability to take great (or good) shots does not change - it has become easier with the advent of affordable and high-quality DSLR equipment but the eye and skill of the photographer is still what makes the difference between an average and an outstanding photo.

The main change since I began the hobby 25 or so years ago is that many people seem to be taking photos less for their own satisfaction and to preserve their own memories and more to achieve uploads and hits on this or other websites. This website started out as a place where genuinely interesting photos of aircraft from around the world - old and new - could be viewed. While it still performs this function, much of the novelty has worn off and I find myself more interested in the older "gems" than the technically slick current photos. Many of the best photos here have been taken by amateurs who, while taking photos primarily for their own enjoyment, also managed to record commercial and military aviation over the years and whose photos now serve as a rich archive for people around the world to view. I hope that this will remain one of the features of our hobby - website hits are not the only measure by which the value and potential for enjoyment should be measured.
 
dc10tim
Posts: 1380
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 12:21 am

RE: The Future Of Aviation Photography

Fri Apr 13, 2007 9:03 am

I agree entirely Irish251. Don't get me wrong, I love posting shots on this site, and meeting the current criteria is a real challenge sometimes, but ultimately it is actually going to the airport with my camera that I enjoy. Editing can be a real pain (partially because I'm not that great). I have hundreds (possibly thousands) of shots that I could upload, but I prefer to choose the ones that people might find of interest, one way or another.

Regards,

Tim.
Obviously missing something....
 
Chukcha
Posts: 2019
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RE: The Future Of Aviation Photography

Fri Apr 13, 2007 2:04 pm

Just a thought I wanted to share, but hadn't had a suitable topic, and didn't want to start one, either...

While at Avalon airshow, being a lucky holder of a Media pass, I spent quite a bit of time in the little enclosure at the front of the viewing area reserved for the media and occupied mostly by professional photographers. I watched them work, and mostly it looked like that: as soon as anything went up, the huge lenses were pointed in the sky, and the shooting was done in the continuous drive mode, and the speed of some of those cameras was absolutely staggering. If it was flak, the planes would stand no chance. It didn't even look like photography, more like shooting cinema to me. Then they were showing lucky shots to each other, and there would be quite a few, because if you are proficient enough with the camera that can shoot at, say, 10 fps, and there are these aircraft in the sky doing all those fantastic things, and you have virtually unlimited memory storage, you just shoot away, and you are simply bound to get some good ones.

I'm not aiming this post at the lucky owners of such equipment. It's life - everything moves on, and there is no way we'll ever go back to the good old times, when cameras were slow, film supply limited, and when it took a bit of work to set up every shot.

My point is: is it even art any more, or is it getting downgraded to just some sort of a trade?

It is not an attack aimed at anyone; if I had this sort of equipment I'd be using it, too. I'm just interested to hear other people opinions.

As for great shots, I believe, there will actually be more of them, but it will be harder to find them among the ocean of mediocre pictures. There will be more good photographers, too, but for them, it will be more difficult to get noticed - supply will be much greater than demand...
 
sulman
Posts: 1963
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2004 5:09 am

RE: The Future Of Aviation Photography

Fri Apr 13, 2007 5:19 pm

Quoting Irish251 (Reply 2):
While it still performs this function, much of the novelty has worn off and I find myself more interested in the older "gems" than the technically slick current photos.

This is something I find interesting. There's some good older shots in the database that wouldn't warrant inclusion if they were taken today, typically on motive grounds. I'm referring to shots with ramp lice or maintenance equipment. A great example is the first TWA 747-100 being completed, and the similar Pan-Am shot from the same era; absolute gold.

On the other hand, the great proliferation of cameras now means that no stage of an aircraft's life is going to be missed - the A380 has had an unprecedented pictorial history, which will be matched by the 787 I'm sure.

I don't agree that all people shoot for hits. Ultimately, what you see at Airliners and other sites represents a minute fraction of photographers - for every glamour shot of an Airbus submitted here, there's got to be countless more that others have taken for their own collection.


James
It takes a big man to admit they are wrong, and I am not a big man.
 
LIPH
Topic Author
Posts: 841
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RE: The Future Of Aviation Photography

Fri Apr 13, 2007 5:40 pm

Quoting Chukcha (Reply 4):

My point is: is it even art any more, or is it getting downgraded to just some sort of a trade?

Well Andrei,
with A.net standards and rules concerning motives (altough recently revised) I would NOT say that this kind of photography share something with art. It's more about technology I would say...
Trade ? Yes I'd say yes. The costant search for the top picture requires "up to the standards" equipment. Even though the result is a combination of various things a top equipment surely helps. I own the Canon 100-400 L IS. If I hadn't visited the forum and noticed how many great pictures has been taken with this lens, probably I wouldn't have taken it into consideration for purchase. If you own a website which talks about aviation photography and it turns out that a lens, or a camera, is good, well who has enough money probably will follow these advices. I would say money and trade are involved as an "adverse effect".

