ckw
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Canon 70D

Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:24 am

This is the spec for the Canon 70D according to Canon rumours. Expect an announcment next week. Note that this one will have both a new sensor and new AF system

20.2mp CMOS Sensor
DIGIC 5+
19pt AF System (All Cross Type)
7fps
Built-in WiFi
3″ Vari-Angle Touch Screen LCD
ISO 12,800 Maximum
Dual Pixel CMOS Autofocus
Full HD Video
HDR
Multiexposure Mode
LP-E6 Battery
Announcement on July 2, 2013

Cheers,

Colin
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angad84
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RE: Canon 70D

Fri Jun 28, 2013 10:58 am

If that AF system is solid, I will stop waiting for the 7D Mk2. I hate being a guinea pig for new tech, though :p

Any word on AF microadjustment?

Cheers
 
JakTrax
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RE: Canon 70D

Fri Jun 28, 2013 2:15 pm

Hopefully they'll re-introduce magnesium alloy bodies in the XXD range with this latest model. The plastic body of the 60D was the first thing that put me right off!

Karl
 
vikkyvik
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RE: Canon 70D

Fri Jun 28, 2013 2:36 pm

Quoting ckw (Thread starter):
ISO 12,800 Maximum

Surprised they haven't increased that at all. The 50D has 12800 max too.

Quoting angad84 (Reply 1):
Any word on AF microadjustment?

Yup, wouldn't even consider it without that.
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southwest9
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RE: Canon 70D

Fri Jun 28, 2013 5:38 pm

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 3):
Surprised they haven't increased that at all. The 50D has 12800 max too.

True, but would you really ever want to shoot with your iso at 12800? I hope that they work on the noise control so that 12800 becomes more usable and not just some sort of last resort.
 
vikkyvik
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RE: Canon 70D

Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:10 pm

Quoting southwest9 (Reply 4):
True, but would you really ever want to shoot with your iso at 12800?

Yes. Orion Nebula shot at ISO 12800:



With a new sensor with presumably better noise control, it seems logical that they'd extend the ISO range.
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Newark727
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RE: Canon 70D

Fri Jun 28, 2013 10:46 pm

What would the WiFi be for? Is that something cameras have been doing a lot recently? I'm kind of out of the loop, as I haven't needed a new body since getting a 50D at the end of 2009.
 
ckw
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RE: Canon 70D

Sat Jun 29, 2013 12:17 am

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 6):

What would the WiFi be for? Is that something cameras have been doing a lot recently?

Not something I would want as I don't like the idea of sending/posting unedited files anywhere, but for some this is a real big deal - upload files to Flickr or Facebook as you shoot. For photojournalists (though they probably won't be buying 70Ds) this is a very valuable feature. Expect it to be standard in all new models.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 3):
Surprised they haven't increased that at all. The 50D has 12800 max too.

I wonder if this a deliberate "crippling" of the camera - ie. the sensor may be capable of better, but they're not going to allow you to exceed 12800 in order to allow some differentiation with more expensive models

Quoting angad84 (Reply 1):
Any word on AF microadjustment?

No, and again this may be a deliberate omission to help ensure sales of the 7D mk II.

I would guess that the 70D will be as per the Canon Rumours spec, and the 7D mk II will possible use a similar sensor but with an AF more like the 5D3, dual processors (dedicated AF processor) magnesium body and microadjustment.

The big mystery for me is the new AF system - supposedly much faster in live view, but unclear whether it will support continuous focus ... if it does, that would be a big deal for anyone shooting video.


Cheers,

Colin
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Newark727
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RE: Canon 70D

Sat Jun 29, 2013 5:00 am

Quoting ckw (Reply 7):
Not something I would want as I don't like the idea of sending/posting unedited files anywhere, but for some this is a real big deal - upload files to Flickr or Facebook as you shoot. For photojournalists (though they probably won't be buying 70Ds) this is a very valuable feature. Expect it to be standard in all new models.

That makes sense, though I was thinking something along the lines of a replacement for having a memory card reader attached to my laptop.
 
angad84
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RE: Canon 70D

Sat Jun 29, 2013 7:16 am

Quoting JakTrax (Reply 2):
Hopefully they'll re-introduce magnesium alloy bodies in the XXD range with this latest model. The plastic body of the 60D was the first thing that put me right off!

Yep, that and the lousy weathersealing. Unfortunately, regardless of the material, it appears that the weathersealing will not improve where it matters most, thanks to the articulating screen. Again, Canon seems to focusing too much on the video-shooting crowd.

btw, happy A.net birthday!

Quoting ckw (Reply 7):
I wonder if this a deliberate "crippling" of the camera - ie. the sensor may be capable of better, but they're not going to allow you to exceed 12800 in order to allow some differentiation with more expensive models

I wouldn't be surprised.
 
dazbo5
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RE: Canon 70D

Sat Jun 29, 2013 9:10 am

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 6):
What would the WiFi be for?

