westjet22
Posts: 98
Joined: Wed Aug 20, 2008 1:50 am

Camera Upgrade Advice

Sun May 22, 2011 4:56 am

Hi,

I currently have a Canon XSi and am looking to replace it. The main reasons I want to upgrade are; I recently got a 70-300L and it is very front heavy on the rebel, the 3.5fps burst mode is very slow, noise is an issue at ISO 400, and I am finding the AI servo mode to be inconsistent sometimes. The cameras I am looking to upgrade to are the 50D, 60D, or 7D. After reading the specs for each one it seems like the 7D is the most logical however I have some concerns regarding noise and price. Has anyone experienced low ISO banding or excessive noise around ISO 400 and up because I may need to go to that sometimes seeing as I have a slow lens. Also, it is going to be at least $800 more than the other two cameras and is the 19 point AF really going to make a difference vs the 9 on the other two.

Any feedback regarding these cameras is greatly appreciated!
 
scopedude
Posts: 56
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2010 8:05 am

RE: Camera Upgrade Advice

Sun May 22, 2011 10:16 am

I happen to have 60D and did try the 7D for two days. The 7D has the noise banding at ISO100 and 200 - but you really have to push the exposure/brightness of the shadow up to 2-3 stop in photoshop to see the banding (I see no reason to do that so this is no issue actually). I personally like the 60D because of the improved sensor, nice handling, VF, screen, and price. AF sensor is only 9 but surprisingly fast and works well in low light. Some would prefer 50D just because of its metal construction and AF adjustment feature. The 60D, however, doesn't feel light or cheap. It's solid and so far I don't find any lens with focus problem on my 60D. My 70-300L and 70-200/4 IS are simply excellent. Some of my photos here (not many) were taken with those lenses on 60D. You won't go wrong with either 7D or 60D, good luck!

Winston
5DSR, 6D, X-T1, 70-200 IS II, 70-300 L, 18-55, 55-200
 
JakTrax
Posts: 4636
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2005 3:30 am

RE: Camera Upgrade Advice

Sun May 22, 2011 4:34 pm

I dare say the 60D is a good camera but quite what Canon were thinking going back to a plastic body I'll never know! I too looked at both the 50D and 7D, and in the end the superiority of the 7D wasn't great enough to justify its price.

I went with the 50D and used the saving to buy a new lens (24-105L). Of course the 7D is the better camera but the 50D's noise performance is nicer. Trouble with the 50D is that you probably won't be able to get one now, and anyone with new bodies in stock is charging a fair whack for them. I know many people who weren't entirely convinced by the 60D but had to settle simply because they couldn't track down a reasonably-priced 50D.

Given that the choice is likely going to be between the 60D and 7D I think personally I'd go for the 7D. Having said that I have nothing against the 60D and those I've spoken to with them speak very highly of it - I'd certainly give one a go and if price is a slight concern it could be a good option. Either will be a significant upgrade from what you currently have. Remember, the lenses are more important, and you already have decent glass.

Karl
 
westjet22
Posts: 98
Joined: Wed Aug 20, 2008 1:50 am

RE: Camera Upgrade Advice

Sun May 22, 2011 5:45 pm

Thanks for the feedback guys.

Quoting scopedude (Reply 1):
I personally like the 60D because of the improved sensor, nice handling, VF, screen, and price. AF sensor is only 9 but surprisingly fast and works well in low light.

Thanks for confirming that. Those were my two main concerns and it seems that the 60D is able to control noise a bit better than the 7D.

Quoting JakTrax (Reply 2):
I dare say the 60D is a good camera but quite what Canon were thinking going back to a plastic body I'll never know! I too looked at both the 50D and 7D, and in the end the superiority of the 7D wasn't great enough to justify its price.

Yes, this is what annoyed me too. The plastic isn't great but I have plastic now so I won't be losing anything. And the price difference for an extra 2-3fps and 100% coverage doesn't seem worth the extra money when I could buy a 100 macro with the savings.

Quoting JakTrax (Reply 2):
I went with the 50D and used the saving to buy a new lens (24-105L). Of course the 7D is the better camera but the 50D's noise performance is nicer. Trouble with the 50D is that you probably won't be able to get one now, and anyone with new bodies in stock is charging a fair whack for them. I know many people who weren't entirely convinced by the 60D but had to settle simply because they couldn't track down a reasonably-priced 50D.

Yes, I am having a lot of trouble finding one used and the ones that are aren't that much cheaper than a 60D.



I'm thinking that 60D has the most bang for the buck, especially as I don't think the 7D is going to be getting any rebates soon.
 
JakTrax
Posts: 4636
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2005 3:30 am

RE: Camera Upgrade Advice

Sun May 22, 2011 5:57 pm

Quoting Westjet22 (Reply 3):
Yes, I am having a lot of trouble finding one used and the ones that are aren't that much cheaper than a 60D

I think this reflects the quality of the 50D and many people's reluctance to accept a plastic replacement (although Canon categorically stated that the 60D WAS NOT a 50D replacement). Irrespective of how the 60D performs, it'll have trouble convincing users with its plastic body.