Quoting Chukcha (Reply 4):
it will be more difficult to get noticed - supply will be much greater than demand..

I don't even think that demand is high nowdays...One the quetions I wondered is "why you shoot for?". When a purchase thread comes out here in the forum we're talking about 50-100 bucks reward...That's nothing. I mean : here in Italy with that amount you can eat a pizza and go clubbing for a night, but that's all...I wonder how many people live with aviation photography...I guess very very few...

Ciao
Life sucks. Then you die. Live fast, die young.
 
OD720
Posts: 1856
Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2003 6:46 am

RE: The Future Of Aviation Photography

Fri Apr 13, 2007 6:27 pm

Quoting Sulman (Reply 5):
On the other hand, the great proliferation of cameras now means that no stage of an aircraft's life is going to be missed

A very good point indeed. And it's all documented and free to view for those who would be researching on the subject in the future.

Imagine 20 years later a kid developing interest and finding all in a few clicks. Absolutely amazing!
 
Kukkudrill
Posts: 1039
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2004 10:11 pm

RE: The Future Of Aviation Photography

Fri Apr 13, 2007 9:01 pm

Quoting LIPH (Thread starter):
My opinion is that it will still remain an affordable hobby for all people, but only a few, and always less, will be the ones that will create really great shots.

I think the opposite will happen. The more photographers there are, the greater the pool from which high-class talents can emerge.

Quoting Chukcha (Reply 4):
as soon as anything went up, the huge lenses were pointed in the sky, and the shooting was done in the continuous drive mode, and the speed of some of those cameras was absolutely staggering. If it was flak, the planes would stand no chance.

I suspect that professional press photographers are simply used to shooting that way. As an amateur, I wouldn't shoot like that because it eats up shutter life so frighteningly fast. I can't afford to replace my gear so I rarely use burst mode these days.

Quoting Sulman (Reply 5):
I don't agree that all people shoot for hits. Ultimately, what you see at Airliners and other sites represents a minute fraction of photographers - for every glamour shot of an Airbus submitted here, there's got to be countless more that others have taken for their own collection.

Very true.
Make the most of the available light ... a lesson of photography that applies to life
 
LIPH
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RE: The Future Of Aviation Photography

Fri Apr 13, 2007 9:47 pm

Quoting Kukkudrill (Reply 8):
The more photographers there are, the greater the pool from which high-class talents can emerge.

It's a market rule "Kukku"  Wink : the more offer, the less quality, the "cheaper price". Soon there will be no medium level photogs : there will be a few top photogs and a bunch of low rated "side shots" amateur photogs....And most probably the point will be not *what* you shoot with anymore, but rather *WHERE* you will be...

Ciao
Life sucks. Then you die. Live fast, die young.
 
INNflight
Posts: 3526
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 5:11 am

RE: The Future Of Aviation Photography

Fri Apr 13, 2007 10:14 pm

Quoting LIPH (Reply 9):
And most probably the point will be not *what* you shoot with anymore, but rather *WHERE* you will be...

Sorry to disagree with you Giovanni.....it will always be about *HOW* somebody shoots it. You can't buy skill, talent, a good eye or imagination in a camera store.
Jet Visuals
 
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clickhappy
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RE: The Future Of Aviation Photography

Fri Apr 13, 2007 10:32 pm

a bunch of low rated "side shots" amateur photogs

This hobby was built on side on, 50mm slides.

People seem to be clueless that aviation photography as a hobby has been around for 50 years.

Airliners.net has been here 10.

Do the math.
 
LIPH
Topic Author
Posts: 841
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RE: The Future Of Aviation Photography

Fri Apr 13, 2007 10:33 pm

Quoting INNflight (Reply 10):
it will always be about *HOW* somebody shoots it. You can't buy skill, talent, a good eye or imagination in a camera store.

Of course...but skill, talent and imagination are helped by the enviroment you shoot from. It's the enviroment that suggests to me a shot...It'll be hard for me to take a 2 sec exposure shot from the cockpit of the new A380, while landing at Rio, just waiting on the ground...It'll be hard to be the first to shoot a top class seat of the new bought 787 if I don't buy a 6000$ ticket or if I don't get invited to the cerimony...See what I mean ? This probably will make the difference between top rated photogs and the majority of us.
It's nice and fun to stand at the top corner of RWY 04R at Venice airport, but at the end you get bored...you need new challenges, new angles (personally not new "construction numbers" or "registrations"). And not all of them are available for all people...