For wireless transfer to a storage device, for example a laptop. Rather than thinking WiFi for internat connection, it can be used simply to transfer photos from the camera to a laptop, iPad etc as they're taken or once returned from a shoot. It just negates the need for wires or memory card readers. A feature many won't use or find useful, but some will. I'm in the process of toying ith the idea of replacing one of the memory cards in my video system with an eye-fi card for the same reason.

Darren
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PMN
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RE: Canon 70D

Sun Jun 30, 2013 8:27 am

I'm disappointed to see they've piled even more megapixels onto an APS-C sensor. No doubt the processing will be better than the 7D and noise performance will be improved (not that I ever found the 7D terribly noisy in normal use anyway) but such a densely packed sensor really puts serious demands on lenses in terms of sharpness. With such a sensible pixel count on the 1DX and the 5D3 remaining similar to the 5D2 I hoped Canon had started seeing sense and stopped joining in the nonsense pixel race but perhaps not. Or perhaps they've kept the top end sensible because pro/sensible amateur shooters generally know exactly what they need, and as the 70D is part of a lower range perhaps they're thinking people might just be taken in by more pixels?
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ckw
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RE: Canon 70D

Sun Jun 30, 2013 9:41 pm

Quoting PMN (Reply 11):
I'm disappointed to see they've piled even more megapixels onto an APS-C sensor.

Agreed - even if Canon have sprinkled magic fairey dust on the sensor, an equivalent 12-15 mp sensor would be of higher quality. And the situation is aggravated by the fact that people buying a x0 series are probably less likely to buy a high quality lens than someone who an x series.

Sad fact is that at the consumer/pro-sumer level, pixel count still carries a lot of weight. And of course the various photomags are also at fault by the way they do comparisons, and not making clear the pros and cons of pixel count.

Cheers,

Colin
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RE: Canon 70D

Mon Jul 01, 2013 2:52 am

For me 20MP is overkill, still love my 10MP 40D and can shoot all day and then some in RAW with an 8GB card  
 
ckw
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RE: Canon 70D

Tue Jul 02, 2013 8:20 am

Well it's officially announced.

The headline news is of course all live view/video related, with the new AF system which allows for continuous focus when shooting video. That will be a huge feature for many, possibly as significant as putting video in the 5D2.

Personally I don't shoot video by choice, however, professionally I'm being asked to do so more and more often - this camera promises to make that a LOT easier, so I'll be looking at this one very closely.

On the still camera side not so much to offer that's new - though it uses the same AF and metering as the 7D and is nearly as fast. It does have micro-adjust as well. What it does have over the 7D is an articulated rear screen. I think this is quite important - something I use a lot with my OM-D. One of those things you don't fully appreciate until you use it.

Image quality - we'll have to wait and see. But if it is as good as the 7D (and yes, the 7D should be better!)I think I' could live with that and buy it as a 2nd body and video camera as it appears to add some useful capability lacking in my 5D3.

Price is pretty good - just over under $1200/ £1100. Anyone still interested in the 7D should probably wait a bit as this is sure to cause the price of that model to drop.

Cheers.
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angad84
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RE: Canon 70D

Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:46 am

I think apart from weather-sealing (thanks to the articulated screen) this camera is the true 50D replacement that many had hoped for back when the disappointing 60D was foisted on us.

I will miss the quick-control joystick from the 50D, but I think it's upgrade time for me.

Cheers
 
ckw
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RE: Canon 70D

Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:52 am

I think people get overly concerned about weather sealing ...

1 - weather sealed cameras are not RELIABLY weather sealed - sure, they offer some protection, but I would never assume that the camera is certain to survive a rain storm etc. I have personally seen many pro Canon cameras die in situation where you might have thought the wetaher sealing should have protected them.

2 - non weather sealed cameras don't generally melt at the first drop of rain - my orginal 5D (which is certainly not weather sealed) survived 5 years of sailing photography ... salt spray, rain, being knocked about in the bottom of boats - and, quite remarkably - sitting in an inch of salt water for over an hour. Of course ...

3 - ... if you really want to shoot in harsh conditions, then you really should invest in additional protection. I use Stormforce covers - simple, quick to put on, and can be stuffed in a pocket if not needed. Yes they are probably over priced for what they are (£30 - £50), but they work on any spec camera and are a lot cheaper than the premium you'd pay for a weather sealed body.

BTW - the articulated screen does not preclude weather sealing - Olympus had weather sealed articulated screens from day one.

Another thought ... you could think of the inclusion of WiFi as a form of weather sealing ... no need to open up the camera or remove the cover to change cards!

