chuck9941
Posts: 176
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2005 2:58 pm

Great Photo But...

Tue Dec 01, 2009 6:00 pm

Since there have been a few subjective posts lately I might as well add another.

I like the photo don't get me wrong but the photo of the A-300 Super Transporter just seems like it should have received a distance rejection. I know such an issue is subjective and I understand the motive of having the contrails but they just don't seem to add anything to the photo to me and it just seems like there is a lot of dead space. It just seems like part of the reason its on TOD is partly because the aircraft is so small in the frame that you give it a hit just to see what it is. Again nothing against Denis.

Thoughts?

Ironically by posting this I'm probably going to be helping to increase the hits as well.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Denis Roschlau - AirTeamImages

Oh, it's a big pretty white plane with red stripes, curtains in the windows and wheels and it looks like a big Tylenol.
 
damien846
Posts: 629
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2006 2:45 am

RE: Great Photo But...

Tue Dec 01, 2009 6:27 pm



Quoting Chuck9941 (Thread starter):
Ironically by posting this I'm probably going to be helping to increase the hits as well.

As it already has 16k hits I dont think it matters...
Plenty of shots like this already in the DB...theres nothing wrong with it. Its a great shot and should be in the Db...
 
LAXspotr
Posts: 22
Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 8:08 am

RE: Great Photo But...

Tue Dec 01, 2009 6:39 pm

This is a bit of a silly post.

Denis' shot is no different from many others previously accepted into the database in regards to crop. It's unique, however, as it showcases an aircraft type rarely captured inflight.

A 2 minute search on the site and I can pull up the following with....contrails, a slightly loose crop, and a fair amount of distance - who would've thought.



View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Ander Aguirre - AirTeamImages




View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Javier Gonzalez - Iberian Spotters




- Josh May
 
JakTrax
Posts: 4661
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RE: Great Photo But...

Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:59 pm

I don't necessarily agree with the opinions expressed by the OP but he's entitled to his opinion and locking this thread would be as 'silly' as the thread itself.

This thread-locking lark is isolating the very people A.net claims to rely on.

Karl
 
codeshare
Posts: 1689
Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2002 2:23 am

RE: Great Photo But...

Tue Dec 01, 2009 8:02 pm

Pretty soon we'll end up discussing a simple side shot of a US Airways A320 or KLM 777. Come on. It's a nice shot.

Quoting Chuck9941 (Thread starter):
It just seems like part of the reason its on TOD is partly because the aircraft is so small in the frame that you give it a hit just to see what it is.

I did give it a hit :P You know what, I think Dennis should get lens with more zoom. But it's a Super Transporter, not your everyday 737 or anything else.

KS/codeshare
How much A is there is Airliners Net ? 0 or nothing ?
 
beechcraft
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RE: Great Photo But...

Tue Dec 01, 2009 8:54 pm

Hi all,

i wont comment too much on my photo As
obviously i Kind of like it and i think it Works ok.

However i find it a Bit disturbing that lately we're questioning accepted Photos here...

BTW, i have longer lenses, they
just don't fit into The Cockpit  Smile

Denis
That's it! You people have stood in my way long enough. I'm going to clown college!
 
spencer
Posts: 1518
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RE: Great Photo But...

Tue Dec 01, 2009 8:57 pm

Another fantastic shot Den!
Spence.
EOS1D4, 7D, 30D, 100-400/4.5-5.6 L IS USM, 70-200/2.8 L IS2 USM, 17-40 f4 L USM, 24-105 f4 L IS USM, 85 f1.8 USM
 
ake0404ar
Posts: 2379
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RE: Great Photo But...

Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:29 pm



Quoting Beechcraft (Reply 5):
just don't fit into The Cockpit

I thought you were flying the big ones now....otherwise you have to shoot from seat 1C......

V.
 
NIKV69
Posts: 10909
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

RE: Great Photo But...

Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:29 pm



Quoting Beechcraft (Reply 5):
However i find it a Bit disturbing that lately we're questioning accepted Photos here...

I find it more than a bit disturbing that the moderators here have been allowing this sort of behavior. Suggestions are great but now a pattern has developed. Now we are simply getting rants from the chatterclass. I will exclude Flo because he usually doesn't post threads like he has done with the bathroom pic but there are many here that are always engaging in this deplorable behavior. A rant is a rant and long term it will have bad results. Some of these photogs that upload these great shots may hesistate if they feel a thread will surface meaning it's open season on accepted pics from the photogs that can't get similiar photos in. Clearly I see no reason why a rule can't be established that threads questioning a pic in the DB are no longer allowed and email should be used. Will harsh penalties in place. Will someone be brave enough to do this? Or do we have to endure these sour grape rants that insult the photog?
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
EZEIZA
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RE: Great Photo But...

Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:09 pm



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 8):
Clearly I see no reason why a rule can't be established that threads questioning a pic in the DB are no longer allowed and email should be used.

I do agree that this shot is nice and it deserves to be in the db, but I disagree at the concept of forbidding to post on the accepted pics. I thini it's valid to criticise (good and bad) on other shots. At the end of the day, if most feel the criticism is BS, then there's no need to reply to it. What I can't stand is the thread locking that goes on way too often.  Wink
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
chuck9941
Posts: 176
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2005 2:58 pm

RE: Great Photo But...

