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ThierryD
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What's Wrong With This Motive?

Sat Jul 14, 2007 10:51 pm

Has the era of helpful personal messages already gone again!?  Confused

Got this one rejected for motive:
http://www.airliners.net/addphotos/r...s/big/20070714_vtjebLFPB230607.jpg
not sure what's wrong with it though; without wanting to brag and trying to stay as objective as possible I do believe that it's one of the better and most interesting shots uploaded from the Paris Air Show 2007 so far.

Thierry
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opso1
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RE: What's Wrong With This Motive?

Sat Jul 14, 2007 11:32 pm

I like it- it is a good reference photo- something different from the usual 6 of the same taken by a line of photographers as an aircraft leaves the runway. Cutting off the nosewheel doors didn't help and you can see from the Air France banner at the bottom left that it need a little CW rotation.

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RE: What's Wrong With This Motive?

Sun Jul 15, 2007 12:32 am

I think it is the nosewheel doors as well.
-Matt
 
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RE: What's Wrong With This Motive?

Sun Jul 15, 2007 12:52 am

Quoting Opso1 (Reply 1):
Cutting off the nosewheel doors didn't help



Quoting WakeTurbulence (Reply 2):
I think it is the nosewheel doors as well.

Well, I thought that at times where pictures get accepted where half of the aircraft is obstructed by a crowd of people some cut nose gear doors would be ok if it helps to get a closer close-up.

Quoting Opso1 (Reply 1):
you can see from the Air France banner at the bottom left that it need a little CW rotation.

It's just optical distortion.

Thierry
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RE: What's Wrong With This Motive?

Sun Jul 15, 2007 2:16 am

Hello

Quoting ThierryD (Thread starter):
Has the era of helpful personal messages already gone again!?

Nope, as I can see someone give you a personal message on another rejection you had today.

Regards

Gary
 
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RE: What's Wrong With This Motive?

Sun Jul 15, 2007 2:28 am

Quoting Granite (Reply 4):
Nope, as I can see someone give you a personal message on another rejection you had today.

Yep, but that was only after I posted the thread and additionally the message sadly never made it to my mailbox (the rejection mail itself did though  Confused )
Apart from that, Gary, I'd rather known your opinion about the subject of the thread.

Thierry
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RE: What's Wrong With This Motive?

Sun Jul 15, 2007 2:53 am

Would have been motive for me too, the crop just doesnt work, better include the gear.

Tim
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RE: What's Wrong With This Motive?

Sun Jul 15, 2007 5:49 am

Quoting TimdeGroot (Reply 6):
Would have been motive for me too, the crop just doesnt work, better include the gear.

With the gear included it wouldn't give that "right-into-your-face" look I wanted to have so that's not an option for me.
However, let me state here that, as already mentionned above, accepting pictures (as it has happened very recently) where half of the aircraft is covered by a crowd of people and thus 100% goes against a major rule of this site is driving this whole motive issue ad absurdum.  Yeah sure

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RE: What's Wrong With This Motive?

Sun Jul 15, 2007 6:14 am

Quoting ThierryD (Reply 7):
where half of the aircraft is covered by a crowd of people and thus 100% goes against a major rule of this site

Not to disrespect the photographer, but I've been wondering why that shot was accepted aswell.

Btw, I just thought of the fact that Thierry might have meant the unveiling of the 787 shot by Royal, but I was thinking of the Taiwan Air Force fighter. In the caption it said it was "a historic event".
What was so historic about it?

[Edited 2007-07-14 23:15:00]
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RE: What's Wrong With This Motive?

Sun Jul 15, 2007 7:34 am

I personally feel that crowds add to overall motive of a photo... It really does show the enthusiasm people have for aviation, which is what our hobby is all about.

Quoting AirKas1 (Reply 8):
What was so historic about it?

It looks like this wording was either a mistranslation issue, or perhaps, the photographer felt it was truly historic for his country. This was a military exercise by Taiwan to prepare for an attack by the Chinese, which they feel might be coming soon. Here's a full article:
http://defensenews.com/story.php?F=2749088&C=asiapac

Thierry, I think the motive would have been better if you had cut the gear doors out completely. But even so, the glare on the window is very distracting, and detracts from the shot quite a bit IMO.

-Mike
 
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RE: What's Wrong With This Motive?

Sun Jul 15, 2007 8:55 am

You cut off half the gear doors
Think Different
 
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RE: What's Wrong With This Motive?

Sun Jul 15, 2007 12:57 pm

Quoting ThierryD (Reply 7):
With the gear included it wouldn't give that "right-into-your-face" look I wanted to have so that's not an option for me.