Cheers,

Colin
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RE: Canon 70D

Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:59 am

Quoting ckw (Reply 14):
Anyone still interested in the 7D should probably wait a bit as this is sure to cause the price of that model to drop

Agree and its still a good option - I do wonder where Canon are going to pitch (any) upgrade/replacement of it tho given the specs below.

http://cpn.canon-europe.com/content/...es_with_brand_new_af_technology.do

Quoting PMN (Reply 11):
I'm disappointed to see they've piled even more megapixels onto an APS-C sensor

Me too - Gonna have to see some real world examples of this sensor myself before taking a dip.

T
 
ckw
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RE: Canon 70D

Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:25 am

Now this is cool - sort of a hidden bonus of the new AF system:

When shooting in live view, whether still or video, the AF system is unaffected by the lens aperture ... ie it works regardless of the aperture. So stick a 2x convertor on your 100-400 and you will still have AF ... and that AF can be on any pixel within the central 80% of the screen - no fixed focus points as every pixel is a focus point - you can just touch the screen to tell the camera where to focus.

The more I read about it the more I want this camera - for my work it could be a game changer, letting me do things which were impossible or very difficult before. I'm hoping the sensor is reasonably noise free, but frankly, if I can get the shot I'm happy to put up with a bit more work in post processing.

And the entry fee for this new technology is not prohibitive. Of course it does make me wonder what the 7D mk 2 will be like!

Cheers,

Colin
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angad84
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RE: Canon 70D

Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:55 am

Point taken Colin. I was indeed going off assumptions re: weather sealing.

DPReview has a spec sheet up that states the 70D is "water and dust resistant" and I've read elsewhere that it has the same polycarbonate-on-aluminum construction as the 60D. So that's nice.

Regardless of comparisons to the 7D/7Dmk2, the 70D certainly feels like a solid step up from my 50D.

And image/video samples are available here - http://web.canon.jp/imaging/eosd/samples/eos70d/

Those are JPEGs straight from the camera, so I imagine with proper processing, one could get even better results. The 3200 ISO jazz saxophonist was particularly impressive but the 1600 ISO butterflies were not. The samples also really highlight the importance of good glass. The waterfall shot with the EF-S 10-22mm is pretty soft considering the EXIF provided, but the bird shot with the 300mm 2.8L is ridiculously sharp. In fact most of the L-glass shots are good (135L, 24-70 mk2)

I really hope this can be made available before MAKS.

Cheers

[Edited 2013-07-02 04:56:49]
 
trvyyz
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RE: Canon 70D

Tue Jul 02, 2013 12:08 pm

The jpgs on the canon website look impressive, wonder how the raw would look like. IQ seems to be not worse than 7D, the high ISO is pretty good at 3200, but too early to tell with these few samples.
 
ckw
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RE: Canon 70D

Tue Jul 02, 2013 12:53 pm

I'm always cautious with Canon samples - doesn't always reflect real world ... though interesting point about lens differences. I think it is generally accepted that increasing the pixel density makes more demands on the glass (there's probably a relationship between lens resolution and pixel density)

Availability - just phoned LCE here in the UK (to put my name down!) and was told they were expecting them before end on month. They didn't have a firm price yet, but when I mentioned around £1000, they said they hoped to be below that.

Cheers,

Colin
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RE: Canon 70D

Tue Jul 02, 2013 3:39 pm

Seems like a very good camera with some fantastic features. A nice improvement over the 60D.
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dazbo5
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RE: Canon 70D

Tue Jul 02, 2013 3:50 pm

Quoting trvyyz (Reply 20):
The jpgs on the canon website look impressive, wonder how the raw would look like

I've just looked at a couple of them and my first impression is there's quite noticable noise in the sky on the waterfall photo, even at ISO 100. Noise control doesn't look too bad on the others given their respective ISO's, but from what I can see, it's not great either.

Darren
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trvyyz
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RE: Canon 70D

Tue Jul 02, 2013 4:52 pm

Quoting dazbo5 (Reply 23):

Reply 23, posted Tue Jul 2 2013 11:50:13 your local time (58 minutes 18 secs ago) and read 13 times:

Even the 18MP sensor had noise in the sky at iso 100, based on the 60d I used, the high iso's look better on this one imo. A silky smooth sky is a thing of the past it seems.
 
angad84
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RE: Canon 70D

Tue Jul 02, 2013 5:22 pm

Quoting dazbo5 (Reply 23):
I've just looked at a couple of them and my first impression is there's quite noticable noise in the sky on the waterfall photo, even at ISO 100.

A lot of that has to do with in-camera processing of the JPEGs. You're likely to get much better results working from RAW.

Quoting ckw (Reply 21):
they were expecting them before end on month

Wow! I hope it hits India that soon too. I'll be glad to have extra time to familiarise myself with it before Moscow.

