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eksath
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Dilution Of Quality In "PHOTOGRAPHERS' Choice" II

Tue Nov 30, 2010 3:18 pm

Come on people, VOTE!


While there is fantastic work represented, at least one slot is not representative of the high standards of Photographer's choice IDEALS. So it using up a slot that a more deserving shot would occupy. The system can be easily rigged and the example below is one such incident of many.

The current Mil- 17 static side shot from an unnamed country is a clear example of the dilution of the Photographer choice ideals. PC should not be based upon voting for one's buddy or one's country or one's airline or one's airforce PERIOD. It was meant to be for quality.


There are more than 3000 pictures of Mi -17 aircraft and even 3 others of this same aircraft.

We have talked about this before but still it goes on.

Dilution Of Quality In "PHOTOGRAPHERS' Choice" (by eksath Apr 24 2010 in Aviation Photography)?threadid=354292&searchid=354322&s=suresh#ID354322
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Samuel32
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RE: Dilution Of Quality In "PHOTOGRAPHERS' Choice" II

Tue Nov 30, 2010 6:11 pm

Most of the time its the same country, sadly. You can go through the top 15 and you can easily pick out the rigged ones. PC should be la creme de la creme, a source of inspiration and ideas.

I'll admit I don't vote too often, but more and more these last few months.

Sam,
 
hrtsfldhomeboy
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RE: Dilution Of Quality In "PHOTOGRAPHERS' Choice" II

Tue Nov 30, 2010 7:48 pm

I just voted for this ballin picture


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Zaninger Jonathan



Dayum!
 
sovietjet
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RE: Dilution Of Quality In "PHOTOGRAPHERS' Choice" II

Thu Dec 02, 2010 8:52 pm

Quoting eksath (Thread starter):
The current Mil- 17 static side shot from an unnamed country is a clear example of the dilution of the Photographer choice ideals. PC should not be based upon voting for one's buddy or one's country or one's airline or one's airforce PERIOD.

If you are talking about the Bulgarian Mi-17 the shot is neither static nor side-on. It was shot from another helicopter while the Mi-17 in question was doing an exercise, I think it created a unique effect with the vegetation around it. Regardless, the Bulgarian community on here is far too small to rig the votes. The shot became runner up PC before it even hit the front page as top 24. And I didn't vote for it since I had voted for another photo earlier. The photographer in question doesn't have too many photos on here and I believe this is the first time he got PC. I think you're pointing fingers at the wrong person/shot to prove your point (which is a valid one) IMHO

Quoting eksath (Thread starter):
There are more than 3000 pictures of Mi -17 aircraft and even 3 others of this same aircraft.

So just because a given type is not rare it doesn't deserve to become PC? Show me another Mi-17 shot with that kind of motive. I believe last week I saw a photo of yours of the Thunderbirds diamond in the PC top 15. According to your words, it should not have been in there because there's so many identical pictures of a Thunderbird diamond photo pass.

I understand your point and agree with it but I think your presented it wrong.

Just sayin
 
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cpd
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RE: Dilution Of Quality In "PHOTOGRAPHERS' Choice" II

Thu Dec 02, 2010 10:29 pm

Quoting sovietjet (Reply 3):
If you are talking about the Bulgarian Mi-17 the shot is neither static nor side-on. It was shot from another helicopter while the Mi-17 in question was doing an exercise

That shot was actually a damn good one, one of the most interesting photos of recent times on here.

I'll go away and continue taking my boring, unworthy landing/takeoff photos in lieu of being able to photograph space-shuttles or go up in fighter planes to photograph other fighter planes.
 
RonS
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RE: Dilution Of Quality In "PHOTOGRAPHERS' Choice" II

Thu Dec 02, 2010 10:55 pm

Quoting cpd (Reply 4):
continue taking my boring, unworthy landing/takeoff photos

At the ISO you've been shooting at lately I hardly call that boring!    Keep it up Chris!

Back to the OP. I agree with your first line:

Quoting eksath (Thread starter):
Come on people, VOTE!

That's what we really need. We don't have to point fingers, just point mouses.
All opinions expressed by me are my own opinions & do not represent the opinions in any way of my employers.
 