Wed Dec 02, 2009 12:43 am

Apparently most on here overlooked the fact that I said I liked the photo.

Quoting Chuck9941 (Thread starter):
I like the photo don't get me wrong bu

The questioning was to the subjectivity of such photos and to be used as a learning too by knowing more of what acceptable limits are of things such as a loose crop or a fair amount of distance.

Quoting LAXspotr (Reply 2):
A 2 minute search on the site and I can pull up the following with....contrails, a slightly loose crop, and a fair amount of distance -

This type of information is valuable to submitters who may not be the best of photographers or have a lot of photos in the db but are looking to improve both the quality of their photos and the amount accepted to the db. A better understanding will allow someone to maybe post a photo that they felt might not be accepted for these reasons and didn't want to fill up the queue with rubbish.

Unfortunately any type of questioning about a photo is taken to be an attack on the photographer rather its intention of being a constructive learning environment. Isn't that what the discussion forum is about?

Again this was not an attack on Denis nor his work as he has many great shots it the db.
Oh, it's a big pretty white plane with red stripes, curtains in the windows and wheels and it looks like a big Tylenol.
 
sluger020889
Posts: 404
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RE: Great Photo But...

Wed Dec 02, 2009 12:49 am

Why don't we just pick one photo a day and question its acceptance, complain about it, and drag it through the mud?

Joey
I would love to fly a cargo plane full of rubber dog shit out of Hong Kong!
 
NIKV69
Posts: 10909
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RE: Great Photo But...

Wed Dec 02, 2009 1:21 am



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 9):
if most feel the criticism is BS, then there's no need to reply to it

Again your only thinking about youself, whch has become a pattern with these rants. Take a minute to think of the photog who has gone to the airport, got the capture and got the acceptance, on top of becoming top of day. Only to come here and see you criticizing it because of the loathing you feel when you get rejections. It's totally classless, useless and petty. It needs to stop. If you have a beef, email the screeners. We don't need the obstuctionist agenda any more.

Quoting Chuck9941 (Reply 10):
Apparently most on here overlooked the fact that I said I liked the photo.

No we didn't. Using the word "but.." doesn't give you a pass from starting this rant thread and insulting another photog. One that gives up his own time to screen your images.

Quoting Chuck9941 (Reply 10):
The questioning was to the subjectivity of such photos and to be used as a learning too by knowing more of what acceptable limits are of things such as a loose crop or a fair amount of distance

You have done that a number of ways without including the pic, there is no accecptance ratio anymore so you can upload at will, or simply ask the question without dragging someone else into it.

Quoting Chuck9941 (Reply 10):
Unfortunately any type of questioning about a photo is taken to be an attack on the photographer rather its intention of being a constructive learning environment. Isn't that what the discussion forum is about?

You don't need to include others to achieve the desired result. You can post your own pics or if you have to use other photog's pics do it via email to one of the head screeners and ask your question. I know Tim or Gary et al will help. I tried it and Gary helped me more than he needed to and was always willing to answer me. So stop the grandstanding.

Quoting Sluger020889 (Reply 11):
Why don't we just pick one photo a day and question its acceptance, complain about it, and drag it through the mud?

Don't give them any ideas Joey.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
EZEIZA
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RE: Great Photo But...

Wed Dec 02, 2009 1:29 am



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 12):
Again your only thinking about youself, whch has become a pattern with these rants. Take a minute to think of the photog who has gone to the airport, got the capture and got the acceptance, on top of becoming top of day. Only to come here and see you criticizing it because of the loathing you feel when you get rejections. It's totally classless, useless and petty. It needs to stop. If you have a beef, email the screeners. We don't need the obstuctionist agenda any more.

When was I thinking about myself? please specify ...

All I am saying is that I don't agree with the prohibition of making a public critique on an accepted picture. Just as there are threads that are made to show amazing pictures, I don't see it wrong to have the more questionable ones posted. Then it's up to you to post or give an opinion or not.
Everyone that uploads a picture here is for the exposure it gets, and by making a picture public, criticism IMHO should be welcomed, both positive and negative alike, always in a respectful manner. And besides, it will give the picture a lot of hits

And in this specific case, I agree with the acceptance, it's a beautiful picture of a rare a/c
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
NIKV69
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RE: Great Photo But...

Wed Dec 02, 2009 1:53 am

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 13):
When was I thinking about myself? please specify ...

You posted that if we don't like it not to read. Totally ignoring the fact that we are against these threads because they are a nuisance to read. We just don't need photogs work as Joey said dragged through the mud. We are thinking big picture, not just ourselves.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 13):
All I am saying is that I don't agree with the prohibition of making a public critique on an accepted picture. Just as there are threads that are made to show amazing pictures, I don't see it wrong to have the more questionable ones posted. Then it's up to you to post or give an opinion or not

Read what the OP wrote.

Quoting Chuck9941 (Thread starter):
A-300 Super Transporter just seems like it should have received a distance rejection.

It's callling out the site and it's crew. Again with words like these an email to the screeners would have worked better. With that sentence your slagging the photog.

