ME AVN FAN
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RE: Israel Bomb 'kills UN Observers'

Thu Jul 27, 2006 8:07 pm

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 140):
Israel should make sure that humanitarian corridors are permitted so that the UN and others can provide this much-needed assistance

what is needed is NOT "corridors" but simply a stop of the attacks of Israel against any targets north of the Litani River, and a lifting of all blockading actions of Israel. What is needed is that trade can be resumed, both export-import-wise as well as internally. It is a different matter in the South-of-Litani-Zone. In that case it might be very well understandable if Israel declares only to be ready to hand over that zone to a convincingly strong international force, but would NOT leave the area before they had fully arrived.
 
AerospaceFan
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RE: Israel Bomb 'kills UN Observers'

Thu Jul 27, 2006 8:12 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 149):
"The UN south Lebanon mission was the first ever peacekeeping mission, set up in 1948 to monitor ceasefire lines between Egypt, Lebanon and Syria and the new state of Israel."

Thank you for the information.

If the UN had been able to act to prevent hostilities between Lebanon and Israel, the utility of these observations would have been proved. Since it seems clear that hostilities have occurred, there is no need for such observer or peacekeeping teams to exist, so they should pull out immediately rather than continue to place themselves at risk.
What's fair is fair.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Israel Bomb 'kills UN Observers'

Thu Jul 27, 2006 8:18 pm

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 151):
Since it seems clear that hostilities have occurred, there is no need for such observer or peacekeeping teams to exist, so they should pull out immediately rather than continue to place themselves at risk.

Quite to the CONTRARY, they should pull IN immediately, with credible force, and not just a few "observers". A real "peacekeeping force" canNOT be based on a few delegated officers, but needs REAL troops. "Teams" is exactly what was there, but it is NOT adequate. And "place themselves at risk" ? They are very clearly marked, so that it is easy to see them for whomever wants to see them.
-
You possibly of course are in favour of General Lahoud giving a phone-call to Dr Assad to ask him for Syrian troops to get deployed into South Lebanon.
-
 
AerospaceFan
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RE: Israel Bomb 'kills UN Observers'

Thu Jul 27, 2006 8:21 pm

I might add that I find that the fact that UN observers have been killed is most troubling and that Israel should provide a detailed explanation for its actions.

I would also add, however, that there are serious doubts as to whether Israel deliberately attacked the UN outpost.

(Excerpt)

Quote:
Prime Minister Stephen Harper says he seriously doubts Israeli forces deliberately targeted a UN post in south Lebanon, killing a Canadian and three other unarmed observers, and wants to know why the station was even being manned in the midst of what amounts to a war.

In his first response to Tuesday’s deadly bombing, Harper told reporters in New Brunswick on Wednesday he will ask Canadian military officials to consult with UN and Israeli authorities to get to the bottom of what he called a "terrible tragedy."

Source:

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/s...5ab-4c53-a1b7-d234b45c4c31&k=98995

I think that Israel, having both vigorously denied allegations of such deliberate targeting and conveyed deep regrets over the loss of the UN personnel, realizes that there would be no excuse for any such act, if deliberate.

[Edited 2006-07-27 13:24:52]
What's fair is fair.
 
rammstein
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RE: Israel Bomb 'kills UN Observers'

Thu Jul 27, 2006 8:24 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 152):
Quite to the CONTRARY, they should pull IN immediately, with credible force, and not just a few "observers". A real "peacekeeping force" canNOT be based on a few delegated officers, but needs REAL troops. "Teams" is exactly what was there, but it is NOT adequate. And "place themselves at risk" ? They are very clearly marked, so that it is easy to see them for whomever wants to see them.

I agree completely. Now it's time to put a strong international force of both observers and armed personnel. An EU-joint military force would be perfect (compliments to Mr. Chirac for strongly pushing for this), without having to wait the slow UN machine (vetoed of course by US) to move.
He who wishes to be rich in a day will be hanged in a day. --Leonardo Da Vinci
 
AerospaceFan
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RE: Israel Bomb 'kills UN Observers'

Thu Jul 27, 2006 8:25 pm

Quoting Rammstein (Reply 154):
An EU-joint military force would be perfect (compliments to Mr. Chirac for strongly pushing for this), without having to wait the slow UN machine (vetoed of course by US) to move.