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NZ107
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RE: Dilution Of Quality In "PHOTOGRAPHERS' Choice" II

Thu Dec 02, 2010 10:56 pm

Quoting RonS (Reply 5):
That's what we really need. We don't have to point fingers, just point mouses.

It takes some effort to go through and find voteworthy pics though sometimes  
It's all about the destination AND the journey.
 
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cpd
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RE: Dilution Of Quality In "PHOTOGRAPHERS' Choice" II

Thu Dec 02, 2010 11:09 pm

My vote of recent times went to the Diamond DA-42 sunset photo. A bit different and it caught my eye.  
Quoting RonS (Reply 5):
At the ISO you've been shooting at lately I hardly call that boring! Keep it up Chris!

I was being sarcastic, as usual.  
 
Silver1SWA
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RE: Dilution Of Quality In "PHOTOGRAPHERS' Choice" II

Thu Dec 02, 2010 11:28 pm

Quoting sovietjet (Reply 3):
If you are talking about the Bulgarian Mi-17 the shot is neither static nor side-on.

I don't think you guys are talking about the same photo.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
Chukcha
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RE: Dilution Of Quality In "PHOTOGRAPHERS' Choice" II

Thu Dec 02, 2010 11:51 pm

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 8):
I don't think you guys are talking about the same photo.

I don't think so either. I believe, the one Suresh brought up [i]is[b/] a static side-on, and it is not from Bulgaria. A typical example of buddy-voting. Stopped climbing, though; seems like it has already received all the votes that were expected.
 
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johnr
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RE: Dilution Of Quality In "PHOTOGRAPHERS' Choice" II

Fri Dec 03, 2010 1:14 am

I think people are being a bit harsh on this photo, It's an interesting aircraft with the An-225 creating a nice back drop at a farely remote location that i dare say most people couldn't find on a map. There may be 3000 pictures of this type and even 3 of this very aircraft in the data base but as an exercise i looked up the stats for Southwest Airlines B737......12,814 total with no less than 1,505 at Las Vegas alone! This is this photographers second only photo in the DB, i'm sure he's feeling very welcome.
 
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RE: Dilution Of Quality In "PHOTOGRAPHERS' Choice" II

Fri Dec 03, 2010 1:17 am

Quoting sovietjet (Reply 3):
If you are talking about the Bulgarian Mi-17 the shot is neither static nor side-on.

Then I would imagine you are talking about 2 different pictures. The Bulgarian Mil-17 was on top 5 days ago and it deserved the top spot. Have you visited the Photographer's Choice section lately? There is a static, side-on shot of a Mi-17 that is currently listed as a contender. Suresh is probably talking about that one.

[Edited 2010-12-02 17:50:36]
Slower traffic, keep right
 
sovietjet
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RE: Dilution Of Quality In "PHOTOGRAPHERS' Choice" II

Fri Dec 03, 2010 6:01 am

Whoa, looks like I misunderstood. Just saw the Mi-17 in question now. Sorry for the confusion
 
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eksath
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RE: Dilution Of Quality In "PHOTOGRAPHERS' Choice" II

Fri Dec 03, 2010 6:13 am

I am glad we got it cleared up.

For the record, I am NOT referring to a picture from Bulgaria.

 

p.s. I ,too, have shot Mil 17s in unique hard to get places but that does not make my shots worthy of photographer's choice and I would actually be embarrassed if some of my undeserving boring side on shots made it to the top 15.
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ptrjong
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RE: Dilution Of Quality In "PHOTOGRAPHERS' Choice" II

Fri Dec 03, 2010 11:24 am

Quoting eksath (Reply 13):

The country is Iran. Why on earth don't you name it?

The voting nepotism is childish, but urging a few photographers to vote isn't going to help. Have there been viable proposals to improve the voting system? If that's too difficult, you'd better stop worrying about this.