[Edited 2009-12-01 18:25:03]
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
User avatar
JeffM
Posts: 7569
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RE: Great Photo But...

Wed Dec 02, 2009 2:11 am



Quoting Chuck9941 (Thread starter):
just seems like it should have received a distance rejection.

...many of us agree....but....you know how that goes.
 
EZEIZA
Posts: 4421
Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2004 12:09 am

RE: Great Photo But...

Wed Dec 02, 2009 2:25 am



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 14):
You posted that if we don't like it not to read. Totally ignoring the fact that we are against these threads because they are a nuisance to read. We just don't need photogs work as Joey said dragged through the mud. We are thinking big picture, not just ourselves.

yes, just as the threads in non-av. If you don't like to read them, there is no need for you to do so, as there are many threads I don't care about and don't post in them. This is a forum, and as such, we'll have interesting stuff and not so interesting stuff, as well as topics we like and topics we don't like. That's nature, so why not allow threads that can be critical?
I still don't understand how that = thinking about myself. I'm giving a suggestion, that's it.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 14):
Read what the OP wrote.

and I don't agree with the post. But why should anyone not be allowed to rise his/her concerns about an acceptance?
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
NIKV69
Posts: 10909
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

RE: Great Photo But...

Wed Dec 02, 2009 3:53 am



Quoting JeffM (Reply 15):
many of us agree....but....you know how that goes.

Yep we know Jeff you guys speak for many of the photogs that upload here.  sarcastic 

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 16):
yes, just as the threads in non-av. If you don't like to read them, there is no need for you to do so, as there are many threads I don't care about and don't post in them. This is a forum, and as such, we'll have interesting stuff and not so interesting stuff, as well as topics we like and topics we don't like. That's nature, so why not allow threads that can be critical?

This isn't non-av. In fact it couldn't be more different. You have a bunch of guys here that shoot together, and do many things together. You have screeners, non screeners but at the end of the day you should show some respect and decorum toward them whether you like them or not. Whether you think the shot should have been accepted or not. Whether you like them personally or not you shouldn't do stuff like this. It goes much further than telling someone to not open the thread but you insist on totally ignoring the fact that your making someone feel like complete shit. You do this because your agenda is to discredit the site, the screeners and how things are done. You should take some of your own advice and either ignore the pics or leave if you don't agree with what the screeners decide and if your "I just want to learn" line is geniune do it through email and not in a public forum.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 16):
But why should anyone not be allowed to rise his/her concerns about an acceptance?

Let me see.

#1. It's bad form to drag someones pic through the mud.

#2. Actually your wasting your time because everyone from Johan to the new owners, screenrs to the little old woman who lives in a shoe has told you that the screening process will never change.

#3. See #1 and #2.

#4. Even after this you still want to argue the fact it is better to do with an email to the screeners and or site owners.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
EZEIZA
Posts: 4421
Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2004 12:09 am

RE: Great Photo But...

Wed Dec 02, 2009 10:32 am



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 17):
You have screeners, non screeners but at the end of the day you should show some respect and decorum toward them whether you like them or not

We agree that every critique should be done with respect

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 17):
It goes much further than telling someone to not open the thread but you insist on totally ignoring the fact that your making someone feel like complete shit.

I see your point, but speaking only for myself here, I wouldn't feel like a complete crap if the thread would be about oneof my pictures. Maybe that's why I'm not seeing this as a problem.
One thing I may have forgotten to mention is that my idea is not for the negative criticism to mean that the picture should be reviewed by screeners and then pulled. If that would be the consequence, then no way I would agree with negative criticism.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 17):
You do this because your agenda is to discredit the site, the screeners and how things are done

Right, it's my agenda. Who cares about my family, especially taking care of my seven-month old daughter or going to work? screw that! my agenda is to discredit evil anet and nothing else!  Yeah sure
Nik, I have noticed through several threads that if anyone dares to criticize ANYTHING of tis site, you automatically get edgy and aggressive. While some of the things suggested might not be of your liking, you have to remember that this is a forum and everyone has the right to give their opinions. You are the one that is making this a personal matter.
A lot of great ideas came out of these threads, and anet has changed a few things because of the public concerns, so give it a break and allow people to ay what they want.
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
JakTrax
Posts: 4661
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2005 3:30 am

RE: Great Photo But...

Wed Dec 02, 2009 11:17 am



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 8):
I find it more than a bit disturbing that the moderators here have been allowing this sort of behavior

It's called free speech Nik; something about which you should know living in a democracy. How about the U.S. government take away your right to vote because you voted for the 'bad guys' last time? Or because you exprssed negative opinions about a certain party?

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 8):
Some of these photogs that upload these great shots may hesistate if they feel a thread will surface meaning it's open season on accepted pics from the photogs that can't get similiar photos in

Wouldn't bother me in the slightest. In fact it'd make me chuckle. If it's accepted here and I like it that's the end of the story, What happens afterwards is beyond my control.

On a final note Nik, you preach about this 'I' business but if we were to alter that to 'we' you'd have us for speaking on the behalf of others. No win, no win.
 
Stealthz
Posts: 5549
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 11:43 am

RE: Great Photo But...