Under what authority would the EU deploy forces there?

Let's assume that Lebanon invites the intercession of the EU. Let's say that Israel opposes it. What then?

[Edited 2006-07-27 13:26:11]
What's fair is fair.
 
NAV20
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RE: Israel Bomb 'kills UN Observers'

Thu Jul 27, 2006 8:30 pm

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 151):
there is no need for such observer or peacekeeping teams to exist

They were (and are) there to 'monitor' as well, AerospaceFan.

The Israelis currently seem to be bogged down in a stalemate against a guerrilla enemy who knows the country inside out and has the advantage of large numbers of camouflaged bunkers connected by tunnels.

It is virtual suicide for an army formed and equipped on 'normal' lines - and mainly vehicle-borne, and therefore confined to the roads - to advance in face of an enemy like that. Unless it resorts to 'area' use of the sort of weapons which are either frowned upon by world opinion or expressly forbidden by the Geneva Conventions. Examples are napalm, phosphorus, 'bunker-busters' (earthquake bombs), flamethrowers, 'vacuum bombs'.........

It would be decidedly inconvenient to have informed, neutral military observers around, reporting your every action to the UN and other international agencies, if you happened to be planning to use stuff like that on a large scale.
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
rammstein
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RE: Israel Bomb 'kills UN Observers'

Thu Jul 27, 2006 8:31 pm

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 155):

Let's assume that Lebanon invites the intercession of the EU. Let's say that Israel opposes it. What then?

Lebanon is an independent sovreign State. If Lebanon invites EU (and they already did), Israel can say what they want and if they don't "approve" they can simply go to hell.

[Edited 2006-07-27 13:33:29]
He who wishes to be rich in a day will be hanged in a day. --Leonardo Da Vinci
 
AerospaceFan
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RE: Israel Bomb 'kills UN Observers'

Thu Jul 27, 2006 8:31 pm

An interesting resource that I just found concerning the possible missions of the EU military (such as it is) may be found at the following:

http://www.iss-eu.org/esdp/04-mo.pdf

Note that both humanitarian and peacekeeping ventures are authorized.

It nevertheless remains quite unclear whether the EU can impose its own decision to intervene in the affairs of any non-EU country. If the EU were to intervene in this crisis, it would have to do so legally, and I am searching for a basis for it to do so.

Policy-wise, query whether the EU should not intervene in African disputes first, since at least one country of the EU, France, has already done so individually in recent years.

Intervening in the Israeli-Lebanese conflict in this way would also set an international precedent that the EU would have to seriously consider.

[Edited 2006-07-27 13:39:50]
What's fair is fair.
 
AerospaceFan
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RE: Israel Bomb 'kills UN Observers'

Thu Jul 27, 2006 8:34 pm

Quoting Rammstein (Reply 157):
Lebanon is an independent sovreign State. If Lebanon invites EU (as they already did), Israel can say what they want and if they don't "approve" they can simply go to hell.

Israel then might not be held to account for attacks on EU forces, since it would seem that by the laws of war, depending on what the EU forces do, the EU could be considered a belligerent, as its acts could be deemed to render aid to an enemy. (One can question whether Israel's actions have crossed the line and become aggressive rather than defensive, but that's a separate issue.)

The chances of EU military intercession, in my view, are less than one percent.

[Edited 2006-07-27 13:36:09]
What's fair is fair.
 
AerospaceFan
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RE: Israel Bomb 'kills UN Observers'

Thu Jul 27, 2006 8:38 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 156):
The Israelis currently seem to be bogged down in a stalemate against a guerrilla enemy who knows the country inside out and has the advantage of large numbers of camouflaged bunkers connected by tunnels.

