JakTrax
Topic Author
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A.net Recovering/recovered?

Tue Aug 05, 2008 7:07 pm

I know we still all encounter minor bugs from time-to-time which is rather irritating but I think the top brass at A.net must've listened recently as things seem to have improved lately. Things have been shifted and changed slightly on the front page and in the options menus - subtle changes but monumental for ease of navigation - and I've also noticed that view numbers appear to be recoverning to something like what they were six months or so ago.

Maybe there's still a way to go yet to bring back everyone's faith but I think we're well past the half-way mark here. I'm not sure if absent photographers will return but my will to upload has returned recently; and I'm seeing some great work from new photog's (I'm actually relatively new, only having been uploading for just over 12 months) who obviously have the potential to be just as good as the big-shots.

Like someone said before, today's elite may leave but there are plenty more budding and enthusiastic young photog's out there who are ready and willing to rise to the challenge!

Congrat's to the A.net team - let's just hope DM feel the same way about supporting the site.

Karl
 
codeshare
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RE: A.net Recovering/recovered?

Tue Aug 05, 2008 7:31 pm

Looks like the views are slowly getting back to normal. I haven't uploaded for a month and the queue is the same to me.

KS/codeshare
How much A is there is Airliners Net ? 0 or nothing ?
 
aero145
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RE: A.net Recovering/recovered?

Tue Aug 05, 2008 8:13 pm



Quoting JakTrax (Thread starter):
A.net Recovering/recovered?

Hmm, top of the last 24 hours with just over 1,000 views.

Recovered? Not IMO.
 
TransIsland
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RE: A.net Recovering/recovered?

Tue Aug 05, 2008 8:40 pm



Quoting Aero145 (Reply 2):
Recovered? Not IMO.

 checkmark 

And I still run into all the bugs that bugged me...

- photo ratings don't work
- adding images to albums is tedious, because a.net keeps telling me I'm not logged in
- adding members to RU list impossible
- frequent "no photo with this ID" messages
- "nice try, hacker"
I'm an aviation expert. I have Sky Juice for breakfast.
 
JakTrax
Topic Author
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RE: A.net Recovering/recovered?

Wed Aug 06, 2008 12:35 am



Quoting TransIsland (Reply 3):
- photo ratings don't work
- adding images to albums is tedious, because a.net keeps telling me I'm not logged in
- adding members to RU list impossible
- frequent "no photo with this ID" messages
- "nice try, hacker"

When I came up with the thread title I included the question mark to collect YOUR opinions, not necessarily to voice my own. 'Recovering' or 'recovered' leaves the thread open for suggestions and/or debate - I never actually said that A.net had fully recovered but some may think so. I do however think things are slowly on the mend (from what I've seen lately), although the problems you highlight in your post still blight us.

Still, things ain't as bad as when everyone was kicking off on everyone else and we were all threatening each other with this and that. At least some sort of law and order has been restored within the community (whether that's 'cos everyone's pulled their images and left I don't know........).

Let's hope, however slowly, that things continue to improve as of late.

Karl
 
QantasA332
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RE: A.net Recovering/recovered?

Wed Aug 06, 2008 1:08 am

Definitely not recovered. I hadn't uploaded at all since DM's big changes, until a couple of photos the other day, and they've reminded me of just how unfortunate the state of A.net remains. And no, I'm not just disappointed by the significantly lower hits. It's a matter of individual exposure, overall coherence and visibility as a gallery of photos which once existed, but certainly hasn't returned post-DM.

I've said this before and I'll say it again: no, bugs are not the problem. Any new site will have such bugs; it's normal, and I really don't mind. The real problem is one of fundamental design. A lot of changes DM made to the front page in particular are fundamentally flawed, and I don't think this site will ever recover from that unless they're reversed.
 
whappeh
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RE: A.net Recovering/recovered?

Wed Aug 06, 2008 1:13 am

The biggest issue to me right now is the queue. I'm getting roughly the same amount of views as I was before, I just want to be able to upload my work faster. This two week stuff is insane.
-Travel now, journey infinitely.
 
Chukcha
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RE: A.net Recovering/recovered?

Wed Aug 06, 2008 1:38 am

Maybe not recovered to its best days, but definitely steadied itself on a somewhat lower plane. As for now, the hits, number of photographers and everyday uploads, and the number of visitors seem to be fairly constant day in and day out. Even the queue - it is not diminishing, but not growing either; apparently, the screening achieved some (happy?) equilibrium... Whether there will be any improvement to all these - remains to be seen.

Andrei
 
TransIsland
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RE: A.net Recovering/recovered?

Wed Aug 06, 2008 1:42 am

actually, the Q seems to have sped up a little, even if the number of images in it remains constant. screening my last bigger batch took 13 days, the ones that got screened today only spent 11 days in the Q.
I'm an aviation expert. I have Sky Juice for breakfast.
 
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jorge1812
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RE: A.net Recovering/recovered?

Wed Aug 06, 2008 2:09 am

Funny, the day when I was thinking that it got worse on Anet I found your thread. A few hours back I wasn't able to view a single image as I always got the "No pic with that ID message" and also the Top24 wasn't loading properly. Adding a photo to an album also needs about 10 clicks b/c I'm not checked in again and again when being checked-in.......

When surfing Anet on such days it doesn't make any fun at all.

georg
 
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jumbojim747
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RE: A.net Recovering/recovered?

Wed Aug 06, 2008 3:25 am



Quoting QantasA332 (Reply 5):
The real problem is one of fundamental design. A lot of changes DM made to the front page in particular are fundamentally flawed

I cauld not have said it any better.
Thats spot on the money but looks like no one wants to do anything about it.
Lets get back to the old layout and see the site get back to its former glory and if we dont i think it will die a slow death.
Cheers
On a wing and a prayer
 
Chukcha
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RE: A.net Recovering/recovered?