Wed Dec 02, 2009 1:40 pm

One of the things that has irritated me about A.net in the years I have been a member.

The attitude that any attempt to discuss an accepted image is going to be an insult to the photographer.

We are adults(mostly) and should be able to discuss things in an adult manner.

Tastes, styles and heaven forbid, acceptence criteria, change over time. It is only right that the community be able to discuss these things.

The ability to illustrate the conversation is important and should not be banned.

If Nik is successful in his campaign to ban such threads then the site will have taken a step backward into it's own dark ages.
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
 
EZEIZA
Posts: 4421
Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2004 12:09 am

RE: Great Photo But...

Wed Dec 02, 2009 1:56 pm



Quoting StealthZ (Reply 20):
The attitude that any attempt to discuss an accepted image is going to be an insult to the photographer.

We are adults(mostly) and should be able to discuss things in an adult manner.

Tastes, styles and heaven forbid, acceptence criteria, change over time. It is only right that the community be able to discuss these things.

 checkmark   checkmark   checkmark 

agree 110%
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
leadingedge
Posts: 55
Joined: Sun May 06, 2007 4:24 am

RE: Great Photo But...

Wed Dec 02, 2009 2:20 pm

If you publish a book, produce a play, or exhibit a painting then you can expect the critics and public to express an opinion. I fail to see the difference here.

Ref Jemm M's point; I suspect he speaks for those who like the picture but knowing the rules would have expected a rejection in this case. Perhaps he and those who are like minded should be glad to know that such pictures can now be acceptable.

"Now we are simply getting rants from the chatterclass" Hey Nik69 that seems like part of a great example of a rant to me!
 
NIKV69
Posts: 10909
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

RE: Great Photo But...

Wed Dec 02, 2009 3:03 pm



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 18):
We agree that every critique should be done with respect

Oh yea starting the thread with the words "should have been rejected" is just so respectful.  sarcastic 

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 18):
One thing I may have forgotten to mention is that my idea is not for the negative criticism to mean that the picture should be reviewed by screeners and then pulled. If that would be the consequence, then no way I would agree with negative criticism

Oh how nice of you to leave the pic in the DB. The way these rant threads are progressing I am surprised someone hasn't suggested voting on pics to see if they stay in.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 18):
Nik, I have noticed through several threads that if anyone dares to criticize ANYTHING of tis site, you automatically get edgy and aggressive. While some of the things suggested might not be of your liking, you have to remember that this is a forum and everyone has the right to give their opinions

That is because these threads are nothing more than rants designed to try to get the site to cave into your demands and then your banter after they refuse to do so. It isn't about opinions. It's about loathing and apathy toward something you have no control over. Something you would think would sink in after so much time.

Quoting JakTrax (Reply 19):
It's called free speech Nik; something about which you should know living in a democracy. How about the U.S. government take away your right to vote because you voted for the 'bad guys' last time? Or because you exprssed negative opinions about a certain party?

So now your comparing the site to the US government? We don't vote on how things are done here. We can only make suggestions. You don't have to upload your pictures here and posting these useless threads every time you get jealous that a pic has made it to the home page is not democracy. It's immaturity. You can have all the free speech you want. It's just time for some new material.

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 20):
One of the things that has irritated me about A.net in the years I have been a member.

The attitude that any attempt to discuss an accepted image is going to be an insult to the photographer.

We are adults(mostly) and should be able to discuss things in an adult manner.

Again just because you feel a certain way doesn't mean many or all the other photogs that upload feel the same. Take a second to think of them and not just you.

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 20):
Tastes, styles and heaven forbid, acceptence criteria, change over time. It is only right that the community be able to discuss these things

Well two out of three isn't bad. You have been told over the years the acceptance criteria #1 will never change, and #2 if the site decides to do so will not be done with our input. So why beat it into the ground and take a photogs money shot with you? It's totally wrong.

Quoting Leadingedge (Reply 22):
If you publish a book, produce a play, or exhibit a painting then you can expect the critics and public to express an opinion. I fail to see the difference here.

Huge difference the critics are usually not peers. I have always read that the "community" thing was so strong here. That the photogs have a strong bond of friendship etc. I guess that all goes out the window when you are mad your last shot got a motive rejection and you see something getting 20K hits huh? It's lame, real lame.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
EZEIZA
Posts: 4421
Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2004 12:09 am

RE: Great Photo But...

Wed Dec 02, 2009 3:14 pm



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 23):
Oh yea starting the thread with the words "should have been rejected" is just so respectful

the OP then also asked "thoughts?" . That to me does not seem like a disrespectful way of asking something.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 23):
Oh how nice of you to leave the pic in the DB. The way these rant threads are progressing I am surprised someone hasn't suggested voting on pics to see if they stay in.

sorry for clarifying my view.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 23):
That is because these threads are nothing more than rants designed to try to get the site to cave into your demands and then your banter after they refuse to do so. It isn't about opinions

No, they are not rants. They are threads asking for opinions, and averyone is entitled to post their opinion. If you are taking them as rants, then it's your problem, because every time something comes up your only excuse is that they are rants. You are hte one who makes a huge deal about everything, and to be honest, it is getting old.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 23):
We don't vote on how things are done here. We can only make suggestions.