The land war is only a few days old, and Israel has made some advances and seized territory to this point, so I wouldn't call it a "stalemate" at this time. I would, however, agree that Israel is fighting a harder war than it probably anticipated.
What's fair is fair.
 
mrmeangenes
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RE: Israel Bomb 'kills UN Observers'

Thu Jul 27, 2006 8:39 pm

gene
 
AerospaceFan
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RE: Israel Bomb 'kills UN Observers'

Thu Jul 27, 2006 8:51 pm

Interesting link, Mrmeangenes.

Further thoughts on the intercession of the EU:

It seems to me that the following two points could be made:

1. If the EU is invited in for purely humanitarian reasons, there should be some way found to allow it to provide assistance.

2. There isn't anything stopping European countries, individually, from providing such assistance, so long as Israel, as I think it should, allows humanitarian corridors to do so.

[Edited 2006-07-27 13:55:21]
What's fair is fair.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Israel Bomb 'kills UN Observers'

Thu Jul 27, 2006 9:10 pm

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 155):
Under what authority would the EU deploy forces there?

Let's assume that Lebanon invites the intercession of the EU. Let's say that Israel opposes it. What then?

Whether E.U., U.N. or NATO, the Israelis have to be included in the consultation. And if they demand that it should NOT be a French, but a British or Dutch or Danish commander, it HAS to be such a commander. And if the Israelis state that they are against this or that "nationality" then so be it. As one of the reasons for such a peacekeeping operation is to have the trust of the Israelis, and the Israelis will NOT trust a kind of village-sized police-force. True, the whole thing may need some Messrs Ambassadors in Jerusalem to do a bit more work than usual. Suppose it is what those gentlemen are paid for.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Israel Bomb 'kills UN Observers'

Thu Jul 27, 2006 9:20 pm

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 162):
2. There isn't anything stopping European countries, individually, from providing such assistance, so long as Israel, as I think it should, allows humanitarian corridors to do so.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5217438.stm

The memory of the Holocaust is fuelling a debate in Germany over involvement in a Lebanon peace force, even before practical steps are taken to create one.

German newspapers on Wednesday aired a number of arguments for and against sending German soldiers to the Middle East, with the "burden of history" looming large.

"History is the past, but the history of the Holocaust belongs to the German present," said the Frankfurter Rundschau.

No German soldier should, even theoretically, "be brought into a situation where he has to aim his weapon at an Israeli", it added.

The Suddeutsche Zeitung said it was "astonishing" that politicians were discussing the idea, while Austria's Der Standard said it was "unthinkable" that the grandchildren of Holocaust perpetrators might find themselves shooting at the grandchildren of victims.


(No replies on this particular issue will be given to the user initially quoted in this post, since I refuse to wait 30 minutes for the editing window to close for follow-ups.)
International Homo of Mystery
 
AerospaceFan
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RE: Israel Bomb 'kills UN Observers'

Thu Jul 27, 2006 9:26 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 164):
The memory of the Holocaust is fuelling a debate in Germany over involvement in a Lebanon peace force, even before practical steps are taken to create one.

Granted. Yet, what's stopping, for example, France? Italy? Britain? (This is aside from the question of whether Israel has permitted humanitarian efforts altogether.)

Another point is that the lessons the EU draws from history ought not be deemed particularly separated from those drawn from those of its member states; what history teaches its largest members (Germany, France, Britain) ought also to bind the EU. Thus, from this point of view, the intervention of the EU would not be justified if intervention by its member countries would not.

[Edited 2006-07-27 14:28:48]
What's fair is fair.
 
stormbringer
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RE: Israel Bomb 'kills UN Observers'

Thu Jul 27, 2006 9:42 pm

Might it be better for countries like Brazil, Chile, Japan, or South Korea who have little interest or historical baggage in the region to step in? Maybe with NATO logistical support.
It's not road rage. It's COURTESY ENFORCEMENT.
 
Clogman
Posts: 305
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RE: Israel Bomb 'kills UN Observers'

Thu Jul 27, 2006 9:44 pm

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 112):
Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 111):
Amazing, RJ, he can tell that sitting in Canada, isn't it?