Wed Aug 06, 2008 4:38 am



Quoting JumboJim747 (Reply 10):
Lets get back to the old layout and see the site get back to its former glory and if we dont i think it will die a slow death.

There is no return to the old layout, unfortunately... The site may never "get back to its former glory", but it won't die, either, provided the site administration give more upload slots to new photographers. I know one of them; he has just started uploading, very keen, and he doesn't care that the site is different now form what it once been; he just wasn't around it much then. On the other hand, if they fail to do it - the new photographers will just end up at the competitor's site.
 
QantasA332
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RE: A.net Recovering/recovered?

Wed Aug 06, 2008 7:37 am



Quoting Chukcha (Reply 11):
There is no return to the old layout, unfortunately...

Of course. But it's not like this current solution is the end of the road, either. It requires modification for the better, and I feel that modification may, just may, change it back in the direction of the old site to some degree.

Quoting Chukcha (Reply 11):
The site may never "get back to its former glory", but it won't die...

What a sad complacency. Why settle for "not dead" when you could have something really special?


Quoting Chukcha (Reply 11):
...provided the site administration give more upload slots to new photographers. I know one of them; he has just started uploading, very keen, and he doesn't care that the site is different now form what it once been; he just wasn't around it much then. On the other hand, if they fail to do it - the new photographers will just end up at the competitor's site.

I don't follow this argument at all. How will new photographers save the site? What the administration really needs to be thinking about is how to get the veterans back and uploading regularly again.
 
viv
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RE: A.net Recovering/recovered?

Wed Aug 06, 2008 8:34 am



Quoting QantasA332 (Reply 5):
A lot of changes DM made to the front page in particular are fundamentally flawed, and I don't think this site will ever recover from that unless they're reversed.

A very succinct and accurate description of the nub of the problem.

Given DM's mindset which precludes abandoning the new homepage, I fear that finding an equally succinct and accurate remedy will not be so easy ...
Nikon D700, Nikkor 80-400, Fuji X Pro 1, Fujinon 35 f/1.4, Fujinon 18 f/2
 
ZakHH
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RE: A.net Recovering/recovered?

Wed Aug 06, 2008 10:01 am

Quite a few of the recent "improvements" were nothing more than restorations of the former state. The front page logo, to name just one. So the overall state of the site was certainly improved compared to 2-3 months ago. But was it improved to, say, 1 year ago?

The question of how the relationship between user community and site management / administration is defined remains open. There is no vision statement for the site. Site views are on a slow, but constant decrease.

The critical dialogue about the further development of the site has almost died (which is not surprising, as critics were either silenced, ignored or reprimanded as 'handful of constant complainers'), and so have productive suggestions on how to move forward.

Shortly before her leaving, Monique tried to encourage constructive criticism, but during the following discussion, I did not feel that the attitude towards critics had really changed.

The question if a.net will 'recover' (whatever that would mean) is closely linked to the question what visions the site management has in mind, and by what means they will try to transcribe and implement it to the site.

As we don't know that, all we can do is sit back and hope for the best.
Tired of a.net? Join a friendly aviation community!
 
JakTrax
Topic Author
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RE: A.net Recovering/recovered?

Wed Aug 06, 2008 10:54 am



Quoting Chukcha (Reply 11):
I know one of them; he has just started uploading, very keen, and he doesn't care that the site is different now form what it once been; he just wasn't around it much then. On the other hand, if they fail to do it - the new photographers will just end up at the competitor's site

I agree that new photog's have a hard time since the rules changed to allow them only two initial uploads, but wasn't that done under Johan? I don't agree, though, that new photog's will give up on this idea and move to the 'other side'. I am relatively new here and I too was only allowed the poxy two uploads, however it sent a message to me that I'd better learn fast and make sure my images were screener-proof. It motivated me to upload more and more until I could get to the point where I could stick 20 in the queue without hassle. It's kind of like a reward that gets bigger and more prestigious as your upload quality increases.

Quoting QantasA332 (Reply 12):
I don't follow this argument at all. How will new photographers save the site? What the administration really needs to be thinking about is how to get the veterans back and uploading regularly again

New photog's will save the site in the same way as veterans. Can we say with any certainty that the veterans here are miles better than the new folks? Maybe the veterans have more experience but that at least means the new kids have the potential to be as good, if not better. I dare say there are already some new guys here making big impressions. This site needs new blood, and new blood should be welcomed by all - especially the veterens who they will learn from and eventually replace.

No, the site has definately NOT recovered, but I think it has taken small steps this past few months towards a recovery. I remember a month or so ago the 'other' site was getting more hits per image than here (similar images), but again it's mainly the other way round now.

Karl
 
Chukcha
Posts: 2019
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RE: A.net Recovering/recovered?

Wed Aug 06, 2008 3:47 pm



Quoting QantasA332 (Reply 12):
What a sad complacency.

It is not complacency; more like lack of optimism, based on experience. Unfortunately, for A.net now it is not about being "something really special", it is about survival.

Quoting QantasA332 (Reply 12):
How will new photographers save the site? What the administration really needs to be thinking about is how to get the veterans back and uploading regularly again.

The veterans have been leaving the site as long as I can remember, for various reasons; it hasn't just first started under DM. Have you seen many of then return?

Where there is an outflow, there should be an influx as well. The site will always be loosing photographers for one reason or another; it should be acquiring new ones to replace them. No photographers = no A.net, simple as that.

Quoting JakTrax (Reply 15):
the rules changed to allow them only two initial uploads, but wasn't that done under Johan?

The site under Johan could afford it - it's stature and reputation was much higher then, and the other site was regarded by many as second rate. Now it is swiftly catching up; they have a lot to offer, including 20 slots for a new photographer versus 2 here.
 
JakTrax
Topic Author
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RE: A.net Recovering/recovered?