Peter 
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Silver1SWA
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RE: Dilution Of Quality In "PHOTOGRAPHERS' Choice" II

Fri Dec 03, 2010 3:12 pm

Quoting unattendedbag (Reply 11):
Then I would imagine you are talking about 2 different pictures. The Bulgarian Mil-17 was on top 5 days ago and it deserved the top spot. Have you visited the Photographer's Choice section lately? There is a static, side-on shot of a Mi-17 that is currently listed as a contender. Suresh is probably talking about that one.

I see the photo has climbed positions considerably since the photo has been named. Some kind of a response to this thread perhaps?
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
sovietjet
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RE: Dilution Of Quality In "PHOTOGRAPHERS' Choice" II

Fri Dec 03, 2010 3:31 pm

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 15):
I see the photo has climbed positions considerably since the photo has been named. Some kind of a response to this thread perhaps?

Maybe. Last night I was up late studying for exams and noticed that it jumped really fast during the 5 minutes before the PC changes at 12AM PST.

Quoting ptrjong (Reply 14):
The voting nepotism is childish, but urging a few photographers to vote isn't going to help. Have there been viable proposals to improve the voting system? If that's too difficult, you'd better stop worrying about this.

I don't think it can be changed to avoid this abuse. The best way is in fact to have more people vote.
 
Numero4
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RE: Dilution Of Quality In "PHOTOGRAPHERS' Choice" II

Fri Dec 03, 2010 4:08 pm

Well, given the fact that only us photographers can vote, I don't quite grasp how everyone can vote for their buddies. My perception of aviation photography has changed dramatically the day I started editing photographs and uploading them here. Therefore, I see my vote as a little more (no sarcasm here!) 'enlightened' than most people who just browse. I do not believe (in my humble opinion) people vote for a photograph only because the type is or isn't rare.

I check 'new photos today' about 2-3 days a week and we all know that some days are poorer in terms of spectacular/exceptional shots.

Exceptional photos should be just that: there aren't new ones uploaded every day.
CYQB
 
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cpd
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RE: Dilution Of Quality In "PHOTOGRAPHERS' Choice" II

Sat Dec 04, 2010 12:42 am

Quoting sovietjet (Reply 16):
Maybe. Last night I was up late studying for exams and noticed that it jumped really fast during the 5 minutes before the PC changes at 12AM PST.

Wouldn't surprise me - such "games" have been played before. I don't normally vote on photographers choice that often. I only vote for very exceptional photos.
 
Asuspine
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RE: Dilution Of Quality In "PHOTOGRAPHERS' Choice" II

Sat Dec 04, 2010 4:36 pm

I can see visitors comments from only the same country on this first photo of a new photog. Congratulations, now they have one more vote.

May be there should be an option to vote against as well to take down ordinary photo from PC.

Regards

[Edited 2010-12-04 09:07:08]
HFK
 
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ghajdufi
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RE: Dilution Of Quality In "PHOTOGRAPHERS' Choice" II

Sat Dec 04, 2010 5:39 pm

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 15):
I see the photo has climbed positions considerably since the photo has been named. Some kind of a response to this thread perhaps?

I guess they rated all our photos 1* as well....
Your photos are like your children, you will always find them perfect.
 
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cpd
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RE: Dilution Of Quality In "PHOTOGRAPHERS' Choice" II

Sun Dec 05, 2010 1:14 am

You can always turn off comments and ratings.
 
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derekf
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RE: Dilution Of Quality In "PHOTOGRAPHERS' Choice" II

Sun Dec 05, 2010 2:12 am

The latest "choice" just beggars belief. Compare it to be beautiful F-22 shot currently in 2nd place. Is there any comparison?

I give up.
Whatever.......
 
Chukcha
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RE: Dilution Of Quality In "PHOTOGRAPHERS' Choice" II

Sun Dec 05, 2010 2:20 am

Quoting asuspine (Reply 19):

May be there should be an option to vote against as well to take down ordinary photo from PC.

That would be so-o-o abused... Same people who vote for their buddies would vote against everyone else.

Quoting cpd (Reply 21):
You can always turn off comments and ratings.

Why? Bad comments won't get through, only the good ones, and the star rating is meaningless anyway. Besides, nobody can see the rating but the photographer himself.

