PITSpeedbird
Topic Author
Posts: 58
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2007 11:25 pm

CSA PRG To JFK Horrific Experience

Fri Apr 06, 2007 12:13 am

Hi -

Thought I would elicit thoughts on one of the most memorable (in a bad) way flights I
have been on in a while.

I took a trip to MUC recently and flew PIT - ATL - MUC. The DL 767 service in economy on the way there
was excellent. IFE was second to none with personal seat back video at every seat. A full selection of movies including classics, trivia games, and excellent food made the flight excellent.
After spending a few days in MUC, we took a train to PRG.
I had booked PIT - ATL - MUC, and PRG - JFK as part of a DL codeshare - It was my misfortune that DL PRG service had not begun yet.

I figured a quick list of points about my flight would let you guys know what made it so bad:

1) I boarded the Airbus A300 (I believe) in PRG. I found my seat, a window. When I sat down I did a double take. The gentleman next to me had no arms and no legs! I was basically sitting next to a talking torso. I am in the medical field so this was less of a curiosity to me than it would be to some people. He asked me to remove his sunglasses which I did. He then continued to talk to me for the entire 9 hour flight to JFK. I just wanted to sleep. But that wasn't going to happen on this flight.

2) The CSA flight attendants did not help this passenger out in any way shape or form during the trip.

3) When beverage service came by, they simply opened his tray table for him and put his drink down, assuring him they would be back. I ordered a vodka - (which tasted like pain thinner by the way). The flight attendants never came back. This put me in an awkward position, and forced me to give this stranger his drink. I did not mind this - I am a reasonable and kind person so I obliged, but I could not help but think that if this was any other US or European carrier, the airline would have provided the gentleman some assistance.

4) When the movies came on or the gentleman needed to change station or volume I needed to help.

5) The food came by, and the gentleman ordered the chicken, as did I. The flight attendant looked at me and said literally, "You can help him, no?" This again put me in an awkward position. Was I going to say no?? Of course not. So before I ate. I fed this man his entire meal. Bread, main course, dessert. Imagine feeding a stranger bread. There were times when my fingers were in his mouth! Needless to say when I got up to go to the bathroom and saw several flight attendants milling around in a galley in the back of the plane I was not happy.

6) We were on the left side of the plane flying west. So the sun was heating the walls of the plane to unbearable temperatures. When I looked up to put on some air --- there wasn't any! This was the first flight I had ever been on when passengers could not control the air! So during the numerous times on the flight where the man asked me to shift him or move him up in his seat, I too became drenched in his sweat. I should say at this point that other passengers and flight crew just watched as I helped this complete stranger move around in his seat. Two things must have been obvious to everyone - 1) he was not a slim guy, 2) it was obvious we were not related - or even acquaintances.

7) The kicker was when the US customs declarations forms came by near the end of the flight. The flight attendant gave me two forms. I had to go through this man's passport to fill it out for him. I scribbled his signature at the bottom and put the form in his jacket. He thanked me.

I am thankful for a few things
1) This man never had to go to the bathroom during the flight.

2) I am glad he was sitting next to me, since I am the kind off person who will lend out a helping hand. I cant imagine if he was next to some of the other people on the plane.

3) When I needed to get up to use the bathroom and walk by him, I literally could walk by him without needing him to move - since he had no legs.

I was astonished that this was a DL codeshare flight. This was hardly DL level of service. Should I write a letter to DL to complain? I cant see what good writing to CSA would do. The airline seems beyond help.

At the end of the flight I got this man's bags down from the overhead for him. You're not going to believe this but he was a bass guitar player in a band. He had a bass guitar in the overhead. I had had enough. I did not want the CSA flight team to give me a wheelchair and have me take him through immigration at JFK. So I got his jacket on for him, got him his bags, and bid him farewell. He thanked me profusely for my help and commented that I deserved a free ticket. I got off the plane and was met with a cool rush of air from the terminal. I vowed never to fly CSA again.

Here's my question - should I write to DL ? should I complain to CSA. what are your thoughts on this trip and my experience?

Thanks,

PITSpeedbird
you leave. Arrive before
 
abrelosojos
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RE: CSA PRG To JFK Horrific Experience

Fri Apr 06, 2007 12:23 am

Quoting PITSpeedbird (Thread starter):
IFE was second to none with personal seat back video at every seat.

= Travel more in Asia and you will reconsider this  Smile

Quoting PITSpeedbird (Thread starter):
I boarded the Airbus A300 (I believe) in PRG.

= Its a 313. OK never had 300s.

I agree that OK crew is indifferent and has service mentality carried over from pre-cold war days. I would address it to DL/OK because OK crew actions would violate ADA compliance; at the same time, just also approach it as you did a good deed for someone and was thanked.

