bricejohnson
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What Am I Doing Wrong With My Photos?

Thu Dec 20, 2012 1:00 am

Hey Everyone...

I am still trying to get some pics accepted here, and always get rejected files back with "grain" , "Quality" and "Soft". (To name so of the most common.)

Would upgrading to a higher quality lense help? I am shooting with a Nikon D3100, and a 55-200mm lense. I am thinking of the 70-300mm.

Thanks.
Calvin
 
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NZ107
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RE: What Am I Doing Wrong With My Photos?

Thu Dec 20, 2012 1:17 am

1. Why start two threads when they can obviously be combined into one.

2. Depends if you can notice the difference yourself or if your settings are far from optimal for aviation photography/you're consistently using the tele end of your lens. Also depends on the conditions you shoot in. Obviously nobody can help you if you provide no samples.
It's all about the destination AND the journey.
 
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Kaphias
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RE: What Am I Doing Wrong With My Photos?

Thu Dec 20, 2012 1:48 am

Upgrading your lens will generally help, yes. But if I can get pictures accepted with a point and shoot that's worth less than your current lens, I'd start by looking at some of the other possible issues before turning to equipment. Start by shooting still aircraft at a fairly close distance in optimal lighting. Once you get the hang of that, then expand both your skills and your equipment to suit your wishes.

Edit: That wasn't a dig at you, my apologies if it reads like that. Have you posted any pictures in the Photography Feedback forum to get some specific advice?

[Edited 2012-12-19 17:51:45]
Flown on: C150/172/206, DHC-2/3, AS350, J32, Q400, CR7/9, E135/40/45/75, DC9, A320, B732/4/7/8/9, 744, 752/3, 763, MD80
 
dazbo5
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RE: What Am I Doing Wrong With My Photos?

Thu Dec 20, 2012 9:03 am

Quoting BriceJohnson (Thread starter):
Would upgrading to a higher quality lense help?

Not necessarily. While good quality equipment helps, the basics of photography still apply. Even with the whistles and bells of top of the line equipment, if you don't know how to get the best from it or use the light to your advantage, it won't help. Maybe you can post a couple of examples so we can point you in the right direction? The old saying applies; quality in = quality out, ie you need good quality photos and good camera technique in order to get the desires results to upload here. Post processing should only to make minor adjustments and not be relied upon to remove or correct flaws. You want to get it right in-camera first. I would say your problem isn't with equipment, you need to develop your photography technique before blaming equipment. Pretty much any DSLR body and even basic lenses can produce good results these days when used correctly and within their limits.

Darren
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dlowwa
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RE: What Am I Doing Wrong With My Photos?

Thu Dec 20, 2012 10:02 am

Taking a look at your rejections, the problem in my opinion would be three-fold. First, half of your images are backlit or suffer from terrible lighting. Second, a quarter are taken from quite a distance, which will cause problems, either from atmospheric conditions, or having to crop a lot of the image. Third, the final quarter are not too bad, but need better editing to give them a chance. In short, a new lens might help with a few of them, but the vast majority of your rejections would not have been avoided with a better lens.

If you want to go into more details, better to provide some examples for everyone to see, and take the discussion to the Feedback forum.
 
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derekf
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RE: What Am I Doing Wrong With My Photos?

Thu Dec 20, 2012 10:05 am

It's OK. I've been taking photos for 35 years with decent equipment and I can't get any accepted either.
Whatever you do, don't buy equipment just to get accepted here. Upgrade your equipment to satisfy yourself.
If, as a by-product, they end up good enough for here then that's a bonus.

Acceptance here is mostly do with processing and manipulating the resulting image and seems sometimes to have little to do with actual photography.
Whatever.......
 
viv
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RE: What Am I Doing Wrong With My Photos?

Thu Dec 20, 2012 11:42 am

Quoting derekf (Reply 5):
Acceptance here is mostly do with processing and manipulating the resulting image and seems sometimes to have little to do with actual photography.

I disagree. A good image from the camera needs very little processing to get accepted here.
Nikon D700, Nikkor 80-400, Fuji X Pro 1, Fujinon 35 f/1.4, Fujinon 18 f/2
 
dazbo5
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RE: What Am I Doing Wrong With My Photos?

Thu Dec 20, 2012 1:55 pm

Quoting derekf (Reply 5):
Acceptance here is mostly do with processing and manipulating the resulting image and seems sometimes to have little to do with actual photography.

I would agree with Viv and disagree with your statement. I rarely spend more than a minute or two in post and it's just a case of checking levelling, final composition etc and a bit of sharpening. If things are right in-camera, there's very little to do in post so manipulation is not the issue. Basic photography skills are the key to getting photos accepted here, not editing skills or equipment (although they do help).

Darren
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vikkyvik
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RE: What Am I Doing Wrong With My Photos?

Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:48 pm

Quoting BriceJohnson (Thread starter):
Would upgrading to a higher quality lense help?

Chances are, upgrading your photographic skills would help more. I don't mean that as an insult; it's just the way it is. I submitted my first bunch of photos with a cheap DSLR and cheap lens. Certainly can be done.

Quoting derekf (Reply 5):
Acceptance here is mostly do with processing and manipulating the resulting image and seems sometimes to have little to do with actual photography.

I'll have to go with Darren and Viv on this one.

Sure, I've "rescued" images in post-processing, but it's a heck of a lot easier and more consistent if you have a good image to start with.
I'm watching Jeopardy. The category is worst Madonna songs. "This one from 1987 is terrible".
 
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derekf
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RE: What Am I Doing Wrong With My Photos?

Thu Dec 20, 2012 8:43 pm

Whatever. I've had clear, sharp, ISO 100, perfectly exposed images rejected for grain, contrast, any number of non-existent issues. There is nothing wrong with my photographic skills or quality of the equipment I use, therefore it is the processing where the rejections are arising.
Having countless images rejected for grain, contrast and sharpness has very little to do with getting it right in camera and everything to do with how they are processed.

Anyway, to the OP, buy a new lens to take photos you like - not to satisfy some acceptance criteria that exists here.
Whatever.......
 
dazbo5
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RE: What Am I Doing Wrong With My Photos?

Fri Dec 21, 2012 8:33 am

Quoting derekf (Reply 9):
There is nothing wrong with my photographic skills or quality of the equipment I use

I don't think anyone is suggesting that there is, but to say ...

