graphic
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Well, Now That The Queue Limit Has Been Lowered

Sun Apr 22, 2007 10:40 am

And daily uploads have dropped down to about 800-900, it seems as though wait time has nearly doubled lately. Whats up with that?
Demand Media fails at life
 
bmibaby737
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RE: Well, Now That The Queue Limit Has Been Lowered

Sun Apr 22, 2007 7:23 pm

Currently less than 100 photos are in screening... with over 7,000 photos waiting! Earlier this year it went down to 4,000 and there a huge hype over it, but they didn't manage to keep it that level!

Don't get me wrong, the screeners are a fantastic bunch and they do a marvelous job!

bmi

[Edited 2007-04-22 12:26:33]
 
eddl
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RE: Well, Now That The Queue Limit Has Been Lowered

Sun Apr 22, 2007 10:29 pm

I don't care if I have to wait five days or two weeks to get my pictures screened. Actually I really appreciate if a screener leaves a personal message explaining a rejection. That slows down the screening process somewhat, but it's worth it.

Phil / EDDL
 
Stil
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RE: Well, Now That The Queue Limit Has Been Lowered

Sun Apr 22, 2007 10:55 pm

Quoting EDDL (Reply 2):

 checkmark   checkmark   checkmark   checkmark   checkmark 

I agree 100 %

Stil
....... Gueropppa! ......
 
bmibaby737
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RE: Well, Now That The Queue Limit Has Been Lowered

Sun Apr 22, 2007 11:22 pm

Quoting EDDL (Reply 2):
I don't care if I have to wait five days or two weeks to get my pictures screened. Actually I really appreciate if a screener leaves a personal message explaining a rejection. That slows down the screening process somewhat, but it's worth it.

I do find that when an image is in the queue for a long period of time, I have more chances to study the image and pull it if I see fit!

Having the personal messages are fantastic! Screeners are doing a very good job indeed.
 
maiznblu_757
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RE: Well, Now That The Queue Limit Has Been Lowered

Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:05 am

Quoting Graphic (Thread starter):
Well, Now That The Queue Limit Has Been Lowered

Zzzzzzzz.....  Wink

Quoting BmiBaby737 (Reply 1):
with over 7,000 photos waiting! Earlier this year it went down to 4,000 and there a huge hype over it, but they didn't manage to keep it that level!

I couldn't care less how long it takes to get my photos screened. A week is fine for me. Its going to be interesting this summer however. With the 'Q' at well over 7G now, imagine what it will be like in July/August!?!?

 boggled 
 
graphic
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RE: Well, Now That The Queue Limit Has Been Lowered

Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:35 am

Quoting EDDL (Reply 2):
Actually I really appreciate if a screener leaves a personal message explaining a rejection.

That would be fantastic! It only takes 2 seconds to do, in fact...
Demand Media fails at life
 
Rotate
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RE: Well, Now That The Queue Limit Has Been Lowered

Mon Apr 23, 2007 4:17 pm

Quoting Maiznblu_757 (Reply 5):
With the 'Q' at well over 7G now, imagine what it will be like in July/August!?!?

What I dont get is that the Q is much higher during summer time than during winter time. I really hate shooting in summertime the light is so much worser than in wintertime - not to mention the heathaze ....

Robin
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jorge1812
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RE: Well, Now That The Queue Limit Has Been Lowered

Mon Apr 23, 2007 5:42 pm

Quoting Rotate (Reply 7):

But it's warmer in summer and more people go out e.g. with the family for spotting and we have more light available during the long summer days. You're right, winter pics are very nice too but I prefer to shoot in 30°C and not in -10°C.

georg
 
spartan13
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RE: Well, Now That The Queue Limit Has Been Lowered

Mon Apr 23, 2007 10:22 pm

Quoting EDDL (Reply 2):
I don't care if I have to wait five days or two weeks to get my pictures screened.

Im with Phil on this. I didnt like when they were uploading photos in the masses after being screened. With smaller amounts of photos it just makes it easier to see them all, so im hoping the screeners continue screening as they are.
Ralph Duenas - Jetwash Images (Charles Barkley said it best "Oklahoma is a vast wasteland")
 
CalgaryBill
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RE: Well, Now That The Queue Limit Has Been Lowered

Mon Apr 23, 2007 11:48 pm

Quoting Maiznblu_757 (Reply 5):
I couldn't care less how long it takes to get my photos screened.

 checkmark 

Quoting Graphic (Reply 6):
That would be fantastic! It only takes 2 seconds to do, in fact...