It does look nice like that but maybe you have a similar shot like this that at least has the doors included but not the nose wheel?

DM
 
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RE: What's Wrong With This Motive?

Sun Jul 15, 2007 5:29 pm

Taken from your guide

This is the most subjective rejection reason, sometimes simply that a photograph does not balance well, an unusual crop or similar. This rejection also occurs at times when a photographer tries something new but the screeners do not feel that the final image has been successful. Reasons (or excuses) for any such failure are not important, only the final image is considered.

These are wise words (I wrote them) Big grin
The rejected image is not a bad one but the crop is awkward. I think the mistake was made at the taking rather than editing stage and a portrait shot would have worked so much better by remving the Air France hangar and showing more of the aircraft.
Then it would have really been 'in your face' and powerful.
Fill the frame for impact !
Helpful personals are here to stay but we cannot do them for every image !

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RE: What's Wrong With This Motive?

Sun Jul 15, 2007 6:18 pm

Quoting AirKas1 (Reply 8):
Btw, I just thought of the fact that Thierry might have meant the unveiling of the 787 shot by
Royal, but I was thinking of the Taiwan Air Force fighter. In the caption it said it was "a historic event".



Quoting Scottieprecord (Reply 9):
I personally feel that crowds add to overall motive of a photo... It really does show the enthusiasm people have for aviation, which is what our hobby is all about.

 checkmark 
I was indeed talking about the Mirage shot as I can understand to a certain point the acceptance of Royal's 787 shot; and don't get me wrong I like the Mirage shot as it's a great action shot but so are hundreds of other photos that will never make it to the A.net db because they clearly infringe one or another accetpance rule.
The thing about it is that I, and many other uploaders for that matter, don't understand why so much freedom is given to some shots concerning motive and then again so less to others.

Then I'll have to quote the words of a wise (and thus probably also pretty old man  old   Wink):


Quoting Dendrobatid (Reply 12):
This rejection also occurs at times when a photographer tries something new but the screeners do not feel that the final image has been successful.

... but Mick, aren't we all a little different and maybe many other people like the shot just as it is.
And as I posted in this thread: Reject For Motive Is To Vague. (by Xiphias Jul 11 2007 in Aviation Photography) I'd really like some more freedom from the screeners (A.net) when it comes to motive.

Thierry
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RE: What's Wrong With This Motive?

Sun Jul 15, 2007 6:23 pm

Hi Thierry

I don't think the crop works, either. And have you been using S/H to this shot?

_Hongyin_
 
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RE: What's Wrong With This Motive?

Sun Jul 15, 2007 6:53 pm

Quoting Bubbles (Reply 14):
I don't think the crop works, either.

Hi Hongyin!
Ok, just to get an idea and for my own understanding (after all I've an IGRR to fill  Wink): is this any better for A.net, except for the fact that I'd now get a size rejection:
Big version: Width: 1025 Height: 800 File size: 288kb
Other crop
? I know the doors are still slightly cut but the shot just doesn't work for me with them completely included.

Quoting Bubbles (Reply 14):
And have you been using S/H to this shot?

slightly

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RE: What's Wrong With This Motive?

Sun Jul 15, 2007 7:17 pm

Hi Thierry

I still don't really like this crop.

Quoting ThierryD (Reply 15):
slightly

Well, for the rejected shot, even "slightly" S/H used is still quite visible.  Smile

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RE: What's Wrong With This Motive?

Sun Jul 15, 2007 7:34 pm

Quoting Bubbles (Reply 16):
I still don't really like this crop.

That's probably becasue you're a distance shooter and seeing a plane that close-up just scares you; a natural instinct!  Wink Like a sniper thrown into close combat. Nothing one couldn't get accustomed to though; just give it a try!

Quoting Bubbles (Reply 16):
even "slightly" S/H used is still quite visible.

could you elaborate that please!?

Thierry
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RE: What's Wrong With This Motive?

Sun Jul 15, 2007 10:56 pm

The composition in this one makes it look strange. I agree 100% about motive rejection. It is too heavy on the right side, looks like it could flip over any second.

/ Jacob
 
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RE: What's Wrong With This Motive?

Sun Jul 15, 2007 11:57 pm

Hi all

Quoting ThierryD (Reply 15):
is this any better for A.net

Nope, that crop is more awkward tha the first. Maybe best for your own personal collection.

Regards

Gary
 
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RE: What's Wrong With This Motive?

Mon Jul 16, 2007 12:06 am

Hi all

Quoting ThierryD (Reply 17):
could you elaborate that please!?

Photoshop 'Shadow/Highlight' took.

