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GrahamHill
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DUB - CDG - SIN - SYD With Pics

Wed Sep 10, 2008 1:19 pm

Trip report – Airliners.net
DUB-CDG-SIN-SYD

This is my first trip report for airliners.net, so please be cool if it’s not up your expectations! Also, since English is not my mother tongue, please don’t flame me if the level of language is not perfect.

Please also note that I don’t fly long hauls that much (only three long hauls flights done in the last 6 years, including this one) and it is also the first time that I take a flight with transfers since my trip to Chicago back in 1996! So if what I describe below may be obvious for some people, it was not always the case for me.

About 8 months ago, I have decided to pay a visit to my cousin and his wife who live in Sydney. This is not a small trip, so I tried to carefully choose my company. Three solutions appeared to me:

- flying with Air France since I am a Flying Blue member (and therefore get some interesting extra miles on my account);
- flying with Singapore Airlines for €200 less (but no miles whatsoever to earn, I don’t have the KrisFlyer membership), or
- flying with Emirates considering that I don’t have to stop in Paris (I would do Dublin – Dubai – Sydney with them, while I would do Dublin – Paris – Singapore – Sydney with AF and SQ), and for a similar price as Air France’s.

All three options had their advantages, but the fact that I would get 15,000 miles on my Flying Blue card eventually favoured Air France. I would therefore fly with them from Dublin to Paris and from Paris to Singapore, while the flight between Singapore and Sydney would be operated by Qantas.

--------

DUBCDG, 9th February 2008. Flight AF5007 (Air France operated by City Jet).

EDT: 17:30 / ADT: 17:50 (Dublin time)
EAT: 20:00 / AAT: 20:10 (Paris time)
Plane: BAe Avro RJ 85

Flight was scheduled at 17:30 on Saturday. I know this trip by heart since I take Air France to Paris about ten times a year.

I arrived at Dublin airport at 16:00 and checked in at desk 10. The lady was really nice and asked me if I would like to register my luggage for the whole trip (i.e. getting my luggage back only in Sydney) and I accepted. She then confirmed my flight to Sydney and printed out the three boarding passes I would need for this travel (one to Paris, one to Singapore and one to Sydney). Boarding was scheduled at 17:05 and take-off at 17:30.



Last cigarette (I know, it’s bad) before going through security check and gate C42. To my surprise, I was almost the only one at the security check, so I did not have to queue (I have seen queues like you cannot imagine in Dublin airport). I arrived at the gate at 16:50 and I had the unpleasant surprise (well, I should not say “surprise” since this kind of things happens often with Air France on the DUBCDG route) to see that the plane was not yet there. I then realised that boarding at 17:05 would just be a sweet dream! However, just when I thought this, the plane came and we eventually boarded at 17:15, so only 10 minutes after the expected time.


Gate C42 at Dublin Airport


My plane: a BAe Avro RJ 85


Nice sunset over Dublin Airport. Who said it was always raining in Ireland?


My seat was 5C. The plane was only 1/3 full.

Pushback happened at 17:40 and takeoff at 17:50 on runway 28. Flight time was expected to be 1 hour and 25 minutes.

A little snack has been given 10 minutes after takeoff: a selection of pastries and cold beverages, plus the traditional tea or coffee. I chose a muffin and a coke.



When the captain spoke to us, we could barely hear anything. I was a bit annoyed since I always like to know at what flight level we’re flying. But this time, the only sentence understandable over the microphone was “thank you for flying with us”…

Anyway, the flight went well. Touch down was at 20:10 (Paris time). We parked at 20:20, but not at our usual location (we usually park close to Terminal 2F/2E). This time, we were somewhere near terminal 2B! Why did we park there, I don’t know. What I know is that it took us 15 minutes by bus to go to Terminal 2F!!


In CDG

I know it’s not the most convenient airport in the world, but I always know how to easily find my way in this maze.
I had to go to Terminal 2E to catch my flight to Singapore. From Terminal 2F (where I arrived from Dublin), it’s right in front. I know that some A.netters had problems going from 2F to 2E (they were probably misled by some incompetent CDG staff member), so please remember this: it takes only 5 minutes to walk from 2F to 2E. When you leave the Arrivals at 2F, just go straight. It’s really simple, but not always clearly indicated.

