boquera
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Thu Jan 08, 2009 8:19 pm

hi everyone, i was up on level 13 on T1 carpark at MAN thihs arvo having a little practice with my camera taking shots of aircraft landing when after about 20 mins of bad light and not many landings an airport PCSO comes over to me and asks me what i'm doing. I explain and say I have a newish camera and was just having a practice with it. He gets on his radio and repeats this to whoever was on the other end. Anyway I ask him whats the problem, have I done something wrong and he just tells me he's responding to a report of a young male (myself) taking photos and asks me if "i'm one of those plane spotters" .........I didnt think this was really a problem as Iv done this for about 8 years now and never had any questions. So he asks for my name and d.o.b and leaves leaving me a ll confused. This happened to anyone else?? (oh and btw i wasnt acting suspiciously)
 
JonathanJet
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Thu Jan 08, 2009 8:41 pm

Well here in the USA at San Francisco (SFO) they did the same thing..did a background check..and left me alone..

JonathanJet
I'd rather be shooting in Hawaii!
 
jrowson
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Thu Jan 08, 2009 10:05 pm

That's a little unusual for L13, but I wouldn't worry too much. I guess if you were taking landing shots then you were on the opposite side of the carpark to where you normally would take photos, so hence they were probably just checking you weren't up to anything you shouldn't have been doing. I know it's happened to a few photogs that have been up on the T3 top level. I've been soutside and had my details taken on a few occasions by the Police, but have always been left alone afterwards.
James Rowson. Canonite and lover of all things L. JAR Photography.
 
JakTrax
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Thu Jan 08, 2009 11:40 pm

Never known it happen on the multi-storey but it has happened frequently around the perimeter. We tend not to be bothered these days but if we are it's usually more of a "How are you, chaps?" kinda thing than them collecting any details. Plus I bet they know us all now anyway!

You still get the odd arsehole copper however (usually young and a new recruit) who thinks it necessary to throw his weight around - I always find it funny when they saunter off, having just been told that, contrary to their belief, I have every right to be where I am. This happened a few months back (September), when a young lad came over to me in Joe's field and told me I couldn't be there. I told him that it was a regular haunt for many of us and that it was actually a public right-of-way but he decided to be stubborn and declared that, in his 8 months at MAN, he'd never seen photographers here. Sensing I wasn't going to budge he got on his radio, and whoever was on the other end told him that I was fine and concurred that the spot was indeed a regular haunt for us lot. And so off he went, tail between his legs! Needless to say, he got away as quickly as he could and without further word!

Karl
 
Braniff747SP
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Fri Jan 09, 2009 5:07 am

at LAX i was spotting, at a place 40 yards from the end of the runway... a cop came and told me the i couldn't be there... he was nice about it, but where i was there were no sign, nothing telling me that i couldn't be there. i was annoyed.
The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
 
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JohnKrist
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Fri Jan 09, 2009 5:34 am

It's rather common at MMX and CPH that the guards/Police approach you if you are standing in a parking lot and it's because other elements of our society raiding them for valuables. So they are just doing their job, protecting peoples property. And so far there has never been a problem for me as soon as they see the photo gear, and I usually show them some images too.
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dazbo5
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Fri Jan 09, 2009 8:20 am

I've been stopped twice at MAN by the police, and searched once. It's just the police carrying out their security checks, I wouldn't worry about it. They have a job to do to keep us all safe. The first time I was stopped was on the field by 23R approach. I was on my own that day and the police had a quick look in my bag just to ensure it was just camera equipment I had. The second time was just before christmas when a plain clothes officer asked me what the 'bar' in my bag was, it was my monopod! Just be friendly with them and let them do their checks and they'll leave you alone after that.

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apollo13
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Fri Jan 09, 2009 8:41 am

Yeah ive encountered my first check last Saturday at the San Bruno Avenue Overpass near SFO. I was with a group of people and a police officer checked our ID's and all the regular practice. He then left us alone.

It was fun!!
 