Cheers
 
vikkyvik
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RE: Canon 70D

Tue Jul 02, 2013 5:26 pm

Eh....I don't think there's anything here that would make me upgrade from my 50D. Then again, I'd probably upgrade to full-frame if I were going to upgrade. I personally don't see much point in going from 50D to 60D, 70D, or 7D, especially since I don't shoot video.

Quoting ckw (Reply 18):
When shooting in live view, whether still or video, the AF system is unaffected by the lens aperture ... ie it works regardless of the aperture.

Does that work in normal (non-live view) shooting too? I never shoot in live view, so just wondering.

Also, note that ISO actually goes up to 25600 (they call it 12800 standard, 25600 expanded or whatever....never understood why they do that). So there we go.
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dazbo5
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RE: Canon 70D

Tue Jul 02, 2013 6:49 pm

Quoting angad84 (Reply 25):
A lot of that has to do with in-camera processing of the JPEGs. You're likely to get much better results working from RAW.

I'm aware of that but even so, it seems an excessive amount of noise at ISO 100. It certainly wouldn't inspire me to upgrade from the 50D on noise performance alone.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 26):
Eh....I don't think there's anything here that would make me upgrade from my 50D.

I agree.

Darren
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JakTrax
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RE: Canon 70D

Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:44 pm

Quoting Dazed767 (Reply 13):
For me 20MP is overkill, still love my 10MP 40D

I think the 30/40D hit the perfect balance between image clarity and noise performance. The 50D is very reasonable too, although dark cloud can lead to some excessive grain at times. I wish I'd kept my 30D as it was the best camera I've ever owned, all things considered. When I upgrade to FF later this year I will hold on to the 50D as it's the second best camera I've had.

Quoting trvyyz (Reply 24):
A silky smooth sky is a thing of the past it seems

Unfortunately yes, unless you go FF. Or unless sensor technology advances in the next few years.

Quoting ckw (Reply 14):
What it does have over the 7D is an articulated rear screen. I think this is quite important

I always find a tall set of steps often eliminates the need for this......  

Karl
 
ckw
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RE: Canon 70D

Tue Jul 02, 2013 8:41 pm

Quoting JakTrax (Reply 28):
I always find a tall set of steps often eliminates the need for this......

Yeah, but you tend to find people object to this at a concert  

I'm not sure the camera offers that much more to the dedicated aviation stills photographer (video is another matter!) - but for me it addresses some real needs

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 26):
Does that work in normal (non-live view) shooting too? I never shoot in live view, so just wondering.

No. In effect this camera has two AF systems. When shooting in live view, AF is performed on the sensor using Canon's new dual pixel technology.

When shooting through the viewfinder, the camera uses a "standard" AF sensor - in fact it uses the same one as the 7D (no bad thing!).

Each has advantages:

The 7D type sensor is going to be a bit faster and possibly more sensitive. Having owned a 7D I can attest that AF is a very strong feature in this camera.

As the new dual pixel system is working off the actual image sensor, lens aperture is irrelevant and it will also be impervious to front or back focusing. Also, most of the sensor area (80%) can be 'live' - you don;t need to compose around fixed AF points.

Quoting trvyyz (Reply 24):
A silky smooth sky is a thing of the past it seems.

'fraid so - even my wonderful 5d3 is not as clean as the original 5D at 100 ISO. But, the fact is, that in "real world" a bit of noise is simply not a problem - I've had a cover shot published which was shot on a 7D at 400 ISO - no trace of noise is visible in the printed product.

I think we've perhaps become over sensitized to noise by endless comparisons. Yes, noise is an issue, but there is I think a threshold below which it's a non-issue. In the last year or so I've been forced to push the ISO beyond my comfort zone on paid for shoots - it was do that or lose the shot. I worried about this A LOT at first, but absolutely no-one has commented on this. I guess we need to learn to accept that some level of noise is a fact of life just as film grain was.

I still think the manufacturer's push too many pixels onto the sensors, but on the other hand, I wouldn't want to drop below 10mp again which may be the only way to get truly clean images.

Cheers,

Colin
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vikkyvik
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RE: Canon 70D

Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:41 pm

Quoting ckw (Reply 29):
I think we've perhaps become over sensitized to noise by endless comparisons

Maybe, but I have to agree with Darren:

Quoting dazbo5 (Reply 27):
I'm aware of that but even so, it seems an excessive amount of noise at ISO 100. It certainly wouldn't inspire me to upgrade from the 50D on noise performance alone.

My 50D has quite low-noise photos at ISO160 and less. The skies are particularly quite nice, since I hate having to deal with noisy skies!