It doesn't surprise me that used 50Ds are fetching nearly as much as new 60Ds - again, it's reflective of people's discomfort with the newer model. If the 50D was still readily available new and was the same price as a new 60D, the choice for me would be easy; however paying nearly as much for a used item isn't appealing to me, and under such circumstances I would opt for the 60D.

By the way, my conclusions are based on the fact that the 50D is metal and has a proven track record, rather than a lack of capability on the 60D's part. In your position, I see the 7D giving you no real benefit, and the cash saved by buying a 60D could be better spent elsewhere. Ultimately, the 60D is a pretty big upgrade on what you already own, and you will enjoy the differences - and that in itself is reason enough to make the purchase.

Karl
 
scopedude
Posts: 56
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2010 8:05 am

RE: Camera Upgrade Advice

Mon May 23, 2011 12:23 am

Although I could never say 'plastic is better than metal' in case of 50D vs 60D - plastic is not necessarily inferior. 60D still feels solid and handles very well. Sure it misses some buttons/controls found on 50D, so 50D/7D users need to adapt for a while. Regarding noise control, it's a mixed bag. Many reviews said that 7D/60D's 18MP sensor has less noise than 50D's 15MP sensor. I used 500D for a while, and if the sensor was indeed the same as 50D, I'd choose the 60D/7D anytime! Like Karl said, the lens is more important - and you got more than decent lens here. I absolutely love my 70-300L, it's as sharp as my 70-200/4 IS  
5DSR, 6D, X-T1, 70-200 IS II, 70-300 L, 18-55, 55-200
 
JakTrax
Posts: 4636
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2005 3:30 am

RE: Camera Upgrade Advice

Mon May 23, 2011 1:40 am

Quoting scopedude (Reply 5):
plastic is not necessarily inferior

Not exactly inferior, but the concept I think invites scepticism. It's just the way we as humans think. For most people, dropping something plastic is perceived as having more of a consequence than dropping something metal. The chances are neither drop is going to do the equipment any good but it's all about that perception. We feel better with what we believe is that extra bit of security.

Quoting scopedude (Reply 5):
Many reviews said that 7D/60D's 18MP sensor has less noise than 50D's 15MP sensor. I used 500D for a while, and if the sensor was indeed the same as 50D

That's the trouble with reviews. Did they have a good copy of the equipment? What sort of light was available? Were they using it correctly, and if so were they using it in a similar environment/role to the one in which I'll be using it? I always take reviews with a pinch of salt as the only real way to test is to have the item(s) in your own hands. I've seen reviews which slate the 7D's noise performance, and others which really praise it. Same with the 50D - however I can certainly testify that the copy I own has wonderful noise performance (better than the 30D I had previously).

Generally though, I have seen more reviews faulting the 7D's noise than praising it. Only a handful of (early) reviews seem to have slated the 50D's capability in this area. I've not kept up to speed with the 60D but I've heard about no issues regarding excessive noise.

Go have a play with the models you're considering at a shop. I still think - despite what I've said - that the 60D would be a wise move for you.

Karl
 
Silver1SWA
Crew
Posts: 4455
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:11 pm

RE: Camera Upgrade Advice

Mon May 23, 2011 2:28 am

Quoting JakTrax (Reply 6):
Generally though, I have seen more reviews faulting the 7D's noise than praising it.

Ok first thing is first. I bought a used copy of the 7D in March and I have been using the camera heavily alongside my 40D since. I had heard of the noise "issues" (mostly here) and I had many friends praising the 7D so I couldn't wait to finally find out for myself what the 7D is REALLY like.

In the low ISOs, there is some noticeable noise even on a bright sunny day. BUT...it's only visible on a computer screen when viewed at full resolution. In practice, is the noise a problem? NO! I'll say it again...NO! I have concluded that people need to seriously stop pixel peeping.

Here is the thing. At low ISOs of 100-400, ISO performance is pretty much the same. What has really impressed me with the 7D is the high ISO performance. This is Airliners.net, so I know everyone generally stays in the comfort zone of ISO 400 and below. Any camera out there today does perfectly fine in that range so it really makes no difference with any of the 3 choices being discussed. I use my cameras for a lot more than just aviation photography and I can now easily take usable shots at ISO 6400 in extremely dark environments, and I'm having a ton of fun doing so.

The biggest selling points for the 7D are the autofocus system and burst speed. It's suited very well for action. If you need speed, the 7D is a perfect choice for you. If you just want to shoot airplanes, all three cameras will do the job well.

Quoting JakTrax (Reply 4):
It doesn't surprise me that used 50Ds are fetching nearly as much as new 60Ds - again, it's reflective of people's discomfort with the newer model. If the 50D was still readily available new and was the same price as a new 60D, the choice for me would be easy; however paying nearly as much for a used item isn't appealing to me, and under such circumstances I would opt for the 60D.

Well, I think the price similarities come from the restructuring of Canon's lineup. The 60D in some ways took a step back and is often thought of as a souped up Rebel and the price reflects that.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
JakTrax
Posts: 4636
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2005 3:30 am

RE: Camera Upgrade Advice

Mon May 23, 2011 3:52 am

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 7):
I had heard of the noise "issues" (mostly here) and I had many friends praising the 7D so I couldn't wait to finally find out for myself what the 7D is REALLY like

A noise 'issue' is different to a noise 'problem'. I haven't really used a 7D properly but I'd say it's definitely more of an 'issue' (and perhaps a relatively minor one at that) than a 'problem'. Put it this way - I'd have no second thoughts about shooting important aircraft all day long with a 7D. That's what I personally think of the 'problem'.