Ciao
Life sucks. Then you die. Live fast, die young.
 
boeingfreak
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RE: The Future Of Aviation Photography

Fri Apr 13, 2007 11:19 pm

With the DSLRs getting more and more affordable for amateurs the number of spotters producing
(image-)quality-wise acceptable shots for a.net and other websites will definitely increase as well as the standards of the websites. The more photographers there are the more creativity and diversity will be there so I don't think that the number of great shots will decrease but the number of average quality-wise acceptable shots definitely will increase.
Just my  twocents 

Cheers,
Florian  wave 
 
INNflight
Posts: 3526
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RE: The Future Of Aviation Photography

Sat Apr 14, 2007 12:58 am

Quoting LIPH (Reply 12):
It'll be hard for me to take a 2 sec exposure shot from the cockpit of the new A380, while landing at Rio, just waiting on the ground...It'll be hard to be the first to shoot a top class seat of the new bought 787 if I don't buy a 6000$ ticket or if I don't get invited to the cerimony...See what I mean ?

Of course you have a valid point, but - see what I mean  Smile - it's not the future, that's present, and was past too.
There'll always be some with special access, special opportuneties, but in the end it's just about how much you are willing to put into it.
Jet Visuals
 
JRadier
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RE: The Future Of Aviation Photography

Sat Apr 14, 2007 1:02 am

Quoting LIPH (Reply 9):
Soon there will be no medium level photogs : there will be a few top photogs and a bunch of low rated "side shots" amateur photogs

I don't think this is the case, you will always have the middle class. Technically there is not much holding you back to become middle class so I think it will grow. I like to consider myself middle-class as well. I am not blessed with 'the eye' but I think I take above average photo's.
For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and ther
 
jwenting
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RE: The Future Of Aviation Photography

Sat Apr 14, 2007 1:11 am

And remember that most of the "top" are just inflated egos calling themselves "top" and denigrating others in order to discourage people from improving their skill level.
I wish I were flying
 
JRadier
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RE: The Future Of Aviation Photography

Sat Apr 14, 2007 1:17 am

Looks like the always positive Jwenting has returned.  Yeah sure

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 16):
And remember that most of the "top" are just inflated egos calling themselves "top" and denigrating others in order to discourage people from improving their skill level.

I do not agree. I am not going to mention specific persons, but I personally know a few photographers from this site who are considered 'top', and they are very friendly people just like you and me. Furthermore I got loads of tips from them, and I see them doing the same here on the forums.

[Edited 2007-04-13 18:19:51]
For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and ther
 
EK20
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Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2007 6:31 pm

RE: The Future Of Aviation Photography

Sat Apr 14, 2007 2:18 am

Quoting INNflight (Reply 14):
it's just about how much you are willing to put into it.

And there we have a winner!  Wink
 
chrisair
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RE: The Future Of Aviation Photography

Sat Apr 14, 2007 10:29 am

Quoting Kukkudrill (Reply 8):
I suspect that professional press photographers are simply used to shooting that way. As an amateur, I wouldn't shoot like that because it eats up shutter life so frighteningly fast. I can't afford to replace my gear so I rarely use burst mode these days.

If you are limiting how you shoot because you're afraid of blowing a shutter, stop, relax, and let it rip. You won't blow a shutter simply because you use the 8fps or whatever. Shutters are made to last a very, very long time. Yes, you can hit the useable life of the shutter quicker, BUT, I suspect you wouldn't use it that much. Besides, the shutter is going to go up and down--whether or not it's shot at 8fps or 2fps.

Don't be afraid to shoot. You're not going to hurt the camera.

And, I'd be willing to guess that many press photogs use the motor drive when necessary. Believe me, you don't go into certain stories and blast the shutter.  Smile
 
Chukcha
Posts: 2019
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2006 10:57 am

RE: The Future Of Aviation Photography

Sat Apr 14, 2007 11:24 am

Quoting JRadier (Reply 15):
I am not blessed with 'the eye' but I think I take above average photo's.

Yes, that's what makes me blue with envy - not the top equipment, but the proverbial photographer's 'eye'  Smile .

What saves the day for us A.net photographers (most of us, anyway) is the beauty of the subject matter. The airplanes are just too photogenic, they look great even in a below average shot. If it is even slightly above average - they look gorgeous  Smile .

P.S: JRadier, I just had a look at your pictures. You are cutting yourself short - there is nothing wrong with your eye, IMHO  Wink ...
 
brianw999
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RE: The Future Of Aviation Photography

Sat Apr 14, 2007 12:06 pm

To go back to DC10Tim's post (reply 1).