Quoting ckw (Reply 29):
Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 26):
Does that work in normal (non-live view) shooting too? I never shoot in live view, so just wondering.

No.

Ahhh....well that's a shame.
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ckw
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RE: Canon 70D

Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:23 pm

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 30):
Maybe, but I have to agree with Darren:

I'm not sure these test shots tell us much - image 3 is noisier than I would like, but image 5 looks pretty good - both at ISO 100. I think image 3 is a tad underexposed ... and we know that in the case of the 7D underexposure is to be avoided!

I'm reserving judgement until we have some real world images from people who know what they're doing. I'm pretty sure these were all shot based on the camera's metering - its very seldom I've shot anything on a Canon without some form of exposure compensation!

Cheers,

Colin
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GuitrThree
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RE: Canon 70D

Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:53 pm

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 6):
What would the WiFi be for?
Quoting ckw (Reply 7):

Not something I would want as I don't like the idea of sending/posting unedited files anywhere

It goes beyond that. My 6D has the wifi and with the iPhone or Android App you can do remote shooting. You can change all the settings, Ap, Shutter Speed, Iso, and see a live view on the phone before snapping the picture. And yes, then you can transfer the files to your phone/ipad/tablet. You cannot shoot live video using the wifi/app, however.

Pretty handy in some situations.
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vikkyvik
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RE: Canon 70D

Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:05 pm

Quoting ckw (Reply 31):
I'm reserving judgement until we have some real world images from people who know what they're doing. I'm pretty sure these were all shot based on the camera's metering - its very seldom I've shot anything on a Canon without some form of exposure compensation!

That's a fair point. And I've almost exclusively shot full manual for the last 2 years, so can't comment too knowledgeably on that!

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 32):
It goes beyond that. My 6D has the wifi and with the iPhone or Android App you can do remote shooting. You can change all the settings, Ap, Shutter Speed, Iso, and see a live view on the phone before snapping the picture. And yes, then you can transfer the files to your phone/ipad/tablet. You cannot shoot live video using the wifi/app, however.

Pretty handy in some situations.

That's actually pretty cool!
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ckw
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RE: Canon 70D

Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:29 pm

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 32):
You can change all the settings, Ap, Shutter Speed, Iso, and see a live view on the phone before snapping the picture. And yes, then you can transfer the files to your phone/ipad/tablet. You cannot shoot live video using the wifi/app, however.

Didn't realise that - if the 70D adds video, that would be a real bonus for me - I use a GoPro that way at the moment on location shoots ,,, the 70D would give me another angle with a wider lens choice. Since the 70D has a touch screen interface for focus it should be possible to incorporate that into the app. That would be cool!

Cheers,

Colin
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RE: Canon 70D

Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:33 am

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 33):
That's actually pretty cool!

And I should expand just a little more. The camera can act two different ways in wifi. You can connect it to your home or any wifi network, and set your phone to see it through that.
However, it also will work as the router itself. Say you are out at the airport. You set your camera "to be the router" and then you connect your phone to it's wifi network (very simple to do). You can then use your phone for remote shooting and transferring of files where ever you want. You don't have to have any sort of Internet connection at all. You can use this wifi feature in the middle of the desert if you want. Of course, you can't send the pictures from your phone until you get service on it, but wifi will work anywhere for shooting/transferring.

[Edited 2013-07-02 19:36:06]
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dazbo5
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RE: Canon 70D

Wed Jul 03, 2013 7:24 am

Quoting ckw (Reply 31):
I'm reserving judgement until we have some real world images from people who know what they're doing.

But isn't that partly the point? Not everyone who uses one of these will be a seasoned professional and have a light meter and be shooting manual all the time. Most (and this is very generalistic) will probably stick to Av at f/8 and have done with it. I still feel a modern camera in this price range and class shouldn't be as noisy as that in the examples posted. They aren't exactly great adverts for Canon. Whether the exposure is off a little or not, there's still noise where many other cameras wouldn't be showing it. Other features aside, I'd be sticking to my current camera!

Darren
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ckw
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RE: Canon 70D

Wed Jul 03, 2013 8:30 am

Quoting dazbo5 (Reply 36):
But isn't that partly the point? Not everyone who uses one of these will be a seasoned professional and have a light meter and be shooting manual all the time. Most (and this is very generalistic) will probably stick to Av at f/8 and have done with it.

Well yes, but from a purely selfish point of view I'm only interested in whether the camera will work for me!  

There is no doubt that Canon sensors are lacking in both noise control and dynamic range compared to say, the Sony sensors used by Nikon, but are they good enough? Presumably Canon are well aware of this but have decided that pixel count and/or other features are more important as well as maintaining an appropriate price point. You could argue that for the program mode shooter pixel count is more important than ultimate noise control.