[Edited 2010-12-04 18:21:10]
 
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cpd
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RE: Dilution Of Quality In "PHOTOGRAPHERS' Choice" II

Sun Dec 05, 2010 2:25 am

Quoting derekf (Reply 22):
The latest "choice" just beggars belief. Compare it to be beautiful F-22 shot currently in 2nd place. Is there any comparison?

Well, what can you say, cabin photo, AN-225 all adds up to big views. I voted for the F22 Raptor.

Quoting Chukcha (Reply 23):
Why? Bad comments won't get through, only the good ones, and the star rating is meaningless anyway.

If someone is worried about the star rating, they can turn it off.
 
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RE: Dilution Of Quality In "PHOTOGRAPHERS' Choice" II

Sun Dec 05, 2010 6:26 am

Quoting cpd (Reply 24):
If someone is worried about the star rating, they can turn it off.

Someone worried about their star rating would want a star rating in the first place. So turning it off wouldn't be an option for that type of person...
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
zbot69
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RE: Dilution Of Quality In "PHOTOGRAPHERS' Choice"

Sun Dec 05, 2010 6:31 am

It's quite obvious that certain groups of photographers are very well organized and continue to send, pardon me for saying so, relatively mediocre fair to the top of the front page on a regular basis, and now I see increasingly PC shots. A.net might not find any problem with it, but I see plenty of problems with it. There are only so many 'prime real estate' spots on the web page that are guaranteed to garner attention, and when those become monopolized by photographers simply because they and a few buddies are dedicated enough to click their pals to the front for every dreary submission it does have an impact on overall views. The top quality photos drive the views to the rest of the database. Let me qualify that. I was following A.net for years as a casual visitor and would base my browsing almost solely on what was on the front page, and if it wasn't much I'd be on my merry way. The internet is just too big and there is too little time to process all the information and if A.net is hosting cabin shots and shirts hanging from the rafters, fine by me but I have better things to do with my time. Now I've been participating in the process as a photographer from time to time I'm starting to understand the dynamics of the site a bit better.

I think Chris has pointed out something all of us are guilty of, I know I am... and that's only investing time to vote PC for really outstanding submissions, which is far from frequent. My last PC vote was the night EK A380 landing, and I can't even remember my vote before that. Unfortunately I adhere to certain criteria wielding my PC vote... difficulty and aesthestics primarily.... I find 'rare' a/c shots not a valid criteria for voting a PC. Don't even get me started on have-access-and-camera-click. The front page should suffice.

I certainly don't vote on a regular basis. But if the only way to ensure that PC retains some semblance of meaning we're going to have to start making a concerted effort to drop by the site on a daily basis, and put our votes to use to make sure that 12 guys in some Internet cafe somewhere aren't wrecking the site with nonsense submissions.

So the solution is, I think, to get out and vote more frequently and ensure at least that the PC slots are representative of our finest work.

My 2 pennies.

[Edited 2010-12-04 22:32:34]
 
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cpd
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RE: Dilution Of Quality In "PHOTOGRAPHERS' Choice" II

Sun Dec 05, 2010 12:25 pm

Quoting zbot69 (Reply 26):
I think Chris has pointed out something all of us are guilty of, I know I am... and that's only investing time to vote PC for really outstanding submissions, which is far from frequent.

I just don't get enough time to browse all the submissions - so I miss images. That MI-17 / AN-225 image from Iran, I only knew about that because someone here mentioned it. I should vote more often on PC, and I promise that, but I don't frequently do it unless something really eye-catching comes along.

I look for images that are aesthetically appealing or technically very hard to get, or otherwise, a lot of effort went in to achieving the image. The photos where someone had great access to a favourable location, but otherwise - just took a fairly standard 1/500sec F/8.0 image in programmed auto mode, that won't generally get my vote - because any number of other people would have achieved the same or better, if they had access to the same location.

I don't think voting down photographers choice candidates is the right way to go, that will be abused and then it becomes pointless.

I'll keep trying to do difficult photos - because at the moment, I find them easier to do than the basic stuff.