When I arrived in Terminal 2E, there was almost no one. Only 8 flights were planned for the evening:



After a short dinner and a cigarette (yes, I know…), I went directly to the passport and security checks. That was quick, since there was absolutely NO ONE queuing.
Then, I headed to gate E69 in the Satellite S3. That was new to me. It is the brand new Satellite in CDG (mostly designed to welcome A380s) and it was the first time I was getting a plane from there. I took this nice shuttle:



And then these huge stairs:



To finally arrive here:



CDGSIN, 9th February 2008. AF 256.

EDT: 23:15 / ADT: 23:35 (Paris local time)
EAT: 18:35 / AAT: 18:40 (Singapore local time)
Plane: Boeing 777-300


My plane: A Boeing 777-300

Expected boarding time was at 22:20 and we actually boarded ten minutes later. My seat was 42A. A flight attendant politely guided me to my seat.

When everyone was on board, the captain welcomed us and told us our flight route: Basel, South of Budapest, North of Ankara, North of Tehran, South of Delhi, South of Calcutta, South of Phuket, West of Kuala Lumpur and finally Singapore.

When passenger count was over, we pushed back at 23:20 and took-off at 23:35 on runway 08L.

A short while after take-off, we received amenity kits. In Economy class with Air France, you get an eye mask, ear plugs (really convenient) and earphones. But those are crap. The ergonomic is not satisfying and the sound they provide is not good at all. It’s about time I bought an adapter and used my own ones. Fortunately, the video on demand was very good. Here are some of the movies available during the flight:
Gone Baby Gone, The Kingdom, Michael Clayton, Dodgeball, The Devil wears Prada, the Full Monty, Harry Potter, Garfield, Ice Age 2, Ratatouille, Night at the Museum, Live Free or Die hard, Mr and Ms Smith, etc. And for the French ones: les Tontons Flingueurs, les Visiteurs, les Bronzés, Pur Week-end, 36 Quai des Orfèvres, etc. I did not remember all the movies available as there were too many. There was also a good choice of TV series like Friends, Heroes, Desperate Housewives, etc. Plus video games (ok, it’s not PlayStation 3, but still) and news, music, etc.





Since I live in Ireland, I’ve decided to catch up with some French movies, and I chose “Pur week-end”. Clearly not the best I’ve seen, but still enjoyable.

Then they gave us the menu:

Starter
Arles-style tart of bell peppers, tomatoes and eggplant.

Main Course
Roasted chicken fricassee with spicy tomato sauce and semolina with chives (which I chose)
Or
Chinese-style pork with bell peppers accompanied with rice.

Camembert cheese

Yogurt

Apricot crumble

Coffee and tea

http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/9797/p1010390in1.jpg

I must say that the starter was good, so were the roasted chicken and the semolina. The crumble was very good. The camembert, on the other hand, was not (off-topic, I just would like to say something about the camembert: I originally come from Normandy and more precisely from the Pays d’Auge where Camembert was created by Marie Harel.
First, camembert that is not made in Normandy cannot be “real” camembert. Despite what it is written on the package. The term “camembert” is not protected, so any one in the world can call his cheese “camembert”. You can find Australian camembert, American camembert, South African camembert, etc. But make no mistake: these ones are not the real stuff.
Second, camembert that is made with pasteurised milk is certainly not camembert. Real and genuine camembert must be made with non pasteurised milk.)

Anyway, at mid-flight, a selection of Asian noodles, sandwiches, ice-creams and beverages was available.

After my movie was finished, I decided to start reading “Eric Clapton: the autobiography” that my brother gave me for Christmas.

And then some sleep!

About less than two hours before landing, the crew served breakfast. Cheddar cheese and some kind of smoked ham (I never thought Air France could give cheese for breakfast, what a horrible culinary choice), yogurt, bread, jam, butter, orange juice, a cake (very good cake, by the way) and a fruit salad. Plus the traditional tea or coffee.


The breakfast







Over Malaysia


Close to Singapore


On short final…


We touched down right on time at Changi Airport on runway 02L. While taxiing on our way to the gate, we saw SIA’s A380. It was the second time I could see an A380 after the one I saw in Paris in June 2007. A very impressive aircraft!