Wed Aug 06, 2008 4:19 pm



Quoting Chukcha (Reply 16):
Now it is swiftly catching up; they have a lot to offer, including 20 slots for a new photographer versus 2 here.

I agree the 'dark side' is catching up but maybe the queue limit of two for new folks is an indication of the supreme quality demanded by this site compared to others. I think it motivates people to really make their photo's the best, and to get acceptances here is still probably a prestige; something that many consider only the so-called 'elite' can manage. I think this site is slipping for the veterans but is an inspiration to the newbies - it sets a precedent for them. The two-queue limit also prevents over-enthusiasm, whereby an individual will hit his maximum limit within half-an-hour, only to face great disappointment a week or so later when he gets the whole lot rejected. It also promotes taking care in both capturing the image and editing it, and will lead to people pre-screening their images to a much more detailed degree. I started with the two-queue limit and as I say, it lead me to be more careful. It also made me really want to do my best to get accpetances here.

The overall quality of images on the 'other' site isn't yet up to A.net standards (don't mean to sound funny but that's my opinion) so it's not surprising that many want that 'prestige' of displaying their photo's here, alongside the work of very best.

If this site doesn't continue its recovery with haste it simply won't ever recover, and the 'dark side' will inevitably overtake.

Karl
 
SFO2SVO
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RE: A.net Recovering/recovered?

Wed Aug 06, 2008 6:08 pm

Most of the threads on "a.net is doomed" or "a.net is back" seem to look at the big picture. I think there are three fairly distinct areas where people see problems. Sure, they are connected - but I would separate discussions into:

- technical bugs
- long queue/few slots
- DM site management policies/purge of old crew and forum contributors

I do see improvements with at least first two.

BTW, Karl, you should be entitled for "A.net founder" seal since you are "First Class since December 31, 1969"   Big grin

[Edited 2008-08-06 11:10:00]
318-19-20-21 332 343 717 727 737-234578 743-4 752 763 772 D9/10 M11/8x/90 F70 RJ85 ATR72 SF340 E120 TU34/54 IL18/62/86/9
 
opso1
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RE: A.net Recovering/recovered?

Wed Aug 06, 2008 6:18 pm

The only thing IMHO that needs sorting now is the queue length- 2 weeks is too long to wait. No-one can ever find this acceptable, so don't say you do! Everyone has worked hard to solve most of the bugs now, but there is still a long way to go so let's get back to normality soon by screening...

OPSO1
 
dendrobatid
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RE: A.net Recovering/recovered?

Wed Aug 06, 2008 7:25 pm



Quoting Opso1 (Reply 20):
The only thing IMHO that needs sorting now is the queue length- 2 weeks is too long to wait.

Absolutely true.
It is the holiday season for us too and quite a few screeners have been away.
The queue length is now the biggest problem though I think that will start to decrease shortly.
But then, just watch the uploads increase too !

Mick Bajcar
 
JakTrax
Topic Author
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RE: A.net Recovering/recovered?

Wed Aug 06, 2008 7:45 pm

Yeah, the queue is off-putting but I don't think it's THE major issue; although I understand that for the new guys only allocated two upload slots two weeks must seem a bit of a p*ss-take.

I think that's the only issue affecting talented new photog's, however I'm sure their enthusiasm will overcome the hurdle. Would benefit everyone though, veteran and beginner alike, if the queue was shortened.

Karl
 
Chukcha
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Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2006 10:57 am

RE: A.net Recovering/recovered?

Thu Aug 07, 2008 12:57 am



Quoting Opso1 (Reply 19):
The only thing IMHO that needs sorting now is the queue length- 2 weeks is too long to wait.

You are right - if the turnover was only a couple of days, even the 2 slots limit wouldn't be a problem. But.....

Quoting Dendrobatid (Reply 20):
But then, just watch the uploads increase too

Exactly right. Mick, if you read one of my posts above, you might have noticed that I used the word "equilibrium". What I meant was the balance between the number of uploads versus the screeners' productivity. We all have seen the "big cleanups", when the queue length went down dramatically to only a couple of days, but, with the more slots available, the everyday uploads doubled or eved tripled. For a while, the screeners would struggle withe the larger number, but eventually the queue would creep up again until the uploads would reach a comfortable (for the screeners) number. For a couple of weeks now, we see the uploads hover around 600, and the queue stopped growing. That basically means that at present time the screening productivity is about 600 a day. The rate of uploads equals the rate of screening, and that's "equilibrium".

To keep the queue two or three days short, the screeners would have to screen about 1,000-1,500 pictures a day. But then, the queue would start creeping up again, as the quicker turnover would attract more photographers, and the existing new photographers would get more slots through having more pictures in the DB. A bit of a "vicious circle", really. I think, in the end it would work out roughly like this: the double increase in screeners productivity would cut the queue length, time-wise, by maybe only a third or even a quarter.

Andrei
 
SNATH
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RE: A.net Recovering/recovered?

Thu Aug 07, 2008 2:31 am

FWIW:

Quoting QantasA332 (Reply 5):
I hadn't uploaded at all since DM's big changes

I haven't uploaded for a few months too. I now have three in the queue. We'll see how they do. If the views are super low, I'll hold back for another few months...

Quoting Aero145 (Reply 2):
Hmm, top of the last 24 hours with just over 1,000 views.

Also, even the last few photos on the top of the 24 hour page used to get at least 800-900 views. Right now it's under 500!!! We're talking about half the hits they would have normally be getting...

Tony
Nikon: we don't want more pixels, we want better pixels.
 
Silver1SWA
Crew
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RE: A.net Recovering/recovered?

Thu Aug 07, 2008 5:16 am



Quoting Chukcha (Reply 11):
On the other hand, if they fail to do it - the new photographers will just end up at the competitor's site.