What I cannot understand is the variable attitudes by the airport authorities to aviation photographers at different airports around the UK. I've never been to Manchester but it seems that the airport authorities there bend over backwards to supply facilities for spotters and the generally interested public whereas at Gatwick about the only place you don't get grief is at the 26 threshold on the perimeter road...and if you're driving and want to park up, well, forget it !

Heathrow is not too bad but I hear that there are plans to build a parkland area in the 09L ILS field (Carbon footprint replacement as the reason for doing it). What's the betting that spotters are then banned from the park or extortionate parking charges introduced ? Just think though, wouldn't it be nice if they built a viewing gallery there. I'd be prepared to pay a reasonable fee to park and use the gallery.

Stansted ?.....I don't bother going there. The only place that you won't get grief is on the north side fence behind the trees....with the sun in your face just about all day.

The excuse that you're given by the police at these various places is "Anti terrorism rules".....but just think for a moment. Surely the best deterrent against wrongdoers is to allow people to collect in certain locations. Checking photographers out would be a relatively simple procedure given the amount of personal data available to the police via the Police National Computer and their local intelligence data. Most spotters / photographers know most of their fellows by sight, we know the difference between a 500mm lens and a SAM7 and will be damn quick to call the relevant authority if we see something out of the ordinary or suspicious. That's not just my view either, it's a view held by more than a few police officer acquaintances of mine., and let's face it, when has there ever been ANY evidence of terrorists standing at an airport fence taking photographs. I actually feel rather sorry for the police.They have to apply the orders of their superiors when they would much rather be performing proper police work.

The future ? Not rosy in my opinion. Our nanny state is hell bent on restricting us poor taxpayers to being happy, provided it suits the politicians. You'll soon only be allowed near an airport if you can produce proof that you're actually going to fly somewhere, an activity in itself that is becoming more expensive due to the highway robbery known as "Green Surcharges". ....and that's another subject that I won't get into here.
 
Dehowie
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RE: The Future Of Aviation Photography

Sat Apr 14, 2007 1:30 pm

Quoting Chukcha (Reply 4):
Then they were showing lucky shots to each other, and there would be quite a few, because if you are proficient enough with the camera that can shoot at, say, 10 fps, and there are these aircraft in the sky doing all those fantastic things, and you have virtually unlimited memory storage, you just shoot away, and you are simply bound to get some good ones.

G'day Chukcha
Mate i hope this desn't come across to strongly but how do yo figure that standing in the sun,rain and wind for 5 days means that when good shots come along the guys where simply "lucky".
Sorry mate but thats one of the better insults i have heard on the forums continually.
Someone invests thousands of dollars in the best optics and cameras the dollar can buy and then when after standing in a 35kt wind blazing sun and dust like on the Friday and you get a shot even i can be proud of you are told by someone that it was "luck".
The 10FPS gives you the ability to capture images that people with less capable equipment may miss plain and simple.Those great shots you see where a flare is caught just after ejecting from a flare port is luck if its taken with a single shot camera as nobody can anticipate that.However the 9fps camera allows you to get that shot maybe depending on whether you can hold the aircraft in fame while pointing a 4kg lens camera combo at the aeroplane doing 400+Kts while the lens hood is being dragged all over the place by 25kts of wind.
Sorry mate but good gear does take great pics but it makes taking good ones a lot easier.
http://www.jetwashimages.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10010/bigeagle2s.jpg
Dazz

[Edited 2007-04-14 06:33:35]
2EOS1DX,EF14.2.8LII,17TS,85/1.2,16-35L,24-70LII,24L,70-200F2.8LII,100-400,300/400/500/800L
 
Chukcha
Posts: 2019
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RE: The Future Of Aviation Photography

Sat Apr 14, 2007 2:14 pm

Quoting Dehowie (Reply 22):
Sorry mate but thats one of the better insults i have heard on the forums continually.

Sorry, mate, wasn't intended.

Quoting Dehowie (Reply 22):
Mate i hope this desn't come across to strongly but how do yo figure that standing in for 5 days means that when good shots come along the guys where simply "lucky".

Well, I guess, it's just comes with job. I don't really feel sorry for you suffering 'in the sun,rain and wind'. I myself spent four days in the same weather running around like a chook with his head cut off collecting material for my articles and taking pictures, too. I don't know how many times a day I covered the distance from one end of the show to the other, but by the end of the day my socks were soaked with blood. I got sunburned, dehydrated, and in four days never got enough sleep. And you know what? Loved every minute of it. Not because I'm a masochist, but because that's what I enjoy doing more than anything else.

So, let's not start about hardships of your work. There are jobs out there that are a lot harder, trust me. I reckon if you have taken it on you don't complain. I also guess that you are willing to put up with all that not because you are desperate to feed you family, but because you love what you are doing, and you wouldn't change you job for any other one, not in a million years. Am I right or am I wrong ?