Were are you sitting that you can tell that is wasnt a deliberate and methodical?

Just saying..

Listen to yourself guys. You sound like a kindergarden class or so.
So Falcon. Just because I dont support Israel in this case doesnt make me a terrorist supporter. I feel sorry for Lebanon that they have assholes like Hizbollah whos ruin everything for them. And on the other side it despise me that Israel are totally destroying the infrastructure.
But its easy to sit over in the US and act like a wiseguy when you only see the thing from 1 side isnt it?
 
rjpieces
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RE: Israel Bomb 'kills UN Observers'

Thu Jul 27, 2006 9:54 pm

Quoting Rammstein (Reply 139):
This commercial sums the American point of view of Israel

Yes, I'd say it does.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 159):
The chances of EU military intercession, in my view, are less than one percent.

I'd love to see it but I have serious doubts...Any force that is deployed to South Lebanon will have to FIGHT Hezbollah and disarm them. The EU couldn't even get it together to take care of Kosovo and that was in their OWN backyard...I cant' see them sustaining a serious fight against Hezbollah in Lebanon.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 163):
Whether E.U., U.N. or NATO, the Israelis have to be included in the consultation

Don't forget the Syrians. I posted in the Tom Friedman thread that the last time this peacekeeping force in South Lebanon was tried, the result was the Marine Barracks bombing...
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
windshear
Posts: 2268
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RE: Israel Bomb 'kills UN Observers'

Thu Jul 27, 2006 10:00 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 138):
A) I like the comparison with current events
B) Amazing is that the Bible uses the same "nice" phrases as the Quran. It was the style in those times, but what about getting forward to new ways ?

heh buddy the Qur'an does not use the same quotes, they have far worse verses, and they are inciting.
How on earth can you use the words said to Abraham by G-d himself as a comparison to this political crisis??
I think it is you who is far from secular, not Israel...

Quoting Baroque (Reply 135):
What was that a picture of? All I got was a link that could have been to the infamous cartoons for all I know.

If you cannot see the picture I shall attempt again:



Boaz.
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
windshear
Posts: 2268
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RE: Israel Bomb 'kills UN Observers'

Thu Jul 27, 2006 10:05 pm

Quoting Clogman (Reply 167):
But its easy to sit over in the US and act like a wiseguy when you only see the thing from 1 side isnt it?

This sure looks much like something you criticized Falcon for writing...  Yeah sure

Quoting Clogman (Reply 167):
And on the other side it despise me that Israel are totally destroying the infrastructure.

yes well it is most unfortunate for Libanon and its progressive citizens, but it is Hizbollah that is being targeted, where ever they are is a target, simple as that.

Boaz.
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
stormbringer
Posts: 139
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RE: Israel Bomb 'kills UN Observers'

Thu Jul 27, 2006 10:08 pm

Quoting Windshear (Reply 170):
but it is Hizbollah that is being targeted

Firing madly into a crowd and killing innocent people cannot be justified by claiming you were aiming at a criminal.
It's not road rage. It's COURTESY ENFORCEMENT.
 
frequentflyer
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RE: Israel Bomb 'kills UN Observers'

Thu Jul 27, 2006 10:12 pm

Another example of UN impotence. UN-mandated General Pelligrini himself said yesterday that unifil is not adapted any more.

That area of the world needs a pacifier.

That means, a real fire-ready 20000 member force on a sure footing with objectives:

- Disarm hezb.
- Prevent hezb. from rearming
- Establish a buffer, and it may be wider than 2 Miles
- Train the Lebanese Army (those guys have to put their house in order)
- Leave when Lebanon is back to Sovereignty.

Am a supporter of Israel to exist, as I support other sovereign nations likewise, but I am angered at civilian deaths. This is a stain on Israel's history.
Take off and live
 
windshear
Posts: 2268
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RE: Israel Bomb 'kills UN Observers'

Thu Jul 27, 2006 10:25 pm

Quoting Stormbringer (Reply 171):
Firing madly into a crowd and killing innocent people cannot be justified by claiming you were aiming at a criminal.

and this is what you percieve Israel to be doing? Making up "excuses" to kill people?