I agree. I believe this is already happening. The competition offers a more "hassle-free" experience right now. I can't see how a new photographer would be enticed to stick around long enough to get any kind of system down for consistent acceptances. To much work involved, and with such a slow queue, getting through those first few rejections takes too long to make it worth the trouble. The slow queue, especially it's impact on rejections, is frustrating for a lot of us regulars!! If some of us are being put-off, wont it also happen to the new guys too?

I think the beginners, and the casual enthusiasts around the airport fence these days are becoming more and more familiar with the competition.

Quoting QantasA332 (Reply 12):
I don't follow this argument at all. How will new photographers save the site? What the administration really needs to be thinking about is how to get the veterans back and uploading regularly again.

True, but some of those new photographers may be the future big names of aviation photography becoming just as important to this site as the veterans.

Quoting ZakHH (Reply 14):
Shortly before her leaving, Monique tried to encourage constructive criticism, but during the following discussion, I did not feel that the attitude towards critics had really changed.

The whole situation strikes me as odd. I wonder what led to her departure... I also find it very interesting that the subject has gotten little attention. Either the Mods have been working some major over-time trying to keep her thread squeaky clean, or no one gives a damn anymore.

Quoting JakTrax (Reply 15):
I agree that new photog's have a hard time since the rules changed to allow them only two initial uploads, but wasn't that done under Johan?

Yes, but with the current queue situation, upload limitations are more frustrating than ever. I think it can drive new folks away. I believe in the need for such limitations, so I think what needs to be address and fixed (any day now!) is the SLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW queue. That will help relieve a lot of frustration, while still keeping the necessary limits on uploads.

Quoting JakTrax (Reply 21):
Yeah, the queue is off-putting but I don't think it's THE major issue; although I understand that for the new guys only allocated two upload slots two weeks must seem a bit of a p*ss-take.

I believe the queue problem should be the top priority around here and the site will not have a chance at recovering until it is fixed.

Quoting Jorge1812 (Reply 9):
it doesn't make any fun at all.

 checkmark  I agree. Not much fun around here these days...I've lost a lot of motivation.

Quoting Dendrobatid (Reply 20):
It is the holiday season for us too and quite a few screeners have been away.
The queue length is now the biggest problem though I think that will start to decrease shortly.

Mick, we have heard this response almost word-for-word from various screeners for almost 5 months now. How many more months before either:
a. These screeners return from holiday
or
b. Something is done to ensure that screening gets done at a reasonable pace while allowing the screeners to enjoy their lives outside of airliners.net.

I realize you probably don't have that answer. But as we all know, something needs to be done.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
javibi
Posts: 1295
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RE: A.net Recovering/recovered?

Thu Aug 07, 2008 9:30 am

In my point of view the site has improved a bit, as I encounter less bugs lately, but what is still putting me off uploading is the cluttered and unprofessional look of the homepage. That I would redesign from scratch, if I were the one responsible; the web that wants to be the best place in the internet to show your aviation photographs can't have a main page that looks like a bazaar. Too much white background, too many frames, too much information, not a hint at symmetry.

If you want the best photographs give them the best looking web, so they can be watched in all splendor.

Cheers,

j
 
NIKV69
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RE: A.net Recovering/recovered?

Thu Aug 07, 2008 12:05 pm



Quoting JumboJim747 (Reply 10):
I cauld not have said it any better.
Thats spot on the money but looks like no one wants to do anything about it.
Lets get back to the old layout and see the site get back to its former glory and if we dont i think it will die a slow death

I think what you see with the homepage is what you get. DM made some token changes but for the most part the old layout is gone.

Quoting Dendrobatid (Reply 20):
It is the holiday season for us too and quite a few screeners have been away.
The queue length is now the biggest problem though I think that will start to decrease shortly.
But then, just watch the uploads increase too !

I disagree and think the queue is being blown out of porportion. For the 4 years I have been here there has always been periods when the queue was long, these guys are human beings and it's not a big deal. Sometimes you wait 5 days sometimes you wait 14. It's part of life, I feel the homepage and certain functions and bugs are much more important.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
sovietjet
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Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2003 12:32 am

RE: A.net Recovering/recovered?

Thu Aug 07, 2008 5:31 pm



Quoting ZakHH (Reply 14):
Shortly before her leaving, Monique tried to encourage constructive criticism, but during the following discussion, I did not feel that the attitude towards critics had really changed.

Why did she leave? Sorry, I've been out of the loop.
 
bjcc
Posts: 342
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2005 4:29 am

RE: A.net Recovering/recovered?

Thu Aug 07, 2008 6:58 pm

This isn't going to be popular, but think about it, it may well work.

Close the upload queue, yes, I know, thats been suggested before, clear it to zero.

Then re open and impose a 2 uploads per person limit.

Those that are still reading......This will have 2 effects, the queue wont go through the roof, as it can't. Photos should be screened within 2 days, meaning a further 2 can be uploaded.

The result will be in 2 weeks, in theory, 14 photos uploaded per photog.

Thats 14 more than the current scheme, and allows newbies the access they need.

Right, steel helmet and flak jacket donned!
 
Silver1SWA
Crew
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RE: A.net Recovering/recovered?

Thu Aug 07, 2008 7:24 pm

Quoting Bjcc (Reply 28):
Right, steel helmet and flak jacket donned!

Well, the problem with that idea is, the queue isn't dealing with a huge number of uploads. It is just very slow. So I don't think your idea would change the speed of things much.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 26):
I disagree and think the queue is being blown out of porportion. For the 4 years I have been here there has always been periods when the queue was long,

Yes, periods in the past of the queue being long. Right now, the queue is slow because screening is not taking place at full capacity and has not for quite some time.

In the past, we have seen 14-15 day queues because of queue lengths in the 10,000-12,000+ range during peak seasons. In fact, as I recall, it was because of those long queues that Johan imposed the current limitations on uploads. He addressed the issue by finnding a way to relieve the situation. I don't think 14 day waits back then were any more fun to deal with than today. We have been dealing with the current situation for months with little change and little done to help.