Quoting Dehowie (Reply 22):
Someone invests thousands of dollars in the best optics and cameras the dollar can buy and then when after standing in a 35kt wind blazing sun and dust like on the Friday and you get a shot even i can be proud of you are told by someone that it was "luck".

What's wrong with 'luck'? I didn't mean it as an insult. Some element of luck is an inherent part of any reporter's job. As for the pre-digital era photographers, their equipment was not any cheaper, and they also had their share of 'wind blazing sun and dust'. The only difference now is more advanced technology, and if you read my post carefully, I have nothing against using it.

I raised a question in my post about whether this kind of photography is true art? I wanted to see some answers to that question, some opinions. You haven''t answered it, you've just said what I already know.

Cheers,
Andrei.

[Edited 2007-04-14 07:19:27]
 
dendrobatid
Posts: 1645
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RE: The Future Of Aviation Photography

Sat Apr 14, 2007 4:00 pm

Quoting Irish251 (Reply 2):
The main change since I began the hobby 25 or so years ago is that many people seem to be taking photos less for their own satisfaction and to preserve their own memories and more to achieve uploads and hits on this or other websites.

Again, perhaps due to my age, I think that this discussion reached its peak at the above comment by Irish251 (Reply 2) - it sums up my feelings. Even further back than Irish, I was photographing aircraft to record them though they were rarely seen by others apart from a few in camera club competitions. I even won one with a very large home-printed one of this, one that would be almost childs' play to take today. It was considered special in 1977 as it was never easy to make very large prints from 35mm film.

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Mick Bajcar


I love photography, I love aircraft and I liked to record them. Very few people did with the GA stuff though there were more recording airliners and military. Thank goodness we did !
Irish is right and today the subject, the aircraft, is to some almost irrelevant with the hits being the subtantial reason for the taking of the photo in the first place. I have never understood why a single aircraft seat will get massive hits but it does explain (to me) why people continue to upload them in substantial numbers! There is still a place here for the record shots and I still take them because I still like to record aircraft, aircraft that one day will be gone. The technicalities of digital make it far, far easier to get that spectacular shot but time and again I see people not bothering to lift their cameras at the mundane where the mundane can still make a spectacular shot. We had an excuse for not doing so, the cost, and to my eternal regret, I did not do enough. The only reason today can be that they will not be popular ! I don't do many spectacular ones but I do record them well and there is a place here for both interests.
Without the love of the aircraft people will drift away from the hobby, but others will drift in and pass through. I doubt that many will last the 40+ years that I have !
Mick Bajcar
 
Kukkudrill
Posts: 1039
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2004 10:11 pm

RE: The Future Of Aviation Photography

Sat Apr 14, 2007 6:09 pm

Quoting Chrisair (Reply 19):
If you are limiting how you shoot because you're afraid of blowing a shutter, stop, relax, and let it rip. You won't blow a shutter simply because you use the 8fps or whatever. Shutters are made to last a very, very long time. Yes, you can hit the useable life of the shutter quicker, BUT, I suspect you wouldn't use it that much. Besides, the shutter is going to go up and down--whether or not it's shot at 8fps or 2fps.

It's not the speed that worries me but the accumulation of shutter cycles. I have a 350D, whose shutter is said to be rated for 50,000 cycles. A friend of mine who also uses a 350D has had his shutter fail after 40,000 shots - he'd had it for about a year and a half. I shoot conservatively but I'm already getting to 10,000 after a bit over a year. Digital encourages you to shoot more, and the shutter life does get eaten up fast.
Make the most of the available light ... a lesson of photography that applies to life
 
INNflight
Posts: 3526
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 5:11 am

RE: The Future Of Aviation Photography

Sat Apr 14, 2007 7:29 pm

Quoting Kukkudrill (Reply 25):
and the shutter life does get eaten up fast.

Don't worry...really. You theoretically have another 4 years up to the 50,000....by then it's VERY likely you already upgraded anyway  Smile
Jet Visuals
 
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walter2222
Posts: 1237
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RE: The Future Of Aviation Photography

Sat Apr 14, 2007 8:31 pm

Quoting Dendrobatid (Reply 24):
I doubt that many will last the 40+ years that I have !

I am getting very close....  Smile

Quoting Dendrobatid (Reply 24):
I love photography, I love aircraft and I liked to record them

 checkmark   checkmark 

What I am worried about is that with my current ratio of transferring old slides into digital (which is also a very nice time-consumer!), I will not live long enough to transfer everything  Wink luckily, not all those old slides are worth transferring!