Cheers,

Colin
Colin K. Work, Pixstel
 
Bestof79
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RE: Canon 70D

Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:06 am

Hi, may this helps to some of the upcoming questions...


Canon EOS 70D key features

20.2MP APS-C 'Dual Pixel CMOS AF' sensor
DIGIC 5+ image processor
ISO 100-12800 standard, 25600 expanded
7fps continuous shooting, burst depth 65 JPEG / 16 RAW
'Silent' shutter mode
1080p30 video recording, stereo sound via external mic
19-point AF system, all points cross-type, sensitive to -0.5 EV
63-zone iFCL metering system
98% viewfinder coverage, 0.95x magnification, switchable gridlines and electronic level display
Fully-articulated touchscreen, 1040k dot 3" ClearView II LCD, 3:2 aspect ratio
Single SD/SDHC/SDXC card slot
Built-in Wi-Fi
Single-axis electronic level
Built-in flash works as off-camera remote flash controller
AF microadjustment (can be set individually for up to 40 lenses, remembered by lens serial number)
In-camera High Dynamic Range and Multiple Exposure modes (JPEG-only)
'Creative Filter' image processing styles, previewed in live view

The info is taken by the hands on preview from dpreview.com.
 
megatop412
Posts: 342
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RE: Canon 70D

Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:23 pm

Quoting angad84 (Reply 15):
when the disappointing 60D was foisted on us.

Really? Nobody's 'foisting' anything on you. If you lived in East Germany in the 60's and needed a car, and the only game in town was the crappy Trabant and you had to wait 5 years just to purchase one, then one could say it had been 'foisted' upon you. In our wonderful free-market society, you were always free to switch to Nikon if you were that disappointed in your upgrade options.

Quoting ckw (Reply 29):
I think we've perhaps become over sensitized to noise by endless comparisons.

Bingo, thank you, Colin. I would certainly be looking at the 70D if I was a Canon shooter, it looks fantastic. Can't wait to see shots uploaded here taken with it.
 
angad84
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RE: Canon 70D

Thu Jul 04, 2013 7:45 am

Quoting megatop412 (Reply 39):
Really? Nobody's 'foisting' anything on you. If you lived in East Germany in the 60's and needed a car, and the only game in town was the crappy Trabant and you had to wait 5 years just to purchase one, then one could say it had been 'foisted' upon you.

Haha, easy there tiger. I just meant that the xxD line (as well as the 7D) was due for an update and I know many users were itching for something awesome from Canon and the 60D just felt like a downgrade, leaving us with a 2+ year wait for the 70D which is at least worth calling a successor to the 50D.

Quoting megatop412 (Reply 39):
In our wonderful free-market society, you were always free to switch to Nikon if you were that disappointed in your upgrade options.

A lot of people seem to think that's easy to do. At the time the 60D was released, I was in Uni and it had taken ages for me to invest in good glass for the Canon system and switching to Nikon wasn't financially viable. Maybe today I could do it if Canon dropepd the ball with the 70D and Nikon aced the top-end APS-C segment but for a lot of people, switching systems isn't so simple.
 
dazbo5
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RE: Canon 70D

Thu Jul 04, 2013 7:56 am

Quoting angad84 (Reply 40):
leaving us with a 2+ year wait for the 70D which is at least worth calling a successor to the 50D

I think that remains to be seen on the samples provided by Canon. From what I've see so far, there's nothing that really inspires me to swap the 50D's anytime soon. While it's far from the perfect camera body, unless you need some of the additional features the 70D introduces, mainly with video, is there really much of a step forward here? Full frame is probably the next upgrade path but that's not in the pipe line personally for the time being.

Darren
Equipment: 2x Canon EOS 50D; Sigma 10-20 EX DC HSM, 50-500 EX APO DG, Canon 24-105 f/4 L, Speedlite 430EX
 
angad84
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RE: Canon 70D

Thu Jul 04, 2013 10:31 am

Darren, one of my favourite times to shoot is late evening/twilight and I have a very hard time getting good results in that light with the 50D.

I love the 50D up to ISO 200 in broad daylight but it's not fun early in the morning or late in the evening when the light is at its best.
 
ckw
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RE: Canon 70D

Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:12 am

Quoting dazbo5 (Reply 41):
Full frame is probably the next upgrade path but that's not in the pipe line personally for the time being.

I find it interesting that full frame is often discussed as an upgrade path (and I'm sure Canon are delighted to hear that!) - but I see it differently.

In effect we now have 3 formats capable of producing 'professional' quality images:

crop DSLR
full frame DSLR
micro 4/3 (and the various other offerings in this range)

While it is true that you will be able to detect differences in quality when pixel peeping on the computer screen, the fact is very few, if anyone will be able to tell what camera produced a final image - whether in print or here on A,net.

