DVAPilot
Topic Author
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Canon Eos 60D- Unsatisfactory Results

Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:51 pm

Hello all,
First of all, I would like to say that I have never seen this many talented photographers on a single website before. Some of your photos are simply stunning. I am striving for this level of quality and that "wow" factor. DTW is my home base, and I will be travelling to ORD in a few weeks to go have a spotting adventure (B748 ). Over a few months of work with the EOS 60D, my photos have improved considerably. They have a new form of 'motivation", some of which I find to be worthy for the A.net DB. I get home after going for a few solid hours at DTW, sometimes collecting more than a thousand photos. I took this photo yesterday (2-21-12), and I decided to post here about something. It seems that I simply can't get the quality that I see on here. So my question is, what is causing this. By the way, the photos are unedited, but I could use a bit of help with that too. Along with the 60D, I am using the Canon 18-200mm EF-S (Image Stabilizing turned on) Lens that the camera came with.
http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/...TWLongtermsunsetandLHMD-11F046.jpg
http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/...TWLongtermsunsetandLHMD-11F159.jpg
http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/...TWLongtermsunsetandLHMD-11F006.jpg

Also, with the final picture of the Skyteam 738, I would like to know if there is any way to change the depth of field, in order to bring the entire aircraft into focus. EDIT: It appears that wikipedia.org shows changing the aperture effects the DOF. Is this true and is it feasible for use with aviation photography?
The photo info is for the first one: f/5.6, 1/800s, ISO100, 145mm. The second one: f/5.6, 1/1600s, ISO100, 120mm. And for the third one: f/5.6, 1/800s, ISO100, 170mm.

Finally, I would like to know if anyone is willing to or able to edit my photographs for better quality. I am not very experienced when it comes to this, and no matter how many hours I spend trawling A.net for a bit of inspiration or that "aha!" moment, the photos never seem to reach the level that is shown here.

Thank you,
Aiden O'Nions-DVA9515
The email that I will respond to is theairplaneman@comcast.net rather than dva9515@gmail.com

[Edited 2012-02-21 15:56:47]
 
vikkyvik
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RE: Canon Eos 60D- Unsatisfactory Results

Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:40 am

Quoting DVAPilot (Thread starter):
I am using the Canon 18-200mm EF-S (Image Stabilizing turned on) Lens that the camera came with.

That might be part (or most) of the problem. I haven't used the 18-200, but an EF-S lens + large zoom range likely = softness, especially toward the long end.

Are those photos cropped at all? That will also make them appear softer.

F5.6 is a wider aperture than is typically used for aviation photography in good light. Lenses tend to be sharper toward F8 or F9. Plus your depth of field will be greater, though if the subject is sufficiently distant, it may not have any effect.

As for the 2nd photo, it's very simple - the sun is lighting the opposite side of the aircraft from the one you were shooting.

Yes, a narrower aperture (higher F-number) increases depth of field.

Other than that, there's just some experience necessary in order to nail exposure and such (your photos are all dark).
I'm watching Jeopardy. The category is worst Madonna songs. "This one from 1987 is terrible".
 
DVAPilot
Topic Author
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RE: Canon Eos 60D- Unsatisfactory Results

Wed Feb 22, 2012 1:14 am

Thanks for the quick reply!
I will take this into account on my next trip, perhaps this weekend. These photos are not cropped either, just taken from RAW to JPEG at the same size and maximum quality using RAWTherapee.
 
waketurbulence
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RE: Canon Eos 60D- Unsatisfactory Results

Wed Feb 22, 2012 3:27 am

Try this simple method and post some results when you can. On an average sunny day, put your camera in Av mode and set the aperture to f/8. Keep the ISO at 100 and let the camera meter the light and determine the shutter speed automatically. The shutter speed may change between 1/250 to 1/800 depending on how bright things are and how much the light changes. Shoot with the sun at your back. I am curious to see what kind of results you get. From there we can talk about editing, but it is important to do as much correctly in the camera as possible.