TupolevTu154
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Fri Jan 09, 2009 10:07 am

I have to have a rant about a police officer at LHR a couple of weeks ago. We'd been spoken to by the highway authority about an hour prior to the police's visit, and they were nice enough and just wished us well. The police weren't so understanding. One officer in particular rounded us up and asked us "Are you just planespotters then?" "Yeah" "Well, let me ask you this. What do you think passing motorists are going to thing at a bunch of chaps standing around in a field with wooly hats on and big lenses next to one of the worlds busiest airports?" (At this point I was extremely tempted to say 'Planespotters?' but chose to tell him what he wanted to hear instead) There was a silence from the officer for a while before him bursting out with "Durrrrrrr" in an extremely patronising fashion. "Terrorists, of course. So before our time starts being wasted by phone calls calling you lot suspicious, I suggest you move on. You're not allowed to be down there anyway". That was complete and utter BS. We'd been down there for the best part of 6 hours and had a visit from the highway authority, 15 other photographers/spotters and it's practically an official viewing spot anyway. He then went on about some place up at T5 we can spot from. "I don't have a problem with you lot indulging in your hobby but don't do it here".

This officer belittled us and patronised us to the point we were fuming, only stayed another 10 minutes and left.
 
mkwiat
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Fri Jan 09, 2009 10:37 am

Just out of interest TupolevTu154, where exactly were you at LHR when this police officer showed up? They’ve always been very civil when I’ve been stopped by them. Hopefully with the new aviation enthusiast scheme the police and BAA have set up at LHR things might get a little easier.
 
Daleaholic
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Fri Jan 09, 2009 11:49 am

The police at MAN are very planespotter friendly from my experience. Through my own fault, parking like an idiot, I got a talking to from the police last year.

I was spotting on the mounds opposite the airport pub at 23R. I heard sirens, but they weren't moving, so i thought... hmmm, best go back to the car and check everything is ok. There was a police officer waiting in the field by the gate. Once I got to him he asked if the car parked up was mine and then told me I couldn't park there and that they nearly had the car towed! They took my details, checked out my license and car, asked what I was up to (told him I was planespotting) and then left me to it.

I've been southside so many times, the police just have a look at you to check you're not up to anything sinister and drive past.

In my opinion, the PCSO is probably a new recruit and just isn't familiar with the relaxed attitude towards planespotters at Manchester Airport  Smile
Religion is an illusion of childhood... Outgrown under proper education.
 
JakTrax
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Fri Jan 09, 2009 12:20 pm



Quoting Daleaholic (Reply 10):
The police at MAN are very planespotter friendly from my experience

The majority are but I can think of two arseholes off-hand.....

I often park my car by the gate at the entrance to Joe's field as these days the mud-pile in front of the gate won't allow it to open. When was the last time a vehicle needed access via this point of entry? A long time ago, let me tell you!

Karl
 
PRGDLGUY
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Fri Jan 09, 2009 1:13 pm

Its happened to me at MAN but on the other side of airport. Policman just come asked me for ID, than called somewhere and than was OK. Same in Japan when I showed my camera (NRT, HND, ITM) they approached me asked for passport, made some notices and wished me a nice spotting. If they are just monitoring activity around airport and let us there to continue its fine........

Honza
 
Daleaholic
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Fri Jan 09, 2009 4:16 pm



Quoting JakTrax (Reply 11):

Back in the summer when the said incident happened... there was nothing blocking the gate. Although I thought If I parked in front of it, that was likely to be more of a concern than on the road.
Religion is an illusion of childhood... Outgrown under proper education.
 
TupolevTu154
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Fri Jan 09, 2009 4:34 pm



Quoting Mkwiat (Reply 9):
Just out of interest TupolevTu154, where exactly were you at LHR when this police officer showed up? They’ve always been very civil when I’ve been stopped by them. Hopefully with the new aviation enthusiast scheme the police and BAA have set up at LHR things might get a little easier.

It was down the bank from the T5 road, south of the approach to 09L.

Quoting Daleaholic (Reply 10):
The police at MAN are very planespotter friendly from my experience. Through my own fault, parking like an idiot, I got a talking to from the police last year.