And it is being SUGGESTED that accepted -as well as rejected- pictures can be criticized.
We all know that the site will have the last word on the subject, but what is wrong with suggesting???

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 23):
You can have all the free speech you want. It's just time for some new material.

and for once, posting negative criticism would be new material.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 23):
That the photogs have a strong bond of friendship etc

Among my spotter firends we always criticize are shots, for good and for bad. In fact, part of friendship is being able to tell the truth about one's opinion.
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
leadingedge
Posts: 55
Joined: Sun May 06, 2007 4:24 am

RE: Great Photo But...

Wed Dec 02, 2009 3:45 pm



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 23):
Huge difference the critics are usually not peers. I have always read that the "community" thing was so strong here. That the photogs have a strong bond of friendship etc. I guess that all goes out the window when you are mad your last shot got a motive rejection and you see something getting 20K hits huh? It's lame, real lame.

I have to disagree with you there. If you exhibit your work you should expect to receive comments from anyone who cares to share their opinion. You can then agree or disagree as you see fit but you have no right to feel affronted by the expression of opinion, unless it is insincere of course. Holding your work up to public view and denying people the right to comment other than to praise your efforts is pretty vain if you ask me.
 
waketurbulence
Posts: 1264
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2004 12:33 pm

RE: Great Photo But...

Wed Dec 02, 2009 4:12 pm



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 23):
You have been told over the years the acceptance criteria #1 will never change, and #2 if the site decides to do so will not be done with our input.

You are flat out wrong there. The creative images that are now WAY more accepted came about because photographers in the forum specifically lobbied to have the motive criteria loosened.

That said I do believe this thread is baseless, specifically because there are many examples of shots like this already on Anet.

Calling out a shot is not all in bad form (especially if it is groundbreaking ie nothing like it on Anet) but for this example a search would have answered the question.
-Matt
 
viv
Posts: 2953
Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 5:17 pm

RE: Great Photo But...

Wed Dec 02, 2009 4:38 pm



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 17):
you guys

To whom do you refer? Be specific and exhaustive.
Nikon D700, Nikkor 80-400, Fuji X Pro 1, Fujinon 35 f/1.4, Fujinon 18 f/2
 
JakTrax
Posts: 4661
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2005 3:30 am

RE: Great Photo But...

Wed Dec 02, 2009 4:57 pm



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 23):
So now your comparing the site to the US government? We don't vote on how things are done here. We can only make suggestions. You don't have to upload your pictures here and posting these useless threads every time you get jealous that a pic has made it to the home page is not democracy. It's immaturity. You can have all the free speech you want. It's just time for some new material

It's a similie, not a direct comparsion. And extending the right of free speech includes a desire to be as immature as an individual sees fit. Whether it's time for 'new material' is irrelevant - issues raised in 'old material' need to be sorted before we embark on anything else! If people want to go over 'old material' that's their prerogative, and you have no right to try and put a plug in it. If you don't like what you read, don't contribute; or better still, don't read at all. You are promoting free speech but at the same time calling for its abolition by pressing for the topic to either evolve or be closed.

Quoting Leadingedge (Reply 25):
Holding your work up to public view and denying people the right to comment other than to praise your efforts is pretty vain if you ask me

Indeed! If you seek praise but can't take criticism then you shouldn't be uploading here (not that I'm criticising the image in question here). I remember as an enthusiastic 17-year-old a very well respected photographer looking at my work and being VERY critical; almost to the point of being rude. I was a bit hurt by it all but a few years later I realised that this guy's insults had actually made me into a much better photographer. He said one day I'd thank him for it!

Katl
 
Psych
Posts: 2944
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2004 1:17 am

RE: Great Photo But...

Wed Dec 02, 2009 5:32 pm

So much for my promise to myself not to be drawn in to discussions at the moment - I am my own worst enemy!

I have to say there is some really woolly thinking going on in some of the recent debates we have seen here. Some people are mixing up process and content. It is as though if the process is wrong (or not ideal) then the underlying content, by definition, is also wrong. That's sloppy.

I am going to leave aside the issue of people commenting on already accepted images. I am a fan of Denis and clearly for me his is a very nice photo - definitely within the rules. Where I have some sympathy with the original poster is that he may be struggling to work out why an image of a small plane with a vapour trail taking up the majority of the photo is deemed acceptable, yet other photos where the subject may be much larger, but not taking up the whole crop, will get a distance rejection. It doesn't mean his question is right, and the rules are wrong, but it is a question for which there should be an answer.

Some A.net criteria are idiosyncratic, and don't have an internal consistency. I am not saying they are right or wrong - just that they don't have a clear 'philosophy' running through them which is easy for all to see. e.g. the distance theme is a good example, or another one is why effectively landscape photos taken from the air with a minimal amount of aircraft structure in them are deemed acceptable. Another of my favourites is why some photos will be rejected for motive because of the way an element of the aircraft is cropped, whereas others where half the tailfin of the aircraft is cropped off unnecessarily and the fuselage is centred (so there is half a photo of nothing but tarmac below) are deemed fine. To me those crops look totally awkward and far less pleasing to the eye then some others which are rejected.