[Edited 2008-08-07 12:25:44]
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
JonathanJet
Posts: 48
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RE: A.net Recovering/recovered?

Thu Aug 07, 2008 8:19 pm

I also seem to have seen a bit of an improvement in A.net recently. Things are working better, fewer bugs, and the homepage is manageable, although I still think the old page was more professional.

For those who think the "other" site is better, I totally disagree. After looking at the photos over there, I was actually glad for the standards here. So many of the shots were below par, and it was easy to imagine what they would have been rejected for here. I could immediately see a photo from a photographer that also has photos here, as the difference was major.

A faster queue would be great, but if time is required to keep the shots high quality, I'm happy to wait!

Thanks for all the top notch photos that are in the DB here! A.net is still my favorite! Keep it up!
I'd rather be shooting in Hawaii!
 
bjcc
Posts: 342
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RE: A.net Recovering/recovered?

Thu Aug 07, 2008 8:54 pm

Silver1SWA

In fact it would, resolve the issues, the queue, by vertue of everyone being limited would be shorter. In terms of total time to upload say 14 photos, it wouldn't make a great deal of difference, but in terms of 'drip feeding' photos into the database it certainly would make a difference. Thats assuming you are permitted to upload 14 photos, and obviously newbies arn't, so it gives them the chance to get thier photos on here as well.

J.Jet

I am constantly amazed that people think this site has a monopoly on good/great or wonderful photos. It doesn't. I upload some of mine to that 'other' site (and a number of others). Some of those photos, I would not submit here, not due to quality issues, but because this site hasn't gained my respect sufficently to want them here.

The reality is, and I owe neither brand X, nor here any bias as far as quality is concerned, and, the 'standards' or rather formula is the same. I've had photos accepted here, rejected by them for quality reasons. The difference is, I can usually see the reasoning for rejections there. They also suffer less from a lack of consistancy.
 
NIKV69
Posts: 10909
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

RE: A.net Recovering/recovered?

Thu Aug 07, 2008 10:41 pm



Quoting Bjcc (Reply 28):
This isn't going to be popular, but think about it, it may well work

Good reason it won't be popular, it's not pratical and we don't need to restrict everyone's uploads just so you don't have to wait.

Quoting JonathanJet (Reply 30):
For those who think the "other" site is better, I totally disagree. After looking at the photos over there, I was actually glad for the standards here. So many of the shots were below par, and it was easy to imagine what they would have been rejected for here. I could immediately see a photo from a photographer that also has photos here, as the difference was major.

A faster queue would be great, but if time is required to keep the shots high quality, I'm happy to wait!

 checkmark 
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
JakTrax
Topic Author
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RE: A.net Recovering/recovered?

Thu Aug 07, 2008 11:00 pm

I'm not sure I like the site politics at the moment - myself and another user (I forget who) have had our posts deleted from this thread because we dared discuss a message we received from site management (which wasn't particularly pleasant).

Hopefully mentioning no names in this thread will mean it won't get removed (wishful thinking?), however free speech seems to have flown out the window under DM - a little too much criticism and you're soon silenced. I really don't think that's keeping good relations with the photographers.

Karl
 
aero145
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RE: A.net Recovering/recovered?

Thu Aug 07, 2008 11:07 pm



Quoting SNATH (Reply 23):
Also, even the last few photos on the top of the 24 hour page used to get at least 800-900 views. Right now it's under 500!!! We're talking about half the hits they would have normally be getting...

I do remember the days when the top 5 were at least 5000<, quite often. It seems like ages and ages ago!

We’re talking about less than half the hits they would normally be getting, really.  thumbsdown 
 
SNATH
Posts: 3049
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RE: A.net Recovering/recovered?

Fri Aug 08, 2008 2:25 am



Quoting Aero145 (Reply 34):
I do remember the days when the top 5 were at least 5000<, quite often. It seems like ages and ages ago!

We're not that far off it today, but it seems to be the exception rather than the rule...

Tony
Nikon: we don't want more pixels, we want better pixels.
 
User avatar
jumbojim747
Posts: 2426
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RE: A.net Recovering/recovered?

Fri Aug 08, 2008 5:01 am



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 26):
I think what you see with the homepage is what you get. DM made some token changes but for the most part the old layout is gone.

Hi Nick
That is a shame i think i speak for the majority when i say the old layout was more appealing

Quoting Aero145 (Reply 34):
I do remember the days when the top 5 were at least 5000

Layout is the answer to that
Cheers
On a wing and a prayer
 
User avatar
jid
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RE: A.net Recovering/recovered?

Fri Aug 08, 2008 6:33 am



Quoting Bjcc (Reply 28):
This isn't going to be popular, but think about it, it may well work.

Close the upload queue, yes, I know, thats been suggested before, clear it to zero.

Then re open and impose a 2 uploads per person limit.

Who said that comedy was dead!!!
G7EPN is back after 15 years! Operating all Bands 80mtrs -> 70cms QRZ DX
 
Psych
Posts: 2944
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RE: A.net Recovering/recovered?

Fri Aug 08, 2008 6:34 am

People still talk a lot about this homepage - it shows the impact that whole experience had on many. Whilst I am still no fan of what I see there, it is an improvement from the time it was launched.

I would see further evidence of positive change here if members could be helped to understand that whole process and what it tells us about the relationship between management and membership. The proposals to change the page were initially communicated and comments invited - members were told management would listen to all feedback - there was then a lot of interested feedback, the vast majority highly critical - that feedback was then almost totally ignored - the new homepage was launched with pretty disastrous consequences - there was then further furore (as had been predicted by many) - and then slowly some of the feedback that had been presented right at the outset has been gradually incorporated into what we now see.