On another note, I'm glad you think like me and don't take everyone else's word too literally. Best way to find out how good/bad a camera really is is to play with it! Had I listened to a lot of the 'advice' here regarding the 50D, I wouldn't own one right now - and I'd no doubt be worse off for it.

All three in my opinion will give you the speed, accuracy and consistency you'd expect from such an upgrade. Remember folks, it's not like the OP is going from one mid-range body to another - he's coming up from a Rebel/XXXD.

Westjet22, I think the only thing to do now is have a play with each and decide which best fits your hands....

Karl
 
westjet22
Posts: 98
Joined: Wed Aug 20, 2008 1:50 am

RE: Camera Upgrade Advice

Mon May 23, 2011 4:39 am

Yes, I think it will come down to which one feels and handles the nicest at the best price seeing as the 7D noise issue will not be a factor in practice as some review sites had stated. Thanks again everyone for the feedback, it is way more useful than any review site.
 
JakTrax
Posts: 4636
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2005 3:30 am

RE: Camera Upgrade Advice

Mon May 23, 2011 4:52 am

One more thing....

I have heard people say the 7D noise issue is a problem for A.net. Thing is, what's a problem for here isn't always a problem in the wider world of photography. I agree with Ryan, in that the 7D generally doesn't have a major issue with excess noise. Heck, noise/grain is what makes up a photograph, let's not forget!

The only reason why I'd advise against the 7D is simply price; and the fact that that price may include features not useful to you or which you may not benefit from a great deal. Spend the least amount of money on the tool that does the right job for you. It would be pointless spending an excessive amount on something that has a couple of buttons that'll only ever be for aesthetic purposes.

Go play with the 60D. Bet you'll likely come away with one.....

Karl
 
Silver1SWA
Crew
Posts: 4455
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:11 pm

RE: Camera Upgrade Advice

Mon May 23, 2011 5:53 am

Quoting JakTrax (Reply 8):
A noise 'issue' is different to a noise 'problem'. I haven't really used a 7D properly but I'd say it's definitely more of an 'issue' (and perhaps a relatively minor one at that) than a 'problem'. Put it this way - I'd have no second thoughts about shooting important aircraft all day long with a 7D. That's what I personally think of the 'problem'.

The noise complaints have only become an issue because too many people spend too much time scouring full res images on modern high res/high def computer monitors. Oh, Airliners.net's standards probably factor in as well...   

Quoting JakTrax (Reply 8):
On another note, I'm glad you think like me and don't take everyone else's word too literally. Best way to find out how good/bad a camera really is is to play with it! Had I listened to a lot of the 'advice' here regarding the 50D, I wouldn't own one right now - and I'd no doubt be worse off for it.

I simply let the results speak for themselves. I spend a lot of time on various photography sites/forums and I have been impressed over and over by images taken with the 7D. I haven't seen a problem by viewing the final product from these photographers, and their testimonials have never once mentioned any ISO problems.

Idealy, in terms of image quality I would love the 5Dmk2. But I like to shoot things that are fast. I like sports, I like aviation and I even like shooting 3-shot brackets hand held for HDR work. The 5D is WAY too slow for that kind of stuff. The 7D fits those needs perfectly. So I ignored the complaints, trusted my eyes that had seen plenty of 7D images and I took the words of my friends who swore by it and I ultimately got me a copy and I have not regretted it one bit.

Quoting JakTrax (Reply 10):
Spend the least amount of money on the tool that does the right job for you.

The best piece of advice I have seen here in a long time. Well said, Karl.

I have spent a lot of time visiting and photographing at Disney theme parks. I have gotten to know a man who spent 24 years as a senior marketing photographer for Disney. The man is old school for sure. But he has embraced the digital age. He recently purchased the Nikon D7000 after using the D300 for a few years. A few photo friends and I met with him a few months ago and we had a good chat. One person asked why he went for the D7000 instead of upgrading to the D700 or further to the D3 series. His response was exactly what Karl said, almost word for word.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
SNATH
Posts: 3049
Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2004 5:23 am

RE: Camera Upgrade Advice

Mon May 23, 2011 7:52 am

Quoting JakTrax (Reply 2):
but quite what Canon were thinking going back to a plastic body I'll never know! I

Karl, you just need to understand who the 60D is targeted for. Canon sells more cameras in the Rebel category than any other camera manufacturer. And the 60D was designed purely with the Rebel upgrade market in mind, given what's exactly what it is: a glorified Rebel.

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 7):
The biggest selling points for the 7D are the autofocus system and burst speed.

Ryan hit the nail right on the head here. If you've only used the archaic AF system on Canon's XXD and XXXD cameras you've probably learned to live with it. But if you move to a camera with a decent AF system it will simply change the way you shoot and you'll find it impossible to go back. I haven't used a 7D but I trust that its AF system is a huge step forward to the piece of junk that Canon has been selling us for years...