The issue is - do I as a member have to just accept that this is the way it has always been and therefore is going to be, or can I question the rationale and ask for clarification? Is change possible? Even ignoring that old chestnut of motive we are still left with some interesting questions about why some things are okay and others aren't.

There is a real danger here these days that it becomes impossible to properly discuss these kinds of issues. Certainly I am struggling to remember two way productive debates, which have included full screener/site management participation. I realise that does not mean no-one is listening - and we have recent evidence that some concerns have been acted upon - but there is still a lack of healthy debate. Too many people believe that if you raise your head above the parapet and ask the question you will be vilified by many on this Forum. That is no way for a forward thinking and developing site to behave.

My plea - don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. If you feel the process of the comments/question are wrong you should have a right of reply to say so. But don't lose sight of what the underlying issue is all about.

Paul
 
JakTrax
Posts: 4661
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RE: Great Photo But...

Wed Dec 02, 2009 5:47 pm



Quoting Psych (Reply 29):
Where I have some sympathy with the original poster is that he may be struggling to work out why an image of a small plane with a vapour trail taking up the majority of the photo is deemed acceptable, yet other photos where the subject may be much larger, but not taking up the whole crop, will get a distance rejection

I think this is fairly simply explained. In the case of a photo like Denis's the distance is obviously deliberate and therefore falls within the rules. When an image appears to have been sloppily cropped or badly composed it stands out as a motive issue. No-one in their right mind (I hope!) would take a photo like Denis's and try to pass it off as a regular side-on profile - however if an image is clearly intended to be a side-on profile or similar and there is too much space around the subject it becomes apparent that it's either a bad crop or a not-so-carefully thought-out shot.

Most of us here - let alone screeners - can tell the difference between something which is 'meant to be' and something that's just trying to masquerade as somehting else. The angles, light and crop are usually the best indications.

Karl
 
chuck9941
Posts: 176
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RE: Great Photo But...

Wed Dec 02, 2009 6:14 pm



Quoting Leadingedge (Reply 22):
Ref Jemm M's point; I suspect he speaks for those who like the picture but knowing the rules would have expected a rejection in this case. Perhaps he and those who are like minded should be glad to know that such pictures can now be acceptable.



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 24):
Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 23):
Oh yea starting the thread with the words "should have been rejected" is just so respectful

the OP then also asked "thoughts?" . That to me does not seem like a disrespectful way of asking s

Whole point of the original thread.
Oh, it's a big pretty white plane with red stripes, curtains in the windows and wheels and it looks like a big Tylenol.
 
Psych
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RE: Great Photo But...

Wed Dec 02, 2009 6:27 pm



Quoting JakTrax (Reply 30):
In the case of a photo like Denis's the distance is obviously deliberate

Denis will know, as many of us do, that such photos are considered acceptable. The 'content' issue here is 'why'. Who decided that? What was the reason? Let me be clear - because you have to do that here - I am very happy to see Denis' photo here. I would not argue against it.

Just as an example:

Big version: Width: 700 Height: 466 File size: 406kb
A definite distance rejection

Edited just for this  wink .

Now this photo works for me - It was 'deliberate'. The departing aircraft in its context on this lovely Greek island - shows the proximity to the sea; the runway; the whole environment, how close your villa might be to the aircraft etc. Plus my lens wasn't long enough for much else at high quality. Now my experience at A.net helps me know this would not work for here - it would receive a distance rejection. Someone uninitiated into the vagaries of the A.net world might ask why Denis' shot with the smaller aircraft is okay and mine with the bigger aircraft is rejected. I have a rationale in my mind - the A.net rationale - but that doesn't necessarily mean one works and the other doesn't.

It is a reasonable question and a member should have the right to ask it. They are not simply a buffoon because they don't 'get it'. If they don't ask in the right way, are rude, or disrespectful, then take them to task for that. But don't lose sight in all the furore of what the question was about.

Paul
 
NIKV69
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RE: Great Photo But...

Wed Dec 02, 2009 6:36 pm



Quoting JakTrax (Reply 30):
I think this is fairly simply explained. In the case of a photo like Denis's the distance is obviously deliberate and therefore falls within the rules. When an image appears to have been sloppily cropped or badly composed it stands out as a motive issue. No-one in their right mind (I hope!) would take a photo like Denis's and try to pass it off as a regular side-on profile - however if an image is clearly intended to be a side-on profile or similar and there is too much space around the subject it becomes apparent that it's either a bad crop or a not-so-carefully thought-out shot.

Most of us here - let alone screeners - can tell the difference between something which is 'meant to be' and something that's just trying to masquerade as somehting else. The angles, light and crop are usually the best indications

Most of us can see through the smoke screen here. The toilet shot that went TOD and photog's choice is still a sore spot for the chatterclass here and sadly this shot was made to keep the flame burning since the topic was in danger of fading and that just can't happen for those individuals who just can't let it go without spamming this forum with posts that are masqueraded as "constructive criticism" as has been stated. A quick search would have cleared up why this shot was not only accepted but home page which it more than deserved. Going forward I would think the moderators are more than able to decipher what is a rant and what is a geniune post looking for help. The topic of what pics both standard and creative get in has been beaten to death and to further beat it just makes no sense not to mention having photogs not even involved to see their pics posted and questioned.