Now what exactly is the story there? Without an explanation members are only left to surmise as to what really occured - and the danger for the site is they will draw less than flattering conclusions. If the site has matured through its experiences over the last year then this whole episode could be debated properly and sensibly. That - for me - would be good evidence of recovery.

Full recovery for me includes two key elements - presenting excellent photos to the masses in a readily accessible manner, where technical problems become a rarity, rather than the norm; and a fully functional community of members, whose reciprocal relationship with the management/crew of the site is supportive and enjoyable. Then we could celebrate the change.

Paul
 
paulinbna
Posts: 1046
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RE: A.net Recovering/recovered?

Fri Aug 08, 2008 6:50 am

When you say the queue length is because the because of people of holiday. Why is the other site screening 8200 in a little over 5 days. Do they take holidays also?

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 24):

Mick, we have heard this response almost word-for-word from various screeners for almost 5 months now. How many more months before either:
a. These screeners return from holiday

I agree with this statement also. I have been with this site for some time and I have heard this many times before.
Another one is we are all volunteers. I will use my analogy that I have used before, many people volunteer in there lives and work really hard and long hours while they are volunteering. Everybody here that volunteered knew how long they would have to screen for. Hell I put in my application when there was a open call and I clearly remember one of the things that was put up front was to be able to screen for one hour a day. I remember this because I talked o my wife about taking that long to screen everyday.
Canon 50D user; 100-400 MM L IS 10-22 MM, 60MM Macro
 
ZakHH
Posts: 1570
Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2005 11:32 pm

RE: A.net Recovering/recovered?

Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:11 am



Quoting Psych (Reply 38):
Full recovery for me includes two key elements - presenting excellent photos to the masses in a readily accessible manner, where technical problems become a rarity, rather than the norm; and a fully functional community of members, whose reciprocal relationship with the management/crew of the site is supportive and enjoyable. Then we could celebrate the change.

Well said, Paul. But how do we reach such a 'functional community'? Over the past months, I could not fight the feeling that only blind supporters and yes men were regarded as 'functional' community members.

But the question to me is: do we, the membership, have to qualify to meet the crew's requirements? Or vice versa?

Agreed, you will never have a 100% supportive community. And the voices of the critics will always be louder than those of the satisfied members, as the critics will always have a stronger motivation to speak their minds.

But some of the recent argumentation, hinting towards only a tiny minority being unhappy with the changes here, struck me as ignorant at best. Plus, the blanket approach towards critics, resulting in a good portion of the (now former) membership getting their accounts revoked, did not leave me with a good reason to assume that anybody of the crew (including administration and volunteers) is seriously interested in an open discussion about the site.

We saw a good example for that just yesterday: Karl (JakTrax) wondered about having received a message from the site's general manager, in which he (Karl) was bluntly accused of having no clue of aviation photography. His (Karl's) tone was civil, still his post was deleted. Most probably for 'publishing confidential information', as everything the crew will ever say to us will be deemed confidential, no matter how far off the track it is.

Does that represent a true culture of communication?

If the only form of criticism that is allowed here for the membership is posting technical bugs we have found, then we are degraded to beta testers. Monique had made an attempt towards encouraging constructive criticism, but I did not see any consequences resulting out of it.

I know, there still is the 'if you have a problem, contact us by e-mail' story. I tried the same more than once, and never received any reply. Which I am probably not even allowed to say, as probably even the absence of communication is already classified as confidential, and must not be published.

The key question to me is: what strategy is the site management following in terms of community relations? I have repeatedly said that I am missing any form of apparent strategy with that, ever since the migration desaster. And I cannot see any until today.

For me, this question is crucial for my decision whether to further contribute to the site or not. If my thoughts and ideas are deemed as inappropriate by the crew, then I will have better things to do than wasting my (and their) time.
Tired of a.net? Join a friendly aviation community!
 
Silver1SWA
Crew
Posts: 4458
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RE: A.net Recovering/recovered?

Fri Aug 08, 2008 9:09 am

Excellent post ZakHH

Quoting JakTrax (Reply 33):
however free speech seems to have flown out the window under DM - a little too much criticism and you're soon silenced. I really don't think that's keeping good relations with the photographers.

This has been the biggest issue that has set the depressing tone lately, IMO. Much of the negativity and resentment towards the site and its management stems from the censorship of users and their opinions. Many folks are bitter...

Quoting Paulinbna (Reply 39):
When you say the queue length is because the because of people of holiday. Why is the other site screening 8200 in a little over 5 days. Do they take holidays also?

Not only that, but why has taking holiday only now affected the queue? Haven't the screeners at this site always taken holidays? Haven't they always had personal lives to live? Why now has it become something that is slowing the process?

Quoting Paulinbna (Reply 39):
Another one is we are all volunteers. I will use my analogy that I have used before, many people volunteer in there lives and work really hard and long hours while they are volunteering.

Exactly, and like I said before...screening is needed for this site to serve it's true purpose. It is a job that needs to be done. I would hope we can all agree that screening NEEDS to get done in order for this site to function. Volunteers are volunteers, and sure they are allowed to live their lives. But when you volunteer for something, there are still responsibilities that are expected of you. Screening is a job. Whether the people carrying out the job are paid employees or volunteers, It is the responsibility of those in charge (management) to ensure that the jobs necessary for providing their products/services are carried out. And if they want to be successful they have to make sure they they keep their customers satisfied. The overall experience at this site has been unsatisfactory and no doubt, the screening queue as played a role.

[Edited 2008-08-08 02:10:56]
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
wilco737
Posts: 7279
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2004 12:21 am

RE: A.net Recovering/recovered?

Fri Aug 08, 2008 10:08 am

Hello everybody,

don't rip my head off when I am posting here as a crew member  pray  Big grin

I was reading through this thread a bit and I want to put in my 2 cents now as well.