Looking through the 3 you posted above, I almost feel like they were shot through glass windows or something. The 60D should be very capable of great results, but your lens may be slightly limiting some quality. With some experience and trial/error I'm sure you can achieve better pictures.
-Matt
 
flood
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RE: Canon Eos 60D- Unsatisfactory Results

Wed Feb 22, 2012 4:41 am

Quoting DVAPilot (Thread starter):
Over a few months of work with the EOS 60D

[...]

Quoting DVAPilot (Thread starter):
I would like to know if there is any way to change the depth of field
Quoting DVAPilot (Thread starter):
It appears that wikipedia.org shows changing the aperture effects the DOF. Is this true

I don't mean to sound harsh, but I suggest you read up on some photography basics. It's a little baffling you've ventured into shooting manually without even a basic understanding of aperture. Have you even read the manual?
 
Stealthz
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RE: Canon Eos 60D- Unsatisfactory Results

Wed Feb 22, 2012 8:31 am

Quoting DVAPilot (Thread starter):
sometimes collecting more than a thousand photos.

That can be part of the problem, despite the myths, Photography benefits greatly from a "less is more" philosophy.

Take less photos and think about the settings and the results you are trying to achieve.

Taking less photos also makes it easier to learn from them.. a thousand or more from a session just overwhelms.
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
 
Airplanepics
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RE: Canon Eos 60D- Unsatisfactory Results

Wed Feb 22, 2012 9:00 am

I would be shooting high quality JPEG until I was confident that the pictures were coming back high quality.

By the looks of it you are shooting into the sun, which 99% of the time will give you poor results.

As they say, don't run until you can walk - take some photography classes or meet up with a local to ask for advice etc..
Simon - London-Aviation.com
 
celestar
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RE: Canon Eos 60D- Unsatisfactory Results

Wed Feb 22, 2012 3:21 pm

Yup, I think lens is part of the problem you are seeing here. Try to switch to 70-200/4L non IS, which is a true bargain for APSC long range shooting. I also think the exposure in your photo is left to be desired. Hope this helps! Photography is indeed an expensive hobby! BTW, like your composition though, nice angle.
 
stevemchey
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RE: Canon Eos 60D- Unsatisfactory Results

Wed Feb 22, 2012 5:21 pm

Quoting celestar (Reply 7):
Yup, I think lens is part of the problem you are seeing here. Try to switch to 70-200/4L non IS, which is a true bargain for APSC long range shooting.

While I agree that the kit lens is not the best lens around, I don't think getting a 70-200/f4L is the answer to the problem. If the user doesn't understand the basics of photography, no lens in the world will fix the problem. It's like upgrading a car's engine from a V8 to a V12 when you don't know how to drive stick.

DVAPilot, take some time and read some good technical photography books. Don't worry too much about the artistic side yet (like composition, rule of thirds, etc), since you already seem to have a good feel for that. Focus on how photography works and how the camera captures pictures. The main concepts you should understand are: Shutter Speed, Aperture, ISO, Exposure (exposure triangle), Depth of Field, Motion Blur, Grain/Noise and how all those are related to each other. There are also a few good blogs and Youtube videos out there to get you started.

Once you understand these concepts, go out and play with your camera. Take a look at how different settings affect the end result. The good thing about digital is that when you get home, you can look up all those settings on your computer and learn from them.

Good luck
 
trvyyz
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RE: Canon Eos 60D- Unsatisfactory Results

Wed Feb 22, 2012 5:49 pm

Quoting celestar (Reply 7):
Yup, I think lens is part of the problem you are seeing here. Try to switch to 70-200/4L non IS, which is a true bargain for APSC long range shooting.