I did not have much time between the two flights, but since the departure gate to Sydney was not far from where we arrived, I decided to go for a smoke. I had my cigarette in a very nice smoking area. It was an open air one, so I could at least taste a bit the Singaporean air! And it’s like I imagined: warm with a lot of humidity.


Nice smoking garden.

And that was it for Singapore! Once the cigarette was finished, I rushed to the security check at gate C25 as they were calling for passengers to Sydney.


The 747-400 of Qantas was waiting (sorry for the bad quality)



SINSYD, 10th February. AF 8096/QF 006.

EDT: 19:55 / ADT: 20:10 (Singapore local time)
EAT: 06:25 / AAT: 06:10 (Sydney local time)

It was my first time in a 747 since my trip to Japan in 2002, so I was pretty excited. My seat was 47K, so I had the view on the impressive wing. That was perfect to me!

The plane was equipped with PTVs, but the IFE was not as good as AF’s one. The screen was about the same one as AF’s but the image quality was slightly better. Video on demand was not as rich as AF’s. Anyway, it was just 7 hours of flight and my main activity would be again reading and sleeping, so I was not really paying attention to it.

We pushed back at 19:55 and took off at 20:10. Soon after take-off, we got the amenity kit: a pair of socks, a key ring and a sleep mask.






We then got the menu. I thought I had kept it but it seems that I did not, so I will just tell you approximately what we had:

Starter:
Asian noodle salad

Main Course:
Egg pasta with peas
Or
Fish

Chocolate bar

Bread.


I chose the pasta (since I am not a huge fan of fish) but I would soon regret it. It was disgusting, absolutely disgusting. The taste was awful and there was way too much butter. I was really disappointed, especially because the salad was not really good either. So I took revenge on the beer and the chocolate bar.


The dinner

Anyway, with all this, I did not realise we had crossed the equator line! The first time in my life I was in the southern hemisphere! Happy days!

The flight went well. I read and eventually got some sleep. When I woke up, we were flying over New South Wales, but it was dark outside, so I could not take advantage of seeing Australia from above.

The crew served a breakfast before landing. A pain au raisin, slices of fruits, a coffee and orange juice were offered.


The breakfast

We smoothly landed at 6:10 in the morning, local time. I was happy to get out of the plane and finally be there! My God, I knew that Sydney was far from Europe, but that far… (it was even worse on my way back).

So I took my backpack and went out of the plane and on to the immigration control. I experienced the American one (where they take your finger and eye prints, as if you were a vulgar criminal), and dared to experience the Australian one. But nothing happened. I gave my passport, no question asked, no finger prints to give, no rough talking (although I did not have neither “hello” nor “goodbye” from the lad).

I then got my luggage back. I had this small apprehension that it could get lost. After all, the last time I saw it was in Dublin, when I checked in. Did it follow me to the other side of the world? Yes it did!


Before I could get some fresh air outside, I had to go through another luggage checking (which surprised me somewhat since I am not used to get my luggage checked after arrival). I’ve seen some footage in Discovery channel where the Australian staff was really rude with newcomers. But then again, nothing like that happened. Staff members were very polite. I scanned my luggage and got the authorization to enter the Australian soil!!!

Conclusions.

Both flights were nice, although I cannot be a reference since I don’t travel on long hauls that much.

For the Air France flight:

- The crew was nice, very polite, always smiling;
- The food was excellent;
- The PTVs are too small and the sound is really crap. But the choice of movies was excellent;
- Ear plugs provided are really convenient.
- The plane landed on time.


For the Qantas flight:

- The crew was ok (no smiles and there were giving the food as if they were on a production line, but the overall service was good);
- The dinner was disgusting. The breakfast was much better;
- The PTVs and the sound were slightly better than AF’s. However, the choice of movies was not as good as AF’s;
- The plane landed on time as well.
"A learned fool is more foolish than an ignorant one" - Moliere
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: DUB - CDG - SIN - SYD With Pics

Wed Sep 10, 2008 2:03 pm

An excellent trip report.Pictures are great.Also your English is perfect.Well done.
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LH4116
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RE: DUB - CDG - SIN - SYD With Pics

Wed Sep 10, 2008 3:24 pm

Nice TR!
It was very interesting to read an AF long haul report. The food on AF long haul looked excellent. The meal service on AF's short haul flights (2h 30m+) is also very good, they do even serve you a full meal which is by far more superior than other EU airlines. Were the plates made of real china or were they just plastic? How was the 3-4-3 seating on AF's 77W, was it cramped or did it feel just like the 3-3-3.
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phlstudent
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RE: DUB - CDG - SIN - SYD With Pics

Wed Sep 10, 2008 3:46 pm



Quoting GrahamHill (Thread starter):
This is my first trip report for airliners.net, so please be cool if it’s not up your expectations! Also, since English is not my mother tongue, please don’t flame me if the level of language is not perfect.

while I understand why you put this disclaimer, do not worry, your english was fine, and your report was great.
 