Realistically, it probably takes 30 seconds to put together an intelligent thought and type it out. If a screener goes through 50 photos per session, that's 25 minutes of their time per session or two hours per week of their personal, volunteer time.

Quoting Jorge1812 (Reply 8):
But it's warmer in summer and more people go out e.g. with the family for spotting and we have more light available during the long summer days.

Don't forget it's airshow season too...

B
 
StevenL
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RE: Well, Now That The Queue Limit Has Been Lowered

Tue Apr 24, 2007 1:54 am

Question for the screeners about the actual process...
How long does it take to screen one photo? Are you looking at a special screen or something?
I just think it would be really interesting if a screener posted something similar to a blog about the step by step process a photo goes through to get accepted, or denied.

Thanks,

Steven L
Nikon D70s. Nikkor 18-70; Nikkor 70-300G; SB-600. KBFI, KSEA, KPAE Spotter
 
CalgaryBill
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RE: Well, Now That The Queue Limit Has Been Lowered

Tue Apr 24, 2007 1:58 am

Quoting StevenL (Reply 11):
I just think it would be really interesting if a screener posted something similar to a blog about the step by step process a photo goes through to get accepted, or denied.

One of them did a few months back including, IIRC screenshots.

B
 
bubbles
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RE: Well, Now That The Queue Limit Has Been Lowere

Tue Apr 24, 2007 2:08 am

Quoting StevenL (Reply 11):

Please check this out.
RE: Screeners View Of The Upload Que (by Deaphen Mar 30 2007 in Aviation Photography)

_Hongyin_
 
graphic
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RE: Well, Now That The Queue Limit Has Been Lowered

Tue Apr 24, 2007 2:14 am

Quoting CalgaryBill (Reply 10):
Realistically, it probably takes 30 seconds to put together an intelligent thought and type it out. If a screener goes through 50 photos per session, that's 25 minutes of their time per session or two hours per week of their personal, volunteer time.

I screen 50 photos a day at a certain brand x, and I don't buy that. If it takes thirty seconds to put together a well-thought out comment on a photo rejection, then you're either A) trying too hard to come up with a rejection reason, or B) the rejection is so obvious its not worth the comment.
Demand Media fails at life
 
Lanas
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RE: Well, Now That The Queue Limit Has Been Lowered

Tue Apr 24, 2007 2:17 am

Quoting CalgaryBill (Reply 10):
Realistically, it probably takes 30 seconds to put together an intelligent thought and type it out. If a screener goes through 50 photos per session, that's 25 minutes of their time per session or two hours per week of their personal, volunteer time.



Quoting Graphic (Reply 6):
That would be fantastic! It only takes 2 seconds to do, in fact...

First, I believe that with the new queue limits, the fact that the screening process is a little more delayed calls my attention. I guess that maybe many people obtained good results with their acceptance ratio and are, therefore, uploading more pics per day. I don´t care how much it takes for the pic to be screened, and I really appreciate the personal comments on rejected pictures. It surely helps a lot when reviewing your edit.
Second, I agree with Graphic where he says that it would take '2 seconds' to add a comment. Actually, I don´t know if it takes as little as 2 seconds, but I think that if you´re screening a pic and you see an important flaw you want to comment on, the idea of what you´re going to write is already in your mind, so I think it doesn´t take a lot of time to pour your thoughts down.

Cheers!  Smile
Lanas.-
"Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens." J.R.R. Tolkien
 
CalgaryBill
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RE: Well, Now That The Queue Limit Has Been Lowere

Tue Apr 24, 2007 2:01 pm

Quoting Lanas (Reply 15):
Second, I agree with Graphic where he says that it would take '2 seconds' to add a comment. Actually, I don´t know if it takes as little as 2 seconds, but I think that if you´re screening a pic and you see an important flaw you want to comment on, the idea of what you´re going to write is already in your mind, so I think it doesn´t take a lot of time to pour your thoughts down.