That is correct, buy some lenses and a more expensive camera 7d o 5d, and the quality will improve?
Seriously, a rebel and efs lens is good enough unless you are getting paid or have too much money.
As people pointed out you need to understand more about how camera and lens work.
Also, shooting raw and using a good software will give you some flexibility to get most out of your shots.
 
shufflemoomin
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RE: Canon Eos 60D- Unsatisfactory Results

Wed Feb 22, 2012 9:59 pm

The images are way underexposed for one thing. One shot is 1/800 and one is 1/1600. There's simply no need for shooting at such fast shutter speeds on slow moving aircraft. With that lens, especially if you're around f4.5 or f5 at the medium range, try going to 1/400 or so and try that. I recommend learning about the exposure triangle and learning some of the basics physics at play there. I also can't stress enough how much I recommend you shoot in RAW. You can then examine your images and play with changing the exposure to learn what settings would have been better for the shot and learn why it didn't work. You'll learn invaluable knowledge that way.

Quoting celestar (Reply 7):
Try to switch to 70-200/4L non IS, which is a true bargain for APSC long range shooting.

Come on. Seriously? You're suggesting a beginner looking for advice on the basics such as exposure to buy L glass? The lens he has is MORE than fine for what he's doing right now. Suggesting lens or camera upgrades are fine for a pixel peeper looking to improve IQ but it's completely unrelated and misleading here. It's almost laughable to suggest that the lens he is using is any part of the problem with the underexposure he's suffering from. One look at the EXIF data would have shown that.
 
Silver1SWA
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RE: Canon Eos 60D- Unsatisfactory Results

Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:32 am

Quoting stealthz (Reply 5):
That can be part of the problem, despite the myths, Photography benefits greatly from a "less is more" philosophy.

Take less photos and think about the settings and the results you are trying to achieve.

You are absolutely right! I used to shoot exclusively in burst mode. Not because I was spraying and praying, but I always felt my chances of a keeper improved if I fired multiple shots of every scene, just for insurance. Well I recently went on a photo trip and shot exclusively in manual and single shot modes. I came home with more keepers than I know what to do with! It forced me to focus on my composition and take extra care to get the right exposure. What I've found is my problem in burst mode (7D by the way...8fps) is that I would take a series of shots and the sharpest one almost always turned out to be the one with poor composition. By slowing things down and being more selective, I nailed sharpness and composition on almost every frame.

But I'll repeat what everyone has said to the OP. Learn the basics! And then learn everything about your camera. Read that manual 5 times. Get lost in your menus and just play. I'm bored with my camera...I wish there was MORE I could do/learn, but I've just about covered it all.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
trvyyz
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RE: Canon Eos 60D- Unsatisfactory Results

Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:25 am

This video pretty much covers the basics of exposure triangle and what variable you would want to control to get the desired effect on your shots.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nk78nH3d8hU&feature=related
 
celestar
Posts: 505
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RE: Canon Eos 60D- Unsatisfactory Results

Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:59 am

Well, I guess I did not notice that the writer is a beginner in photography then.
 
747438
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RE: Canon Eos 60D- Unsatisfactory Results

Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:01 am

I'm very happy with my 60D, the first 60 or so photos here are with it.

http://www.airliners.net/search/phot...h=Phil%20Broad&distinct_entry=true
 
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yerbol
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RE: Canon Eos 60D- Unsatisfactory Results

Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:14 pm

Quoting 747438 (Reply 14):

Phil enjoying his 60D with 100-400mm L lens   Great photos Phil!

It is all about person behind the camera and light.
With best regards from Almaty
 
KFLLCFII
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RE: Canon Eos 60D- Unsatisfactory Results

Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:56 pm

The Basic Elements of Exposure (PDF)

The most valuable 41 pages you'll ever read in photography.
"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
 
DVAPilot
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RE: Canon Eos 60D- Unsatisfactory Results

Fri Feb 24, 2012 2:13 pm

Ok, I haven't been on in a little while so here is a reply to all of the comments here. Thanks for patience.
First of all, let me get something straight. I am a relative novice. I have some (but not loads) of experience with the Eos 60D. I understand how it works, and yes, I have read the manual. I also understand the fact that the lighting conditions were not great. Finally, I also understand aperture and how it relates to DOF, now, after reading through "The Basic Elements of Exposure". I was simply confused how to change it. Bare in mind-I'm not all that bright when it comes to cameras and am still practicing and learning. This thread is simply a request for a bit of advice or assistance.
Now to reply to all of you:

Quoting WakeTurbulence (Reply 3):
On an average sunny day, put your camera in Av mode and set the aperture to f/8.