Best regards,

Walter
Canon 347d mkII ;-) - EFS10-22mm f/3.5-4.5 USM - EFS18-55mm - EF28-105mm f3.5/4.5 - EF100-400mm f4.5-5.6l IS USM - ...
 
JRadier
Posts: 3943
Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2004 11:36 pm

RE: The Future Of Aviation Photography

Sun Apr 15, 2007 6:01 am

Quoting Chukcha (Reply 20):

P.S: JRadier, I just had a look at your pictures. You are cutting yourself short - there is nothing wrong with your eye, IMHO Wink ...

Thanks for writing my name correctly :P. And for the comment as well. I still think I don't have 'it', but I'm too self critical at times.

Quoting Dehowie (Reply 22):
The 10FPS gives you the ability to capture images that people with less capable equipment may miss plain and simple.

I have to agree. For instance the Blue Angles, the high speed passes. No way you are going to get a good crossing with 2 aircraft nicely framed, it's working that shutter and hoping for the best.
For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and ther
 
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Scooter01
Posts: 1183
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 11:06 pm

RE: The Future Of Aviation Photography

Sun Apr 15, 2007 6:55 am

Quoting Chukcha (Reply 4):
the huge lenses were pointed in the sky, and the shooting was done in the continuous drive mode, and the speed of some of those cameras was absolutely staggering

Takes me back to the mid '70es when I used to go to the CNE Airshows with 2 Kodak Retina Reflex bodies (I had only one 135mm lens) and snapped shots as fast as my fingers could fly. When one film was used up, I changed the lens to the other camera-body, continued shooting and re-loaded the film when there was a break in the program. Luckily I worked at a photofinishing laboratory, so the costs were acceptable.

Quoting Dendrobatid (Reply 24):
I love photography, I love aircraft and I liked to record them.

So do I. But it's not as fun anymore. When I was a kid I could roam around at Fornebu, the old airport at Oslo, all day with my old Yashica Minister. One of my favourite shots is of a C-124 tail with an MiL 6 helicopter behind it.
(Have to get myself a film-scanner one of these days)  old 
The airport-people got used to see me around and I guess that as long as I watched myself and didn't do anything stupid it was OK with them. Try something like that today!

Aviation photography has always been a hobby for me and a hobby should be something fun and relaxing.

Don't get me wrong -I have the utmost respect for most of the A.net photographers, but there are only so many twin-jets on final approach with their wheels out that are worth watching  duck 

Scooter
There is always a good reason to watch airplanes
 
chrisair
Posts: 1776
Joined: Fri Sep 01, 2000 11:32 pm

RE: The Future Of Aviation Photography

Sun Apr 15, 2007 8:09 am

Quoting Kukkudrill (Reply 25):
A friend of mine who also uses a 350D has had his shutter fail after 40,000 shots - he'd had it for about a year and a half.

Here's the thing though, your shutter can fail at 5,000 frames, 10,000 frames or 500,000 frames. I had a D1X shutter go out with about 25,000 or so on it. My D2h has about 500,000, and still has the original shutter--the one that's supposedly faulty. I think it's rated at 250,000. (I don't use either of these cameras anymore).

I'd be more worried about dropping your camera, or having a screw come loose from the lens and really mess up the innards (this happened to a collegue of mine--he broke the contacts off and the screw got stuck in the shutter), than having the shutter go out. Get out and shoot, that's what your camera is made to do.
 
AirSpare
Posts: 570
Joined: Fri Jun 30, 2006 1:13 am

RE: The Future Of Aviation Photography

Sun Apr 15, 2007 11:31 am

Quoting Dehowie (Reply 22):
good ones a lot easier

Great photo, I don't have a DSLR but it's obvious it has advantages.

Quoting Scooter01 (Reply 29):
get myself a film-scanner one of these days

Me too!

There are a lot of great shots that we just don't have access to. I have SR-71 mtx flightline shots from the day, but now as an old head, I'd love to spend a day at LHR on the ramp with a wide, a tripod, some Reala, on 35mm or 6x4.5, and ytf_n with a 4x5 either? I'd rather be able to walk around.

But damn, I flew AA Flagship F on #57 2x with a 35mm RF, a 16mm Hologon and a carry on size CF Gitzo tripod and a RRS ballhead, and didn't even ask to to take photos on board, it would have taken me 3 minutes to set up.

Do the majority of high px, fast DSLRs print or just post?
Get someone else for your hero worship fetish
 
skidmarks
Posts: 6614
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 7:51 pm

RE: The Future Of Aviation Photography

Sun Apr 15, 2007 3:59 pm

I have countless shots that are not A.net quality - neither are they good enough for most other sites. But they were taken because I wanted to illustrate my hobby, which is aircraft spotting.