Ahh yes, I remember that! You were shit*ing yourself Big grin
 
Daleaholic
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Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:37 pm



Quoting TupolevTu154 (Reply 14):
Ahh yes, I remember that! You were shit*ing yourself

 grumpy  You've got it all to come my friend with the police!
Religion is an illusion of childhood... Outgrown under proper education.
 
alasdair1982
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Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:58 pm



Quoting Boquera (Thread starter):
an airport PCSO comes over to me and asks me what i'm doing

Did Mr or Mrs PCSO not demand you to stop taking pictures and go through the Section 44 b*llocks?!
 
TupolevTu154
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Fri Jan 09, 2009 7:42 pm



Quoting Daleaholic (Reply 15):
grumpy You've got it all to come my friend with the police!

Only, I know not to park on a blind corner  Wink
 
boquera
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Sat Jan 10, 2009 1:26 am

Quoting Boquera (Thread starter):
an airport PCSO comes over to me and asks me what i'm doing

Did Mr or Mrs PCSO not demand you to stop taking pictures and go through the Section 44 b*llocks?!

.......................................

no, that was the confusing thing, just took my name and date of birth and walked off. just out of interest, why take d.o.b? Come to think of it, he did see my green pass hanging out of my coat when he came over to me (may be why he didnt ask for more details?????). He wasnt an arse tho but it did make me decamp to the pub, missed the PIA A310 landing so not too pleased!!!
 
Daleaholic
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Sat Jan 10, 2009 2:14 am



Quoting Boquera (Reply 18):

Police can get information even you don't know about yourself using just your name and D.O.B... hence why they take them.
Religion is an illusion of childhood... Outgrown under proper education.
 
bjcc
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Sat Jan 10, 2009 9:35 am

Daleaholic

Sorry, utter rubbish. The reason a DOB is asked for is twofold. One, its one of the parameters needed for a PNC check. There is nothing on that you don't know, unless you are wanted. Even then you'd probably realise it. The second reason is that the rules on stops mean that a form has to be submitted for the Home Office, DOB is again one of the parameters asked for. It means the HO can publish pointless stats on stop and search.

I have to make an assumption on MAN, that they have similar bye laws to LHR. If thats correct, then you can't use the car park for anything other than parking. Even if thats not the case, common sense should tell you that being in an area where there are lots of cars parked, and where vehicle crime is high (airport car parks are!) then you are going to get asked what you are doing. You may regard it as obvious, but it wont be the first time someone's walking round with a camera at an airport car park, nicking things, rather than clicking!
 
boquera
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Sat Jan 10, 2009 10:30 am

Bjcc, at MAN, Level 13 has been designated an official spotters terrace for years, they even sign it still in the lifts. They have just recently (ish) moved car rental up there (so its v.busy) but its made no difference to spotters being up there-its still allowed
 
bjcc
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Sat Jan 10, 2009 10:45 am

And as I said, common sense even if spotters are permitted, given the place where they are, means that you have every chance of being asked what you are doing. To use a different example, you are permitted to carry a box round at midnight, but, if you do you'll probably be stopped if seen by Police. The fact you are doing something that is quite legal, does not mean there is no possibility of it being the opposite.
This is something that many people don't or can't grasp. In the same way that people assume that the new scheme at LHR will lead to them not being stopped, it doesn't, nor does it mean that members of that scheme can go into areas where they are not permitted currently. Or that they wont be ejected from within the airport perri roads, like they are sometimes now.
 
Daleaholic
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Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:18 am



Quoting Bjcc (Reply 20):
I have to make an assumption on MAN

Have you ever even been spotting at Manchester Airport?

You sound as if you have no idea about the airport and the relaxed attitude from police and airport staff towards planespotters.

I personally think you're talking utter rubbish, making assumptions about somewhere you've never been!
Religion is an illusion of childhood... Outgrown under proper education.
 
JakTrax
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Sat Jan 10, 2009 12:53 pm



Quoting Daleaholic (Reply 23):
Have you ever even been spotting at Manchester Airport?

You sound as if you have no idea about the airport and the relaxed attitude from police and airport staff towards planespotters.

I personally think you're talking utter rubbish, making assumptions about somewhere you've never been!

I'm not one to bash folk but I have to agree.....

...Although on the other hand I do kinda see Bjcc's point...