Quoting derekf (Reply 5):
Acceptance here is mostly do with processing and manipulating the resulting image

simply isn't true. Of course a small amount of post-processing is required and you need a basic grasp of it, but all we're saying is as long as the original frame is of good quality, you need to do very little in order to bring it up to the standard required here and therefore there's very little 'manipulation' required. It's just minor tweeks to bring out the best from the photo and present it to a particular style. My upload ratio at the moment is well over 90% and I'm no photography or Photoshop expert so it shows it can be done.

Quoting derekf (Reply 9):
Anyway, to the OP, buy a new lens to take photos you like - not to satisfy some acceptance criteria that exists here.

I'd fully agree with that, but from Dana's post (as the OP hasn't provided any examples), there are technique and photographic basics that need to be mastered before relying on equipment.

Darren
Equipment: 2x Canon EOS 50D; Sigma 10-20 EX DC HSM, 50-500 EX APO DG, Canon 24-105 f/4 L, Speedlite 430EX
 
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derekf
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RE: What Am I Doing Wrong With My Photos?

Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:19 am

My acceptance ration is 4% so I get very little payback for the time spent - so I stopped uploading for a while. I've taken thousands of photos for over 30 years but according a.net's criteria, I am getting worse? No. I don't believe that for a second - in my case it has all to do with post-processing. I have tried all sorts of techniques, I have tried Elements and Paint Shop Pro (I'm not foolhardy enough with money to try Photoshop). I have tried very little post-processing, lots of post processing. I have on a hard drive any number of perfectly exposed sharp clear images, most of which were rejected for soft, grain, contrast etc. - things introduced by the processing. I have tried pre-screening threads, post screening threads, any tips and advice picked up has made little or no difference, indeed some seem to have made it worse.
So it is either post processing or some other screening criteria that I fail to meet . It would be nice to get a higher acceptance ratio but it's patently not going to happen so I don't get upset by it any more. It is airliners.net's loss, not mine.
Whatever.......
 
AlexC
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RE: What Am I Doing Wrong With My Photos?

Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:39 am

I notice that the head screener mentions backlit photos. I'd advise folks to avoid uploading anything that is even vaguely backlit, they just won't be accepted. Well anyway, that's been my experience.
 
dazbo5
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RE: What Am I Doing Wrong With My Photos?

Fri Dec 21, 2012 10:40 am

Quoting derekf (Reply 11):
So it is either post processing or some other screening criteria that I fail to meet

I'm more than happy to help out as it can just be simple things that can make the difference. I use PS Elements as the full version of PS isn't really needed for the post-pocessing required for uploading here. You don't need any advanced techniques, just a basic understanding of processing them. If you want to contact me through my profile, i'm more than happy to go through my workflow with you. I can't take any photos at the moment with the poor weather and my main lens being in the workshop for the 3rd time in 2 months due to a problem caused by an initial repair, so have time on my hands!

Quoting AlexC (Reply 12):
I'd advise folks to avoid uploading anything that is even vaguely backlit,

Which is exactly what we're trying to point out to the original poster. A new lens won't help until the basics of photography are mastered, ie getting the best from your equipment and understanding lighting.

Darren
Equipment: 2x Canon EOS 50D; Sigma 10-20 EX DC HSM, 50-500 EX APO DG, Canon 24-105 f/4 L, Speedlite 430EX
 
vikkyvik
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RE: What Am I Doing Wrong With My Photos?

Fri Dec 21, 2012 4:19 pm

Quoting derekf (Reply 11):
in my case it has all to do with post-processing.

That may very well be true, but I just wouldn't make a blanket statement that:

Quoting derekf (Reply 5):
Acceptance here is mostly do with processing and manipulating the resulting image and seems sometimes to have little to do with actual photography.

...since it can be done without too much processing and manipulation (and the less, the better, in my opinion). I'll fully admit that it took me quite awhile to figure all that out.

Quoting derekf (Reply 9):
Having countless images rejected for grain, contrast and sharpness has very little to do with getting it right in camera and everything to do with how they are processed.

Not sure what you mean. If the lighting is low contrast and you have to introduce contrast in post-processing, it'll increase grain. If the photo is soft and you have to sharpen a lot in post, it'll increase grain. So they're all related, and will certainly be affected by the quality of the original photo.
I'm watching Jeopardy. The category is worst Madonna songs. "This one from 1987 is terrible".
 
JakTrax
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RE: What Am I Doing Wrong With My Photos?

Fri Dec 21, 2012 7:03 pm

There are two sides to every story and I can empathise with both sides. Like it or not, this site and (the majority of) its images are not representative of photography; it's all about the editing. I've had some truly awful images (or certainly images I'd consider truly awful) accepted here, but some amazing ones turned away. This tells me that my editing isn't consistent, rather than my photography; as someone with over 20 years' experience photographing aircraft I can safely say my photography is fine.

Images here are manipulated, for sure, but that's what Photoshop's allowed us to do - and mainly for the better. We all take stinkers at times and wish we'd done better, but it's nice every once in a while to be able to rescue that all important shot. It was nigh impossible with film/slide!

Trouble is, looking at images here it will always bee very difficult to see how good the original photograph was (it's interesting that we talk about photos and images here, sometimes as though they're two separate things) - i.e. how well the photographer did with composition, exposure, colour, contrast, etc. Of course Photoshop can fix it all but I'm a firm believer in getting it as close to perfect as you can in the camera. We may have poor photographers here who can work wonders with Photoshop and get tons of photos accepted - just as there are clearly some awesome photographers who just struggle to adapt to Photoshop and this site's requirements. We're never really going to be able to distinguish between the two.

Finally, going back to the whole 'photos and images' thing, I consider the original file to be the photograph and the edited version to be the image.

Cheers,

Karl
 
CosmicCruiser
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RE: What Am I Doing Wrong With My Photos?

Fri Dec 21, 2012 7:15 pm

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 14):
Not sure what you mean. If the lighting is low contrast and you have to introduce contrast in post-processing, it'll increase grain. If the photo is soft and you have to sharpen a lot in post, it'll increase grain. So they're all related, and will certainly be affected by the quality of the original photo.