Sure you can say "you have to deal with it" or "it's just constructive" but this merely spin. It's a shame that the same few here have to drag people that have no involvement short just shooting at the airport and uploading but it has been tolerated and just gets worse. For a second time I ask the site and mods to get involved both from a group and individual standpoint to stop these threads. There is no reason why a person can't post his own shots for critique or use email to question a head screener why a shot got in. Not only would it stop this but probably lead to a quicker more accurate answer.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
JakTrax
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RE: Great Photo But...

Wed Dec 02, 2009 6:51 pm

I'm afraid Nik that as soon as you upload your shots here you are in effect 'consenting' to criticism of your images. Whatever anyone says, freedom of speech must incorporate all eventualities - including sometimes those a handful or even a majority find not only boring but offensive. That's ultimately the beauty of it. We often see on TV political groups whipping up hatred for one thing or another but without this freedom we wouln't be who we are; nor would we be any sort of fair society. And that's what we are here - a society.

As for me, it'd be hard to offend me here. I couldn't care less what anyone thinks of my shots as long as I'm satisfied. Criticise any of my images here and I shan't lose any sleep. They were good enough to get past the screeners and the buck stops there. In return I expect to be allowed to express my opinions about other's work, so long as I aren't deliberately and down-right abusive. If there is a point to be made, and it's a valid one, it needs to be made.

Plus look at these threads on the bright side - they've at least got the forum moving again!

Karl
 
chuck9941
Posts: 176
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2005 2:58 pm

RE: Great Photo But...

Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:32 pm



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 33):
The toilet shot that went TOD and photog's choice is still a sore spot for the chatterclass here and sadly this shot was made to keep the flame burning since the topic was in danger of fading and that just can't happen for those individuals who just can't let it go without spamming this forum with posts that are masqueraded as "constructive criticism" as has been stated.

Where is the relevance of this shot to the topic of the OP? By bringing it into this discussion you are only fueling what you speak against of.

as someone with 100 something posts most of which are pre/post screening or information about spotting locations where would I qualify as chatterclass? Nor did I comment on the post about the toilet eventhough I read the thread.

There have been many logical, rational opinions and replies in addition to a general understanding of what the original intent was. To which you have done nothing but disagree upon everything being said, suggested and interpreted. This post was never an attack yet you are making habit of doing so to anyone who doesn't agree with you 100%

I accept the fact people agree with the original question of my post. I gain a better understanding and I move on. I may try to upload a similar type of photo and if it gets accepted great, if it doesn't I move on to the next one.

Quoting Psych (Reply 29):
There is a real danger here these days that it becomes impossible to properly discuss these kinds of issues. Certainly I am struggling to remember two way productive debates, which have included full screener/site management participation. I realise that does not mean no-one is listening - and we have recent evidence that some concerns have been acted upon - but there is still a lack of healthy debate. Too many people believe that if you raise your head above the parapet and ask the question you will be vilified by many on this Forum.

Oh, it's a big pretty white plane with red stripes, curtains in the windows and wheels and it looks like a big Tylenol.
 
viv
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RE: Great Photo But...

Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:33 pm

As has been said, anyone who uploads shots here is entitled to have those shots praised for their quality.

By the same token, he is also subject to criticism of those shots for their shortcomings.

To abolish this symmetry by allowing only praise and not criticism would be to stifle real discussion of the shots concerned.

I hope this thread is not locked, notwithstanding some of the intemperate posts that have been made.
Nikon D700, Nikkor 80-400, Fuji X Pro 1, Fujinon 35 f/1.4, Fujinon 18 f/2
 
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eksath
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RE: Great Photo But...

Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:36 pm

So as a proud member of the "chatter class", I like to say that i LIKE the picture. I have no issues with it. It is a bit far but hey we have been having these contrail type shots in there for a while now.


Lets keep this thread on track as opposed to off topic. I hope we have more more constructive threads now that the board has been cleared of the mess of photo acceptance threads!

(remember it is the chatterclass that got "watermarks" and stopped the new management photo rights grab of 2007. Imagine this website if the chatterclass was silenced?)
World Wide Aerospace Photography
 
Psych
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RE: Great Photo But...

Wed Dec 02, 2009 8:06 pm

A bit like someone picking at a healing wound, I am back to see what is happening in this thread!

I really think genuine questions are being asked about elements of decision making in screening. That is not the same as slagging off screeners or their decisions. We should stop fighting battles, avoid any 'us' vs. 'them' mentality and create a space to discuss some of the themes that have been building up here over the last month or two. Such a debate does not mean decisions are wrong or rejection criteria are misplaced. Just that if neither of those things are true then they should be easily explained. 'That's the way it is' is no defense. I would welcome that debate + I would be arguing that Denis's photo should be accepted. Any 'management' worth its salt will welcome well constructed feedback and should be open to consider making changes for the good of the site and its membership. It should be available to its membership to provide clarification when it is asked for and/or required. We have seen how some of this is possible with recent decisions on the role of the acceptance ratio and the restructuring of this Forum.