First off, people think much more cryptically than they speak or write so we actually go through a translation process which takes time, then we have to type it out, which takes even longer since most people type and speak much slower than they can think. So from the time you think "man this is ugly" to the time you type out a single sentence saying "golly, maybe you could brighten this up a bit, sharpen around the wheels and put a smile on the pilot's face" thirty seconds have easily passed. Since the average person types well under 50 words per minute, that line I just typed is almost thirty seconds of typing time for 1/2 the world's computer-using population, even if some of you could bash it out 2 seconds flat.

The whole point of my comment though was that the screeners have enough on their plates as it is. Even a 10 second response is going to be 30-45 minutes of their own personal time lost per week, or it's time they don't spend screening shots, which means they'll then have to spend time reading and defending themselves from the frequent "why is the que so long" threads... kinda like this one started...

B
 
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jid
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RE: Well, Now That The Queue Limit Has Been Lowered

Tue Apr 24, 2007 3:31 pm

Everyone always misses the point on these threads. As a photographer I am not really bothered about the length of the screening process. BUT who do you think looks at all the images you photogs upload? Of course fellow photogs do but that will equate to a very small percentage of viewers. Everyone from Joe Public to Percy Press man views your images and what do you think they want ?? Do they go out in the morning, walk into the newsagents and ask for a 10 day old newspaper? I think not.

Jid
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gkirk
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RE: Well, Now That The Queue Limit Has Been Lowered

Tue Apr 24, 2007 4:37 pm

Quoting BmiBaby737 (Reply 1):
Don't get me wrong, the screeners are a fantastic bunch and they do a marvelous job!

They also tend to go on holiday like normal people  Wink
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
Dahlgardo
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RE: Well, Now That The Queue Limit Has Been Lowered

Tue Apr 24, 2007 4:52 pm

When someone complains about the long screening time, it is often regarded as being disrespectfull against the screeners. I don't think, nor hope, that anyone complains about the quality of the screening process, or the amount of work the screeners do for airliners.net. That would not be fair.

The long screening time may not matter for some of you (and that's just fine), but for others (including me) it makes the whole process of uploading too slow/troublesome, and it basically keeps me from uploading at all. I don't think I'm the only one who see it that way.

For new photogs with very low upload limits, the learning process also becomes unecessarily long.

Don't get me wrong, I think A.net is the best site there is of its kind, and one thing that would make it even better, would be fast screening. No matter how I look at it, the long screening time doesn't help a.net in any way.

So, how can the screening time be lowered ? To me it's very simple : Add more screeners. Why not have enough screeners to cope with the amount uploads at all times ? That would never hurt anyone.

Of course it takes some skills with regard to understanding photo editing and photography in general, but I'm sure there's plenty of potetial amongst the photogs of this site for many new screeners.

Take care, and have a nice summer

br
Jakob
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Psych
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RE: Well, Now That The Queue Limit Has Been Lowered

Tue Apr 24, 2007 8:49 pm

There are many no-win situations about - this is just another of them.

I have always been in agreement with those who argue that a long queue length is not a good thing. For me a couple of days maximum would be ideal. But - as photographers - we all want consistent screening, with more screener input to rejection emails and threads here. If they are doing that they are screening less photos. If screeners are discussing borderline shots and asking each other for second opinions a lot behind the scenes (as many would like them to do) it will slow things down. Wanting more from screeners, and also wanting a fast process, are potentially mutually exclusive demands.

It seems clear that the Head Screeners are not keen to significantly expand the screening team - I think this was said in the good old days when Head Screeners used to be active in the Forum. I guess partly to try to ensure a cohesive team approach from them, but maybe for other reasons too. It is (slightly) easier to get consistent decision making from 25 people than it would be from 50 (with the current system, but that is another debate). Screeners also need to have their own lives outside of A.net, which obviously limits what they - as individuals - can (and should) do here. Also, as a relatively small team, just a few big volume screeners doing less screening for whatever reason will have a disproportionate impact on the queue.

Jid makes a really important point above - if I were Johan (or a Head Screener) I would not be comfortable with the wait that currently exists. I can't see in my time as a member here how the changes to upload limits has really significantly impacted on the overall queue wait. There are definitely a lot less daily uploads, but the queue wait continues to vary somewhere around the week+ length. But there is clearly no appetite to fundamentally re-examine the screening process itself, which might address this issue.