Quoting Frequentflyer (Reply 172):
Another example of UN impotence. UN-mandated General Pelligrini himself said yesterday that unifil is not adapted any more.

There are many in Lebanon! The UN have always been prevented in completing their tasks and do their job properly in Lebanon, because of Hizbollah threats and kidnappings, this case is no different here is some stuff from a Canadian channel:

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNew...ideast_lebanon_UN_060716/20060718/

A Danish News paper brought the story of Major Paeta Hess-von Kruedener's mail which is published on the site above, they also brought a quote from an interview with Lewis MacKenzie which can be heard here:

http://cbc.ca/metromorning/media/20060726LMCJUL26.ram

This is a quote from Lewis Mackenzie with my emphasys:

"...the tragic loss of a soldier yesterday who I happen to know and I think probably is from my Regiment. We've received e-mails from him a few days ago and he described the fact that he was taking within - in one case - three meters of his position "for tactical necessity - not being targeted". Now that's veiled speech in the military and what he was telling us was Hizbullah fighters were all over his position and the IDF were targeting them and that's a favorite trick by people who don't have representation in the UN. They use the UN as shields knowing that they can't be punished for it."

Guess the pieces are falling into place...

A link to the Danish story, but only in danish: http://www.berlingske.dk/udland/artikel:aid=770480/

Boaz.
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
Clogman
Posts: 305
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RE: Israel Bomb 'kills UN Observers'

Thu Jul 27, 2006 10:25 pm

Quoting Windshear (Reply 170):
This sure looks much like something you criticized Falcon for writing...

I'm not the one calling everyone who doesnt agree with Israeal terrorist supporters.
Look what I wrote afterwards. You should see it from both sides. I see it from Lebanons side and not Hezbollah. I dont support Hezbollah at all. They are the cowards who cant stand up and fight like the "real" soldiers they are supposed to be if you ask them.
 
windshear
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Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2000 4:45 pm

RE: Israel Bomb 'kills UN Observers'

Thu Jul 27, 2006 10:29 pm

Quoting Clogman (Reply 174):
I'm not the one calling everyone who doesnt agree with Israeal terrorist supporters.

No that is right, but the quote you posted, and the quote from you I wrote, are very similar, that is all.

Quoting Clogman (Reply 174):
You should see it from both sides. I see it from Lebanons side and not Hezbollah. I dont support Hezbollah at all. They are the cowards who cant stand up and fight like the "real" soldiers they are supposed to be if you ask them.

 checkmark 
Yes you are right, very right.

Boaz.
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
stormbringer
Posts: 139
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RE: Israel Bomb 'kills UN Observers'

Thu Jul 27, 2006 10:30 pm

Quoting Windshear (Reply 173):
and this is what you percieve Israel to be doing? Making up "excuses" to kill people?

No, being reckless and irresponsible in their response (I repeat for about the tenth time)
It's not road rage. It's COURTESY ENFORCEMENT.
 
TheSorcerer
Posts: 1003
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RE: Israel Bomb 'kills UN Observers'

Thu Jul 27, 2006 10:33 pm

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 114):
Or the USAF bombing the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade?

I somehow do doubt that Hizbollah was using the UN outpost for communications.  Wink
Another thing, i thought the missile into the chinese embassy was on purpose because the Serb military was using a room in the embassy for communications.

Dominic

[Edited 2006-07-27 15:42:23]
ALITALIA,All Landings In Torino, All Luggage In Athens ;)
 
windshear
Posts: 2268
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RE: Israel Bomb 'kills UN Observers'

Thu Jul 27, 2006 10:39 pm

Quoting Stormbringer (Reply 176):
No, being reckless and irresponsible in their response (I repeat for about the tenth time)

Ok well that can be debated...