Sites like A.net certainly up the standard of photograph I take but I still take "crap" shots if I want to record an aircraft that I haven't seen before but cannot get into a decent position. According to my rejection rate I actually take rather a lot of "crap" shots but we won't go into that here !  wink 

The point is there is a disticnt difference between the people taking pictures for their own pleasure and purpose and the people who want to take that wonderful shot that will earn them applause and kudos. I would hope that I fall somewhere in the middle. Taking reasonable pictures, some of which are good enough for a site like A.net but the majority for my own personal pleasure and use.

One day I'll make my own website and inflict my Kodak Instamatic shots from the 1960's on the world.  wideeyed 

And never forget, for the vast majority here, it's a hobby, not a business.

Andy  old 
Growing old is compulsory, growing up is optional
 
dendrobatid
Posts: 1645
Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2004 3:40 pm

RE: The Future Of Aviation Photography

Sun Apr 15, 2007 5:10 pm

Quoting Kukkudrill (Reply 25):
It's not the speed that worries me but the accumulation of shutter cycles. I have a 350D, whose shutter is said to be rated for 50,000 cycles. A friend of mine who also uses a 350D has had his shutter fail after 40,000 shots - he'd had it for about a year and a half. I shoot conservatively but I'm already getting to 10,000 after a bit over a year. Digital encourages you to shoot more, and the shutter life does get eaten up fast.

This is a perverse attitude and, if you continue your interest in aviation, one you will live to regret in the same way as I have for not taking enough photos all those years ago.
Your worry about the shutter is like buying a saw and not using it in case it gets blunt. The camera is a tool too, not an item of jewellery to be displayed to your friends, use it as such !
It is never easy to learn from the experiences of others but try to learn from mine or my words may be echoing around your head in years to come !
Mick Bajcar
 
skidmarks
Posts: 6614
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 7:51 pm

RE: The Future Of Aviation Photography

Sun Apr 15, 2007 9:41 pm

Quoting Dendrobatid (Reply 33):

Quite right Mick. And with all tools, a bit of TLC makes them last longer. If you're worried about shutter failure after a lot of frames, use it more sparingly, compose your pictures the old way and forget it's digital. That way you'll both conserve your shutter life and learn more about the pasttime.

Of couorse, this isn't always possible or right. Sometimes you just have to rattle off a consecutive sequence in order to get the one shot you need, but I'll bet 99% of the time a bit of thought and planning will take out the rapid fire requirement.

As I was taught in the Air Force when firing the old SLR rifle and the SA80 - single aimed shots and shoot to kill! Big grin

Andy  old 
Growing old is compulsory, growing up is optional
 
AirSpare
Posts: 570
Joined: Fri Jun 30, 2006 1:13 am

RE: The Future Of Aviation Photography

Sun Apr 15, 2007 11:27 pm

BTW, you can still replace a shutter on a Nikon FE2, the last I had replaced was 200 bucks total. Sure, it's old school but with a motor drive, it could blast 36 frames pretty damn fast, nothing wrong with "old" Nikkors, ED glass either. But the thread is not about shutter cycles!

Quoting LIPH (Thread starter):
only people who gain access to restricted areas

Back to the OP, yea, but then I guess it's been that way for a long time. The last time I was face to face with an aircraft was with a Pit Pass at Reno in the late 80s. Nothing like being 12 meters from watching Rare Bear running up it's big radial and prop for mtx, panels off. Or walking up to Strega after Tiger is shutting down and deplaning just he clinched the Gold on Day Four. Right smack in the middle of the ramp, 5 feet from Strega, damn I even beat the press there!

Rant-It would be great to see more threads on photos or photo categories, then how to get them a.net approved.

Ok, I'm going to go start one on "Wrecks", I'll see if it bombs.

AirSpare
Get someone else for your hero worship fetish
 
Kukkudrill
Posts: 1039
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2004 10:11 pm

RE: The Future Of Aviation Photography

Mon Apr 16, 2007 12:02 am

Quoting Dendrobatid (Reply 33):
This is a perverse attitude and, if you continue your interest in aviation, one you will live to regret in the same way as I have for not taking enough photos all those years ago.

Why will I regret shooting two or three shots of an approach sequence instead of eight or ten on burst mode? Or passing up on a KM Airbus because I already have tons of shots of the same aircraft in better light? This is what I've been talking about, not keeping my camera in a box or something.  Smile

Quoting Skidmarks (Reply 34):
Quite right Mick. And with all tools, a bit of TLC makes them last longer. If you're worried about shutter failure after a lot of frames, use it more sparingly, compose your pictures the old way and forget it's digital. That way you'll both conserve your shutter life and learn more about the pasttime.