It is a difficult dilemma. The problem here these days is that it has become almost impossible to raise tricky issues such as this with the hope of getting a thorough and sensible two-way discussion. There is simply too much 'us and them' mentality going around, or old timers here feeling fed up with the same old discussions rearing their head, which - in my humble opinion - gets in the way of progress.

All the best.

Paul
 
graphic
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RE: Well, Now That The Queue Limit Has Been Lowered

Wed Apr 25, 2007 3:18 am

Quoting CalgaryBill (Reply 16):
So from the time you think "man this is ugly" to the time you type out a single sentence saying "golly, maybe you could brighten this up a bit, sharpen around the wheels and put a smile on the pilot's face" thirty seconds have easily passed.

As I said above, if your first thought is "man this is ugly," then its a clear reject, and probably not something that needs comment on.
Demand Media fails at life
 
dendrobatid
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RE: Well, Now That The Queue Limit Has Been Lowered

Wed Apr 25, 2007 4:02 am

Quoting Psych (Reply 20):
It is a difficult dilemma. The problem here these days is that it has become almost impossible to raise tricky issues such as this with the hope of getting a thorough and sensible two-way discussion. There is simply too much 'us and them' mentality going around, or old timers here feeling fed up with the same old discussions rearing their head, which - in my humble opinion - gets in the way of progress.

Paul,
You raise some interesting points. The us and them mentality is not something that I subscribe to though I guess that is easy for me since I have moved to being on both sides rather that just the contributor. There is little doubt that there are perennial problems, the queue length and screener consistency being the commonest. I have been around on this forum for quite a while and it is not as lively as it was a couple of years ago but I am pleased to say that screener consistency complaints seem to have reduced dramatically. As to the queue length, I doubt that anyone likes it at this length, I certainly don't. I take Jid's point too but not much that is uploaded is actually news and the newsworthy stuff can still get through and be added quickly.
But as you point out there are other calls on our time. I do my best to identify people who need help and offer to help them out with editing, I do a lot of personals that slow me down too as does coming to the forum. Just a few weeks ago the queue length was around 4000 and yet with no changes at all it is double that. That suggests that the problem is a circumstance (several screeners are away) rather than anything being inherrently (too) wrong.
Mick Bajcar
 
CalgaryBill
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RE: Well, Now That The Queue Limit Has Been Lowered

Wed Apr 25, 2007 4:10 am

Quoting Graphic (Reply 21):
As I said above, if your first thought is "man this is ugly," then its a clear reject, and probably not something that needs comment on.

If people knew that it was a "clear" reject, they wouldn't submit the picture.

B
 
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Bruce
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RE: Well, Now That The Queue Limit Has Been Lowered

Thu Apr 26, 2007 10:21 am

Its been this way for as long as I can remember now (very long queues) and for the life of me i can never seem to understand why. it just never makes sense. You have a pretty good number of Screeners, and there are usually less than 1,000 pics added to the queue each day. If I do the math - each Screener doing 100 pictures (i know, some of you do more...) per day I think the queue should be much lower than it is. No matter which way I try to rationalize it, it doesn't make sense. The time needed to get a picture on here should not have to be this high. If a picture has a minor flaw then it could easily take a month to make 2 trips thru the queue.

And no, I dont think the queue limit has had an effect on the wait time.

Summer (and air show season) is coming fast.....the queue is only going to get worse if nothing is done!

bruce
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Chukcha
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RE: Well, Now That The Queue Limit Has Been Lowere

Thu Apr 26, 2007 11:09 am

Quoting Bruce (Reply 24):
No matter which way I try to rationalize it, it doesn't make sense.

I think the way to rationalize it would be to acknowledge that the screeners have lives, too. What I mean to say is that it requires a lot of commitment to take up a screener job; people do it thinking that they can afford spending all that time in front of the computer. However, as I know from my own experience, the life around you doesn't stop when you do your hobby; life still goes on, and you may end up getting behind on other things. Sooner or later you'll have to catch up...