Regards

Gary
 
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RE: What's Wrong With This Motive?

Mon Jul 16, 2007 12:28 am

Quoting ThierryD (Reply 17):
could you elaborate that please!?

has been elaborated; Thanks Hongyin!

Quoting Granite (Reply 19):
Nope, that crop is more awkward tha the first.

see that's why I cropped it as tight as I did; it just looks better that way.

Quoting Granite (Reply 19):
Maybe best for your own personal collection.

Yep, apparently A.net isn't yet ready for such nice close-ups!  Wink


On the other hand no screener has yet expressed himself about the general motive freedom; any thoughts?

Thierry
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RE: What's Wrong With This Motive?

Mon Jul 16, 2007 1:55 am

Do you think you might be able to post the original image so we can see what it looked like?

DM
 
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RE: What's Wrong With This Motive?

Mon Jul 16, 2007 3:01 am

Quoting ThierryD (Reply 21):
motive freedom; any thoughts

I've been thinking about this lately. Motive is without doubt the reject reason a screener can use if a photo does not feel "right". I've seen threads where a photographer had a motive rejection, suspects it is because of, say, cutoff gear doors, and then displays a couple of accepted pics with the same cutoff gear doors. So far every accepted photo I have seen in this kind of threads have looked well-balanced and "right" but the rejected photo didn't. I guess this is really hard to see in our own photos, much harder than oversharpening or unlevel.

I sometimes find it funny that participating photographers on A.net needs detailed written instructions for how a photo is to be performed in every aspect. Sometimes I think the overall "feeling" is much more important and almost impossible to document in writing.

/ Jacob

[Edited 2007-07-15 20:03:04]
 
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RE: What's Wrong With This Motive?

Mon Jul 16, 2007 5:17 pm

Quoting DM (Reply 22):
Do you think you might be able to post the original image so we can see what it looked like?

Well, it looks just like the processed shot...

Quoting Jajo (Reply 23):
Sometimes I think the overall "feeling" is much more important and almost impossible to document in writing.

Agreed! But then as we are individual beings we have individual feelings and what feels right to some doesn't necessarily feel right to others. That being said I still feel the B777 shot is a nice motive but sadly I couldn't convince the screeners of that; that's not the 1st time and surely won't be the last and I can easily live with that. However as a general note I do believe that uploaders should be given more freedom concerning motive as this rejection is IMO too subjective to be dumped by (in the worst case) a single screener who doesn't have the feeling for it. Because who says that the 200000 daily visitors won't like it!?
For instance I'd easily take a bet that the 777 would get at least 2500 views on the first day at that would then already be 100x more people than there are screeners.

Maybe worth a thought...!?

Thierry
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RE: What's Wrong With This Motive?

Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:05 pm

Quoting ThierryD (Reply 24):
Agreed! But then as we are individual beings we have individual feelings and what feels right to some doesn't necessarily feel right to others.

Very interesting discussion coming up here.

From a technical point of view I think your shot looks good, but motive-wise it feels odd. I believe some other people in this thread has pointed at this, not just the screener who rejected it.

There are rules of composition and general photographic methods to make a shot look balanced and "right" - this is not really about individual feelings or personal preference. I know aviation photography differs from standard photography in many ways (just look at the "centering" rejection...) but in the motive aspect I believe there are many similarities. I didn't start my photography interest through aviation, I started with a cheap film camera shooting other things than airplanes. In standard photography sharpness, level, centering and color is not at all important - almost everything is about the motive. I believe the first thing that should be done is to take a well-composed shot straight in camera. In post processing, before even thinking about sharpening, level or centering, just look at the photo and feel - is it comfortable to watch? Does the composition highlight the aircraft or are the eyes nervously looking for something to rest on? If it looks good - crop. Then the rest.

/ Jacob
 
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RE: What's Wrong With This Motive?

Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:16 pm

Quoting Jajo (Reply 23):
I sometimes find it funny that participating photographers on A.net needs detailed written instructions for how a photo is to be performed in every aspect. Sometimes I think the overall "feeling" is much more important and almost impossible to document in writing.

What a great attitude, what a great response. It sums up motive beautifully.

Thierry,
I have not looked to see how many screeners saw that image before it was rejected. I certainly did not but would have rejected it and you have had comments from at least four screeners here, none of whom supported it. I continue to take photographs that I like for myself, if I like them, I am happy.
Screening is about selecting what is required for the site. What else is there, upload everything and dump what is not popular ?
No, the system is not bad as it is, not perfect, but not bad - we just happen to disagree on this one and I explained my reasons above.
I find it very difficult to be totally impartial about my own shots too.....which is why I ( and we screeners )still get rejections.
Mick Bajcar
 
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RE: What's Wrong With This Motive?