If I may I'll add just a comment or two. If the lighting is that low there's not much you're going to do that will look really good. Increasing contrast should be done in small amounts or it will be too much and obvious. Sharpening is always done due to the nature of a digital sensor but not to "sharpen" a soft or blurred picture. If the picture is even slightly underexposed using PP to brighten it will add noise. Also as I'm sure you know high ISO will add noise too. Noise can be eliminated with noise reduction in PP but again too much will soften the picture. In the end you must consider all the ingredients to get the best picture, lens, light, motion and composition. An error in any of these will result in a less than super pic.
My first attempt to submit photos here was rejected due to my lack, at the time, of all those considerations and mine had noise and dust on the sensor. I've learned a lot over the last few years and my last photo was rejected because "there were too many like this" which kinda surprised me considering all the interior shots I see and would never shoot. I may try again in the future but it's not a huge priority. Like another post said do it for yourself. I participate in another photography website and can tell you no photo is ever completely free of criticism if enough people comment on it so if you like it cool, if you learn something that will help you improve then that's great. Have fun!
 
vikkyvik
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RE: What Am I Doing Wrong With My Photos?

Sat Dec 22, 2012 7:22 am

Quoting JakTrax (Reply 15):
We may have poor photographers here who can work wonders with Photoshop and get tons of photos accepted - just as there are clearly some awesome photographers who just struggle to adapt to Photoshop and this site's requirements. We're never really going to be able to distinguish between the two.

Absolutely. But that doesn't negate the fact that by nailing it in-camera, you can save yourself a lot of editing, and need for more advanced editing skills.
I'm watching Jeopardy. The category is worst Madonna songs. "This one from 1987 is terrible".
 
viv
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RE: What Am I Doing Wrong With My Photos?

Sat Dec 22, 2012 10:04 am

I do very little editing - about 2 minutes per photo - because I don't know how and have no interest in learning.

My acceptance ratio here is 68 per cent.

Get it right when you shoot, not afterwards.
Nikon D700, Nikkor 80-400, Fuji X Pro 1, Fujinon 35 f/1.4, Fujinon 18 f/2
 
JakTrax
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RE: What Am I Doing Wrong With My Photos?

Sat Dec 22, 2012 10:15 am

Viv,

I can add nothing further that would be as effective! I think your succinct comment concludes the thread!!!

Karl
 
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derekf
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RE: What Am I Doing Wrong With My Photos?

Sat Dec 22, 2012 10:40 am

I don't disagree that getting it right in the camera is a good start - but that is by and large what I do...and end up with a 4% acceptance ratio. I can only assume therefor that there is something else that is stopping me from getting pictures accepted. I also do very little to my photos, most don't appear to need very much and yet a decent acceptance ratio is elusive. Therefore the reason my photos are rejected is in the editing.
There is no doubt that the acceptance bar is raised higher each year, sadly my editing skills have not kept pace.
I try my luck uploading every few months, have a good laugh at the rejection reasons then disappear again sighing "Oh well...."
I've plenty of other hobbies that are far more rewarding than trying to get photos accepted here.
Whatever.......
 
dazbo5
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RE: What Am I Doing Wrong With My Photos?

Sat Dec 22, 2012 12:34 pm

Quoting derekf (Reply 20):
I also do very little to my photos, most don't appear to need very much and yet a decent acceptance ratio is elusive. Therefore the reason my photos are rejected is in the editing.
There is no doubt that the acceptance bar is raised higher each year, sadly my editing skills have not kept pace.

My offer still stands in reply 13 Derek. I'm no master at editing, but I know what is required for here so can hopefully steer you in the right direction if you wish.

Quoting JakTrax (Reply 19):
I can add nothing further that would be as effective! I think your succinct comment concludes the thread!!!

  

Merry Christmas everyone. I hope Santa brings you something nice   

Darren
Equipment: 2x Canon EOS 50D; Sigma 10-20 EX DC HSM, 50-500 EX APO DG, Canon 24-105 f/4 L, Speedlite 430EX
 
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derekf
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RE: What Am I Doing Wrong With My Photos?

Sat Dec 22, 2012 12:48 pm

Thanks for the kind offer Darren. I may take you up on it sometime.

It appears others have decided that the discussion has been concluded so I'll leave it there.
Whatever.......
 
JakTrax
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RE: What Am I Doing Wrong With My Photos?

Sat Dec 22, 2012 6:35 pm

Derek,

There's nothing wrong with your photos I dare say. Despite claims to the contrary the 'standards' are continually raised, to the point where no camera can actually naturally produce the kind of images sought. Your example is indicative of how the site is based around editing rather than photography. But hey-ho.....

Quoting derekf (Reply 20):
I've plenty of other hobbies that are far more rewarding than trying to get photos accepted here

I love this hobby and fanatically spend all my spare time doing it. Uploading here is just a sideline but nothing beats a hard day's work (and a pub visit with the lads afterwards!), followed by coming home to view your efforts on the big screen. THAT's the rewarding part - pleasing yourself! I much prefer looking at my high-res originals than my overly sharp 1200 pixel edits.

Happy Xmas!

Karl
 
Silver1SWA
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RE: What Am I Doing Wrong With My Photos?

Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:15 pm

Quoting derekf (Reply 20):

Everyone who is saying that a good capture will require very little editing to get accepted here is correct.

The key to acceptance is not the amount of editing, it's to recognize what an acceptable photo looks like and edit accordingly. There is a very small margin for error so you have to aim for that sweet spot in all areas of the editing process. A little anticipation is needed too. I'm sharpening for the screeners' screens, not mine. In other words, I over sharpen according to my screen because I have figured out that if I aim for "perfect" on my screen, my shots will be rejected for soft. You need to make adjustments as you get rejections. And since the standards are always going up, you have to be on your toes and adjust along the way to keep up.

It shouldn't take a lot of editing to get an acceptance. It takes proper editing, as defined by the site.

Quoting AlexC (Reply 12):
I notice that the head screener mentions backlit photos. I'd advise folks to avoid uploading anything that is even vaguely backlit, they just won't be accepted. Well anyway, that's been my experience.


There is some truth to this and frankly, it's crap. If done correctly, backlighting can enhance the mood of a photo. It kills me when I see photos shot down for being backlit or in less than "favorable" light.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
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derekf
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RE: What Am I Doing Wrong With My Photos?

Mon Dec 24, 2012 9:25 am

That's exactly what I've been saying - getting photos accepted is all about editing. You say a good picture needs very little editing and then go on to describe how crucial editing is in getting pictures accepted and if your editing is slightly off, the photo gets rejected. So it is all in the editing - like I said. It doesn't matter how good your original photo is - you get the editing wrong, it gets rejected.