Karl
 
Brasila684
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Sat Jan 10, 2009 5:04 pm

They had that happen at Fresno Air Terminal (KFAT/FAT). The way I heard it was that there were a few spotters shooting the ANG F-16's taking off and they did a backround check on all of them and told the to leave the area. The police are so concerned about people doing anything around an airport after 9/11, everybody even the spotters have to suffer.  Sad
 
Daleaholic
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Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:43 pm



Quoting JakTrax (Reply 24):
..Although on the other hand I do kinda see Bjcc's point...

I can also see his point about being in certain areas of an airport but think it's wrong of him to make assumptions without having visited these places.  Smile
Religion is an illusion of childhood... Outgrown under proper education.
 
skidmarks
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Sat Jan 10, 2009 8:40 pm

Personally I would be quite worried about security if the Police and Security operatives did NOT ask me and others for some sort of ID now and then. Assuming we are planespotters would the epitomy of laxness on their part.

However, common sense has a place and the newbie with attitude, the oldie with a bad hair day and Mr Angry Plod all contribute to the general feeling of persecution on the odd day. But, lets face it, even at Stalag Gatwick, the filth are usually quite friendly and even helpful - unless you are stupid enough to park on the side of the road or climb trees around the fence. Most of them are savvy to the obvious signs of nerdiness we all display, whether we are smartly dressed or look like a sack of crap tied up with string. The expensive cameras and binoculars tend to give the game away somewhat.

No, let them ask apparently daft questions, annoy us with dumb staements about security and generally annoy us sometimes. Just be glad they DO take notice of us and recognise that, on the whole, we are harmless and maybe on the odd occasion, quite useful as extra eyes and ears.

Andy  old 
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bjcc
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Sat Jan 10, 2009 9:23 pm

Daleaholic

Yes, I have been taking photos at MAN, Wed being the last time. Shame the weather was rubbish!

I also used to police an airport, rather bigger than MAN. Having done some research, my assumption is correct, and a similar bye law exists at MAN as does at LHR regarding access.

You seem unable to grasp, what I said, I'll repeat it for you. Even if spotting is permitted, then that does not absolve you from being stopped and asked what you are doing. You may think you are clearly an obvious spotter, nothing more. From the other point of view, baring in mind I have been on both sides, and you have not, it does not always appear quite so cut and dried. What is obvious to you as innocent, could, can and has been anything but innocent. That is not to say that spotters are all up to no good, but it would be wrong of a Police Officer (even a PCSO) to ignore something if it could have another motive.

This has nothing to do with your completly wrong assumption, based on no knowladge, that I have never visited MAN, it is pure common sense.
 
JakTrax
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Sun Jan 11, 2009 12:53 pm

The police at MAN now know all the regulars and the situation is different than at any other airport in the UK. I am perhaps more qualified than most to speak of how police react at MAN because, due to the nature of my job, I can (and do) get out there any day I choose - providing the weather is alright!

Karl
 
Daleaholic
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Sun Jan 11, 2009 1:41 pm



Quoting Bjcc (Reply 28):
You seem unable to grasp, what I said, I'll repeat it for you. Even if spotting is permitted, then that does not absolve you from being stopped and asked what you are doing

You don't have to repeat anything for me as I never said that anybody was immune to being stopped and asked questions. I simply said that Manchester airport has a relaxed attitude towards planespotters using designated spotting areas and regular spots, such as Southside, 23L fire station, Joe's field, Level 13 and the AVP.
Religion is an illusion of childhood... Outgrown under proper education.
 
bjcc
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Sun Jan 11, 2009 3:37 pm

Daleaholic

I think you'll find that was your second point after your incorrect assumptions regarding legislation and silly comments regarding what you thought.
As for your escape point, AVP isn't really relevent, as its name implys. MAN Airport has no say in what happens South Side, it's a public area, and nothing to do with them, same applies to Joe's Field, excpet thats obvious private property, not thiers. Level 13, is no longer a 'designated' spotting area, according to Man airport Police, and hasn't been for a long time. Spotters are tollerated there, provided they don't take the P word.
So the one area on the airport, over which the airport have control, is treated exactly the same as say the perri road at LHR. Not quite the more relaxed attitude when you examine the full facts, rather than assume, is it?
I'll grant you though, the opportunity (if you ignore the weather!) to take stunning photos is far better at MAN than any other airport I can think of in the UK, I'm sure in time someone will ruin it.
 