I would expect some people to say, "Let them fire slow screeners and hire new ones." This was said before numerous times, but I don't believe that would be a good Idea, because the new screeners would have jobs and families as well, and in the end they would have to take time off now and then, too.

To sum it all up, I'd say, we should just exercise a little patience. These people are pure enthusiasts, they don't get paid for what they do, and you wouldn't want to see them losing their jobs or getting a divorce because of their hobby, right ?

Cheers,
Andrei

[Edited 2007-04-26 04:32:12]
 
prat
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RE: Well, Now That The Queue Limit Has Been Lowered

Thu Apr 26, 2007 12:09 pm

Quoting CalgaryBill (Reply 23):
If people knew that it was a "clear" reject, they wouldn't submit the picture.

Maybe an option tick for the screeners should be a "fix and reupload" of sorts. So when a photo rejection was given for example, you'd get LEVEL, OVERSHARPENED, REUPLOAD or something along those lines, so that a photographer can see the full spectrum of problems with the photo, but know that it's fixable and worth another shot. Might curb people from trying to fix shots that simply aren't A.net standards, and thus lower the queue slightly.
 
dendrobatid
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RE: Well, Now That The Queue Limit Has Been Lowered

Thu Apr 26, 2007 3:19 pm

Quoting Bruce (Reply 24):
If I do the math - each Screener doing 100 pictures (i know, some of you do more...) per day I think the queue should be much lower than it is.

Bruce
If you do some maths, at an average of about a minute each that is a little over 1 1/2 hours per day. Yes some screeners do more than that but I rarely find time to do 100 a day. Our target is actually to average about 50 per day and I am running well above that but a few days of holiday and it soon plummets. I spend plenty of time screening, more than my Wife likes, and run at about 2000 per month. As Psych points out above the queue gets badly hit by a high volume screener or two being away and that is the situation at the moment.
I re-iterate.....

Just a few weeks ago the queue length was around 4000 and yet with no changes at all it is double that. That suggests that the problem is a circumstance (several screeners are away) rather than anything being inherrently (too) wrong.[/quote]
Mick Bajcar
 
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RE: Well, Now That The Queue Limit Has Been Lowered

Thu Apr 26, 2007 3:39 pm

Quoting Chukcha (Reply 25):
I would expect some people to say, "Let them fire slow screeners and hire new ones."

Thats what they have done according to them :

the Head Screeners have replaced ineffective and/or unproductive screeners

Source: Queue Below 4,000 (by Clickhappy Mar 1 2007 in Aviation Photography)
-
 
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walter2222
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RE: Well, Now That The Queue Limit Has Been Lowered

Thu Apr 26, 2007 6:05 pm

Quoting Chukcha (Reply 25):
To sum it all up, I'd say, we should just exercise a little patience. These people are pure enthusiasts, they don't get paid for what they do, and you wouldn't want to see them losing their jobs or getting a divorce because of their hobby, right ?

 checkmark 

Personally, I don't mind to wait a week, two weeks or even a month to have a picture screened. My slides have been stored for more than 30 years, and only now have I started to scan (some of) them. While I am getting very good advice from several forum members and Mick, it takes a hell of a time to find the correct "info" related to a slide before being able to upload. So, according to me, it does not matter whether the picture gets uploaded 10000 days after the shot was taken or 10010 days after the shot was taken (even if it was a rare one)  Smile

I know, many would argue, this is only applicable for old slides, but for me this is true for each shot which has no real news value (they can be uploaded via the priority channel). Let's be honest, when we are attending airshows during the season, we all come up with roughly "identical" shots. The only real reason why uploaders would like a shorter queue, is to get their own shot uploaded amongst the first (and thus receiving more possible hits), because the visitors of this site might get bored as well after seeing 100 or more identical shots of the same aircraft from the same location... I admit, I am guilty as well  Smile , although I try to upload shots which are different from what is already in the database, I also try to upload - sometimes - shots which are almost identical to the ones that other photographers have already uploaded. So, I understand that people want their own shot in the database, because I do too,... but this is part of the long queue as well (and I guess that is why there is the "common" rejection).