I will try this, when it decides to stop snowing.

Quoting stealthz (Reply 5):
Take less photos and think about the settings and the results you are trying to achieve.

Ok, next time, less pics-better results.

Quoting Airplanepics (Reply 6):
I would be shooting high quality JPEG until I was confident that the pictures were coming back high quality.

Taken into account.

Quoting celestar (Reply 7):
BTW, like your composition though, nice angle.

Thanks, but I simply don't have enough cash for the lens, and by the looks of things, it doesn't look like that great of an idea.

Quoting stevemchey (Reply 8):
There are also a few good blogs and Youtube videos out there to get you started.

Cheers for the tip.

Quoting trvyyz (Reply 9):
Also, shooting raw and using a good software will give you some flexibility to get most out of your shots.

Perhaps, Photoshop Elements?. But I'll be trying JPEG again until I have that down.

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 11):
but I always felt my chances of a keeper improved if I fired multiple shots of every scene, just for insurance

Understand my thinking?

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 11):
By slowing things down and being more selective, I nailed sharpness and composition on almost every frame.

But I'll repeat what everyone has said to the OP. Learn the basics! And then learn everything about your camera. Read that manual 5 times. Get lost in your menus and just play.

Taken into account.

Quoting trvyyz (Reply 12):

This video pretty much covers the basics of exposure triangle and what variable you would want to control to get the desired effect on your shots.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nk78n...lated

Thanks mate!

Quoting 747438 (Reply 14):
I'm very happy with my 60D, the first 60 or so photos here are with it.

Very nice!

Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 16):
The most valuable 41 pages you'll ever read in photography.

Reading it now! Thanks!

Ok, well I hope that this has cleared things up. If I didn't quote you, I still took the message into account. Hopefully I'll be able to get back to DTW before next weekend and practice. Thanks for all the tips.
Aiden O'Nions-DVA9515
 
trvyyz
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RE: Canon Eos 60D- Unsatisfactory Results

Fri Feb 24, 2012 2:58 pm

Quoting DVAPilot (Reply 17):
Perhaps, Photoshop Elements?.

I would recommend Light Room 3 for raw. Last week they were going so cheap at B&H, I paid almost 3 times that price. Working with raw is very user friendly in LR3. I have salvaged many shots, eg. where my ext flash failed to fire with all my settings on manual, because of the latitude of raw.
I use LR3 for lighting, WB,noise corrections etc. and PSelements 8 if required for any more post processing.
 
DVAPilot
Topic Author
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RE: Canon Eos 60D- Unsatisfactory Results

Fri Feb 24, 2012 7:24 pm

Quoting trvyyz (Reply 18):
I would recommend Light Room 3 for raw

I will investigate further...
 
Stealthz
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RE: Canon Eos 60D- Unsatisfactory Results

Sat Feb 25, 2012 12:25 pm

Quoting trvyyz (Reply 18):
I would recommend Light Room 3 for raw.

Can anyone tell me if the RAW processing capabilities in LR are any better.. or indeed any different at all to the ACR(Adobe Camera RAW) that is built into PS Elements 9/10?(and I believe CS)

Lightroom is not the processing end game, whilst it has some post processing ability and has powerful project/portfolio capabilities I am not absolutely sure the serious amateur like myself(and I suspect most here) needs to spend money on both products.