I take much more satisfaction from winning some recent photo competitions - incidentally with photos that were rejected from this site. That tells me a great deal about the standards for airliners.net and how false they really are in terms of real photography.
Whatever.......
 
Silver1SWA
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RE: What Am I Doing Wrong With My Photos?

Mon Dec 24, 2012 10:42 am

Quoting derekf (Reply 25):
It doesn't matter how good your original photo is - you get the editing wrong, it gets rejected.

Agreed.

Quoting derekf (Reply 25):
That tells me a great deal about the standards for airliners.net and how false they really are in terms of real photography.

I have learned with Airliners.net, it is what it is. It's interesting... I learned how to use my camera and how to edit using photoshop thanks to this website and for the first couple of years, I only shot aviation photos. The acceptance criteria was all I knew. This actually hurt me a bit as I began to expand beyond shooting for this site and beyond aviation photography. It was incredibly difficult to adjust to the more generally accepted practices in photography. Kinda ironic considering it's usually the other way around as people with tons of outside experience have a hard time adjusting to Airliners.net standards.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
dazbo5
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RE: What Am I Doing Wrong With My Photos?

Mon Dec 24, 2012 1:10 pm

Quoting derekf (Reply 25):
getting photos accepted is all about editing

I still maintain the emphasis is on the photography and not the editing, but of course editing (post-processing) comes in to it in the digital era. I feel it's a misconception that editing is the most important part. If you have a good quality photo to work with, the editing is just polishing it to present it to the a.net criteria, nothing more and takes no more than a minute or two. A less than ideal original or one taken under challenging conditions is going to take more editing know-how and I would agree editing becomes more important for those. But then a large part of photography, for me at least, is in the planning of a shot, ie being in the right place, at the right time with the right equipment and best available lighting. I fail to see how getting photos accepted here is all about the editing, it starts way before that in my mind. It'd say it's 80% photography and 20% editing at most under normal circumstances.

Darren
Equipment: 2x Canon EOS 50D; Sigma 10-20 EX DC HSM, 50-500 EX APO DG, Canon 24-105 f/4 L, Speedlite 430EX
 
ckw
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RE: What Am I Doing Wrong With My Photos?

Mon Dec 24, 2012 1:37 pm

Quoting derekf (Reply 25):
That tells me a great deal about the standards for airliners.net and how false they really are in terms of real photography.

I think 'false' is a bit strong, but I know where you're coming from. I prefer to think of the criteria as a house style - either you work with it or don't bother uploading. Many magazines have similar constraints. If the house style doesn't match your shooting/editing style it's going to an uphill struggle - and ultimately unsatisfying.

The mistake people seem to make is equating A.net to a photography site. It's not - yes there are great photos here, but these are within a predefined envelope - and this envelope is not based on photography per se, but on the illustration of a particular subject.

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 26):
I have learned with Airliners.net, it is what it is. It's interesting... I learned how to use my camera and how to edit using photoshop thanks to this website and for the first couple of years, I only shot aviation photos. The acceptance criteria was all I knew. This actually hurt me a bit as I began to expand beyond shooting for this site and beyond aviation photography.

I agree with this 100% - A.net is a great learning tool, but its not the end of the road by any means - or even the only road.

Cheers,

Colin
Colin K. Work, Pixstel
 
JakTrax
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RE: What Am I Doing Wrong With My Photos?

Mon Dec 24, 2012 1:58 pm

Quoting dazbo5 (Reply 27):
It'd say it's 80% photography and 20% editing at most under normal circumstances

I'm not sure Darren, I have seen some tremendously bad photos make it here once edited (a few have been my own!). Composition to me is a very important part of what makes a good photo, but the level and crop tools in Photoshop can make a poorly composed image suddently very aesthetic.

I look at it like this - I take a photo, in which the subject fills the frame and is perfectly centred. Colour and contrast are pretty good, and it's level. It's in focus and sharp. I resize it and submit it here. What's going to happen to it? It will be rejected, likely for colour/contrast and certainly for soft. Does that make it a bad photo? Of course not.

On the flip side, someone can take a truly awful photo - i.e. unlevel, muddy colours, poor contrast, bad composition - and edit it in the correct way so that it sails through the screening process. This image (image being a word I apply to an edited photo) will be better than that in the first example - but will the actual photo?

These days you need not take a good photo to get a good image - it just needs to be in focus and without camera shake basically. The rest Photoshop can/will sort.

Merry Christmas all!

Karl
 
Psych
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RE: What Am I Doing Wrong With My Photos?

Mon Dec 24, 2012 2:13 pm

Some wise words in this interesting thread.

I particularly agree with the notion that A.net has a 'house style'. Part of achieving that accepted style is in the photographing of the image - e.g. wait that fraction of a second before you press the shutter so the wheels pass by that runway sign that would otherwise obstruct them; another key part is all in the editing - a perfect example being that fine line surrounding sharpness.

Good quality photos achieved in camera do - I agree - often not take long in post-processing. But I do feel that requires a tried and tested workflow, that does the business for here. I like to think I take decent photos, but not one would get on here without some editing. That said, I have a photo in the queue, which I am keeping everything crossed for, which is on its third go and has taken a load of work (and learning) to get looking right. True, it was taken in challenging conditions, but without significant editing - and knowledge of the editing process (or knowing a man who does!) - it wouldn't stand any chance. More time has gone into that one photo than the whole time I spent at the airport on the occasion it was taken.

My view, for what it is worth, is that a good track record at A.net requires a successful editing workflow, and an awareness of when stages in that process need to be altered to address differences in the original conditions.

May I wish all contributors a very Happy Christmas, if that's your thing, and a prosperous New Year.

Paul
 
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walter2222
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RE: What Am I Doing Wrong With My Photos?

Mon Dec 24, 2012 3:10 pm

Quoting AlexC (Reply 12):
I'd advise folks to avoid uploading anything that is even vaguely back-lit, they just won't be accepted. Well anyway, that's been my experience.



There are, however, exceptions, as shown here:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Walter Van Bel



When I was shooting this, I noticed the different shades of grey (not 50, but still...) and I liked it. Therefor, I also uploaded it and it was accepted. Just to state that not everything even vaguely back-lit will be rejected, it just depends on the photo or image  

I must say that I have enjoyed reading through the thread!