Cheers,
A.
Live, and let live.
 
roseflyer
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RE: CSA PRG To JFK Horrific Experience

Fri Apr 06, 2007 12:26 am

That's ridiculous. I would feel very awkward in that position. But then I wonder if it was CSA's fault? I would guess that someone in that position would need to have an aid travelling with them. It is not necessarily the flight attendant's responsibility to feed someone. Did they think that you knew the person and were there to help him? I wonder how that would have been handled on other airlines.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
dadoftyler
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RE: CSA PRG To JFK Horrific Experience

Fri Apr 06, 2007 12:27 am

PIT,

First off, thank you for helping a fellow human being. You didn't have to, and I'm sure it was uncomfortable, but it was very kind of you. And thank you for keeping your sense of humor--absolutely indespensible in situations such as this. I'm reminded of the Eddie Murphy line from "Trading Places" -- "once you have a man with no legs, baby, you never go back!"

Yes, by all means--if you purchased a ticket with a DL designator, the airline to complain to is DL. Realize, of course, you're not going to get diddley out of them, they'll likely spout some profitability gibberish as their half-hearted defense--but at least they can track complaints against CSA properly. But I'd be certain to draw the rather stark comparisons between your experience on mainline DL versus what you experienced on CSA.

Hope you had a good trip, VERY glad for the well-done (and really funny) report, and again, thank you for helping the "talking torso."
 
oly720man
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RE: CSA PRG To JFK Horrific Experience

Fri Apr 06, 2007 12:28 am

I'd probably pass various comments to CSA. I assume that the passenger would have advised the airline of his circumstances and they'd have some obligation to cater to his needs. Someone must have put him in his seat to start off with, presumably with some interaction with the crew.

You certainly went beyond what would be reasonably be expected of a paying passenger in helping another passenger. I have to say that the man was fortunate to have you near him instead of someone much less sympathetic or helpful, including the cabin crew, it would appear.
wheat and dairy can screw up your brain
 
PITSpeedbird
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RE: CSA PRG To JFK Horrific Experience

Fri Apr 06, 2007 12:32 am

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 1):
just also approach it as you did a good deed for someone and was thanked.

I agree - thank you - but this story has been on my mind for quite some time now - and I just needed to share!

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 1):

I agree that OK crew is indifferent and has service mentality carried over from pre-cold war days.

Once again - I agree - this was evident when the flight landed at JFK. One passenger got up while the plane was still on the runway and hurtling down the tarmac. The passenger removed his bags from the overhead. He was yelled at by a male flight attendant who ran up to the passenger, furiously ripped the bags from the passenger's hands, and threw it back into the bin! While he was doing this he was yelling at the (english speaking) passenger in CZECH! Needless to say, the passenger had no idea what the attendent was telling him, but I think he got the message!


Thanks for reading!

- PITSpeedbird
you leave. Arrive before
 
MEA-707
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RE: CSA PRG To JFK Horrific Experience

Fri Apr 06, 2007 12:33 am

While the crew seemed indifferent, I think you should have acted more assertive in the first place. As the man was talking to you, the crew no doubt assumed you were his aid/friend to assist him. With too talkative seatmates I usually manage after a while to express in a nice way verbally or non verbally "I like to sleep/watch the movie/read my book now."
I am sure the man wouldn't think you are rude if you expressed that to the f/a's after a while, or possibly told them discreetly when you went to the toilet.
nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
 
atnight
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RE: CSA PRG To JFK Horrific Experience

Fri Apr 06, 2007 12:40 am

Wow, I am amazed at your willingness to help this poor guy... Although you had a rough and very unusual experience, I commend you for your service.... you never know what happens in life, and people like you are rare this days... I wish there were more people like you around.... so the first thing, be glad you are a better citizen than most...

Quoting PITSpeedbird (Thread starter):
I was astonished that this was a DL codeshare flight. This was hardly DL level of service. Should I write a letter to DL to complain? I cant see what good writing to CSA would do. The airline seems beyond help.

I would write DL, although I almost can guarantee you that they'll just excuse themselves and say this was not a flight operated by them and that it is up to CSA.... Probably you'll have an apology from DL, but no more than that... And although the service should have been better than what you experienced (especially by the FAs), I think that the service provided on code-share or alliance partners (this time, Skyteam) has to be similar, but it does not have to be exactly the same.... It could be better or worse (not by a HUGE amount of course).... For example, on AF/KL, the service is usually better than most of the other Skyteam partners... Even within the US, the service on NW is lower than on CO.... So by you having food, drinks, safe aircraft, you will not really have an argument against CSA for their overall service... However, what they did to you, or what the FA didn't do for you, is unacceptable, which is your argument to seek some kind of compensation, but most likely, that will be up to CSA... At any rate, do write DL, maybe they'll send you some kind of compensation now that they are about to exit bankruptcy..

Quoting PITSpeedbird (Thread starter):
At the end of the flight I got this man's bags down from the overhead for him. You're not going to believe this but he was a bass guitar player in a band. He had a bass guitar in the overhead. I had had enough. I did not want the CSA flight team to give me a wheelchair and have me take him through immigration at JFK. So I got his jacket on for him, got him his bags, and bid him farewell. He thanked me profusely for my help and commented that I deserved a free ticket. I got off the plane and was met with a cool rush of air from the terminal. I vowed never to fly CSA again.

I'm just puzzled.... how can this man play a bass guitar? Or did the suffered an accident just prior to this trip? I really can't understand this, did you ask him how he is able to play the guitar?
Hope next flight you take will be a more enjoyable one...
B707 B727 B733/5/7/8/9 B742/4 B752/3 B763/4 B772 A310 A318/319/320 A332 A343 MD80 DC9/10 CRJ200 ERJ145 ERJ-170 Be1900 Da
 
PITSpeedbird
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RE: CSA PRG To JFK Horrific Experience

Fri Apr 06, 2007 12:40 am

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 6):
As the man was talking to you, the crew no doubt assumed you were his aid/friend to assist him.



Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 2):
Did they think that you knew the person and were there to help him?

Thanks for reading. The man was helped onto the plane by OK crew. I boarded afterward. He was part of the pre-board. They knew we did not know each other. This was evident at the first drink serving where the flight attendant said she would be back to help him.

I think OK was grossly negligent and probably in violation of ADA rules..
I am not looking for a free ticket out of this whole experience - I wanted to know what everyone thought. Plus I thought it made a good story  Big grin

PITSpeedbird
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PITSpeedbird
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RE: CSA PRG To JFK Horrific Experience

Fri Apr 06, 2007 12:46 am

Quoting Atnight (Reply 7):
how can this man play a bass guitar? Or did the suffered an accident just prior to this trip?

Haha - I never asked him about how he played the guitar -
I didn't believe it myself until I retrieved it from the bin for him!

I don't think he had an accident - This was a congenital condition.

Thanks for reading

PITSpeedbird
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abrelosojos
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RE: CSA PRG To JFK Horrific Experience

Fri Apr 06, 2007 12:47 am

Quoting PITSpeedbird (Reply 8):
I think OK was grossly negligent and probably in violation of ADA rules..

= As I mentioned in the first reply, this is in violation of ADA rules. If you really want to make a change and influence OK in the future, I would file a complaint with http://www.fta.dot.gov/civilrights/civil_rights_2360.html and CC both OK and DL a copy of the letter.

Cheers,
A.

PS: This is not the first time OK would have been in violation of breaking laws in North America. There was an incident on a flight to JFK when the crew caused smoke alarms to go off and told a severly asthmatic passenger that "no smoking rules don't govern us because we are not a U.S. carrier" and there has been several lawsuits/complaints in Canada as well. There was one very publicized case that I don't recall.

[Edited 2007-04-05 17:54:15]
Live, and let live.
 
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TK787
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RE: CSA PRG To JFK Horrific Experience

Fri Apr 06, 2007 12:48 am

It is unbelievable what you have done for your fellow passenger, and how indifferent the crew was to this situation. They should have given you half their pay for that flight. I am sure we are all asking ourselves: "What would I have done in the same situation?"

Quoting PITSpeedbird (Thread starter):
he DL 767 service in economy on the way there
was excellent. IFE was second to none with personal seat back video at every seat.

This is the first I hear about DL767 having PTVs, AVOD? I will be taking a DL767 in two weeks transatlantic that is why I am asking?
 
TIA
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RE: CSA PRG To JFK Horrific Experience

Fri Apr 06, 2007 12:57 am

Quoting PITSpeedbird (Reply 5):
Once again - I agree - this was evident when the flight landed at JFK. One passenger got up while the plane was still on the runway and hurtling down the tarmac. The passenger removed his bags from the overhead. He was yelled at by a male flight attendant who ran up to the passenger, furiously ripped the bags from the passenger's hands, and threw it back into the bin! While he was doing this he was yelling at the (english speaking) passenger in CZECH! Needless to say, the passenger had no idea what the attendent was telling him, but I think he got the message!

I actually don't see anything wrong at all with this. That passenger who got up deserved it, since he wasn't putting just himself at risk of getting injured but also the other people around him. If I had been the flight attendant, I would have yelled at him too. Last November I was in a IAD-LHR flight and this lady in front decided to stand up and get something from the overhead bin WHILE on a take-off roll. The FA had to run to her from the front of the plane and almost fall on her face to tell her to sit down. It's incredible how some people can be so oblivious to their surroundings.
 
Jano
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RE: CSA PRG To JFK Horrific Experience

Fri Apr 06, 2007 12:59 am

Per http://airconsumer.ost.dot.gov/publications/horizons.htm

Introduction

For years, access to the nation’s air travel system for persons with disabilities was an area of substantial dissatisfaction, with both passengers and the airline industry recognizing the need for major improvement. In 1986 Congress passed the Air Carrier Access Act, requiring the Department of Transportation (DOT) to develop new regulations which ensure that persons with disabilities will be treated without discrimination in a way consistent with the safe carriage of all passengers. These regulations were published in March 1990 and have been amended several times since then.

The DOT regulations, referred to here as the Air Carrier Access rules, represent a major stride forward in improving air travel for persons with disabilities.The rules clearly explain the responsibilities of the traveler, the carriers, the airport operators, and contractors, who collectively make up the system which moves over one million passengers per day.

The Air Carrier Access Act was amended effective April 5, 2000, to cover foreign air carriers. The rules that implement the ACAA will be amended to reflect that change.



....and

When Attendants Can Be Required

Carriers may require the following individuals to be accompanied by an attendant:

A person traveling on a stretcher or in an incubator (for flights where such service is offered);

A person who, because of a mental disability, is unable to comprehend or respond appropriately to safety instructions from carrier personnel;

A person with a mobility impairment so severe that the individual is unable to assist in his or her own evacuation from the aircraft;

A person who has both severe hearing and severe vision impairments which prevent him or her from receiving and acting on necessary instructions from carrier personnel when evacuating the aircraft during an emergency.


and

In-Cabin Service

Air carrier personnel shall assist a passenger with a disability to:

Move to and from seats as a part of the boarding and exiting process;

Open packages and identify food (assistance with actual eating is not required);

Use an on-board wheelchair when available to enable the passenger to move to and from the lavatory;

Move to and from the lavatory, in the case of a semi-ambulatory person (as long as this does not require lifting or carrying by the airline employee);

Load and retrieve carry-on items, including mobility aids and other assistive devices stowed on board the aircraft.

Carrier personnel are not required to provide assistance inside the lavatory or at the passenger’s seat with elimination functions. The carrier personnel are also not required to perform medical services for an individual with a disability.



I guess each of us can read up...
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OA260
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RE: CSA PRG To JFK Horrific Experience

Fri Apr 06, 2007 1:32 am

Quoting Jano (Reply 13):
Carrier personnel are not required to provide assistance inside the lavatory or at the passenger’s seat with elimination functions. The carrier personnel are also not required to perform medical services for an individual with a disability.



Quoting Jano (Reply 13):
I guess each of us can read up...

Sorry I dont quite understand so I will ask before I make any comment!!! Are you supporting the CSA crew and saying it is not their duty to assist?????
 
jmy007
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RE: CSA PRG To JFK Horrific Experience

Fri Apr 06, 2007 2:09 am

PITSpeedbird, I applaud you in your good samaritanship towards your fellow man.

That being said, I am scratching my head at this situation. It is hard to fathom, that some one with a physical handicap of that nature would not of made provisions for his care on such a flight. It is a bit presumptuous on this passengers part to assume and expect a neighboring passenger would be willing to help, let alone to give the kind of care that you did. It is also interesting that that OK would not of made provisions for this passenger as well. What if there had been an emergency, and the plane had to be evacuated, who is to help? Two, how did he arrive in his seat? Because reading this, he certainly did not walk. Things just are not adding up here, and I have a feeling there is more to this story.
I would write both OK and DL on this issue, as you flew on a Delta ticket, and had to deal with flying on OK metal.
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DiscoverCSG
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RE: CSA PRG To JFK Horrific Experience

Fri Apr 06, 2007 2:17 am

Quoting PITSpeedbird (Thread starter):
Airbus A300 (I believe)

As stated, it was one of OK's A310-300's.

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 1):
OK crew actions would violate ADA compliance

Does U.S. law apply to foreign carriers?

Does U.S. law apply to foreign carriers operating on U.S. routes? When in U.S. airspace? When on the groundin the U.S.?
 
LGAtoIND
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RE: CSA PRG To JFK Horrific Experience

Fri Apr 06, 2007 2:22 am

PIT,

It seems like you did an amazing job with helping this man out. I am not sure that I would feel comfortable with feeding someone and even putting my fingers in his mouth. That would not be sanitary, and I think should be done by the F/A's or a care provider. It's too bad the CSA F/As were not more helpful.

Also, I did not know that the DL 763s had PTVs on board. Last time I flew to Europe on a DL 763 (prob 5-6 yrs ago) there was nothing at all except for a few common TV screens.
 
bastew
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RE: CSA PRG To JFK Horrific Experience

Fri Apr 06, 2007 2:29 am

Wow, what an unfortunate situation for you.

Although each airline used to have their own policy regarding carriage of those physically/mentally impaired, there has been many anti-discrimination laws passed through the EU courts (which of course czech is a part of now).

I remember at BA in the past, anyone with a physical impairment had to be 'self sustainable' in flight. Ie, if the passenger was not capable of using the bathroom on their own, they could not be carried. Of course we would assist such a passenger TO the bathroom using the onboard wheelchair, but we were not to go into the bathroom with the passenger to assist with their business.

The area now seems a little more grey. On the BA website the statement now is:

"Companions providing assistance

If you are not capable of taking care of all your physical needs independently in-flight, we ask you to travel with a companion who can assist you.
We cannot assume obligation for providing on board assistance, which might contravene health, safety or hygiene requirements. "

What that statement no longer says, is that BA will not carry you if you are physically dependant and without a companion. I guess it is more giving guidance and stating the fact that they will not be looked after on board with regards to the areas mentioned, but it is not a point blank 'you cannot travel'.

What would happen if a physcially impaired passenger took BA to task on this issue (as perhaps your seatmate did with CSA) and insisted on travelling independently I think there is little BA (or CSA) could do, legally speaking. As crew however, and to conform with health and hygiene standards, we still wouldn't be able to assist a passenger with no arms/legs etc to the toilet or indeed feed them.
 
Jano
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RE: CSA PRG To JFK Horrific Experience

Fri Apr 06, 2007 2:33 am

Quoting BAStew (Reply 17):
What would happen if a physcially impaired passenger took BA to task on this issue (as perhaps your seatmate did with CSA) and insisted on travelling independently I think there is little BA (or CSA) could do, legally speaking. As crew however, and to conform with health and hygiene standards, we still wouldn't be able to assist a passenger with no arms/legs etc to the toilet or indeed feed them.

I think Air Carrier Access Act is quite similar and applies to both US carriers and foreign carries flying to the USA. Quoting again from http://airconsumer.ost.dot.gov/publications/horizons.htm

In-Cabin Service

Air carrier personnel shall assist a passenger with a disability to:
- Move to and from seats as a part of the boarding and exiting process;
- Open packages and identify food (assistance with actual eating is not required);
- Use an on-board wheelchair when available to enable the passenger to move to and from the lavatory;
- Move to and from the lavatory, in the case of a semi-ambulatory person (as long as this does not require lifting or carrying by the airline employee);
- Load and retrieve carry-on items, including mobility aids and other assistive devices stowed on board the aircraft.

Carrier personnel are not required to provide assistance inside the lavatory or at the passenger’s seat with elimination functions. The carrier personnel are also not required to perform medical services for an individual with a disability.
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flyboy_se
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RE: CSA PRG To JFK Horrific Experience

Fri Apr 06, 2007 2:40 am

This passenger should have had some sort of aid with him if he cannot do the basics things himself.It is not crew or fellow passengers duty at all.Well done that you helped this man, but you cannot blame the airline that he didnt bring any help with him.What if he had to do number 2 in the toilet. No matter what airline, but i dont think its crews duites to wipe his ass.
I prefer to be crazy and happy rather than normal and bitter
 
PITSpeedbird
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RE: CSA PRG To JFK Horrific Experience

Fri Apr 06, 2007 3:17 am

Quoting Jmy007 (Reply 14):
Two, how did he arrive in his seat?

He was escorted on to the plane by OK personnel in a wheelchair
you leave. Arrive before
 
abrelosojos
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RE: CSA PRG To JFK Horrific Experience

Fri Apr 06, 2007 3:17 am

Quoting Flyboy_se (Reply 20):
This passenger should have had some sort of aid with him if he cannot do the basics things himself.It is not crew or fellow passengers duty at all.Well done that you helped this man, but you cannot blame the airline that he didnt bring any help with him.What if he had to do number 2 in the toilet. No matter what airline, but i dont think its crews duites to wipe his ass.

= Carrier should have not allowed the pax to board without assistance in the first instance. As outlined in the ADA/DOT guidelines, the duties of the crew were clearly outlines including opening his food, etc. This was not performed. Moreover, check-in crew should have been more aware of the rules and regs.

Cheers,
A.
Live, and let live.
 
iairallie
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RE: CSA PRG To JFK Horrific Experience

Fri Apr 06, 2007 3:41 am

Quoting PITSpeedbird (Thread starter):
2) The CSA flight attendants did not help this passenger out in any way shape or form during the trip.

Not to sound callous but passengers who need assistance are required to travel with an assistant. This man should never have been allowed on that plane alone. Flight attendants are not required to assist beyond opening packaging, transportation via the onboard wheelchair to the lavatory (but not assistance within), and evacuation. There are liablity reasons for this as well as practical ones. If that same man went into a restaurant alone would you expect the waitstaff to spoonfeed him? I am sorry that gentleman put you in this predicament. Kudos for you for your excellent treatment of this gentleman.
Enough about flying lets talk about me!
 
PITSpeedbird
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RE: CSA PRG To JFK Horrific Experience

Fri Apr 06, 2007 3:43 am

Quoting Iairallie (Reply 22):
Enough about flying lets talk about me!

No offense bud - but I think your signature says it all!!

- regards!

PITSpeedbird
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thediplomat
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RE: CSA PRG To JFK Horrific Experience

Fri Apr 06, 2007 4:08 am

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 1):
agree that OK crew is indifferent and has service mentality carried over from pre-cold war days

As a all too frequent OK shorthaul user, the OK crew are usually excellent, and actually care about their customers, similar to LOT. Far more warm a service to the likes of BA or LH... PRG is also an excellent transfer airport.

Even Aeroflot these days are getting their service act together.
 
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OA260
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RE: CSA PRG To JFK Horrific Experience

Fri Apr 06, 2007 4:22 am

When the crew realised the situation then they should have checked on the passenger every few hours to make sure he was ok . The rules about what a crew is supposed to do and not supposed to do is irrelavent if they have accepted the passenger at the check in and gate if it is against their policy not to carry such passengers without an aid.

When the situation came to light then the crew should have made allowances and just dealt with it the best way they could.

Lucky that he had a decent guy sitting next to him and I totally commend you for doing what I would have done which is try to make the guys flight as comfortable as possible. The only thing I would have done also is go upto the crew and say that this guy needed special attention and ask that they visit him in his seat every few hours. I have to say though Im suprised at CSA as they normally are very good. Maybe they just didnt understand.

I think the main point is that you helped out and should be proud of it. Theres far too many selfish people in this world and what they dont realise is that one day they could be in a air crash or car crash that could make them need others!!!!
 
Aleksandar
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RE: CSA PRG To JFK Horrific Experience

Fri Apr 06, 2007 4:35 am

Hi Pit! It is really a horrific experience. There is something else that bothers me. I've seen rules about obligations of the carrier and personnel but why did they accept such passenger flying all by himself? There are rules about pregnant woment, so I'm quite sure there must be some rules about it, too. Also, I do have an example. One of my distant relatives had to travel from Belgrade to Munich on Lufthansa and they let him board the plane after long negotiations. He was ill, had problems with walking but he was far more functional than the gentleman you have mentioned. It is just that check-in clerk realized that he had obvious health problems and that it might be risky to let him fly on his own. Also, this is a flight far shorter than PRG-JFK flight is.
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deaphen
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RE: CSA PRG To JFK Horrific Experience

Fri Apr 06, 2007 5:55 am

Quoting PITSpeedbird (Reply 28):
performing in a band as a bass player

Cudos to you for helping the man... but one question pertaining to the above quote.. HOW IN THE WORLD?????

nitin
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PITSpeedbird
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RE: CSA PRG To JFK Horrific Experience

Fri Apr 06, 2007 5:59 am

Quoting Deaphen (Reply 27):
HOW IN THE WORLD?????

Haha - I think it must have been with his feet! (He had small stump of feet coming from his torso)

I asked him how he chose to live in Prague. He said that one day he was tired of living in Tennessee, so
he put a map on the floor and decided to go wherever his toes landed when he closed his eyes!

Thanks -

PITSpeedbird
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nzrich
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RE: CSA PRG To JFK Horrific Experience

Fri Apr 06, 2007 6:22 am

Well according to the CSA website it says as follows

SPECIAL-CONDITION PASSENGERS
Passengers who fall into the below categories of special conditions will be transported under the terms and conditions stipulated by the carrier.

Ill and disabled passengers
Carriage of such passengers must be agreed upon and confirmed by the carrier before the actual carriage. In certain cases the carrier may require medical approval on a special form. The form may be obtained from CSA sales offices.

If he did all that in advance then it is CSA that is resonsible for this passenger

Unfortunately we at Air NZ have been put in the horrible position of other airlines agreeing to transport a passenger dumping them on us without the required documentation .. Then were left to deal with the passenger which puts us in a horrible position ..

As for the flight attendant responsibilities yes they should not have to feed move the guy and all as he should of had someone travelling with him.. But as he was not one would of thought one of them would of given him at least some help.. I have cut passengers food for them and all its called looking after those less fortunate .. Yes legally they did not have to and they the crew officially did no wrong .. But one would of thought they would of given this man a bit more help than they did..
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Evan767
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RE: CSA PRG To JFK Horrific Experience

Fri Apr 06, 2007 9:18 am

Quoting TK787 (Reply 11):
This is the first I hear about DL767 having PTVs, AVOD? I will be taking a DL767 in two weeks transatlantic that is why I am asking?

The passenger flew on a 767-400 which has been reconfigured with PTVs. Where are you flying to?
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777law
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RE: CSA PRG To JFK Horrific Experience

Fri Apr 06, 2007 9:39 am

Quoting PITSpeedbird (Thread starter):
6) We were on the left side of the plane flying west. So the sun was heating the walls of the plane to unbearable temperatures. When I looked up to put on some air --- there wasn't any! This was the first flight I had ever been on when passengers could not control the air! So during the numerous times on the flight where the man asked me to shift him or move him up in his seat, I too became drenched in his sweat. I should say at this point that other passengers and flight crew just watched as I helped this complete stranger move around in his seat. Two things must have been obvious to everyone - 1) he was not a slim guy, 2) it was obvious we were not related - or even acquaintances.

KE's 777's and 747's are the same way -- no individual aircon / fans -- just the main aircon / heating system. I often find the flights get unbearably hot if you're wearing anything long-sleaved. It's ridiculous -- just one more reason my days flying KE are done.
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Viscount724
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RE: CSA PRG To JFK Horrific Experience

Fri Apr 06, 2007 9:47 am

I would have gone to the galley and asked to speak to the purser or service director or whatever OK calls that position and asked him/her why this passenger was permitted to travel without an assistant, and suggested that you didn't think it was your responsibility to take care of his needs. I would have been interested in the response.

Quoting PITSpeedbird (Thread starter):
This was the first flight I had ever been on when passengers could not control the air!

Many widebodies no longer have individual air vents at each seat. I don't think I've been on a 777 yet, for example, that has air vents. It's controlled centrally. Even going back many years I recall some DC-10s and other earlier widebodies that lacked air vents.

Quoting TheDiplomat (Reply 24):
PRG is also an excellent transfer airport.

I agree. I think PRG is now one of the best airports in Europe. Modern, spacious, rarely any long lines at passport and security checks, big windows overlooking the ramp. Very impressive.
 
aviateur
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RE: CSA PRG To JFK Horrific Experience

Fri Apr 06, 2007 9:51 am

Okay, so how did he play the damn bass guitar?
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PITSpeedbird
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RE: CSA PRG To JFK Horrific Experience

Fri Apr 06, 2007 10:01 am

Quoting Aviateur (Reply 34):
Okay, so how did he play the damn bass guitar?

see response 29

PITSpeedbird
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CV880
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RE: CSA PRG To JFK Horrific Experience

Fri Apr 06, 2007 10:19 am

Should write to both Delta & CSA.....as for the ptv's, the 767-300's are getting them during this year and probably next.
 
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TK787
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RE: CSA PRG To JFK Horrific Experience

Fri Apr 06, 2007 10:20 am

Quoting Evan767 (Reply 31):
The passenger flew on a 767-400 which has been reconfigured with PTVs. Where are you flying to?

That makes sense, thanks. As usual I get the old school 763ER to IST.
 
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United_fan
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RE: CSA PRG To JFK Horrific Experience

Fri Apr 06, 2007 10:45 am

Okay,so how did he get in the seat? And,yes,he should have had some type of aid with him,IMHO.
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TPAnx
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RE: CSA PRG To JFK Horrific Experience

Fri Apr 06, 2007 10:55 am

Quite a story...I see you're in training to become a surgeon. From what I see in your actions on your flight home, you're going to have a good relationship with your patients. Welcome to my RU list. Well done!
TPAnx
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steeler83
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RE: CSA PRG To JFK Horrific Experience

Fri Apr 06, 2007 12:10 pm

Quoting Nzrich (Reply 30):
Ill and disabled passengers

A person having no arms or legs? That seems "disabled" to me... Good job for helping him out, as others have already stated. If that was me as an FA on that flight, I would've been checking up on him every so often to see if he needed anything...
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iairallie
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RE: CSA PRG To JFK Horrific Experience

Fri Apr 06, 2007 12:36 pm

How do you know you are on a date with a pilot?

Halfway through dinner he says enough about flying lets talk about me.
Enough about flying lets talk about me!
 
Super Em
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RE: CSA PRG To JFK Horrific Experience

Fri Apr 06, 2007 1:14 pm

Unfortunately these kinds of stories are too common. CSA is to blame but the family member who put that gentlemen on the flight by himself should be held responsible. Many times people will put their loved ones on a flight by themselves and expect the airline to provide some sort of home attendant for the flight. It is true that while purchasing a ticket, a customer may request a wheelchair attendant for the passenger, but that is only for maneuvering in and around the airport. It is sad to see how much the old and sick suffer when they have to fly by themselves.
 
jafa39
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RE: CSA PRG To JFK Horrific Experience

Fri Apr 06, 2007 6:37 pm

Quoting PITSpeedbird (Thread starter):
You're not going to believe this but he was a bass guitar player in a band. He had a bass guitar in the overhead.

W.....T....F?????

Unless, as is the case with CastleIsland, he plays with his dick  Wink
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TANS
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RE: CSA PRG To JFK Horrific Experience

Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:48 am

I have to say I am quite surprised by the behaviour of CSA’s flight attendants. They are usually extremely nice and helpful, on both European and North American flights (and I have taken quite a few). To be honest, I have no idea how you can react to this situation and can’t imagine how another carrier would handle it…

Nonetheless, if you consider that an EasyJet crew refused to fly a lady with two small children because, during take-off, one of them would be held by a ‘stranger’ then you can’t really blame CSA for not feeding the poor man. I guess it really falls down to whether he should have been taken aboard alone in the first place.

Anyway, I join everyone else who congratulated you before and hope you’ll have a nicer experience with CSA, if you decide to try them out once more (and ideally not on one of the dated long-haul Airbuses).
 
mirrodie
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RE: CSA PRG To JFK Horrific Experience

Sun Apr 08, 2007 7:10 pm

Quoting PITSpeedbird (Reply 8):
think OK was grossly negligent and probably in violation of ADA rules..
I am not looking for a free ticket out of this whole experience - I wanted to know what everyone thought. Plus I thought it made a good story

well, as some have said, you can throw the ADA out of the window.


However, this seems to be the standard to go by:

Quoting Jano (Reply 19):
n-Cabin Service

Air carrier personnel shall assist a passenger with a disability to:
- Move to and from seats as a part of the boarding and exiting process;
- Open packages and identify food (assistance with actual eating is not required);
- Use an on-board wheelchair when available to enable the passenger to move to and from the lavatory;
- Move to and from the lavatory, in the case of a semi-ambulatory person (as long as this does not require lifting or carrying by the airline employee);
- Load and retrieve carry-on items, including mobility aids and other assistive devices stowed on board the aircraft.

Carrier personnel are not required to provide assistance inside the lavatory or at the passenger’s seat with elimination functions. The carrier personnel are also not required to perform medical services for an individual with a disability.

THat said, thatnks for sharing an interesting story. I flew to PRG on BA from LHR but was considering CSA in the future. Your story doesn't discourage me but it is interesting.
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EWRCabincrew
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RE: CSA PRG To JFK Horrific Experience

Mon Apr 09, 2007 11:17 am

Thank you, PITspeedbird, for posting your experience on your flights. I would like to add a crew members side to this.

I am required to assist any and all passengers, regardless of condition. I do this because the law says I have to, but more importantly, I do this because it is the right thing to do. As a flight attendant, as a service industry person and even above that, as a human being (and thank you for assisting the gentleman).

I also follow what the law says ( http://airconsumer.ost.dot.gov/publications/horizons.htm ).

CSA may not fall under US laws and regulations concerning how crew assist with passengers, but that should not excuse any assistance.

While I will go to about any length to see that a person is helped, assisted or aided, the person travelling should have had an assistant. His family (whomever that is/was) should have been there for him. Ignorance is not a handicap, nor is lack of common sense (although sometimes it should be). Even if he were in first class, we are there for everyone. Not just one person. If that were the case, he should have travelled alone on a chartered flight.

Case in point, a few years ago we had an elderly gentleman travelling from LGW-EWR-SFO. About half way across the Atlantic, he went to the restroom, only to find himself 'lost' on the plane. I happened to help him back to his seat (I was also the ISM (purser) for the LGW-EWR flight) and sensed that he did not have all his faculties. I asked to see his ticket to see if he had requested assistance (non was requested on my pre-lim report). I saw he had taken Maersk Air from CPH to LGW and was to continue on to SFO from EWR. He spoke perfect English until half way through a sentence, it switched to Danish. He was a bit frustrated that I didn't speak Danish, but sign and body language got me through. About an hour before we landed, he again went to the bathroom, this time at his seat. Thankfully, it was only urine.

Upon arrival, I made sure he cleared customs and got his bags and I also made sure he got through security. After getting through to the gate, I asked him for his wife's number in CPH and we went to Customer Service and we got to call home. His wife answered, he indeed has Alzheimer's and wanted to go to SFO to visit an old friend. His wife seemed ok with that, but I expressed heavily that he should not have travelled alone, It was unfair to him.

I took him to his gate to talk to the crew going to SFO, I knew half of the crew and asked them to look after him. In helping him, I missed my flight home to PHX. I ended up staying the nigiht in EWR, my expense (because he was left to travel alone).

A week later, I ran into the same crew who took him to SFO. They told me he again had urinated in his seat and when he got to SFO, the gentleman who was to meet him, never showed. The crew stayed 2 hours with him until they ultimately had to hand him over to the SFO police. He bought a ticket to SFO to meet someone who did live there.

I do not know what happpened to him, but I can only imagine he flew back to CPH. It really pissed me off that he was sent alone that far without assistance.

Moral: While I can (and other crews/agents/airline personnel) do so much (to the letter of the law and beyond), the ultimate burden (for lack of a better word) falls on the traveller. Ignorance and simply not knowing doesn't cut it.

I can assist, but I am not responsible.
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MCOflyer
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RE: CSA PRG To JFK Horrific Experience

Mon Apr 09, 2007 11:30 am

Good TR and kudos for helping that pax. I myself would have done the same thing. EWRCabincrew does point out some good rules for people traveling alone like that.

MCOflyer
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EWRCabincrew
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RE: CSA PRG To JFK Horrific Experience

Mon Apr 09, 2007 12:39 pm

I also forgot to thank you, PITspeedbird, for assisting that gentleman. You did go above and beyond what you should have done. Again, thank you.

EWRCC
You can't cure stupid
 
semsem
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RE: CSA PRG To JFK Horrific Experience

Fri Apr 13, 2007 5:42 am

You are a good Samaritan. I feel a bit guilty because I found it funny. I am surprised he did not have artificial legs / hands. As to OK, my sister flew the same route and said it was bad. The A310 is uncomfortable and pretty old.

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