From what I read, it looks like the communication and the photo queue seems to be the biggest concerns here.
Mick said earlier something about the queue, that it is for sure too long and he gave an explanation. I am no photo screener, so I don't know whats going on there. But I am pretty sure that the photo screeners screen as much as they can in their free time. New screeners are in training and that should reduce the queue as well (hopefully)  Wink

The communication issues. Well, we had loads of discussions and threads about it in Site related as well. Monique tried to recover what was lost with her thread she started. I read a lot of constructive critique and a lot of them was discussed among the crew members as well. Monique now is no longer working for A.net, she is "normal" first class member now. So, it looks like all the communication has to go via the crew members or directly to paul.
The new design. It was clear that DM will have a new design. They bought the site and want some kind of their own style - which I can understand. Many users weren't happy with the new design and they told DM about it in the threads. Maybe a little late, but some of the good ideas of the community was considered and we saw a change in the design which is a lot better than the first version of DM. And I am sure they still work on it and there will be other minor changes as well.

I think A.net has recovered pretty much. Only minor things are still bugging us and in my opinion only one big issue (the upload queue). So, it is not too bad, is it?  Wink

WILCO737 (MD11F)
 airplane 
 
sulman
Posts: 1963
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2004 5:09 am

RE: A.net Recovering/recovered?

Fri Aug 08, 2008 10:14 am



Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 41):
Exactly, and like I said before...screening is needed for this site to serve it's true purpose. It is a job that needs to be done. I would hope we can all agree that screening NEEDS to get done in order for this site to function. Volunteers are volunteers, and sure they are allowed to live their lives. But when you volunteer for something, there are still responsibilities that are expected of you. Screening is a job. Whether the people carrying out the job are paid employees or volunteers, It is the responsibility of those in charge (management) to ensure that the jobs necessary for providing their products/services are carried out. And if they want to be successful they have to make sure they they keep their customers satisfied. The overall experience at this site has been unsatisfactory and no doubt, the screening queue as played a role.

You can never call volunteer work a 'job'. It's unpaid - there is no reward, either monetary or materially and therefore, by extension, no consequences either. There is no obligation for any screener to do anything at all. A crewmember, from a point of view of pure reason, has no responsibility to the site or contributors, other than that they have chosen to give of their own free will. There are no consequences for not performing that mean anything in the real world - if they are released from their screening duties, they have lost nothing, it will not effect them in any way, other than giving them more free time.

As long as this arrangement exists, we have no right to complain. If they were taking your buck for it, that would be a different story.

James
It takes a big man to admit they are wrong, and I am not a big man.
 
INNflight
Posts: 3526
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 5:11 am

RE: A.net Recovering/recovered?

Fri Aug 08, 2008 11:08 am



Quoting ZakHH (Reply 40):
But some of the recent argumentation, hinting towards only a tiny minority being unhappy with the changes here, struck me as ignorant at best.

 checkmark  totally agree.

Quoting ZakHH (Reply 40):
The key question to me is: what strategy is the site management following in terms of community relations?

See, another problem....I encounter it right now. If I'd write what I think *cough*myspa*cough*ce my post will be gone in a second and I've wasted my time.

Imo (totally personal point of view) they don't care about keeping the oldies (and I'm not talking about skidmarks  old   tombstone  ). New people will come, who have never heard of the site's troubles and will just adapt to the politics.

Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 42):
I think A.net has recovered pretty much.


Will all due respect Mr. MD11 I think that's a naiiive statement. Either that or you'll have to get your class 1 med renewed Big grin

Views are still far from where they have been, not mentioning the bugs over and over again, and morale is low. If it's not SO obvious on this forum, that's because people know voicing their opinions is hardly worth it.

Maybe go out spotting at FRA or whatever other random airport, hook up with some photographers and ask them what they think of the site's current state.
Don't mention you're a crewmember and you'll be SURPRISED.

The words have spread long time ago, this forum is a vast minority.

Anyway, time to move on, nothing to see here.
---
Cheers,
Florian
Jet Visuals
 
wilco737
Posts: 7279
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2004 12:21 am

RE: A.net Recovering/recovered?

Fri Aug 08, 2008 11:15 am



Quoting INNflight (Reply 44):
Will all due respect Mr. MD11 I think that's a naiiive statement. Either that or you'll have to get your class 1 med renewed

Uh oh, I need to renew it in 2.5 months, I should be worried then  Wink

On a serious note: I know there are still bugs, but not really big ones like right after the takeover. And yes, those bugs are sometimes still annoying.

Quoting INNflight (Reply 44):
Don't mention you're a crewmember and you'll be SURPRISED.

I can read all those opinions here. I have been reading them for months now. And I don't hear a lot of good which is sad  Sad I still enjoy this site a lot and spend quite some time on here (and not just because I am a crewmember, as chat operator you don't have much to do at the moment Big grin ) I upload pictures, I get pictures accepted, I post in the forum and getting attacked by other users in those threads for whatever reason...  Wink

Quoting INNflight (Reply 44):
Anyway, time to move on, nothing to see here.

Apparently still enought that you still check here and post here  duck  Big grin

WILCO737 (MD11F)
 airplane 
 
NIKV69
Posts: 10909
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

RE: A.net Recovering/recovered?

Fri Aug 08, 2008 11:18 am



Quoting JakTrax (Reply 33):
I'm not sure I like the site politics at the moment - myself and another user (I forget who) have had our posts deleted from this thread because we dared discuss a message we received from site management (which wasn't particularly pleasant).

That is not exactly free speech. Posting a message that was sent to you privately is not a good thing to do or discussing it. It's a private conversation sent to you privately by them so as not to have it aired out here. I have received messages from management. No need to discuss them here.

Quoting JumboJim747 (Reply 36):
Hi Nick
That is a shame i think i speak for the majority when i say the old layout was more appealing

Oh yea no doubt. I feel the site logo was forever changed and the whole home page was better the old way. Have to move on though. It's moot.