Quoting Psych (Reply 30):
I particularly agree with the notion that A.net has a 'house style'. Part of achieving that accepted style is in the photographing of the image - e.g. wait that fraction of a second before you press the shutter so the wheels pass by that runway sign that would otherwise obstruct them; another key part is all in the editing - a perfect example being that fine line surrounding sharpness.



   I completely agree here!

Quoting viv (Reply 6):
A good image from the camera needs very little processing to get accepted here.




   I also agree with Viv here, but I must add that also my acceptance ratio has plummeted, mostly because I have been trying to get some really bad weather shots (Belgian summer, you know) accepted, and my editing is not that good to achieve that  

Thereafter I had other problems (PC screen going defect and PC hard drive crashed...) and now I am still busy trying to install my SW again (where did I leave all these CD-ROM's???).

Anyhow, I wish everybody on here a very Merry Christmas and a Phabulous 2013 (the phinal year of the Phantoms in Germany...).

Best regards,

Walter
Canon 347d mkII ;-) - EFS10-22mm f/3.5-4.5 USM - EFS18-55mm - EF28-105mm f3.5/4.5 - EF100-400mm f4.5-5.6l IS USM - ...
 
dazbo5
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Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 8:05 am

RE: What Am I Doing Wrong With My Photos?

Mon Dec 24, 2012 4:31 pm

Quoting JakTrax (Reply 29):
I have seen some tremendously bad photos make it here once edited (a few have been my own!).

I agree Karl, there's no question that a knowledge of Photoshop or similar software can be useful in pulling back photos that would otherwise have been lost. But in terms of the original question of whether BriceJohnson should get a new lens or not, I think technique and getting things right in-camera are much more important than editing his way out of it. For me, that's more important than sitting behind a desk and playing with parameters, I'd much rather be out in the fresh air (tainted by jet A1 exhaust!) than spending 30 minutes trying to mask things. Of course editing plays it's part in all of this, we don't live in an ideal world where lighting is perfect all the time (certainly not in this part of the world!) but I don't see it as the most important part of photography and certainly not for having your work accepted here. The most important part for me is getting it right in camera then it minimises anything that needs to be done in post. That's far more satisfying to me and makes it so much easier getting photos through screening.

Quoting JakTrax (Reply 29):
I resize it and submit it here. What's going to happen to it? It will be rejected, likely for colour/contrast and certainly for soft. Does that make it a bad photo? Of course not.

That's where post-processing comes in for submitting here. You're never going to get a photo accepted here without minor editing. It's someone elses site and they make the rules, whether we agree with them or not, we have to abide by them if we want to display our work here. With a well executed shot, and mine are by no means perfect, far from it, coupled with a small amount of editing, there's no reason why anyone can't get a shot accepted here ...

Quoting Psych (Reply 30):
that requires a tried and tested workflow, that does the business for here

.... I fully agree Paul. Once you have things in-camera sorted, and you have a digital workflow for here sorted, there's no reason why anyone can't get photos accepted here. There are times when I feel the screening process lets us down (that's a whole other subject and been covered separately and by our emails), but once you get your head around what is required for the site, it's not all that difficult. It is to start with, it's a steep learning curve as we all know but everything is difficult to start with and once you get your head around the criteria and with experience, it gets easier.

I still maintain the photography aspect in terms of technique, planning and execution is most important, with editing being secondary.

Quoting JakTrax (Reply 29):
These days you need not take a good photo to get a good image - it just needs to be in focus and without camera shake basically. The rest Photoshop can/will sort

To a certain extent, I agree but that's up to the individual to assess what they are trying to achieve and what they want to get from their photography. Personally, I would prefer to get things right in-camera and to learn the aspects of photography than learn advanced editing skills. It's a bit like a training course I'm going on next month for work (4x4 LANTRA refresher) where the idea is to learn and get the techniques correct to minimise risk and not get stuck. In this analogy, of course there are times when you will get stuck then there are techniques for recovery such as winches, bridging ladders and manual labour (shovels!), but you only want to use them as last resort and not rely on them.

Merry Christmas, Santa is on his way!

Darren
Equipment: 2x Canon EOS 50D; Sigma 10-20 EX DC HSM, 50-500 EX APO DG, Canon 24-105 f/4 L, Speedlite 430EX
 
JakTrax
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RE: What Am I Doing Wrong With My Photos?

Mon Dec 24, 2012 4:52 pm

Hi Darren,

I'm actually agreeing with much of what you say, as I too prefer to get everything (or nearly everything as you sometimes can't help the light!) right in the camera. With editing as terrible as mine I don't have a choice!

For me personally, it's 100% about the original photo and 0% about the editing. A good photo will always be just that, irrespective of whether it's edited for here, there, elsewhere or everywhere - or indeed edited at all. I'm simply saying that an image that looks good here might not be a particularly good photo.

Most of my experience comes from old 35mm formats - well before Photoshop came along - so I guess my idea of a good photo may be different to someone else's. I appreciate that some people are more concerned with the 'end product' - that is, the final edit - rather than the original file. In fact I know people who bin the original files once they've been edited! As for me, I keep all originals and bin the edits once they've been accepted.

I've had high acceptance ratios here (not quite sure how they happened!) but believe me, my editing is pretty appalling. Luckily I do work very hard at getting a decent photo straight from the camera, which is I imagine what saves my bacon much of the time! I now spend much less time editing images (not that I ever spent that long per photo) and tend not to get too concerned when something gets rejected.

Cheers,

Karl
 
vikkyvik
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RE: What Am I Doing Wrong With My Photos?

Mon Dec 24, 2012 8:24 pm

Quoting derekf (Reply 25):
That tells me a great deal about the standards for airliners.net and how false they really are in terms of real photography.

Define "false standards" and "real photography" first, and then we can discuss.

But going back to what you originally said:

Quoting derekf (Reply 5):
Acceptance here is mostly do with processing and manipulating the resulting image and seems sometimes to have little to do with actual photography.

Many people have posted that with a good starting photo, there's not much processing and manipulating required at all. I don't consider most of the editing I do to be "manipulation" anyway (which, for me, has the connotation of making the photo appear to show something that's not actually there, subject-wise, light-wise, color-wise, whatever, and goes beyond mere enhancements or tweaks). Slight boost of contrast, slight tweak of color, some sharpening; that's all easy and very quick. Yes, you have to do it to get accepted here. But it doesn't have to be much of a process at all.