I am yet to be convinced there is any real need for most "non professionals" to invest in LR & PSE (or CS)

Having used PSE9/ACR for sometime and about to move to PSE10, I am happy to be persuaded I am on the wrong track
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
 
trvyyz
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RE: Canon Eos 60D- Unsatisfactory Results

Sat Feb 25, 2012 1:07 pm

Quoting stealthz (Reply 20):
Can anyone tell me if the RAW processing capabilities in LR are any better.. or indeed any different at all to the ACR(Adobe Camera RAW) that is built into PS Elements 9/10?(and I believe CS)

In PSE you can process raw one by one, In LR you can do a batch, go back and forth files with adjustments which I doubt can be done with PSE. I also read that ACR use in PSE is a crippled version of the one used on LR/CS (CS and LR use the same engine).

LR was going for $69 last week, with that price, it definitely was worth buying.
But using ACR w/PSE is definitely an economical alternative.
 
kl692
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RE: Canon Eos 60D- Unsatisfactory Results

Sun Feb 26, 2012 4:50 am

Quoting trvyyz (Reply 21):
LR was going for $69 last week, with that price, it definitely was worth buying.
But using ACR w/PSE is definitely an economical alternative.

I have tons of softwares let me know if you need any
A310, A330,A346,B73H, B747,B772,B77W,CRJ
 
vikkyvik
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RE: Canon Eos 60D- Unsatisfactory Results

Sun Feb 26, 2012 6:39 am

Quoting stevemchey (Reply 8):
While I agree that the kit lens is not the best lens around, I don't think getting a 70-200/f4L is the answer to the problem. If the user doesn't understand the basics of photography, no lens in the world will fix the problem.

  

I really should have said that when I originally said the lens might be part of the problem. One has to understand the limits of one's lens. Every single one of my shots here was taken with a non-L lens; many of them with ~$200 EF-S lenses.

Quoting stevemchey (Reply 8):
It's like upgrading a car's engine from a V8 to a V12 when you don't know how to drive stick.

That's what automatics are for.  

(just joking....I drive stick)

Quoting DVAPilot (Reply 17):
Ok, next time, less pics-better results.

At least, less pics and easier time editing! I used to take far more photos on each trip to the airport. But I've gotten less and less eager to spend hours sitting in front of my computer picking through photos and then editing.

Hell, I took somewhere around 400 photos on November 6th (because LAX was on reverse flow and the light was beautiful), and I'm STILL in the process of editing them!
I'm watching Jeopardy. The category is worst Madonna songs. "This one from 1987 is terrible".
 
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NZ107
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RE: Canon Eos 60D- Unsatisfactory Results

Wed Mar 07, 2012 7:22 am

Quoting stealthz (Reply 20):
Can anyone tell me if the RAW processing capabilities in LR are any better.. or indeed any different at all to the ACR(Adobe Camera RAW) that is built into PS Elements 9/10?(and I believe CS)

LR's noise reduction ability is great. Better IMO than CS5. I wouldn't have been able to get this shot up if it wasn't for LR:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Nicholas Young

It's all about the destination AND the journey.
 
Silver1SWA
Crew
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RE: Canon Eos 60D- Unsatisfactory Results

Wed Mar 07, 2012 8:15 am

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 24):
LR's noise reduction ability is great. Better IMO than CS5.

I was under the impression that LR and ACR in CS5 run on the same engine. I find both to be nearly identical, the only difference being the user interface.

[Edited 2012-03-07 00:17:02]
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
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NZ107
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RE: Canon Eos 60D- Unsatisfactory Results

Wed Mar 07, 2012 8:40 am

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 25):

Quite possibly but I find it much easier to control the noise using LR over CS5. Ron's the one who showed it to me. I remember when I started using LR in Nov/Dec, I tried it out on some pictures which I had already edited ordinarily on CS5. And the result blew me away - the LR picture was so much better.

But I suppose that the change in workflow could ultimately be the difference. I guess I won't figure that one out as I'm sticking to the dual method of LR first and then touchups in CS5.
It's all about the destination AND the journey.

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