Quoting Paulinbna (Reply 39):
When you say the queue length is because the because of people of holiday. Why is the other site screening 8200 in a little over 5 days. Do they take holidays also?

There are other factors in play here. Most importantly the fact the pictures don't go through the same vigorous screening at JP so of course you are going to be able to fly through the queue. So what?

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 41):
Not only that, but why has taking holiday only now affected the queue? Haven't the screeners at this site always taken holidays? Haven't they always had personal lives to live? Why now has it become something that is slowing the process?

It has before Ryan, this is not the first time. Also remember that we don't have the number of screeners we have had in recent times. Gary is working on new blood. Again it's part of life.

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 41):
Screening is a job

Careful Ryan you are falling into the same trap Flynavy has. It is not a job and it's not a birthright to have your pics here. It's voluntary on both sides.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
javibi
Posts: 1295
Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2004 5:55 pm

RE: A.net Recovering/recovered?

Fri Aug 08, 2008 11:20 am

Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 42):
only one big issue (the upload queue)

May I dissent?

The queue at A.net has been long as far as I can remember, in Johan's time as well as now with DM. Several measures have been taken over time in order to shorten it, but it seems none of them have worked in the long run. By now I think we can agree that waiting a long time for your pictures to be screened is one of the "perks" of A.net. Some people care about that, some don't.

But I do not think it is the long queue what is causing people to quit uploading, to pull their pictures from the db, to cancel their membership, to visit the site less often. IMO those who are leaving are doing so because of the changes in the site itself for the worst (poor design, plenty of glitches, etc.) that have made visiting A.net a less than enjoyable experience, and in turn have reduced the incentive for us photogs to show our work here. Add to this some harsh reactions from the management to criticism (please do not think I cannot understand DM people are human and must be very frustrated about how things are turning out and about the many unreasonable attacks they must have received) and a perceived lack of communication (remember the TOU affair?) and you'll have the perfect recipe for disaster.

Of course there are always wonderful new talents to replace us the old guys   , but I for one miss the times when A.net was clearly a cut above the competition, and most of us didn't mind if we have to wait ages to get our pictures screened, because we thought A.net was the best place available to show our work, in terms of design and appeal of the site and exposure.

I still have a bit of hope (you can easily deduct that from the fact that I haven't pulled my photos yet and keep posting here, though I have stopped uploading), but I wonder if anyone in DM listens and agrees with anything I try to express here. And if they don't, I'd really like to know why.

Cheers,

j

[Edited 2008-08-08 04:30:23]
 
wilco737
Posts: 7279
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2004 12:21 am

RE: A.net Recovering/recovered?

Fri Aug 08, 2008 11:27 am



Quoting Javibi (Reply 47):
May I dissent?

Yes, you may  Wink

Quoting Javibi (Reply 47):
The queue at A.net has been long as far as I can remember, in Johan's time as well as now with DM. Several measures have been taken over time in order to shorten it, but it seems none of them have worked in the long run. By now I think we can agree that waiting a long time for your pictures to be screened is one of the "perks" of A.net. Some people care about that, some don't.

It was just my feeling from reading here and in site related that photogs are frustrated about the long queue and that seems to be (part of) the reason why they stopped uploading. it is not great to wait that long until your pic get screened and for newcomers it can be frustrating to wait 2 weeks, rejection, upload again, rejection. So it can take weeks until they finally are successful.

Quoting Javibi (Reply 47):
remember the TOU affair?

how can we forget about that  boxedin 

Quoting Javibi (Reply 47):
MO those who are leaving are doing so because of the changes in the site itself for the worst (poor design, plenty of glitches, etc.)

I don't think the design is that poor anymore. it has improved a lot since the 1st version and I hope for more improvement. But the old design won't come back.

Quoting Javibi (Reply 47):
Of course there are always wonderful new talents to replace us the old guys

We want both: keeping the "old guys" the experienced who put a lot of effort in this side already AND we want the new ones, who upload with a lot of enthusiasm.

Quoting Javibi (Reply 47):
I still have a bit of hope

Thank god! And I hope it stays that way that you keep posting and keep your pics in the database and I REALLY DO hope that you start upload again!  pray  Same for all other photogs here. You can bring a.net back to #1!

WILCO737 (MD11F)
 airplane 
 
INNflight
Posts: 3526
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 5:11 am

RE: A.net Recovering/recovered?

Fri Aug 08, 2008 11:50 am



Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 45):
Quoting INNflight (Reply 44):
Anyway, time to move on, nothing to see here.

Apparently still enought that you still check here and post here

Oh absolutely  Smile I first visited this site in 1999 or 2000 if I recall correctly. I grew up with it, had my first photos accepted long time ago, had my first sales through this site and most importantly, made LOTS of new friends through this site.

It would be stupid to just leave all that behind, but at the same time it would be stupid to wear my fancy pink sunglasses and pretend it's all as it should be.

Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 48):
It was just my feeling from reading here and in site related that photogs are frustrated about the long queue and that seems to be (part of) the reason why they stopped uploading.

Speaking for myself, absolutely not! The queue has been at 15k plus photos sometimes, and while it's not exactly comfortable for uploaders, most of us know it has been like that for a long time and is hard to change.

BUT, you made a great point I'd like to follow-up on...

Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 48):
I REALLY DO hope that you start upload again! Same for all other photogs here. You can bring a.net back to #1!

That's TRUE. People like Steve Morris, Javier (or even) Sam Chui C O U L D invest their time and energy and make the site a lot better.

QUESTION: WHY?!?

It's definitely not our turn. It's the management's turn to finally get their things together and to finally stop treating us like a bunch of 13yr old myspace users!

It's definitely not our work to make this site as classy as it used to be. It's the owners work!!!

If you run a store improperly you can't tell previous customers to come back, buy again and fix it!!!

---

 Smile
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