But if you are a bit edgy over having to explain your self, then read below what you wrote, again my emphasis

Quoting Stormbringer (Reply 171):
Firing madly into a crowd and killing innocent people cannot be justified by claiming you were aiming at a criminal.

Boaz.
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
Sonic99
Posts: 625
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2001 8:39 am

RE: Israel Bomb 'kills UN Observers'

Thu Jul 27, 2006 11:41 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 163):
Israelis will NOT trust a kind of village-sized police-force.

Indeed. That's a big problem for the UN - support or respect for which is villified, particularly by the Bush administration, even though with a proper mandate some semblance of neutrality could no doubt be achieved. The Bush administration sees no benefit of the UN and would much rather dispense "justice" a la far west - shoot first and ask questions later. Or better in his case - shoot first and don't bother with questions because those take too much time and introduce nuance which makes any situation too complex for his comprehension. These comments aren't something made up overnight - a little research will reveal his track record over the past 5 1/2 years.

Quoting Frequentflyer (Reply 172):
Another example of UN impotence.



Quoting Windshear (Reply 173):
The UN have always been prevented in completing their tasks and do their job properly in Lebanon,

You're both quite right and there's a reason for it - because the UN observers and peacekeepers, UNIFIL in particular were rendered useless and toothless MOSTLY due to US recalcitrance (read: stubborn resistance) to providing the UN with a proper mandate to use appropriate force when necessary. The French refused to send their troops to the region as peacekeepers - reason?

Quote:
May 26, 2000 -- The chief of staff of the French armed forces, General Jean-Pierre Kelche said the UNFIL should also be given "rules of robust engagement" by the U.N. Security Council, Agence France-Presse (AFP) reported.

The UNFIL should be authorized to use force "in case of legitimate defense" to attain the goal of its mission, he was quoted as saying.

The general said the number of French soldiers to be sent to Lebanon as a reinforcement of the UNFIL has not been decided yet. Meanwhile, French Prime Minister Lionel Jospin said Wednesday that France is ready to join the U.N. peacekeeping in southern Lebanon, with the precondition that the security of peacekeepers must be guaranteed.



The original mandate of UNIFIL DID include the authorization of "use of force" but was rescinded following repeated US OBJECTIONS (!!!!) and thus UNIFIL never gained the appropriate means with which to separate either side.

Now there's something to chew on!

Something to tell your friends during a cocktail when they cleverly say that the UN has been present in Lebanon for XX number of years and did nothing. What will it do with no right to use force? Jab sticks at Hezbollah and tell them to move away? Use slingshots at Israeli planes that repeatedly violated Lebanese airspace since 2000?

Nice.

For some, however, it's always easier to spout factual comments without referencing reasons.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Israel Bomb 'kills UN Observers'

Thu Jul 27, 2006 11:47 pm

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 168):
Whether E.U., U.N. or NATO, the Israelis have to be included in the consultation
---
Don't forget the Syrians. I posted in the Tom Friedman thread that the last time this peacekeeping force in South Lebanon was tried, the result was the Marine Barracks bombing...

the US-forces simply were US-forces and NOT an international peace force and therefore by many perceived as an invasion-force. I in spite of some negative aspects then had some hopes nevertheless, and was disappointed A) to see how badly US-forces secured themselves against a most apparent threat, and B) how swiftly they after that attack got out

Quoting Windshear (Reply 169):
worse verses, and they are inciting.

worse ? not really, and in a more poetic language. inciting ? not more than those Ibrahim/Abraham things

Quoting Windshear (Reply 169):
How on earth can you use the words said to Abraham by G-d himself as a comparison to this political crisis??

why not ? they sound as if brought forward right now
 
Sonic99
Posts: 625
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2001 8:39 am

RE: Israel Bomb 'kills UN Observers'

Thu Jul 27, 2006 11:59 pm

Oh, and here's another very interesting reason why the US (under Bush) refused to support UNIFIL (2002) - his administration viewed support for UNIFIL as a bargaining chip in a debate whether or not the US could gain immunity for any of its military/civilian leaders from any prosecution by the World Court - threatening to scuttle UNIFIL altogether if they did not get their wish with the ICC (International Criminal Court).