Of couorse, this isn't always possible or right. Sometimes you just have to rattle off a consecutive sequence in order to get the one shot you need, but I'll bet 99% of the time a bit of thought and planning will take out the rapid fire requirement.

 checkmark   checkmark 

Quoting AirSpare (Reply 35):
But the thread is not about shutter cycles!

OK, I'll say no more on the subject.  ziplip 
Make the most of the available light ... a lesson of photography that applies to life
 
GAWZU
Posts: 195
Joined: Tue May 07, 2002 3:10 pm

RE: The Future Of Aviation Photography

Mon Apr 16, 2007 6:30 am

Quoting BrianW999 (Reply 21):
Stansted ?.....I don't bother going there. The only place that you won't get grief is on the north side fence behind the trees....with the sun in your face just about all day.

Not sure I agree with that! As a STN local, I use locations at both ends of the airfield (and on either side of the approach at both, mornings and afternoons) and it's been 18 months since I was last pulled over, let alone moved on. Let me know if you'd like me to forward you some more information...
 
lanpie
Posts: 290
Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2000 3:14 am

RE: The Future Of Aviation Photography

Mon Apr 16, 2007 8:53 am

I agree with Dendrobatid reply 24,

I have been into photography since 1969 and interested in aviation photography during 1976 when someone from the USA ask me if I could take a photo of a Cubana DC-8 coming to Montreal (YUL). At that time I was using Kodachrome film 25 or 64 ASA.

I took slides of commercial aircrafts from that time until early 1990. I had a few years on the quiet side and started again around 1998. Now I take photos of all types of aircraft. I also attend different fly-in or air show events in the province of Quebec and Ontario.

It is a great hobby and hopefully it will last for many more years.

Pierre
 
Chukcha
Posts: 2019
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2006 10:57 am

RE: The Future Of Aviation Photography

Mon Apr 16, 2007 10:35 am

Quoting Dendrobatid (Reply 33):
you will live to regret in the same way as I have for not taking enough photos all those years ago.

Spot on, Mick! In all my fourteen years in the Soviet Aeroflot, I only took a handful of pictures, because there was a very strict policy about not taking shots inside the airport area. A friend of mine though would sneak his camera in many times and ended up with lots of great pictures.

And what would have happened if I got caught? They wouldn't have put me against the wall; at the most I would have got told of and ended up in the KGB guy's bad books (where I was anyway for my other antics ).

That's what I regret now, big time.

Here are some photos taken by my friends on the sly:

President of France F. Mitteran visiting Uzbekistan in 1994


Kabul, 1989. This aircraft later crashed on approach at Kabul airport


Kabul, 1989. Burned-out Antonov An-10 (maybe An-8)


Quoting JRadier (Reply 28):
Quoting Dehowie (Reply 22):
The 10FPS gives you the ability to capture images that people with less capable equipment may miss plain and simple.

I have to agree.

Just to make myself clear again: I have nothing against this kind of equipment, and I have utmost respect for professional photographers using it. My post was about something totally else.

I personally don't own such equipment, because I don't need it for my particular needs. Investing that much money and then using the camera and lens once or twice a year seems a bit over the top for me. However, for a professional photographer or a serious amatuer who does a lot of this sort of shooting, having and using this gear is fully justified.

What really puts me off, is the sort or remarks when, for instance, one time on this forum a novice asks advice on a budget camera and lens, and one of the forum regulars suggest to him to get a better paid job... well, it is plain rude. Most of us know that this regular in this case is just being himself, but for a new person on the forum it may be quite a bit disheartening.

Quoting Lanpie (Reply 38):

It is a great hobby and hopefully it will last for many more years.



Cheers,
Andrei

[Edited 2007-04-16 03:38:50]
 
User avatar
United_fan
Posts: 6370
Joined: Fri Nov 24, 2000 11:11 am

RE: The Future Of Aviation Photography

Wed Apr 18, 2007 5:09 am

Quoting BrianW999 (Reply 21):
The excuse that you're given by the police at these various places is "Anti terrorism rules".....but just think for a moment. Surely the best deterrent against wrongdoers is to allow people to collect in certain locations. Checking photographers out would be a relatively simple procedure given the amount of personal data available to the police via the Police National Computer and their local intelligence data. Most spotters / photographers know most of their fellows by sight, we know the difference between a 500mm lens and a SAM7 and will be damn quick to call the relevant authority if we see something out of the ordinary or suspicious

I too agree,but the Police don't...I already tried that excuse.Plus,the rules are differant for every airport in the US. What is embraced in MIA,FLL,LAX and LAS is considered terrorist activity in BUF (yes,I was accused of this in '06 there). There will always be people with the $ to fly all the worlds best airlines in 1st class and take pics there,those with ramp access and those who have the $$ to buy the best equipment.
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