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 11):
and I have been impressed over and over by images taken with the 7D.

I don't doubt that Ryan.On the other hand, the 7D is the Canon body that I heard most complaints about from people who bought it.

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 11):
He recently purchased the Nikon D7000 after using the D300 for a few years.

Sure, but this tells you how damn good the D7000 is. Even though it doesn't have some of the higher end features of the D300, like build quality, frame rate, etc., the D7000 image quality is outstanding and a big step forward over the D300: 4 more SHARP megapixels (with similar or better per-pixel sharpness than the D300!), better dynamic range (better than the D3/D700 apparently!), much better high ISO performance, etc. And Nikon put a decent AF system on it. Not quite as good as the D300, but lights ahead of the Canon archaic junk. So, going from the D300 to the D7000 is either a small downgrade or a big upgrade depending which way you see it. Whereas going from the 7D to the 60D is just a downgrade.

Tony
Nikon: we don't want more pixels, we want better pixels.
 
Dehowie
Posts: 1065
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 8:41 am

RE: Camera Upgrade Advice

Mon May 23, 2011 8:33 am

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 7):
I have concluded that people need to seriously stop pixel peeping.

Well said Ryan and couldn't put it any better myself.

I bought my better half a 7D and she is getting killer stuff with it..anyone who has a problem using a 7D really doesnt have the right to use one.
It has excellent AF in fact after the MK4 the best AF on the SLR market in terms of cross sensors which are far more important than standard single horizontal sensors in any conditions but particularly poor light bad weather etc, great features and really produces some fantastic images..and its built well with weather proofing.
Its not a 1Dmk4 but hey its a third the price...if i was away and a Mk4 went down i'd buy one in a minute as a quick replacement.
In less than 60 seconds i could post links to stellar stuff done with the 7D that could not even be captured by equivalent gear because the AF would miss or the FPS would miss that split second you look for.
Having shot with it quite a bit be more than happy to shoot with it any day in any conditions..as for any noise at ISO100 it simply vanishes in post leaving you with lovely results.
Karl's words where good regarding what you need and getting an appropriate body to do the job but 7D image quality is not the reason to miss on a great camera..
2EOS1DX,EF14.2.8LII,17TS,85/1.2,16-35L,24-70LII,24L,70-200F2.8LII,100-400,300/400/500/800L
 
User avatar
NZ107
Posts: 4946
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2005 6:51 pm

RE: Camera Upgrade Advice

Mon May 23, 2011 11:04 am

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 7):
I can now easily take usable shots at ISO 6400 in extremely dark environments, and I'm having a ton of fun doing so.

I went to a friend's house over the weekend and was amazed by the quality of the 7D at high ISO. Even a video he was shooting in near black came out extremely well, much better than one would have anticipated. In hindsight, I probably should have followed him into buying a 7D.
It's all about the destination AND the journey.
 
tuckerel
Posts: 48
Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2009 1:40 pm

RE: Camera Upgrade Advice

Mon May 23, 2011 11:37 am

I went from a 450d (Xsi) to a 60d last November. I'm not regretting it at all, the quality in every respect is much better than the 450d.

I haven't tried above ISO400 for Anet shots, I'm still trying to get my processing right for ISO100 and 200. For non-aviation shots it is much, much better at higher ISO's than the 450d.
 
JakTrax
Posts: 4636
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2005 3:30 am

RE: Camera Upgrade Advice

Mon May 23, 2011 4:07 pm

Let's face it, if it weren't for the guidelines set out here for aviation images we'd probably all be shooting at ISO400 without a care in the world! ISO400 for most situations is more than fine. Wildlife photog's use it all the time - as one of their lower ISO settings!

Quoting tuckerel (Reply 15):
I went from a 450d (Xsi) to a 60d last November. I'm not regretting it at all, the quality in every respect is much better than the 450d

This will feel like quite a big upgrade. You've suddenly got features you never had before, so perhaps for the OP the 7D is a little too much? You won't miss what you never had, providing you've been satisfied with the results the lesser camera has offered.

The 7D is great but for me personally I can cover everything I want to do with what I already have. There is therefore no point in me getting a 7D and effectively wasting £700. I'd say the same to anyone - if the 60D can do what you want it to do, what point is there in having the better model? To show off with? To make you look good? To satisfy yourself that you have one of the best? When I bought my 50D the 7D was a serious contender, but eventually I chose to use the saving to buy better glass. The 50D to the 7D is a mere hop but the 450D to a 60D is quite a jump!

The only way I could whole-heartedly recommend a 7D for someone in the OP's position is if they truly required the extra features or if they had enough more than enough cash to buy the body and several top lenses.
 
ckw
Posts: 4586
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2010 12:26 am

RE: Camera Upgrade Advice

Mon May 23, 2011 11:54 pm

I think part of the reason for the mixed reviews of the 7D is its strange "semi-pro" placing in the Canon line-up. So you have people upgrading from lower spec cameras and also people adding a 7D to their pro kit as a backup or spare camera.

From my point of view, image quality is very good, but not quite as good as a 1D or 5D, but at least as good as or better than any XX range I've used.

As someone has said, there is detectable noise - but this is normal except for a very small group of cameras.