JakTrax
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Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:16 pm



Quoting Bjcc (Reply 31):
As for your escape point, AVP isn't really relevent, as its name implys. MAN Airport has no say in what happens South Side, it's a public area, and nothing to do with them, same applies to Joe's Field, excpet thats obvious private property, not thiers. Level 13, is no longer a 'designated' spotting area, according to Man airport Police, and hasn't been for a long time. Spotters are tollerated there, provided they don't take the P word.
So the one area on the airport, over which the airport have control, is treated exactly the same as say the perri road at LHR. Not quite the more relaxed attitude when you examine the full facts, rather than assume, is it?
I'll grant you though, the opportunity (if you ignore the weather!) to take stunning photos is far better at MAN than any other airport I can think of in the UK, I'm sure in time someone will ruin it.

I will chime in here because some of your assumptions are wrong. For starters, the area known as Joe's field is at the moment owned by MAG. Secondly, although the south side is nothing to do with MAG, they are responsible for policing the areas bordering on airport property. Cains Lane and the small field by Mrytle Avenue are also public areas and not LHR's property but the police seem to have a whale of a time getting folk to move along. Level 13 is indeed no longer a designated facility and you are right in assuming that the authorities have no real issues with people up there.

Examining the full facts, I can conclude that MAN is definately a very relaxed airport, although individually the police's take on things can be somewhat different. Ultimately the spotters/photographers have never lost when confronted by arsehole coppers and have always managed to stay put without being moved on.
 
Daleaholic
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Sun Jan 11, 2009 9:04 pm



Quoting Bjcc (Reply 31):
I think you'll find that was your second point after your incorrect assumptions regarding legislation and silly comments regarding what you thought.

Please can you quote the said point, as I can't seem to find it! If you're referring to me talking about how they can find out details about you using your D.O.B then I stand by my comment. The general public can't see the details of a PNC check can they? And I'd imagine a PNC check brings up information which the general public are unlikely to know..

Quoting Bjcc (Reply 31):
As for your escape point

I don't think I need an 'escape point' as I've not said anything factually wrong  confused 

Quoting Bjcc (Reply 31):
Level 13, is no longer a 'designated' spotting area, according to Man airport Police, and hasn't been for a long time. Spotters are tollerated there, provided they don't take the P word.

3 years isn't really that long is it?

Bjcc, to me, you come across as having the opinion that you are superior to me...  psst  Which I won't accept!
Religion is an illusion of childhood... Outgrown under proper education.
 
bjcc
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Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:00 pm

Daleaholic

No idea what 3 years refers to.

PNC contains details of a persons criminal record, nothing more. You will know if you have one, as you have to be at court when it happens. So yes, your point, is incorrect, there is nothing else on it.

You other points...

You said
"I can also see his point about being in certain areas of an airport but think it's wrong of him to make assumptions without having visited these places"

Clearly, incorrect. Last week, being the latest time I visited, and assumptions? Yes, based on experience, and the knowladge that airport bye laws are much the same at all UK airports.


In this case, an assumption proven correct.

Your 'escape point, ie one which you deicded to make, when the error in your original points were pointed out, was that Police have a more relaxed attitude at MAN. Yes and no is the answer to that.

You can think what you like about a 'superior' attitude, but please get your facts right before stating them as gospel. You'll note, until I had checked, I used the word assume, not is. You on the other hand, said is, before you knew.

Jaxtrax

MAG are responsible for Policing nothing at all. They have no police Powers, and no juristiction. GMP are ressponsible for Policing the airport, Cheshire for the South Side. It being a public place, then even if MAG wanted people moved the answer would be no.

Mertyle Ave, is not policed by Heathrow, although All English Police Officers have powers in England and Wales, so yes, we did, and they sometimes do, visit that location. I don't see the connection though between that and South Side of MAN, apart from both being outside and near an airport, and used by photogs.
 
JakTrax
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Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:34 pm



Quoting Bjcc (Reply 34):
MAG are responsible for Policing nothing at all. They have no police Powers, and no juristiction. GMP are ressponsible for Policing the airport, Cheshire for the South Side. It being a public place, then even if MAG wanted people moved the answer would be no.