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GrahamHill
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RE: DUB - CDG - SIN - SYD With Pics

Wed Sep 10, 2008 4:33 pm



Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 1):
An excellent trip report.Pictures are great.Also your English is perfect.Well done.

Thank you, SOBHI51!

Quoting LH4116 (Reply 2):
The food on AF long haul looked excellent.

For plane food, yes, it was really good. Especially compared to the one I had on the Qantas flight.

Quoting LH4116 (Reply 2):
Were the plates made of real china or were they just plastic?

That's an interesting question, and I am sorry to say that I did not pay attention to that  sorry  . From what I can see on the picture, the plate holding the main dish looks like china (the food itself being in an aluminium container) while the plate containing the starter looks plastic.

Quoting LH4116 (Reply 2):
How was the 3-4-3 seating on AF's 77W, was it cramped or did it feel just like the 3-3-3.

Being 6"1, I always feel cramped in a plane! But I had enough space for my knees, and being on the window seat allowed me to put the pillow on the wall and have some decent sleep. The seat width is also correct. After 12 hours of flight, though, I was quite happy to get out of the plane!

Quoting PHLstudent (Reply 3):
while I understand why you put this disclaimer, do not worry, your english was fine, and your report was great.

Thanks a lot PHLstudent! It's not always easy to have a correct writing style, especially when it's not your mother tongue. I tried as hard as I could  Smile
"A learned fool is more foolish than an ignorant one" - Moliere
 
parisien
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RE: DUB - CDG - SIN - SYD With Pics

Wed Sep 10, 2008 5:18 pm

HI there,
gosh what an excellent trip report, both the write up and the pics !
thanks for sharing that...finally, someone who thinks CDG is ok !!!
 
semsem
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RE: DUB - CDG - SIN - SYD With Pics

Wed Sep 10, 2008 8:53 pm

Air France are excellent. Qantas 20 years ago were great. They were very generous with their meals. Now they look pretty awful.
 
amigocharlie
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RE: DUB - CDG - SIN - SYD With Pics

Wed Sep 10, 2008 9:26 pm

WOW! Very well written first report! Didn't skip one word!

Quoting GrahamHill (Thread starter):
So I took revenge on the beer

just the way I would do it Big grin

Well done.
Bobby
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GrahamHill
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RE: DUB - CDG - SIN - SYD With Pics

Thu Sep 11, 2008 9:29 am



Quoting Parisien (Reply 5):
gosh what an excellent trip report, both the write up and the pics !

Thank you, Parisien!

Quoting Parisien (Reply 5):
thanks for sharing that...finally, someone who thinks CDG is ok !!!

Well, I said that it's "not the most convenient airport in the world"  Wink. There are some things in this airport that still amaze me, like how bad the signs are. Who had the brigth idea to name the long-term car park "Px"??? If you stand in front of a sign saying "Px", do you know it means "long-term car park"? I don't! Nobody does!

But I know they are improving it. One example is the shuttle connecting all terminals. Much better than the bus.

Quoting Semsem (Reply 6):
Air France are excellent.

Usually yes. But then again, on long hauls, I don't have much experience, so I cannot compare. I flew JAL once and the service was also very good.

Quoting Semsem (Reply 6):
Qantas 20 years ago were great. They were very generous with their meals. Now they look pretty awful.

To Qantas defense, the meal I had on my way back was good. So I was probably unlucky with these pasta!

Quoting Amigocharlie (Reply 7):
WOW! Very well written first report! Didn't skip one word!

Thank you, Amigocharlie!

Quoting Amigocharlie (Reply 7):
just the way I would do it

 Wink Big grin
"A learned fool is more foolish than an ignorant one" - Moliere
 
BHD
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RE: DUB - CDG - SIN - SYD With Pics

Thu Sep 11, 2008 11:08 am

Excellent first report with great narrative, good pics and good English - felt like I was taking the trip myself - so well done!!!
 