Against this, I would argue this is the most ergonomic and customisable camera Canon has yet produced - it even edges out the 1DIV due to the more managable size and weight. The camera is simply a joy to use and I would say the AF system alone is worth the extra over the 60D - its not just that its fast and accurate, but more the degree you can tune it to your use.

The price tag is obviously a consideration, but I think this is one case where you do get value for money.

Cheers,

Colin
Colin K. Work, Pixstel
 
spencer
Posts: 1518
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2004 8:30 pm

RE: Camera Upgrade Advice

Tue May 24, 2011 9:09 pm

Quoting ckw (Reply 17):
So you have people upgrading from lower spec cameras and also people adding a 7D to their pro kit as a backup or spare camera.

Guilty as charged! But in all seriousness the 7D is hard to put down, it really is a versatile camera in every respect. BUT, after using the 1D4 it does feel a bit like going from a Bentley to a Jaguar. (Before anyone asks, I actually know what I'm talking about there)  
Quoting ckw (Reply 17):
Against this, I would argue this is the most ergonomic and customisable camera Canon has yet produced - it even edges out the 1DIV due to the more managable size and weight.

Managable size and weight, definitely. I think, personally, I'd say the 1D4 is more customisable, but you'd have to use the 2 cameras in the same way I suppose to do a decent comparison. I use them in different ways and for different things. Having said that I believe the 1D4 is the best camera Canon has ever made.


Quoting JakTrax (Reply 16):
The only way I could whole-heartedly recommend a 7D for someone in the OP's position is if they truly required the extra features or if they had enough more than enough cash to buy the body and several top lenses.

I'd say go for the 7D. But it's a money issue of course, but what isn't. The 7D is an amazing camera and the extra features are extremely handy. In a way I was a little disappointed after getting my 1D4, as the 7D was almost like a mini 1D4! I actually still feel the same after owning both now for quite some time.
Spence.
EOS1D4, 7D, 30D, 100-400/4.5-5.6 L IS USM, 70-200/2.8 L IS2 USM, 17-40 f4 L USM, 24-105 f4 L IS USM, 85 f1.8 USM
 
JakTrax
Posts: 4636
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2005 3:30 am

RE: Camera Upgrade Advice

Tue May 24, 2011 9:59 pm

I hear all these 7D recommendations and I agree with what you're all saying but are we not perhaps trying to spend the OP's money a little prematurely? Right tool for the job, and if that happens to be the 60D then the OP has saved a small fortune. On the other hand, if he thinks the 7D will be better, so be it. Let's remember he's coming from a 450D, not a 50D, so I personally think the 7D may be overkill.

As I have said, if I had gone with the 7D instead of the 50D, I wouldn't have been able to afford the 24-105L. As nice as the 7D is, it won't do sunny side-ons any better than my 50D, so for me the upgrade is pointless. It seems as though we're all trying to force cameras down the OP's throat. It's been left in his hands now (pardon the pun), and he will no doubt go to a shop and see which suits him best.

If the budget is restrictive in any way, I'd sooner have a lower-spec camera and invest in more top-end glass.

Karl
 
Silver1SWA
Crew
Posts: 4455
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:11 pm

RE: Camera Upgrade Advice

Tue May 24, 2011 10:42 pm

Quoting JakTrax (Reply 19):
I hear all these 7D recommendations and I agree with what you're all saying but are we not perhaps trying to spend the OP's money a little prematurely? Right tool for the job, and if that happens to be the 60D then the OP has saved a small fortune. On the other hand, if he thinks the 7D will be better, so be it. Let's remember he's coming from a 450D, not a 50D, so I personally think the 7D may be overkill.

The 7D gets a lot of votes because, well...it deseves them.

What I have seen is people pointing out the best features on the 7D. Whether the OP needs to spend the extra money on the 7D or not, well that is up to the OP and they can make that decision based on information shared.

For sunny side on, heck the OP's 450D will do the job. But if they want an upgrade and like to expand beyond the sunny side-on airliners.net cookie cutter type shot, there are many considerations that need to be taken into account. Making a decision to settle for good enough can be an expensive mistake if they soon realize they should have gone that extra jump.

[Edited 2011-05-24 15:43:18]
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
JakTrax
Posts: 4636
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2005 3:30 am

RE: Camera Upgrade Advice

Tue May 24, 2011 11:37 pm

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 20):
For sunny side on, heck the OP's 450D will do the job

A decent enough job, although the fps burst is a bit crap. The upgrade would be less sluggish.

Perhaps the OP wants sunny side-ons? No-one's yet taken the time to ask what exactly he wishes to use the camera for.

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 20):
Making a decision to settle for good enough can be an expensive mistake if they soon realize they should have gone that extra jump

As can buying something you really don't need. I just feel that the OP is being steadily pushed into a 7D when in fact the 60D is a pretty good camera. I've got 21 years' experience and can do almost everything I want (except night shots using high ISOs) with my 50D. I don't feel the need to upgrade to the 7D and despite favouring side-ons I do lots of creative stuff too. Sure, the 7D would in all honesty make things easier but I'd have to pay £700 for the prililege.