If you really think this is the 'proletariat', 'plebs', 'chattering classes' (or whatever you want to call them) simply whining until they get their way then - just in my opinion - you are advocating a community and a culture I (and I am sure others, though of course I can only speak for myself) would want to have nothing to do with.

Paul
 
EZEIZA
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RE: Great Photo But...

Wed Dec 02, 2009 8:21 pm



Quoting Viv (Reply 36):
As has been said, anyone who uploads shots here is entitled to have those shots praised for their quality.

By the same token, he is also subject to criticism of those shots for their shortcomings.

exactly. That's what I have been trying to say and as stated, once you decide to upload a shot for the public to see, then the public has the right to give a positive or negative critique. And for the record, I too believe it's a nice shot and it's a nice addition to the db.
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
Sharpshooter
Posts: 33
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RE: Great Photo But...

Wed Dec 02, 2009 8:33 pm



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 33):
For a second time I ask the site and mods to get involved both from a group and individual standpoint to stop these threads.

Maybe you'd have more success in that area if you followed some of your own advice and e-mailed them directly with your concerns?

Quoting Chuck9941 (Reply 35):
To which you have done nothing but disagree upon everything being said, suggested and interpreted.

Modus operandi.
 
Silver1SWA
Crew
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RE: Great Photo But...

Wed Dec 02, 2009 8:39 pm



Quoting Psych (Reply 38):
Any 'management' worth its salt will welcome well constructed feedback and should be open to consider making changes for the good of the site and its membership. It should be available to its membership to provide clarification when it is asked for and/or required.

I agree with your statement, however I highlighted in bold a part that has been missing lately. There has been very little, almost no input at all from the screeners in these interesting debates. I wonder if we might be at a point where the folks behind the scenes have given up on trying to make us happy. After some of the comments immediately following the change to the ratio, a screener mentioned the proof that the membership will never be happy. We've had some very interesting threads as of late. Unfortunately no one behind the scenes has given any acknowledgment. I would rather a screener come in here and say "that's the way it is" instead of nothing at all.

We have to be careful not to take our debates too far. We can easily loose out credibility and be written off as chronic complainers. When I first saw this thread, my first reaction was ok now this is getting out hand. But as the debate developed and the OP, as well as the clear example posted by Paul in reply 32 shows, it became clear that the intended discussion is entirely reasonable.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
Sharpshooter
Posts: 33
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 6:41 am

RE: Great Photo But...

Wed Dec 02, 2009 8:44 pm



Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 41):
Unfortunately no one behind the scenes has given any acknowledgment.

Unfortunately? Debatable. I'd rather the screeners pound through the queue than worry about the bickering that goes on in the forum.
 
NIKV69
Posts: 10909
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

RE: Great Photo But...

Wed Dec 02, 2009 8:45 pm

Quoting Sharpshooter (Reply 40):
Maybe you'd have more success in that area if you followed some of your own advice and e-mailed them directly with your concerns?

They are more than aware of the situation.

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 41):
There has been very little, almost no input at all from the screeners in these interesting debates.

That is because they have made their position clear many times. Simply starting a new thread is not going to change this.




BTW check the home page and look at what is TOD. I am glad shots like that are allowed! It's a cracking shot. I am sure some here will find fault with it but I for one am glad shots like that are accepted. Maybe if the ones critical about these shots spent more time in the field and less here railing we would see more.

[Edited 2009-12-02 12:46:43]
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
Silver1SWA
Crew
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RE: Great Photo But...

Wed Dec 02, 2009 8:49 pm

Quoting Sharpshooter (Reply 42):
Unfortunately? Debatable. I'd rather the screeners pound through the queue than worry about the bickering that goes on in the forum.

True. But without screeners paying attention to these threads, then what is the point of all this "bickering"? Is this place really supposed to be nothing more than a sound-proof room where we can scream as loud as we can to get it out of our system?

It's not like screeners don't visit the forum. They are just very selective when it comes to who or what they respond to.

[Edited 2009-12-02 12:51:44]
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
EZEIZA
Posts: 4421
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RE: Great Photo But...

Wed Dec 02, 2009 8:58 pm



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 43):
BTW check the home page and look at what is TOD


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Ivandalavia



this shot? one of the best I've seen, and it'll probably go into the "wow" threads. Comparing this shot with the OP is pointless since they are completely different. Both are nice, but this one is amazing
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
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PanAm_DC10
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RE: Great Photo But...

Wed Dec 02, 2009 11:01 pm

It's perfectly legitimate to ask "why was this picture accepted?" if the purpose is to genuinely understand what rationale the screeners used to accept a specific picture, and why a certain rejection reason was not applied. This may be helpful for photographers who would like to submit similar pictures. However, it is preferable that no post be made to simply criticise accepted photographs. This is what happened with the bucket thread which ultimately resulted in it being locked.

The first avenue when questioning a photo that has been accepted to the database should be an email to screeners@airliners.net or headscreeners@airliners.net over a forum post.

The Moderator's role in any thread is to monitor and where necessary to delete posts which violate the rules irrespective of the opinion being expressed about the photo.

Regards

Paul
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