I suppose I should phrase it like this: most of my mental focus goes into getting the shot right when I take it, rather than into processing it. So all I have to do is take an already-good shot and tweak it for the aforementioned "house style" of A.net. My acceptance rate has generally been between 60 and 75% for a year or more now.

Recently, I haven't been feeling like editing photos for A.net, so I've taken a break from uploading. It's quite simple, really. But my workflow was quite consistent, so I can always pick up where I left off and start uploading here again.

Having seen many of your photos in the feedback thread, I think it's a simple issue of looking at the photos through A.net's eyes, rather than your own eyes. Obviously, that's only relevant if you want to upload here. Life goes on...
I'm watching Jeopardy. The category is worst Madonna songs. "This one from 1987 is terrible".
 
darreno1
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RE: What Am I Doing Wrong With My Photos?

Mon Dec 24, 2012 10:29 pm

I look at sites like these as learning tools and encourage all newbies to do the same. I don't have to upload here and have my own albums which I share with others, however I continue to upload here as I see it as an opportunity to learn different techniques and for my work to be scrutinized. And like everyone pretty new to photography and editing, I got many pictures rejected at first and improved with time. I has also taught me quite a bit about editing with Photoshop which was my intent. Now, with that said, I don't always agree with their opinions but they're not forcing me or anyone to upload so at the end of the day, I have play by their rules if I want my pics accepted. If you keep that in mind , see it as a learning experience, and realize it's not personal, you will enjoy and appreciate the site more.


As for editing well from what I've seen, the amount of editing required also depends on the equipment as well as the size of the final pic to be uploaded.

It's a fact of life that no two bodies are the same, and some produce more grain and/or color inaccuracies than others regardless of lens used which usually means more post-processing. Thankfully the d3100, from my experience, does a good job with grain and color.

Also, the bigger the final result, the more editing usually required. Most of my 1400 / 1500 pixel pics would surely require less editing had I uploaded them at 1024 or 1200. Add to that the fact that we all have our own standards (aside from the website's) and you can easily see why editing times may differ.

Lastly, you get what you pay for with equipment, especially lenses. The ones that come as part of a kit (e.g the 18-55 / 55-200 etc) are usually of a lower quality. I didn't know what 'sharp' really meant until I upgraded my zoom to a better lens. It made a very noticeable difference and it had little or nothing to do with technique. Of course technique matters and knowing and shooting around the len's sweet spot is always ideal but there's only so much a cheaper lens can do for image quality.

So don't dismiss the idea of possibly picking up a better lens at some point. If you're after better images, regardless of how good a photographer you think you are, there will be a time when a lens upgrade is a necessity. And you don't need to pick up a >$1000 lens to start. You can get great lenses in the $300-$500 range. The lens I use here (tamron 70-300mm) was around $450 (with rebate $399) and it blows away the Nikon 55-200 and matches even the more expensive 70-300mm in many tests.
Nikon D7000 / Nikkor 105mm AF f2.8 / Nikkor 35 f1.8G / Nikkor 50 f1.8D / Nikkor 85mm / Nikkor 300mm f4 AF
 
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derekf
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RE: What Am I Doing Wrong With My Photos?

Mon Dec 24, 2012 11:18 pm

I think the problem may be those of us who were taking photos a long time before airliners.net was invented. We took photos for ourselves, the only thought being to please our own criteria, with only 36 exposures in a film and film and processing costing a fortune, getting it right in the camera was the only way to go.

The false standards I am talking about have been discussed many times before - the precise centring, the oversharpening that is required, the noiseless, grainless images which can look false and cartoon-like at times. Not to mention the required colour cast changes we've all had to make, regardless of how the scene really looked. The sometimes bizarre rules about parts the airframe being obscured by steps, grass, people etc... These "rules" have been introduced slowly and stealthily over the years such that they were barely noticed and have now become "normal". They are not normal requirements to get photos published anywhere else though.

Don't get me wrong, I would dearly love an acceptance ration like I used to have. Mainly so that the time spent isn't time wasted. Airliners.net is still the best on-line aircraft photo site and when I started uploading in 2000, it was place to share your pictures. Sadly, it has moved a long way from that now.
Whatever.......
 
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NZ107
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RE: What Am I Doing Wrong With My Photos?

Tue Dec 25, 2012 3:24 am

Quoting derekf (Reply 36):
when I started uploading in 2000, it was place to share your pictures. Sadly, it has moved a long way from that now.

You agree that things change over time.. The internet has evolved a lot since then (I didn't have knowledge of this thing called a digital camera until 2002 and didn't have broadband internet until 2006). You (the website in this case) gotta be able to differentiate yourself and sticking on the true hobby line isn't quite the way to go (also probably a reason for myaviation.net to start). There are so many other websites which don't have to be pure aviation sites in which you can upload these pictures to. But I also believe that it has helped many photographers like me to at least get a platform in photography. Without it, there wouldn't be anything to strive for and my photos would still probably be as horrible as when I started out taking photos. Then again, I do sometimes believe it goes too far with things like extreme borderline 'soft', and rejected only for that. But these are rather small points compared to the overall aspect of A.Net, unless your only objective is to upload here.. Obviously something frowned upon. IMO it wouldn't be the site it is now without the screening process that exists, however I still think that more artistic photographs should be accepted here.
It's all about the destination AND the journey.
 
vikkyvik
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RE: What Am I Doing Wrong With My Photos?

Tue Dec 25, 2012 4:39 am

Yes, the editing takes some work, especially when you're starting out. But:

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 37):
But these are rather small points compared to the overall aspect of A.Net, unless your only objective is to upload here.

I feel the same way, with the exception that I don't care if someone's only objective is to upload here. It's certainly not my problem, and if they're having fun and are content with only that, then that's fine with me.

Quoting derekf (Reply 36):
I think the problem may be those of us who were taking photos a long time before airliners.net was invented. We took photos for ourselves, the only thought being to please our own criteria, with only 36 exposures in a film and film and processing costing a fortune, getting it right in the camera was the only way to go.

Yes, and that's an often-cited aspect. But to be blunt, as someone who only started shooting AFTER digital and Photoshop, it's not a particularly relevant commentary, aside from the historical perspective aspect.

I'm not sure why uploading to A.net means you're not pleasing your own criteria. It's perfectly possible to do both. I don't upload anywhere near all the shots I take, because a lot of them would not meet A.net's criteria.