It also depends on what glass he currently owns. A nice L upgrade I feel would be a wiser move, but then again we've no idea of budget. If cash isn't an issue then I'd agree, the 7D is the one to go for, as he will obviously have the means to upgrade the glass where necessary.

People were getting great shots with old 1Ds and 300Ds in 2004, which didn't even have the features of today's entry-level DSLRs; and the images we see 7 years later aren't light years ahead. Having a great camera is all well and good and will make things easier for an experienced user, but it's ultimately all about how you use the equipment.

Anyway, there is enough of a mixed bag of advice here to be getting on with. I agree with the points made about the 7D by the way, but it really is now up to the OP to go have a play around. Please let us know which ended up suiting you best.

Karl
 
JakTrax
Posts: 4636
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2005 3:30 am

RE: Camera Upgrade Advice

Tue May 24, 2011 11:39 pm

Just one more point.....

If you bought the 7D I guarantee you'd be happy with it. But perhaps if you bought a 60D you'd be equally happy (not knowing what the 7D's like) and quite a few dollars richer?

Just more food for thought.
 
User avatar
yerbol
Crew
Posts: 282
Joined: Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:18 am

RE: Camera Upgrade Advice

Tue May 24, 2011 11:48 pm

Quoting Westjet22 (Thread starter):
After reading the specs for each one it seems like the 7D is the most logical however I have some concerns regarding noise and price.

Get a good copy of 7D and enjoy it. I got a friend who is a happy owner of 7D. Two DIGIC4 processors are not fitted just for fun.It is a clever camera indeed. I think it is better not to upgrade very often so no need to go for 50D or 60D.Jump over them and go for 7D.One day you'll think about another upgrade.If I got money for 7D I simply buy it.
ps. By the way, I am a happy owner of 50D and I love my camera and my next upgrade will be 5D Mark2 only. My   wish!Mum, Dad, can you hear me ???!!!
Good luck and best photos to everyone!
With best regards from Almaty
 
ckw
Posts: 4586
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2010 12:26 am

RE: Camera Upgrade Advice

Wed May 25, 2011 12:07 am

Quoting spencer (Reply 18):
BUT, after using the 1D4 it does feel a bit like going from a Bentley to a Jaguar

Quite a good analogy - both quality machines, and a big difference is the weight   No question in terms of spec the 1Div is the better camera, but for me at least, the difference in handling gives the edge to the 7D (but note that I don't use grips on my cameras)

Quoting JakTrax (Reply 19):
but are we not perhaps trying to spend the OP's money a little prematurely?

No - only the OP can do that   But I'm not going to suggest a 60D when I personally think the 7D is better value for money. For me cameras are never a matter of 'getting the job done' - I have to enjoy using them, and that can be a very personal thing.

I have not got on with some cameras which have had rave reviews - the Canon A1 (yes, that is going back some!) I positively hated. I liked the 60D, eventually disliked the 10D, loved the 20D.

Ultimately when a poster asks for advice, I think all we can do is state what we would do, with hopefully some useful reasoning. We can't second guess the posters motives, preferences ... or wallet!

Cheers,

Colin
Colin K. Work, Pixstel
 
User avatar
NZ107
Posts: 4946
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2005 6:51 pm

RE: Camera Upgrade Advice

Wed May 25, 2011 9:18 am

Quoting JakTrax (Reply 21):
although the fps burst is a bit crap.

That also depends on the style of the photographer - There must be more people out there like me who don't just hold the shutter button down and that way it doesn't really matter how your camera performs on speed.
It's all about the destination AND the journey.
 
User avatar
cpd
Posts: 4550
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:46 am

RE: Camera Upgrade Advice

Wed May 25, 2011 1:31 pm

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 25):
There must be more people out there like me who don't just hold the shutter button down and that way it doesn't really matter how your camera performs on speed.

I do both, depending on what I'm photographing. The incentive with fast cameras is to limit your use of the maximum FPS, because it saves time in having to delete less unwanted photos.  

If I were spending the money, I'd probably go for the 7D myself, as long as the budget allowed.

Quoting yerbol (Reply 23):
my next upgrade will be 5D Mark2 only

I may be using one soon.  Wow! A little bit scary to learn a Canon again after so long.

Quoting JakTrax (Reply 16):
Let's face it, if it weren't for the guidelines set out here for aviation images we'd probably all be shooting at ISO400 without a care in the world!

Absolutely right.
 
ckw
Posts: 4586
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2010 12:26 am

RE: Camera Upgrade Advice

Wed May 25, 2011 3:27 pm

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 25):
it doesn't really matter how your camera performs on speed.

Yes - and no. Frame rate for me is a non issue, but responsiveness is, and this is sort of tied in with frame rate.

I don't like superfast frame rates 'cause they interfere with my own 'rythym' - at its high speed setting, my 1D3 is just too fast - I feel I've lost control of the shot.

But, with slow cameras I have had the situation where I've pressed the shutter quickly in succession - and nothing happens because the camera is not ready.

I haven't done any scientific tests, but my feeling is that a camera needs to be rated at around 4fps to ensure I don't encounter the latter situation, but of course the 'feel' of the shutter is just as - perhaps more - important. Sensitivity and travel need to feel just right in order to catch the decisive moment.