Forget image quality - they are all "good enough" ... it seems to me that what really matters are the inherent benefits and problems of each of the formats in its own right as these will have a much bigger impact on how you capture the image. (eg. size and weight; reach; frame rate; DoF etc.). In certain instances (eg. street photography) m4/3 may well be the better camera than FF. For aviation, crop sensors offer big advantages over FF.

In absolute image quality terms, FF may be better BUT it comes at a price.

Back in the film days, no one disputed the superiority of medium format over 35mm in terms of image quality, yet 35mm was still format of choice for many top photographers.

Ultimately, image quality doesn't matter one iota if the camera you're using is not the right tool for the job.

What Canon currently lacks is an upgrade path for the crop shooter, but presumable this will be addressed by the 7D mk 2

(in the interests of full disclosure, I have a 5D3 and an OMD-E5, which I use according to their suitability to the task. I have my name down for a 70D as it extends my flexibility. I know image quality from any of these cameras will be good enough to satisfy the client).

Cheers,

Colin
Colin K. Work, Pixstel
 
dazbo5
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RE: Canon 70D

Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:38 am

Quoting ckw (Reply 43):
Forget image quality - they are all "good enough"

I quite agree Colin, which is why I say there's not really any benefit in an upgrade from the 50D to 70D based on the specs quoted, unless you want the video side of it. I have a Legria G25 for that though!

Quoting angad84 (Reply 42):
one of my favourite times to shoot is late evening/twilight and I have a very hard time getting good results in that light with the 50D. I love the 50D up to ISO 200 in broad daylight but it's not fun early in the morning or late in the evening when the light is at its best.

Which is where I think it remains to be seen what the ISO performance of the new sensor is. Looking at the samples provided by Canon, they aren't too bad at higher ISO's but not that great either. I regularly use the 50D at ISO400, even up to ISO800 if needed and rarely have a problem providing the exposure is bang on or preferably marginally over exposed. While noise isn't as well controlled as the 70D should be, it's still perfectly usable.

Darren
Equipment: 2x Canon EOS 50D; Sigma 10-20 EX DC HSM, 50-500 EX APO DG, Canon 24-105 f/4 L, Speedlite 430EX
 
chris78cpr
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RE: Canon 70D

Thu Jul 04, 2013 4:04 pm

I have to say it does make me laugh when i see people say "When i upgrade to full frame" and the like.

Like Colin mentioned, there are 3 distinct 'crop' factors today that provide images for many professional applications.

It really does surprise me when people think full frame is the way to go for aviation though. If you shoot aviation and aviation only with your cameras then you are by far better off sticking with a 1.6x crop body and spending the surplus money on either better lenses or some training on how to get the most from a well captured RAW file from the camera.

I shoot full frame for aviation alongside a 7D. Yes the full frame does a marvellous job at providing beautiful images but between my 5D3 and 5D2 i have about £4500 in cameras. That could buy a 7D, 70-200F2.8LIS, 1.4xIII and a 100-400LIS. The only reason i use full frame is because these cameras are used to photograph stuff that pays my bills and are used for aviation as a by product.

The 7D is a great camera, the 70D looks to be a great camera, i seriously urge everyone who thinks full frame is the answer to carefully consider whether you need it before spending ultimately what is a LOT of money. I find reach with my FF's becomes a problem as my 70-200 with 1.4 is only 280mm, my 100-400 doesn't work great on the 5D2 and on the 5D3 you have to be careful with it. The 7D is my goto camera for anything that needs 300mm or more as that paired with a 100-400 gives outstanding results.

This may sound like a rant, it really isn't i just urge people to really consider whether their needs actually dictate a full frame product when items like the 70D in question can be had for half the price and will produce a cracking image.
5D2/7D/1D2(soon to be a 1Dx) 17-40L/24-105L/70-200F2.8L/100-400L/24F1.4LII/50F1.2L/85F1.2LII
 
Silver1SWA
Crew
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RE: Canon 70D

Thu Jul 04, 2013 5:20 pm

Quoting dazbo5 (Reply 41):
I think that remains to be seen on the samples provided by Canon.

True, but I'm confident that real-world results will show that the 70D will be excellent with regard to image quality and ISO performance.

Quoting angad84 (Reply 42):
Darren, one of my favourite times to shoot is late evening/twilight and I have a very hard time getting good results in that light with the 50D.

This is a great point. If someone likes shooting in more difficult conditions, the ability to shoot at ISO 800 and up regularly is a great reason to upgrade to a newer camera. I love my 40D, but it just doesn't cut it anymore when talking low light.

Quoting ckw (Reply 43):
I find it interesting that full frame is often discussed as an upgrade path (and I'm sure Canon are delighted to hear that!) - but I see it differently.