Just my thoughts

Quoting Psych (Reply 20):
If screeners are discussing borderline shots and asking each other for second opinions a lot behind the scenes (as many would like them to do) it will slow things down. Wanting more from screeners, and also wanting a fast process, are potentially mutually exclusive demands.

 checkmark 


Indeed, a personal note might not take more than 30 seconds or a minute, but my experience is that once you start into a conversation about how to improve a picture and to make it acceptable, it might take much longer! Sometimes it envolves also exchange of files and edits (as Paul, Thierry and Mick have done for me) with thorough explanation on how to improve (and writing such e-mails take much longer than a minute).

PS: (a little bit off-topic) On the other hand, I have also had questions - through comments to my uploaded shots - about the scanning process, and I have also spend time to share this "knowledge" with others. I do think it is important to share this knowledge and to convince other avaition enthousiasts to start uploading because I am sure that there is still a wealth of old pictures/slides which have not been made available to the internet-community yet (I assume there are enough "witnesses" of current activities in aerospace/aviation, so that these moments are properly recorded, but I am also sure that there are still a lot of "holes" in aviation history, which have not yet been covered here...)


Best regards,

Walter
Canon 347d mkII ;-) - EFS10-22mm f/3.5-4.5 USM - EFS18-55mm - EF28-105mm f3.5/4.5 - EF100-400mm f4.5-5.6l IS USM - ...
 
LIPH
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RE: Well, Now That The Queue Limit Has Been Lowere

Thu Apr 26, 2007 6:46 pm

Quoting Psych (Reply 20):
It seems clear that the Head Screeners are not keen to significantly expand the screening team



Quoting Dendrobatid (Reply 22):
That suggests that the problem is a circumstance (several screeners are away) rather than anything being inherrently (too) wrong.

I miss the point here. This issue of not expanding the screening team has always been a riddle for me...I mean, what would be wrong with that ?

Ciao

[Edited 2007-04-26 11:49:43]
Life sucks. Then you die. Live fast, die young.
 
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ptrjong
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RE: Well, Now That The Queue Limit Has Been Lowered

Thu Apr 26, 2007 7:42 pm

Quoting LIPH (Reply 30):
I mean, what would be wrong with that ?

A small organization is easier to manage. And the more screeners, the more treads about inconsistent screening there will be Smile
The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
 
LIPH
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RE: Well, Now That The Queue Limit Has Been Lowere

Thu Apr 26, 2007 9:15 pm

Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 31):
A small organization is easier to manage. And the more screeners, the more treads about inconsistent screening there will be

Peter,
here you point out another important issue : screening inconcistency. But I think that if the rules would be applied strictly, and less in a motivewise manner, this should not be the problem. If this happen that means that the rules are not that clear and definite. This create confusion over rejections.
Take also into consideration that the number of photographers will increase with time, and so the uploads. Soon a queue of 8 thousand shots will be a normal thing, and 8/10 days of queue as well.

Ciao

[Edited 2007-04-26 14:16:30]
Life sucks. Then you die. Live fast, die young.
 
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ptrjong
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RE: Well, Now That The Queue Limit Has Been Lowered

Thu Apr 26, 2007 10:04 pm

Quoting LIPH (Reply 32):

You simply can't make strict rules for most of the upload criteria. Screening is human, and thus, when the team is much enlaged, inconsistency will be a problem.
Also, there's probably a lack of suitable and willing candidates. Anyway, the size of the team is really a matter that is Johan's, because he has to work with the team, not us.

I like it too when screening takes only a handful of days. When the queue creeps up too much, I'm sure something will be done about it. I'd be happy to sacrifice 10 upload slots for a shorter queue, in order to limit so-calld "serial uploading".
However, the average number of photos a photographer has in the queue is only 4.5. If there are still a lot of really crap pictures being uploaded, perhaps the limit for new photographers can be brought back to 1, until they send in something that is showing some remote promise.

Peter Smile
The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
 
EK20
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RE: Well, Now That The Queue Limit Has Been Lowered

Fri Apr 27, 2007 1:12 am

Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 33):
there's probably a lack of suitable and willing candidates

Er...didn't something like 125 people apply last time there was a job going?
 
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ptrjong
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RE: Well, Now That The Queue Limit Has Been Lowered

Fri Apr 27, 2007 1:23 am

Quoting EK20 (Reply 34):

You may have a point. I don't know how many were both serious and considered suitable, though.
The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)

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