Big version: Width: 1024 Height: 695 File size: 179kb


[Edited 2010-12-05 04:49:31]
 
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ptrjong
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RE: Dilution Of Quality In "PHOTOGRAPHERS' Choice" II

Sun Dec 05, 2010 12:43 pm

I only vote for pictures that strike me as truly exceptional. I don't do it on a daily basis and I'm not going to change that just because what a few kids are doing, I'm sorry.
The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
 
sovietjet
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RE: Dilution Of Quality In "PHOTOGRAPHERS' Choice" II

Mon Dec 06, 2010 8:55 am

Oh well...it's happening again. Regular side-on shot has been in the DB for 2 hours and less than 100 views but already almost at the top of PC.  
 
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ghajdufi
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RE: Dilution Of Quality In "PHOTOGRAPHERS' Choice" II

Mon Dec 06, 2010 10:21 am

Quoting cpd (Reply 21):

You can always turn off comments and ratings.


Actually I was being sarcastic. Star ratings are just toys for the kids, they are meaningless.
Comments however are the best feature of the site, just too bad you have to sign them to let the photog know who commented. I always get back to the guys who commented on my photos and in many cases we exchange a couple of emails. I enjoy getting to know the people behind the photos.

There are many many excellent points made here. I was just wondering how many votes are needed to receive a PCA? I don't know about you guys but Iam only allowed to vote oncein every 12 hours and I am not allowed to vote on the same photo twice. Are there really that many photogs from Iran? My original guess was a few hundred votes for a PCA but clearly this number is much lower. Somebody mentioning 12, in this case I am just not sure how valuable the PCA is if so few votes are enough to get it.

I've heard in some cases a.net can ban photogs for a week or even longer from uploading. Some people abused the system by uploading the same image without changing anything after it was rejected or in another case someone was uploading consistently high res photos or went too far when appealed. Don't you think that the unfair use of the PCA system falls into the same category?

On a sidenote, the front page photos are heavily controlled by a.net's facebook and twitter accounts. Beacuse of this I try to vote on photos that don't make it to the front but I still find them exceptional. If the PCA falls into the wrong hands we'll loose the control over every bit of the front page for good. Perhaps it wouldn't be too bad to have a second row of 5 photos representing what the photographers find front page worthy.

Happy Holidays everyone,
HGabor
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raedervision
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RE: Dilution Of Quality In "PHOTOGRAPHERS' Choice" II

Mon Dec 06, 2010 11:07 am

Until photographers control PC there will always be a lot of airplane pictures mixed in with the photographs. Maybe it's an airplane popularity contest. There are many variables that don't have anything to do with photography. Everyone knows what a good photograph is....it's the one they like.
 
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ptrjong
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RE: Dilution Of Quality In "PHOTOGRAPHERS' Choice" II

Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:10 pm

Quoting ghajdufi (Reply 30):
the unfair use of the PCA system

You can't define that.
The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
 
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eksath
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RE: Dilution Of Quality In "PHOTOGRAPHERS' Choice" II

Tue Dec 07, 2010 8:15 pm

Quoting cpd (Reply 27):

I'll keep trying to do difficult photos - because at the moment, I find them easier to do than the basic stuff.

That thumbnail attachment is a beauty. Hope it gets added to the database.
World Wide Aerospace Photography
 
RonS
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RE: Dilution Of Quality In "PHOTOGRAPHERS' Choice" II

Wed Dec 08, 2010 3:36 pm

Quoting ghajdufi (Reply 30):
Star ratings are just toys for the kids, they are meaningless.

Actually Star Ratings do mean something. I believe the higher your ranking, the better chance your photo gets on the front page in the Top Rated Photos section just underneath the Latest Photo Album. I've noticed that when it's on there, views for your pic keep climbing, it's an important piece of the front page. I've also noticed some of my photos make it there, but then are voted down, and drop off the Top Rated photos spot. So, I think they do mean something. Not sure if I care, but it seems that the star does do something at least, for better or worse  
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Samuel32
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RE: Dilution Of Quality In "PHOTOGRAPHERS' Choice" II

Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:42 am

I'm dign' todays photog choice... Always wanted to take a shot like that.

Sam,

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