With that said, we wouldn't be here if we didn't enjoy sharing photos. And sometimes it's nice to take a photo that many others will enjoy, or that will make you some money, or whatever. Same as showing someone a physical photo album, and having them like your photos.

Quoting derekf (Reply 36):
when I started uploading in 2000, it was place to share your pictures. Sadly, it has moved a long way from that now.

It's still quite a nice place to share your photos.
I'm watching Jeopardy. The category is worst Madonna songs. "This one from 1987 is terrible".
 
dendrobatid
Posts: 1639
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RE: What Am I Doing Wrong With My Photos?

Tue Dec 25, 2012 8:33 am

Quoting derekf (Reply 36):
I think the problem may be those of us who were taking photos a long time before airliners.net was invented. We took photos for ourselves, the only thought being to please our own criteria, with only 36 exposures in a film and film and processing costing a fortune, getting it right in the camera was the only way to go.

Derek
Getting it right in camera is still the best option, then it was the ONLY option ! Those who, like me, did their own printing still used to adjust contrast, exposure, colour but in a darkroom but if an image was not sharp, that was effectively it, USM being a very difficult and fiddly process all but impossible with 35mm. Most editing that we do now on a computer was possible then but considerably more difficult in a darkroom

Quoting derekf (Reply 36):
Don't get me wrong, I would dearly love an acceptance ratio like I used to have. Mainly so that the time spent isn't time wasted. Airliners.net is still the best on-line aircraft photo site and when I started uploading in 2000, it was place to share your pictures. Sadly, it has moved a long way from that now.

Yes, things have changed and the standards have evolved, they have improved an awful lot from that period too. I took my photos never expecting to share them, took them to aid my memories and the site has allowed them to be seen by thousands. And as to those standards?

Quoting ckw (Reply 28):
I prefer to think of the criteria as a house style - either you work with it or don't bother uploading. Many magazines have similar constraints. If the house style doesn't match your shooting/editing style it's going to an uphill struggle - and ultimately unsatisfying

Colin has it spot on. This site is pretty formulaeic but get that formula right and it is not difficult to get images accepted - most people can do it. Another part of the evolution of the site was a move to accepting more images outside the formula, the so-called creative, and that has worked well but it does not mean that everyones attempts at being different should be accepted. Contre-jour lighting has also been mentioned above. It has never been an automatic rejection to be taking against the light (it is on some other sites) but it is far more difficult to get the image right but if you do it is likely to be accepted, as Walter shows above too.

Why worry about your acceptance rate ? It is not an issue since the link to upload limits was removed a long time ago.

This site (and initially it was ONLY this site until others copied it) has made our hobby far more popular and it remains different things to different people. Some want to take a photo that thousands will look at whilst others (myself included) are simply recording different aircraft, images that one day may be of interest. Photos that I took (for myself) forty odd years ago do attract interest and I hope that those I take today may be of interest in another forty years, long after I am gone. That they mostly are not these days does not bother me for that is my choice. My treat is to find and photograph an aircraft that is not on the database at all but that is likley to go unnoticed by the majority of viewers.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 38):
With that said, we wouldn't be here if we didn't enjoy sharing photos. And sometimes it's nice to take a photo that many others will enjoy, or that will make you some money, or whatever. Same as showing someone a physical photo album, and having them like your photos.

Yes, agree

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 38):
It's still quite a nice place to share your photos.

Yes, agree there too - and we are still here !

Mick Bajcar
 
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NZ107
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RE: What Am I Doing Wrong With My Photos?

Tue Dec 25, 2012 11:30 am

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 38):
I feel the same way, with the exception that I don't care if someone's only objective is to upload here. It's certainly not my problem, and if they're having fun and are content with only that, then that's fine with me.

It'd be a very expensive hobby if you only wanted to upload to A.Net, that's all I was trying to mean.
It's all about the destination AND the journey.
 
bricejohnson
Posts: 127
Joined: Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:35 am

RE: What Am I Doing Wrong With My Photos?

Thu Dec 27, 2012 1:18 am

Thanks for all the responses!

They will help me in my decision.

Does anyone know if the 70-300mm has a fast AF system? Is it still tack sharp at the 300mm side of lense?

Thanks! I thought that asking the pros would be the best idea!  
Calvin
 
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ptrjong
Posts: 4088
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2005 9:38 am

RE: What Am I Doing Wrong With My Photos?

Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:08 pm

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 40):

It'd be a very expensive hobby if you only wanted to upload to A.Net

Just as expensive actually.
The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
 
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yerbol
Crew
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RE: What Am I Doing Wrong With My Photos?

Thu Dec 27, 2012 11:05 pm

Dear Calvin,
Nikon 70-300mm AF-S lens is a very good lens. It is faster and obviously longer than 55-200mm.
Closing aperture to f8 should give you sharp image at 300mm but you also should have good VR in your own hands  
Ask your friends if they have one or rent it and try it in action. Try to see/find the difference in optical and speed quality.
Editing is a very interesting process for me personally. It shows me all my mistakes in unedited photo and I am learning to set up my equipment correctly and improve my technic. I am trying to get everything possible from me/my technic and my equipment to get the best out of these two things and if it is done well, minimum editing is required.
Friendly photographers already gave you good advises and ready to help.
Please do not give up and share some good photos with us.

To All,
We are approaching New Years Eve and on behalf of Almaty Spotting Club I wish you all the best in 2013!
Perhaps it is my last post in 2012  
It is a pleasure to our club members to see all your photos from every corner of our world.

PS. Air Astana ordered two Dreamliners [delivery 2016] so we hope to see you in Almaty!

Brgds
With best regards from Almaty
 
bricejohnson
Posts: 127
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RE: What Am I Doing Wrong With My Photos?

Fri Dec 28, 2012 1:35 am

Hello Yerbol.

Thanks for the response... it should help me in my purchasing decision!

Happy New Year all!
Calvin
 
megatop412
Posts: 341
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RE: What Am I Doing Wrong With My Photos?

Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:38 pm

Interesting how this subject comes up again and again, all that changes is who is saying it.

Derek I sympathize with your arguments as I have had much the same experience. There are many folks who are more than willing to help(as the person above has done), but in the end, as you and others have said, it's all about the editing.