I see full frame as an upgrade because it typically offers superior image quality and superior ISO performance. But yes, you pay more for that. When using FF, I feel free to change settings without much concern for how IQ will be affected. That's a nice feeling after spending money on the "upgrade".

Quoting chris78cpr (Reply 45):
I have to say it does make me laugh when i see people say "When i upgrade to full frame" and the like.

Like Colin mentioned, there are 3 distinct 'crop' factors today that provide images for many professional applications.

It really does surprise me when people think full frame is the way to go for aviation though. If you shoot aviation and aviation only with your cameras then you are by far better off sticking with a 1.6x crop body and spending the surplus money on either better lenses or some training on how to get the most from a well captured RAW file from the camera.

I shoot full frame for aviation alongside a 7D. Yes the full frame does a marvellous job at providing beautiful images but between my 5D3 and 5D2 i have about £4500 in cameras. That could buy a 7D, 70-200F2.8LIS, 1.4xIII and a 100-400LIS. The only reason i use full frame is because these cameras are used to photograph stuff that pays my bills and are used for aviation as a by product.

The 7D is a great camera, the 70D looks to be a great camera, i seriously urge everyone who thinks full frame is the answer to carefully consider whether you need it before spending ultimately what is a LOT of money. I find reach with my FF's becomes a problem as my 70-200 with 1.4 is only 280mm, my 100-400 doesn't work great on the 5D2 and on the 5D3 you have to be careful with it. The 7D is my goto camera for anything that needs 300mm or more as that paired with a 100-400 gives outstanding results.

This may sound like a rant, it really isn't i just urge people to really consider whether their needs actually dictate a full frame product when items like the 70D in question can be had for half the price and will produce a cracking image.

I own the 7D and the 5D2 and I have to say there really is no comparison with regard to image quality at full resolution. 5D2 is the clear winner. At 1024x, you can't tell the difference unless both are shot at very high ISOs. When handling full res RAW files, going back and viewing 7D images after doing a batch of 5D2 images is like taking my glasses off at the end of a long day.    Ok, exaggerating a bit, but there is a noticeable difference in clarity and detail. But like I said above, FF is also an upgrade in high ISO capability. If you shoot aviation, but like to push boundaries in difficult conditions, FF will be a better tool. For me personally, that is worth more than the issue of "reach". But to each his own.

Back to the 70D vs 50D and the sample images. I see a lot of grumbling about noise at low ISOs on newer Canons. I wonder if you take a 70D photo and size down to 50D resolution, if the image quality would be same.  scratchchin 

[Edited 2013-07-04 10:26:32]
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
vikkyvik
Posts: 11857
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2003 1:58 pm

RE: Canon 70D

Thu Jul 04, 2013 7:09 pm

Quoting ckw (Reply 43):
Forget image quality - they are all "good enough"

Well, I'm not sure one can make that condition. Otherwise, there's never a reason to upgrade based on image quality, which I doubt is true.

Quoting ckw (Reply 43):
I know image quality from any of these cameras will be good enough to satisfy the client

My client is me.  
Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 46):
I wonder if you take a 70D photo and size down to 50D resolution, if the image quality would be same.

That's not good enough, though. To me, that means no reason to upgrade based on IQ.

Quoting angad84 (Reply 42):
Darren, one of my favourite times to shoot is late evening/twilight and I have a very hard time getting good results in that light with the 50D.

I love the 50D up to ISO 200 in broad daylight but it's not fun early in the morning or late in the evening when the light is at its best.

Really? I'm surprised - I regularly shoot with the 50D up to ISO2500 or so (sometimes higher).

Quoting dazbo5 (Reply 44):
I regularly use the 50D at ISO400, even up to ISO800 if needed and rarely have a problem providing the exposure is bang on or preferably marginally over exposed.

These were taken at ISO1250 and ISO1600, respectively:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Vik S
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Vik S



Certainly true that slight overexposure helps.....as does practice with noise reduction.
I'm watching Jeopardy. The category is worst Madonna songs. "This one from 1987 is terrible".
 
Silver1SWA
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RE: Canon 70D

Thu Jul 04, 2013 7:43 pm

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 47):
That's not good enough, though. To me, that means no reason to upgrade based on IQ.

First of all, then don't upgrade. If what you have is good enough for you, then don't worry about upgrading. Speaking generally here, but people like to knock manufacturers because they don't release something that causes them to want to upgrade. There's nothing that says ones equipment must be upgraded every one or two generations.

With that said though, what I'm wondering is if this perception of noisier images on newer cameras is simply a product of looking at larger images.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
Silver1SWA
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RE: Canon 70D

Thu Jul 04, 2013 7:56 pm

Also, what's interesting is when the 50D was released, initial thoughts on IQ compared to 40D were similar to comments we are seeing here.  
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.

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