Mertyle Ave, is not policed by Heathrow, although All English Police Officers have powers in England and Wales, so yes, we did, and they sometimes do, visit that location. I don't see the connection though between that and South Side of MAN, apart from both being outside and near an airport, and used by photogs.

MAG decides who polices the areas inside of the perimeter fence, and in MAN's case they chose the GMPD, much like MAG chose Securicor at EMA. Some of us know pretty much what the police (or whoever's policing) can and can't do but you often find that even the police aren't 100% sure, and this is where authorities and enthusiasts begin to fall out. The responsibility for policing the airport perimeter at MAN now falls entirely to GMPD, as the Cheshire constabularly pulled off the southside quite recently. Pity as Cheshire were a lot less suspicious, although in time I'm sure GMPD will get to know the regulars and adopt a similar attitude.

I can see both your points here but the law isn't always as clear cut as that and what an officer tells us one day may not apply the next; if at all!

Take EMA for example. How many times do you think those Securicor guys (on the INSIDE of the fence) try and shift us from the mound by 27? Frequently. Now policing the landside areas isn't down to them and they are powerless to move people, however the local plod round there seem to be good at the art of intimidation. Now I'm not sure who owns that piece of land (MAG?) but much of it is a public right of way and that means that harmless loitering is not illegal, although I wouldn't mind answering a few questions if someone in authority felt the need to ask.

So to summise, it's always a good idea to study any local by-laws, and obtaining a hard copy of them is also wise. Bear in mind too, that as far as I'm aware (depending on where you are), if the police want to move you you are entitled to ask why and according to which piece of legislation. I'm not 100% on this but I think they have to supply a the appropriate paperwork if it's requested. Also bear in mind that the police have no right to shift you from private property bordering the perimeter (I think as long as it's not airport-owned) unless specifically asked to do so by the owner(s), and even then as far as I'm aware this requires a civil action.

Once again, the law isn't always in black-and-white, and even when it is it isn't!

Karl
 
picturethis
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Mon Jan 12, 2009 8:45 pm



Quoting JakTrax (Reply 35):
Take EMA for example. How many times do you think those Securicor guys (on the INSIDE of the fence) try and shift us from the mound by 27? Frequently. Now policing the landside areas isn't down to them and they are powerless to move people, however the local plod round there seem to be good at the art of intimidation.

East Midlands tends to vary for me. All the times i've been approached (twice in 3 years), its been the Police, who always tell me to go to the end of 27, and they always speak to me at the same spot - probably because its near the cafe where they have coffee breaks so it seems.

Never had any problems from any other security firms.
Make sure they know we're playing the game, but we don't need to play the game because we've already won the game.
 
conoramoia
Posts: 481
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:04 pm

Never Had This At MAN Before, Have You?

Thu Jan 15, 2009 1:06 pm

At GWY(small airport on west coast of Ireland) I was standing in a high field(of which i knew the owner)the control tower spotted me and sent a fire engine and a jeep over to check who I was I ,I can understand why I would look suspicious standing in a field pointing a long lens at a plane but why would they come back and ask who I am if I had been spotting there often,had been seen by the airport authorities and knew more than 1 person working there(one happens to be an atc controller,that was not on duty)?

Thanks,

Conor
 
AndyEastMids
Posts: 1051
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 10:24 pm

Never Had This At MAN Before, Have You?

Thu Jan 15, 2009 4:20 pm



Quoting Bjcc (Reply 20):
The reason a DOB is asked for is twofold. One, its one of the parameters needed for a PNC check. There is nothing on that you don't know, unless you are wanted. Even then you'd probably realise it. The second reason is that the rules on stops mean that a form has to be submitted for the Home Office, DOB is again one of the parameters asked for. It means the HO can publish pointless stats on stop and search

For the most part, you are not required to provide name or DOB on a stop and search:

You don’t have to give your name, address or date of birth to the police if you’re stopped and searched unless you’re being reported for an offence

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/police/powers/stop-and-search/

And indeed I wouldn't - no need to give the Rozzers any more information than is necessary, certainly not enough to allow them to uniquely identify me!

A

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