It's also a gamble. I can't count the number of times I have seen examples of what shouldn't have been accepted, but trying to bring that to light here is considered poor form. As one gentleman noted above by posting one of his own images, he violated the 'no backlighting rule' and was accepted. So, the waters definitely get murky, and I do think it depends on which screener looks at your photos(despite the claims to the contrary). It's a shame, really, because I would love to be able to share my photos here. I do a fair amount of editing my shots to my standards, and I have a pretty critical eye. I just have no patience with being told that my skies are 'grainy' when in fact they were left unsharpened and shot with the base ISO. So, now I share my work on other sites, which is this site's loss.
 
dendrobatid
Posts: 1639
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RE: What Am I Doing Wrong With My Photos?

Sun Dec 30, 2012 9:19 am

Quoting megatop412 (Reply 45):
As one gentleman noted above by posting one of his own images, he violated the 'no backlighting rule' and was accepted

Another site has a rule against no backlit shots (I think) but that is not the case here. Backlit shots are however far more difficult to get right but if you do, they will be accepted and there are plenty of them on the database.
Walter's shot broke no rules, it is effective and so was accepted.

Mick Bajcar
 
JakTrax
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RE: What Am I Doing Wrong With My Photos?

Sun Dec 30, 2012 4:33 pm

Quoting megatop412 (Reply 45):
I have a pretty critical eye. I just have no patience with being told that my skies are 'grainy' when in fact they were left unsharpened and shot with the base ISO



I too have a critical eye (I'm sure a certain someone with whom I travelled to the States recently would be happy to testify as to how picky I can be!) but am very relaxed when it comes to grain - after all, it's a natural part of the photographic process and not (in my case at least) an editing error. It therefore gets me how other, more troubling offences - such as heat-haze - go mainly unchallenged. Heat-haze makes for a soft image at best, and is downright unsightly at worst, so I fail to understand how grain/noise is perceived as a fault or flaw. Heat-haze can also be avoided most of the time by simply reducing the distance between photographer and subject. And if it can't, the subject better be extremely rare!

In summary, heat-haze causes far more loss of image quality than grain ever will. It's disturbing when I get a 'quality' rejection due grain attached to an image shot at 70mm in perfect winter light, yet something shot at 400mm in crap summer light sails through.

C'est la vie......

Karl
 
ckw
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RE: What Am I Doing Wrong With My Photos?

Sun Dec 30, 2012 9:26 pm

As an objective (non-uploading) observer, I'm curious as to how (and why) the standards evolve ... the noise thing in particular (as it seems to cause a lot of issues).

Have things become stricter because cleaner, higher res sensors are available resulting in cleaner images in a wider range of conditions? Or is there a demand from viewers for cleaner images?

Similarly with sharpness - it seems from some comments that photographers feel obliged to "over sharpen" (by their standards) to meet acceptance requirements. Where is the 'demand' for this sharpness derived? (it is certainly WAY above publication standards - which generally prefer less sharpened or even unsharpened images).

Now I'm perfectly happy with the idea of a house style, however, it might be worth considering how such a style is arrived at and how it is allowed to evolve. If it is purely relative (ie. based on the quality of the top n% of images) then there is a real danger of acceptance becoming overly dependent on equipment owned. If it is not relative, then what measures can be offered to compare against. For example a patch of grey sky could be shown with an acceptable amount of noise which can be used to compare against.

Who benefits from higher standards? Are people not visiting A.net because the standards are not high enough? Is it possible that a more relaxed standard might result in a greater variety of images and photographers and therefore more visitors? Just some food for thought - remember what Voltaire said: "best is the enemy of the good".

Cheers,

Colin
Colin K. Work, Pixstel
 
JakTrax
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RE: What Am I Doing Wrong With My Photos?

Sun Dec 30, 2012 10:41 pm

Colin/All,

I remember a year or so back being told that the screeners were basically powerless to change the way the process works; I simply don't see how this can be true.

I wasn't really around much during the 'Johan years' but the standards he set were obviously much lower than today's. Quite remarkable that a non-photographer set the rules (did he have any experience or did he simply have preferences as a viewer?) but since his departure one can only assume that the screeners were left to preside over quality control. Likewise, some of this frankly anal nit-picking must have been devised by the screeners - leaving, as Colin says, the question relating to how we managed to get to this stage with regard to quality demands.

Presumably it starts with an idea, which causes a domino effect and soon becomes site policy. But in my opinion we're getting too fussy with the little bits - the ones that don't really matter - whilst at the same time missing the glaringly obvious. Images are getting done for grain and other trivial things left, right and centre, but you only have to look at a handful of images to see that the centre rule of late is all over the place.

Some of the rejection reasons I've heard recently (such as, "Over-exposed front portion of tail" and, "Grain in tail logo") suggest to me that the people scrutinising the photos are trained in image manipulation rather than photography. An image straight from a camera will never be perfect but that's what makes it a photo. We really shouldn't have to be using noise reduction on perfectly-exposed, ISO100 images. Nor should we expect a night shot with a long exposure to feature super-sharp wingtips, as an aircraft is moving all the time - even when apparently stationary.

We are now being asked to change the very laws of physics to get photos accepted here. It's just not possible, so we have little choice but to heavily manipulate our images to meet site criteria. This isn't photography.

I've not uploaded in nearly a month now, because I'm a little fed up of being told that my images are effectively not good enough. I only shoot in premium light (as those who know me will testify), at sensitivities typically no higher than ISO200; I rarely have to crop or level (thus preserving as much quality as I can) yet still I get images shot down for various 'quality issues' - all because I've not applied the exact editing needed. And while all this is going on, scores of mediocre and even poor images are being added.

No doubt I will upload here again at some point but while I'm abstaining it's the site's loss, not mine. I make quite a few sales from my images hosted here, so that's motivation to continue, but it's a sad state of affairs when that's one of my primary reasons for persisting with A.net.

Finally, to address the thread starter, the equipment you choose is pretty irrelevant these days but as a beginner I certainly wouldn't be aiming for the high-end stuff just now. Sure, good gear is nice but it doesn't really make the going a whole lot easier, especially given the editing required. I've got some of the best gear going but as mentioned it doesn't exempt me from the hoard of rejection reasons in force here. Seems like the only cameras that can naturally produce the sliky-smooth images preferred here are the current crop of full-frame bodies - which cost well in excess of $4,000.

Cheers, and Happy New Year to all!

Karl

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