I learned how important this a while back on a 1D2 - the vertical release was a little more sensitive than the normal release. I found this really annoying, and eventually got Canon to 'de-sensitize' the vertical release.

Cheers,

Colin
Colin K. Work, Pixstel
 
JakTrax
Posts: 4636
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2005 3:30 am

RE: Camera Upgrade Advice

Wed May 25, 2011 8:37 pm

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 25):
That also depends on the style of the photographer - There must be more people out there like me who don't just hold the shutter button down and that way it doesn't really matter how your camera performs on speed

The switch from film/slide to digital is like being a kid at Christmas! I made full use of the 3fps burst on the 350D but by the time I got the 30D (which came in at 5fps) I realised that, for most situations, re-composing the shot and shooting again is much better. While this way I only got two or three shots, each was usually perfect (as opposed to 'machine-gunning' 10 shots, only to find that most are for the bin). People say that it doesn't hurt to shoot digital, but every wasted shot is an actuation, and replacement shutters aren't peanuts!

Quoting cpd (Reply 26):
I'd probably go for the 7D myself, as long as the budget allowed

If the budget comfortably allowed then yes, I'd do likewise. If it was a stretch and I also fancied some new lenses, I'd likely go for something cheaper. For the record, I have nothing against the 7D as I was seriously considering one when I bought the 50D. The 7D will actually probably be my next camera, and the 50D will be used as a back-up. I have briefly looked at the 5D for its high ISO performance, but it isn't really fast enough for me and my lenses won't quite have the reach on a FF body.

Quoting ckw (Reply 27):
I don't like superfast frame rates 'cause they interfere with my own 'rythym'

Not really an issue for me but the 50D's 6.2fps sometimes results in me reeling off two or three unintentional shots. I'd say a touch annoying more than anything else.

Karl
 
User avatar
yerbol
Crew
Posts: 282
Joined: Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:18 am

RE: Camera Upgrade Advice

Sun May 29, 2011 6:46 am

Quoting cpd (Reply 26):
I may be using one soon.   A little bit scary to learn a Canon again after so long.

I never had a chance to make a photo with 5DMark2. Interesting how is full frame does the job  
With best regards from Almaty
 
scopedude
Posts: 56
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2010 8:05 am

RE: Camera Upgrade Advice

Sun May 29, 2011 11:25 am

Full frame has the advantage in term of DR, noise, and - depends on the lens - sharpness. However, your lens has wider FOV now  
5DSR, 6D, X-T1, 70-200 IS II, 70-300 L, 18-55, 55-200
 
User avatar
NZ107
Posts: 4946
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2005 6:51 pm

RE: Camera Upgrade Advice

Sun May 29, 2011 11:46 am

Quoting scopedude (Reply 30):

But you lose the crop factor which may have some influence on your decision.

Quoting ckw (Reply 27):
But, with slow cameras I have had the situation where I've pressed the shutter quickly in succession - and nothing happens because the camera is not ready.

Fair enough. I've never really been in situations where I've actually needed to machine gun a subject. But I get by with my method perfectly fine!
It's all about the destination AND the journey.
 
User avatar
cpd
Posts: 4550
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:46 am

RE: Camera Upgrade Advice

Mon May 30, 2011 12:32 am

Quoting yerbol (Reply 29):
I never had a chance to make a photo with 5DMark2. Interesting how is full frame does the job

I did use it, the AF seems fairly basic, but it's adequate for studio/portrait style photos, and I hated the control layout, but the image quality seems good.
 
User avatar
yerbol
Crew
Posts: 282
Joined: Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:18 am

RE: Camera Upgrade Advice

Mon May 30, 2011 10:14 am

Quoting cpd (Reply 32):
I did use it, the AF seems fairly basic, but it's adequate for studio/portrait style photos, and I hated the control layout, but the image quality seems good.

What is/are the main difference/s between full frame and cropped sensor?I know that you get wider angle and more details.What else?

[Edited 2011-05-30 03:15:30]
With best regards from Almaty
 
dazbo5
Posts: 2717
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 8:05 am

RE: Camera Upgrade Advice

Mon May 30, 2011 10:36 am

Quoting yerbol (Reply 33):
I know that you get wider angle and more details.What else?

That's not strictly true. In essence, the sensor is larger (ie full frame / 35mm) rather than APS-C size (23mm from memory in the case of Canon crop bodies). This means the pixels are less dense and therefore have better light gathering qualities giving better ISO performace, particularly as ISO is increased. The other difference are just whatever camera features are given in that particular model. The focal length of the lenses doesn't differ, but a full frame will give true 24mm for example on a 24-105mm lens whereas it's equivelent to 38mm on a crop body.

Darren
Equipment: 2x Canon EOS 50D; Sigma 10-20 EX DC HSM, 50-500 EX APO DG, Canon 24-105 f/4 L, Speedlite 430EX
 
JakTrax
Posts: 4636
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2005 3:30 am

RE: Camera Upgrade Advice

Mon May 30, 2011 10:56 am

Quoting yerbol (Reply 33):
What else

A smaller bank balance!