DALCE
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RE: DUB - CDG - SIN - SYD With Pics

Thu Sep 11, 2008 12:03 pm

An impressive report!
You really made an impressive trip!
Wouldn't it be shorter from DUB to fly to SYD westbound?
Thanks for sharing!

Au Revoir!
Joost ( D-ALCE )
flown: F50,F70,CR1,CR2,CR9,E75,143,AR8,AR1,733,735,736,73G,738,753,744,77W,788,319,320,321,333,AB6.
 
nicholaschee
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RE: DUB - CDG - SIN - SYD With Pics

Thu Sep 11, 2008 12:07 pm

Great trip report. Impressive write up and presentation. If not for the disclaimer, it would have passed off as a regular TR.

Quoting GrahamHill (Thread starter):
Also, since English is not my mother tongue, please don’t flame me if the level of language is not perfect.

Are you joking? It's perfect! I have met native speakers from England with poorer standards.  Wink

Quoting GrahamHill (Thread starter):
My plane: A Boeing 777-300

It's a 777-300ER  Wink
 
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GrahamHill
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RE: DUB - CDG - SIN - SYD With Pics

Thu Sep 11, 2008 3:25 pm



Quoting DALCE (Reply 10):
An impressive report!

Thank you, DALCE!

Quoting DALCE (Reply 10):
Wouldn't it be shorter from DUB to fly to SYD westbound?

Well, DUB-CDG-SIN-SYD was the trip AF offered me on their website. I would hope that if going westbound was shorter, they would have offered me DUB-CDG-LAX-SYD or something similar. It would be interested to check that out, actually!

Quoting Nicholaschee (Reply 11):
Great trip report. Impressive write up and presentation. If not for the disclaimer, it would have passed off as a regular TR.



Quoting Nicholaschee (Reply 11):
Are you joking? It's perfect! I have met native speakers from England with poorer standards. Wink

Thanks, Nicholaschee! I'm blushing now  blush  Big grin

Quoting Nicholaschee (Reply 11):
It's a 777-300ER

Indeed. Sorry for not precising.
"A learned fool is more foolish than an ignorant one" - Moliere
 
f1eddie
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RE: DUB - CDG - SIN - SYD With Pics

Fri Sep 12, 2008 1:07 am

Yeah great trip report. English is perfect. That was a lovely photo of dub alright....

Quoting DALCE (Reply 10):
Wouldn't it be shorter from DUB to fly to SYD westbound?

Well its pretty close but i taught going east is quickest. Looking at the great ciricle mapper. the route Grahamhill took was 11063. If he did DUB-CDG-LAX-SYD that would be 13646, and if he did DUB-LAX-SYD, which will be no longer as EI have dropped this route for the winter anyway, and also EI did not offer an interline with QF that way, it would have been 12669. So yes the quickest way from DUB to SYD is east. Besides who would actually in there right mind transfer through america??

Quoting GrahamHill (Thread starter):
- flying with Emirates considering that I don't have to stop in Paris (I would do Dublin -- Dubai -- Sydney with them, while I would do Dublin -- Paris -- Singapore -- Sydney with AF and SQ), and for a similar price as Air France's.

How was this going to work??? Connecting with EI in DXB. I was in OZ for the year of 06 and i was coming home on a one way. No travel agents would sell me SYD/MEL>LAX then connecting onto EI or SYD/MEL>DXB and then again connecting onto EI. They said i would have to buy two one ways for any of those options, and i was not willing to do that. Pick up bags at connecting airports, no security if my first flight was delayed etc etc
Flown on EI, FR, BMI, TG, PG, FD, JQ, DJ, LA, NZ, SQ, DL, LX, LH
 
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GrahamHill
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RE: DUB - CDG - SIN - SYD With Pics

Fri Sep 12, 2008 9:48 am



Quoting F1eddie (Reply 13):
Yeah great trip report. English is perfect.

Thanks F1eddie!

Quoting F1eddie (Reply 13):
How was this going to work???

I don't know! That was the route offered on Emirates' website, but I've never tried to look further  Wink
"A learned fool is more foolish than an ignorant one" - Moliere
 
DALCE
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RE: DUB - CDG - SIN - SYD With Pics

Fri Sep 12, 2008 9:55 am

Mr. Hill and Mr. Eddie...