http://www.forward.com/issues/2002/02.07.05/news4.html

The world is much more nuanced than one would believe - and that makes it difficult to view the world in black or white - like some of our members would like everyone to do. It is not as simple as that to demand ultimatums based on alliegiance for one side or another and certainly not appropriate to demand respect but shun criticism in the same breath. Thus I'll repeat my previous words:

If you view the world in such terms, I call you blind. If you support such views, I call you stupid. If you pursue such views - I call you dangerous and a menace.

[Edited 2006-07-27 17:04:28]
 
NAV20
Posts: 8453
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RE: Israel Bomb 'kills UN Observers'

Fri Jul 28, 2006 12:21 am

I suspect that the USA will experience great difficulty in assembling any kind of UN or NATO force for this purpose.

Partly that's a matter of public opinion. I can only speak for Australia, but opinion here, as far are I can judge, is wholly on the side of the people of the Lebanon. I haven't heard anyone in the last couple of weeks say a word in support of Israel; the people I meet express overwhelming sympathy for the people of the Lebanon, and a 'new' emotion - a developing disbelief, amounting almost to horror, at the sheer scale of the damage being done by the Israeli bombing campaign. As it happens I've seen destruction on that scale in the past; but then I'm pretty old  Smile. Younger people have never seen anything like it before.

Another factor, less well-known to the general public, is that of military capacity. Given that any threat to Australia would have to be seaborne, resources are rightly concentrated on naval and air force 'assets'; our standing army is small (only about two brigades of infantry, plus supporting arms). We already have troops committed to several peace-keeping tasks in our own region, plus troops in Iraq and Afghanistan; and I suspect that we also have special forces committed in other places, probably including Iran.

Finally, you can sense a kind of political weariness here, a feeling that a pattern is emerging. Bush, Condi, and their associates seem increasingly to be working their way through a list of countries, causing all sorts of trouble, biting off more than they can chew, and then appealing for help from 'willing hands' - always including the Commonwealth, mainly Britain, Australia, and Canada - to help clear up the mess that the USA itself has created.

I could be wrong. But ten bucks (Australian) says that Australia, anyway, won't be sending any of our already over-stretched servicemen to the Lebanon in a hurry.

Though perhaps if Bush and Condi suggested that we contributed to a peace-keeping force to bring ISRAEL into line, they'd get a better response from this hemisphere, in terms of public opinion anyway.
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
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RE: Israel Bomb 'kills UN Observers'

Fri Jul 28, 2006 1:05 am

Quoting Windshear (Reply 170):
but it is Hizbollah that is being targeted, where ever they are is a target, simple as that.

no, it was and is LEBANON that was/is targeted. Beirut Airport and Beirut Seaport and the highways out from Beirut to the airport and to Sa'ida, that is LEBANON. And at present it looks as if the Israeli forces were more successful in launching war against civilians and against U.N.-officers than against those who according to you are "targeted" .
 
AerospaceFan
Posts: 6990
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RE: Israel Bomb 'kills UN Observers'

Fri Jul 28, 2006 1:12 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 182):
meet express overwhelming sympathy for the people of the Lebanon, and a 'new' emotion - a developing disbelief, amounting almost to horror, at the sheer scale of the damage being done by the Israeli bombing campaign.

I agree that scale of devastation is horrific, and any civilian losses are tragic in nature. I don't know anyone who would argue otherwise.

I think that one must consider that the Allies, during World War II, engage in two very controversial campaigns that exceeded the destruction we see here: The firebombing of Dresden, and, thereafter, the nuclear destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. It is a matter of historical record that "total war" -- a recognized military doctrine -- has caused considerable civilian suffering. Whether these events translate well in every context is a matter for discussion.