Karl
 
SNATH
Posts: 3049
Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2004 5:23 am

RE: Camera Upgrade Advice

Mon May 30, 2011 9:14 pm

Quoting yerbol (Reply 33):
What is/are the main difference/s between full frame and cropped sensor?I know that you get wider angle and more details.What else?

Hi, I moved to FF a few months ago and I'm not looking back (even though I'll probably end up getting a crop body as a back-up body). This is what I like about FF:

* ISO performance: Insane, at least one or two stops better than crop. You like low light work, FF is for you.
* Use good quality lenses at their native focal length: Sure, you can get crop equivalent but they are simply not as good as the "big boys".
* Shallow depth-of-field: Probably most folks here won't care about this, but I love the shallower DOF you get with FF. Can't get enough of it! Grab a FF body and a good quality 50mm 1.4 and you'll never look back...

Tony
Nikon: we don't want more pixels, we want better pixels.
 
Silver1SWA
Crew
Posts: 4455
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:11 pm

RE: Camera Upgrade Advice

Mon May 30, 2011 9:32 pm

Quoting snath (Reply 36):
* Shallow depth-of-field: Probably most folks here won't care about this, but I love the shallower DOF you get with FF. Can't get enough of it! Grab a FF body and a good quality 50mm 1.4 and you'll never look back...


This is why I want a FF camera. Oh how I would love the DoF benefits...
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
ckw
Posts: 4586
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2010 12:26 am

RE: Camera Upgrade Advice

Wed Jun 01, 2011 12:15 am

Quoting cpd (Reply 32):

I did use it, the AF seems fairly basic, but it's adequate for studio/portrait style photos, and I hated the control layout, but the image quality seems good.


I really think Canon rushed the Mk II out to be the first with a viable DSLR video - and in that I guess they were pretty successful, but as a still camera, well it essentially identical to the Mk.1 with more pixels.

But rumours are strong that the 5Diii will be announced this summer and will inheret a lot of features (eg. AF) from the 7D. Perhaps wishful thinking, but the 5DII is looking pretty dated - essentially a 6 year old design, and even its video features are looking pretty limited by current standards.

Cheers,

Colin
Colin K. Work, Pixstel
 
User avatar
cpd
Posts: 4550
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:46 am

RE: Camera Upgrade Advice

Wed Jun 01, 2011 3:25 am

Quoting ckw (Reply 38):
I really think Canon rushed the Mk II out to be the first with a viable DSLR video - and in that I guess they were pretty successful, but as a still camera, well it essentially identical to the Mk.1 with more pixels.

But it's not so bad overall and you can certainly work with it. And over in Nikon land, we have nothing really like it. You have a D3X, and that's it, there isn't anything else in the 20+mp range at the moment.
 
ckw
Posts: 4586
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2010 12:26 am

RE: Camera Upgrade Advice

Wed Jun 01, 2011 2:49 pm

Quoting cpd (Reply 39):
But it's not so bad overall and you can certainly work with it.

That's for sure - I'm still happily working with a Mk.1 - the image quality and that full frame look overrides any complaints I have about performance. Nonetheless, the idea of 5D image quality coupled to 7D AF and perhaps a bit more performance has me salivating. I was thinking of going for a 1D IV, but I may just wait and see - I don't need the frame rate and my aging 5D 1 has certainly proved tough enough (touch wood!) despite frequent exposure to salt spray and bouncing around in the bottom of boats (and bang goes any chance of selling it on.   )

Unfortunately, as you say, the 5D II lacks competition, and seems to be still selling as fast as they can make them (doubtless due to film crews buying them by the container load), so maybe Canon won't feel any urgency to put out a replacement.

Cheers,

Colin
Colin K. Work, Pixstel
 
westjet22
Posts: 98
Joined: Wed Aug 20, 2008 1:50 am

RE: Camera Upgrade Advice

Fri Jun 03, 2011 9:52 pm

Thanks for all the info everyone. I had a chance to go play with both cameras today and think that I am sold on the 60D. I found the 7D a bit too complex and the flippy screen on the 60D will be really useful for videos and macros. I didn't really get time to go through all of the AF modes on the 7D but even the 9 cross points on the 60D are better than the 1 on my XSi. Also I can get the 60D for under $1000 which makes it a pretty good deal.
 
Silver1SWA
Crew
Posts: 4455
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:11 pm

RE: Camera Upgrade Advice

Fri Jun 03, 2011 10:11 pm

Quoting Westjet22 (Reply 41):
Thanks for all the info everyone. I had a chance to go play with both cameras today and think that I am sold on the 60D. I found the 7D a bit too complex and the flippy screen on the 60D will be really useful for videos and macros. I didn't really get time to go through all of the AF modes on the 7D but even the 9 cross points on the 60D are better than the 1 on my XSi. Also I can get the 60D for under $1000 which makes it a pretty good deal.

Congratulations on the decision. You did the right thing. You asked for advice, you listened and had a play with both cameras and chose the one that felt best to you and fit within your budget. Well done!

Enjoy!
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
User avatar
NZ107
Posts: 4946
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2005 6:51 pm

RE: Camera Upgrade Advice

Fri Jun 03, 2011 11:22 pm

Quoting Westjet22 (Reply 41):

Nice choice. All the best with future pictures from it!
It's all about the destination AND the journey.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests