Hi -

Thought I would elicit thoughts on one of the most memorable (in a bad) way flights I
have been on in a while.

I took a trip to MUC recently and flew PIT - ATL - MUC. The DL 767 service in economy on the way there
was excellent. IFE was second to none with personal seat back video at every seat. A full selection of movies including classics, trivia games, and excellent food made the flight excellent.
After spending a few days in MUC, we took a train to PRG.
I had booked PIT - ATL - MUC, and PRG - JFK as part of a DL codeshare - It was my misfortune that DL PRG service had not begun yet.

I figured a quick list of points about my flight would let you guys know what made it so bad:

1) I boarded the Airbus A300 (I believe) in PRG. I found my seat, a window. When I sat down I did a double take. The gentleman next to me had no arms and no legs! I was basically sitting next to a talking torso. I am in the medical field so this was less of a curiosity to me than it would be to some people. He asked me to remove his sunglasses which I did. He then continued to talk to me for the entire 9 hour flight to JFK. I just wanted to sleep. But that wasn't going to happen on this flight.

2) The CSA flight attendants did not help this passenger out in any way shape or form during the trip.

3) When beverage service came by, they simply opened his tray table for him and put his drink down, assuring him they would be back. I ordered a vodka - (which tasted like pain thinner by the way). The flight attendants never came back. This put me in an awkward position, and forced me to give this stranger his drink. I did not mind this - I am a reasonable and kind person so I obliged, but I could not help but think that if this was any other US or European carrier, the airline would have provided the gentleman some assistance.

4) When the movies came on or the gentleman needed to change station or volume I needed to help.

5) The food came by, and the gentleman ordered the chicken, as did I. The flight attendant looked at me and said literally, "You can help him, no?" This again put me in an awkward position. Was I going to say no?? Of course not. So before I ate. I fed this man his entire meal. Bread, main course, dessert. Imagine feeding a stranger bread. There were times when my fingers were in his mouth! Needless to say when I got up to go to the bathroom and saw several flight attendants milling around in a galley in the back of the plane I was not happy.

6) We were on the left side of the plane flying west. So the sun was heating the walls of the plane to unbearable temperatures. When I looked up to put on some air --- there wasn't any! This was the first flight I had ever been on when passengers could not control the air! So during the numerous times on the flight where the man asked me to shift him or move him up in his seat, I too became drenched in his sweat. I should say at this point that other passengers and flight crew just watched as I helped this complete stranger move around in his seat. Two things must have been obvious to everyone - 1) he was not a slim guy, 2) it was obvious we were not related - or even acquaintances.

7) The kicker was when the US customs declarations forms came by near the end of the flight. The flight attendant gave me two forms. I had to go through this man's passport to fill it out for him. I scribbled his signature at the bottom and put the form in his jacket. He thanked me.

I am thankful for a few things
1) This man never had to go to the bathroom during the flight.

2) I am glad he was sitting next to me, since I am the kind off person who will lend out a helping hand. I cant imagine if he was next to some of the other people on the plane.

3) When I needed to get up to use the bathroom and walk by him, I literally could walk by him without needing him to move - since he had no legs.

I was astonished that this was a DL codeshare flight. This was hardly DL level of service. Should I write a letter to DL to complain? I cant see what good writing to CSA would do. The airline seems beyond help.

At the end of the flight I got this man's bags down from the overhead for him. You're not going to believe this but he was a bass guitar player in a band. He had a bass guitar in the overhead. I had had enough. I did not want the CSA flight team to give me a wheelchair and have me take him through immigration at JFK. So I got his jacket on for him, got him his bags, and bid him farewell. He thanked me profusely for my help and commented that I deserved a free ticket. I got off the plane and was met with a cool rush of air from the terminal. I vowed never to fly CSA again.

Here's my question - should I write to DL ? should I complain to CSA. what are your thoughts on this trip and my experience?

Thanks,

PITSpeedbird

Quoting PITSpeedbird (Thread starter): IFE was second to none with personal seat back video at every seat.

= Travel more in Asia and you will reconsider this  

Quoting PITSpeedbird (Thread starter): I boarded the Airbus A300 (I believe) in PRG.

= Its a 313. OK never had 300s.

I agree that OK crew is indifferent and has service mentality carried over from pre-cold war days. I would address it to DL/OK because OK crew actions would violate ADA compliance; at the same time, just also approach it as you did a good deed for someone and was thanked.

Cheers,
A.

That's ridiculous. I would feel very awkward in that position. But then I wonder if it was CSA's fault? I would guess that someone in that position would need to have an aid travelling with them. It is not necessarily the flight attendant's responsibility to feed someone. Did they think that you knew the person and were there to help him? I wonder how that would have been handled on other airlines.

PIT,

First off, thank you for helping a fellow human being. You didn't have to, and I'm sure it was uncomfortable, but it was very kind of you. And thank you for keeping your sense of humor--absolutely indespensible in situations such as this. I'm reminded of the Eddie Murphy line from "Trading Places" -- "once you have a man with no legs, baby, you never go back!"

Yes, by all means--if you purchased a ticket with a DL designator, the airline to complain to is DL. Realize, of course, you're not going to get diddley out of them, they'll likely spout some profitability gibberish as their half-hearted defense--but at least they can track complaints against CSA properly. But I'd be certain to draw the rather stark comparisons between your experience on mainline DL versus what you experienced on CSA.

Hope you had a good trip, VERY glad for the well-done (and really funny) report, and again, thank you for helping the "talking torso."

I'd probably pass various comments to CSA. I assume that the passenger would have advised the airline of his circumstances and they'd have some obligation to cater to his needs. Someone must have put him in his seat to start off with, presumably with some interaction with the crew.

You certainly went beyond what would be reasonably be expected of a paying passenger in helping another passenger. I have to say that the man was fortunate to have you near him instead of someone much less sympathetic or helpful, including the cabin crew, it would appear.

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 1): just also approach it as you did a good deed for someone and was thanked.

I agree - thank you - but this story has been on my mind for quite some time now - and I just needed to share!

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 1): I agree that OK crew is indifferent and has service mentality carried over from pre-cold war days.

Once again - I agree - this was evident when the flight landed at JFK. One passenger got up while the plane was still on the runway and hurtling down the tarmac. The passenger removed his bags from the overhead. He was yelled at by a male flight attendant who ran up to the passenger, furiously ripped the bags from the passenger's hands, and threw it back into the bin! While he was doing this he was yelling at the (english speaking) passenger in CZECH! Needless to say, the passenger had no idea what the attendent was telling him, but I think he got the message!


Thanks for reading!

- PITSpeedbird

While the crew seemed indifferent, I think you should have acted more assertive in the first place. As the man was talking to you, the crew no doubt assumed you were his aid/friend to assist him. With too talkative seatmates I usually manage after a while to express in a nice way verbally or non verbally "I like to sleep/watch the movie/read my book now."
I am sure the man wouldn't think you are rude if you expressed that to the f/a's after a while, or possibly told them discreetly when you went to the toilet.

Wow, I am amazed at your willingness to help this poor guy... Although you had a rough and very unusual experience, I commend you for your service.... you never know what happens in life, and people like you are rare this days... I wish there were more people like you around.... so the first thing, be glad you are a better citizen than most...

Quoting PITSpeedbird (Thread starter): I was astonished that this was a DL codeshare flight. This was hardly DL level of service. Should I write a letter to DL to complain? I cant see what good writing to CSA would do. The airline seems beyond help.

I would write DL, although I almost can guarantee you that they'll just excuse themselves and say this was not a flight operated by them and that it is up to CSA.... Probably you'll have an apology from DL, but no more than that... And although the service should have been better than what you experienced (especially by the FAs), I think that the service provided on code-share or alliance partners (this time, Skyteam) has to be similar, but it does not have to be exactly the same.... It could be better or worse (not by a HUGE amount of course).... For example, on AF/KL, the service is usually better than most of the other Skyteam partners... Even within the US, the service on NW is lower than on CO.... So by you having food, drinks, safe aircraft, you will not really have an argument against CSA for their overall service... However, what they did to you, or what the FA didn't do for you, is unacceptable, which is your argument to seek some kind of compensation, but most likely, that will be up to CSA... At any rate, do write DL, maybe they'll send you some kind of compensation now that they are about to exit bankruptcy..

Quoting PITSpeedbird (Thread starter): At the end of the flight I got this man's bags down from the overhead for him. You're not going to believe this but he was a bass guitar player in a band. He had a bass guitar in the overhead. I had had enough. I did not want the CSA flight team to give me a wheelchair and have me take him through immigration at JFK. So I got his jacket on for him, got him his bags, and bid him farewell. He thanked me profusely for my help and commented that I deserved a free ticket. I got off the plane and was met with a cool rush of air from the terminal. I vowed never to fly CSA again.

I'm just puzzled.... how can this man play a bass guitar? Or did the suffered an accident just prior to this trip? I really can't understand this, did you ask him how he is able to play the guitar?
Hope next flight you take will be a more enjoyable one...

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 6): As the man was talking to you, the crew no doubt assumed you were his aid/friend to assist him.

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 2): Did they think that you knew the person and were there to help him?

Thanks for reading. The man was helped onto the plane by OK crew. I boarded afterward. He was part of the pre-board. They knew we did not know each other. This was evident at the first drink serving where the flight attendant said she would be back to help him.

I think OK was grossly negligent and probably in violation of ADA rules..
I am not looking for a free ticket out of this whole experience - I wanted to know what everyone thought. Plus I thought it made a good story  

PITSpeedbird

Quoting Atnight (Reply 7): how can this man play a bass guitar? Or did the suffered an accident just prior to this trip?

Haha - I never asked him about how he played the guitar -
I didn't believe it myself until I retrieved it from the bin for him!

I don't think he had an accident - This was a congenital condition.

Thanks for reading

PITSpeedbird

Quoting PITSpeedbird (Reply 8): I think OK was grossly negligent and probably in violation of ADA rules..

= As I mentioned in the first reply, this is in violation of ADA rules. If you really want to make a change and influence OK in the future, I would file a complaint with http://www.fta.dot.gov/civilrights/civil_rights_2360.html and CC both OK and DL a copy of the letter.

Cheers,
A.

PS: This is not the first time OK would have been in violation of breaking laws in North America. There was an incident on a flight to JFK when the crew caused smoke alarms to go off and told a severly asthmatic passenger that "no smoking rules don't govern us because we are not a U.S. carrier" and there has been several lawsuits/complaints in Canada as well. There was one very publicized case that I don't recall.

[Edited 2007-04-05 17:54:15]

It is unbelievable what you have done for your fellow passenger, and how indifferent the crew was to this situation. They should have given you half their pay for that flight. I am sure we are all asking ourselves: "What would I have done in the same situation?"

Quoting PITSpeedbird (Thread starter): he DL 767 service in economy on the way there was excellent. IFE was second to none with personal seat back video at every seat.

This is the first I hear about DL767 having PTVs, AVOD? I will be taking a DL767 in two weeks transatlantic that is why I am asking?

Quoting PITSpeedbird (Reply 5): Once again - I agree - this was evident when the flight landed at JFK. One passenger got up while the plane was still on the runway and hurtling down the tarmac. The passenger removed his bags from the overhead. He was yelled at by a male flight attendant who ran up to the passenger, furiously ripped the bags from the passenger's hands, and threw it back into the bin! While he was doing this he was yelling at the (english speaking) passenger in CZECH! Needless to say, the passenger had no idea what the attendent was telling him, but I think he got the message!

I actually don't see anything wrong at all with this. That passenger who got up deserved it, since he wasn't putting just himself at risk of getting injured but also the other people around him. If I had been the flight attendant, I would have yelled at him too. Last November I was in a IAD-LHR flight and this lady in front decided to stand up and get something from the overhead bin WHILE on a take-off roll. The FA had to run to her from the front of the plane and almost fall on her face to tell her to sit down. It's incredible how some people can be so oblivious to their surroundings.

Per http://airconsumer.ost.dot.gov/publications/horizons.htm

Introduction

For years, access to the nation’s air travel system for persons with disabilities was an area of substantial dissatisfaction, with both passengers and the airline industry recognizing the need for major improvement. In 1986 Congress passed the Air Carrier Access Act, requiring the Department of Transportation (DOT) to develop new regulations which ensure that persons with disabilities will be treated without discrimination in a way consistent with the safe carriage of all passengers. These regulations were published in March 1990 and have been amended several times since then.

The DOT regulations, referred to here as the Air Carrier Access rules, represent a major stride forward in improving air travel for persons with disabilities.The rules clearly explain the responsibilities of the traveler, the carriers, the airport operators, and contractors, who collectively make up the system which moves over one million passengers per day.

The Air Carrier Access Act was amended effective April 5, 2000, to cover foreign air carriers. The rules that implement the ACAA will be amended to reflect that change.


....and

When Attendants Can Be Required

Carriers may require the following individuals to be accompanied by an attendant:

A person traveling on a stretcher or in an incubator (for flights where such service is offered);

A person who, because of a mental disability, is unable to comprehend or respond appropriately to safety instructions from carrier personnel;

A person with a mobility impairment so severe that the individual is unable to assist in his or her own evacuation from the aircraft;

A person who has both severe hearing and severe vision impairments which prevent him or her from receiving and acting on necessary instructions from carrier personnel when evacuating the aircraft during an emergency.

and

In-Cabin Service

Air carrier personnel shall assist a passenger with a disability to:

Move to and from seats as a part of the boarding and exiting process;

Open packages and identify food (assistance with actual eating is not required);

Use an on-board wheelchair when available to enable the passenger to move to and from the lavatory;

Move to and from the lavatory, in the case of a semi-ambulatory person (as long as this does not require lifting or carrying by the airline employee);

Load and retrieve carry-on items, including mobility aids and other assistive devices stowed on board the aircraft.