Mon Jul 16, 2007 9:15 pm

Quoting Jajo (Reply 25):
Very interesting discussion coming up here. ... Then the rest.

Absolutely agree on all that Jacob, but then we know that standard photography rules often can't be used for A.net as its own stringent rules will deny them (i.e. 2/3 rules vs centering).
I sometimes get the feeling, that due to the huge amount of photos the screeners have to cope with that they fall into a certain think pattern for judging photos and if a photo (even if it's a perfectly nice one) doesn't fit into that pattern it gets rejected. This pattern is certainly necessary to handle the huge number of photos but could prove deadly for "alternative" photos. That's why I'd like more freedom for motives so that it will be easier to overcome that pattern.
Let's take for instance the B747 nightshot I linked to in Reply 13: I showed that photo to several people (photographers included); they all really liked that dynamic motive but it was/is a no-go for the screeners.

Quoting Dendrobatid (Reply 26):
I continue to take photographs that I like for myself, if I like them, I am happy

My thoughts exactly, but then it is a little sad when you can't share your photo due to the sole motive rejection. Cause if you're happy with a shot there's gotta be something to it that most probably many other people will like as well even if the screeners don't for whatever reason.

Quoting Dendrobatid (Reply 26):
Screening is about selecting what is required for the site.

Absolutely true and you're all doing a great job lately but how strictly must one really set the limits on motives that are required by the site? To come back to that Mirage shot; it was accepted despite it going against a major upload rule and there surely was a reason for that; why not stretch the motive rules more often and favor the uploaders that they know what they want to show the viewers?

Quoting Dendrobatid (Reply 26):
No, the system is not bad as it is, not perfect, but not bad - we just happen to disagree on this one and I explained my reasons above.

You said it and why not try to bring it closer to perfection? The disagreement on the B777 was only the trigger that made me launch that whole discussion; in fact it's been on my mind for quite some time now already.

I'm not saying that my idea is fool-proof but since the screening process is working quite well at the moment I thought it would be time to launch a new challenge.  Wink

Thierry
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RE: What's Wrong With This Motive?

Mon Jul 16, 2007 9:34 pm

Quoting ThierryD (Reply 27):
why not stretch the motive rules more often and favor the uploaders that they know what they want to show the viewers?

We all refer to the upload rules when they are in fact guidelines and we screen within those guidelines. We accept that they are pretty stringent though only dirt and borders are really rigorously applied. A balance of quality and of rarity has to be applied. Now, go and look at every single image that was added yesterday or any other day at random and you will find plenty that have been accepted outside those guidelines, we do it all the time.
I just happen to not like the one that started this thread, something that at least one other screener agrees with me on.
Mick Bajcar
 
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RE: What's Wrong With This Motive?

Mon Jul 16, 2007 9:53 pm

Quoting Dendrobatid (Reply 28):
Now, go and look at every single image that was added yesterday or any other day at random and you will find plenty that have been accepted outside those guidelines, we do it all the time.

Never pretended anything else but I do think that there are still a lot of nice motives (and I'm not just talking about own ones) not getting into the db, so why not widen the motive guidelines a little further?

Quoting Dendrobatid (Reply 28):
We all refer to the upload rules when they are in fact guidelines and we screen within those guidelines. We accept that they are pretty stringent though only dirt and borders are really rigorously applied. A balance of quality and of rarity has to be applied.

Mick, do you mind me using that in the IGRR? Another wise sentence of a wise man!  Wink

Thierry
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RE: What's Wrong With This Motive?

Mon Jul 16, 2007 9:56 pm

Quoting ThierryD (Reply 24):
Because who says that the 200000 daily visitors won't like it!?

For all its worth I'm one of those that would defiantly like the shot.
Its a shot that almost hits you in the face a bit of fresh air so to speak.
A loss to the site but thanks for sharing.
Cheers
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RE: What's Wrong With This Motive?

Tue Jul 17, 2007 8:36 pm

A very good recent example of a photo that feels right-into-the-face but with better balance thanks to a better angle:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Piotr Zdunek



/ Jacob
 
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RE: What's Wrong With This Motive?

Wed Jul 18, 2007 7:23 am

Quoting JumboJim747 (Reply 30):
Its a shot that almost hits you in the face a bit of fresh air so to speak.

Exactly my thoughts!

Quoting Jajo (Reply 31):
A very good recent example of a photo that feels right-into-the-face but with better balance thanks to a better angle:

Another angle, yes, a better angle, well that lies in the eye of the beholder.

Thierry
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