You must also be big F1 fans  Smile

@ F1eddie

Thanks for clearing up the eastbound route being slightly shorter  Smile

Cheers,
Joost ( D-ALCE ) ( a big B&H Jordan GP fan )
flown: F50,F70,CR1,CR2,CR9,E75,143,AR8,AR1,733,735,736,73G,738,753,744,77W,788,319,320,321,333,AB6.
 
ba319-131
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RE: DUB - CDG - SIN - SYD With Pics

Fri Sep 12, 2008 10:55 am

Nice report and pictures, thanks, enjoyed your trip  Smile

I do dislike CDG, not an airport I'd like to transit through.

Food looks pretty decent on AF, quite a contrast to your QF food, that said they did serve VB which I love!

Look forward to the return trip.

Regards

Mark
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AmricanShamrok
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RE: DUB - CDG - SIN - SYD With Pics

Fri Sep 12, 2008 4:07 pm

A nice TR Graham with lots of good pics.

That FIDS at CDG looks just like the one at DUB.
 
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GrahamHill
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RE: DUB - CDG - SIN - SYD With Pics

Fri Sep 12, 2008 5:14 pm



Quoting DALCE (Reply 15):
You must also be big F1 fans

A big fan of motorsports in general, and endurance in particular. My interest in F1 has been fading away for the last 10 years  Sad

Quoting DALCE (Reply 15):
Joost ( D-ALCE ) ( a big B&H Jordan GP fan )

Me too!

Quoting BA319-131 (Reply 16):
Nice report and pictures, thanks, enjoyed your trip

Thanks BA319-131!

Quoting BA319-131 (Reply 16):
Food looks pretty decent on AF, quite a contrast to your QF food, that said they did serve VB which I love!

Yes, pretty decent. As for the QF food, as I said in reply #8, it was much better on my return trip.

Quoting BA319-131 (Reply 16):
Look forward to the return trip.

Don't put pressure on me Big grin

Quoting AmricanShamrok (Reply 17):
A nice TR Graham with lots of good pics.

Thanks AmricanShamrok!

Quoting AmricanShamrok (Reply 17):
That FIDS at CDG looks just like the one at DUB.

Yes, pretty similar  Wink
"A learned fool is more foolish than an ignorant one" - Moliere
 
f1eddie
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RE: DUB - CDG - SIN - SYD With Pics

Sat Sep 13, 2008 1:21 am



Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 14):
I don't know! That was the route offered on Emirates' website, but I've never tried to look further  

That must have been through LHR. I know they codeshare with BMI......

Quoting DALCE (Reply 15):
Mr. Hill and Mr. Eddie...

You must also be big F1 fans  

@ F1eddie

Thanks for clearing up the eastbound route being slightly shorter  

Yeah i loved F1 back in the day. I still watch it and follow it but other things have taken over.

I never looked into distances from DUB going east or west. I actually assumed it would have been the same. But i would avoid america at all costs for transiting. I only looked into it because i was going to look into stopping off in LAX for a few days. Decided my minscule funds would go further in SIN...
Flown on EI, FR, BMI, TG, PG, FD, JQ, DJ, LA, NZ, SQ, DL, LX, LH
 
bill142
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RE: DUB - CDG - SIN - SYD With Pics

Sat Sep 13, 2008 1:23 am



Quoting GrahamHill (Thread starter):

Before I could get some fresh air outside, I had to go through another luggage checking (which surprised me somewhat since I am not used to get my luggage checked after arrival).

It was quarantine. It's something we take very seriously as agriculture is an important part of our economy.

Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 18):
My interest in F1 has been fading away for the last 10 years Sad

Don't let it get away! Find that passion inside!
 
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GrahamHill
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RE: DUB - CDG - SIN - SYD With Pics

Sun Sep 14, 2008 4:37 pm



Quoting Bill142 (Reply 20):
It was quarantine. It's something we take very seriously as agriculture is an important part of our economy.

Yes, that's what I've been told.

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 20):
Don't let it get away! Find that passion inside!

I still have it, but now F1 is all about money and business. Sportsmanship is not a value that exists anymore.
"A learned fool is more foolish than an ignorant one" - Moliere

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