Carrier personnel are not required to provide assistance inside the lavatory or at the passenger’s seat with elimination functions. The carrier personnel are also not required to perform medical services for an individual with a disability.


I guess each of us can read up...

Quoting Jano (Reply 13): Carrier personnel are not required to provide assistance inside the lavatory or at the passenger’s seat with elimination functions. The carrier personnel are also not required to perform medical services for an individual with a disability.

Quoting Jano (Reply 13): I guess each of us can read up...

Sorry I dont quite understand so I will ask before I make any comment!!! Are you supporting the CSA crew and saying it is not their duty to assist?????

PITSpeedbird, I applaud you in your good samaritanship towards your fellow man.

That being said, I am scratching my head at this situation. It is hard to fathom, that some one with a physical handicap of that nature would not of made provisions for his care on such a flight. It is a bit presumptuous on this passengers part to assume and expect a neighboring passenger would be willing to help, let alone to give the kind of care that you did. It is also interesting that that OK would not of made provisions for this passenger as well. What if there had been an emergency, and the plane had to be evacuated, who is to help? Two, how did he arrive in his seat? Because reading this, he certainly did not walk. Things just are not adding up here, and I have a feeling there is more to this story.
I would write both OK and DL on this issue, as you flew on a Delta ticket, and had to deal with flying on OK metal.

Quoting PITSpeedbird (Thread starter): Airbus A300 (I believe)

As stated, it was one of OK's A310-300's.

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 1): OK crew actions would violate ADA compliance

Does U.S. law apply to foreign carriers?

Does U.S. law apply to foreign carriers operating on U.S. routes? When in U.S. airspace? When on the groundin the U.S.?

PIT,

It seems like you did an amazing job with helping this man out. I am not sure that I would feel comfortable with feeding someone and even putting my fingers in his mouth. That would not be sanitary, and I think should be done by the F/A's or a care provider. It's too bad the CSA F/As were not more helpful.

Also, I did not know that the DL 763s had PTVs on board. Last time I flew to Europe on a DL 763 (prob 5-6 yrs ago) there was nothing at all except for a few common TV screens.

Wow, what an unfortunate situation for you.

Although each airline used to have their own policy regarding carriage of those physically/mentally impaired, there has been many anti-discrimination laws passed through the EU courts (which of course czech is a part of now).

I remember at BA in the past, anyone with a physical impairment had to be 'self sustainable' in flight. Ie, if the passenger was not capable of using the bathroom on their own, they could not be carried. Of course we would assist such a passenger TO the bathroom using the onboard wheelchair, but we were not to go into the bathroom with the passenger to assist with their business.

The area now seems a little more grey. On the BA website the statement now is:

"Companions providing assistance

If you are not capable of taking care of all your physical needs independently in-flight, we ask you to travel with a companion who can assist you.
We cannot assume obligation for providing on board assistance, which might contravene health, safety or hygiene requirements. "

What that statement no longer says, is that BA will not carry you if you are physically dependant and without a companion. I guess it is more giving guidance and stating the fact that they will not be looked after on board with regards to the areas mentioned, but it is not a point blank 'you cannot travel'.

What would happen if a physcially impaired passenger took BA to task on this issue (as perhaps your seatmate did with CSA) and insisted on travelling independently I think there is little BA (or CSA) could do, legally speaking. As crew however, and to conform with health and hygiene standards, we still wouldn't be able to assist a passenger with no arms/legs etc to the toilet or indeed feed them.

Quoting BAStew (Reply 17): What would happen if a physcially impaired passenger took BA to task on this issue (as perhaps your seatmate did with CSA) and insisted on travelling independently I think there is little BA (or CSA) could do, legally speaking. As crew however, and to conform with health and hygiene standards, we still wouldn't be able to assist a passenger with no arms/legs etc to the toilet or indeed feed them.

I think Air Carrier Access Act is quite similar and applies to both US carriers and foreign carries flying to the USA. Quoting again from http://airconsumer.ost.dot.gov/publications/horizons.htm

In-Cabin Service

Air carrier personnel shall assist a passenger with a disability to:
- Move to and from seats as a part of the boarding and exiting process;
- Open packages and identify food (assistance with actual eating is not required);
- Use an on-board wheelchair when available to enable the passenger to move to and from the lavatory;
- Move to and from the lavatory, in the case of a semi-ambulatory person (as long as this does not require lifting or carrying by the airline employee);
- Load and retrieve carry-on items, including mobility aids and other assistive devices stowed on board the aircraft.

Carrier personnel are not required to provide assistance inside the lavatory or at the passenger’s seat with elimination functions. The carrier personnel are also not required to perform medical services for an individual with a disability.