[Edited 2006-07-27 18:13:46]
What's fair is fair.
 
semsem
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RE: Israel Bomb 'kills UN Observers'

Fri Jul 28, 2006 1:19 am

The BBC is suspected to be antisemitic and bigoted as their reporting is traditionally one sided and hostile.
What happened is a tragic accident and there will be a joint UN Israeli investigation.
Mr. Annan's accusation that the bombing was "deliberate" is a libelous.
Ever heard of "friendly fire?" Accidents happen and hopefully it will not happen again.

Rolfen the attack a few years ago which caused 100 casualties was also a tragedy and an accident. Hezbollah were firing from the UN facilities using their own people as human shields.

As to Rachel Corrie, it's not too smart to stand in front of a bulldozer. As to the British "war activist", it was not too smart to put himself in front of gun fire. That's like someone standing on a rail track and complaining they got run over.

What is the root cause of this? Simple: Shia Iran with the help of their Shia Lebanese brethren plan to destroy Israel and they have said so. We have a right to fight and defend ourselves.

[Edited 2006-07-27 18:35:52]
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
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RE: Israel Bomb 'kills UN Observers'

Fri Jul 28, 2006 1:47 am

Quoting Semsem (Reply 185):
The BBC is suspected to be antisemitic and bigoted as their reporting is traditionally one sided and hostile.

BBC is known to be objective, but fairly often is rather pro-Israeli

Quoting Semsem (Reply 185):
Mr. Annan's accusation that the bombing was "deliberate" is a libelous.

No, it was based on the statements of that Irish officer who phoned up the Israeli liaison officer at least 5 times and informed him, and some other circumstances. True, possibly a bit a fit of rage, but I would NOT talk about "libel", even if we might accept the accident-claim

Quoting Semsem (Reply 185):
a right to fight and defend ourselves.

depends on what is acceptable as "defence". To blockade an independent country, to damage airport and seaport and highways simply is NOT defence but clear and outright aggression. Even if you repeat your "defence" thing a thousand times.
 
frequentflyer
Posts: 708
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 3:22 am

RE: Israel Bomb 'kills UN Observers'

Fri Jul 28, 2006 1:49 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 180):
the US-forces simply were US-forces and NOT an international peace force and therefore by many perceived as an invasion-force.

If you follow that line, then it should have been the case for the same kinda bombing that occurred at the French barracks ("Drakkar") at about the same time. But were French troops really considered invaders or rather helpers to "peace"?

Quoting Sonic99 (Reply 181):
The world is much more nuanced than one would believe

Well that's a blessing... would be boring if it was not the case would it not..

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 182):
disbelief, amounting almost to horror, at the sheer scale of the damage being done by the Israeli bombing campaign.

Same here ; am not sure it was the best managed campaign for the IDF, neither that the US move to support it was the best political decision.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 183):
no, it was and is LEBANON that was/is targeted.

By proxy. I still believe that.

Quoting Semsem (Reply 185):
The BBC is suspected to be antisemitic

Just pick up more intellectually advanced arguments next time. That'll help the discussion.
Take off and live
 
AerospaceFan
Posts: 6990
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:43 am

RE: Israel Bomb 'kills UN Observers'

Fri Jul 28, 2006 1:50 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 186):
To blockade an independent country, to damage airport and seaport and highways simply is NOT defence but clear and outright aggression. Even if you repeat your "defence" thing a thousand times.

It's interesting that many in the Democratic Party, including former Secretary of State Albright, seem to disagree. Thus, in some ways, the position of the Bush Administration -- which has expressed official concern for the innocent victims of the Israeli campaign -- is actually closer to that of countries like France and even Britain, both of whom have called for an immediate ceasefire, than is the position of supporters of the former Clinton Administration.

The Chairman of the Democratic National Committee, Howard Dean, has even reportedly called the Iraqi Prime Minister an "anti-Semite" for failing to sufficiently condemn Hezbollah.^1 I have heard nothing from his office critical of Israeli actions.

If people think that the Bush policy is too pro-Israeli, they need only read about the positions of the Democrats of late.
___________________________

1. Source: http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...tory/0,20867,19936743-2703,00.html

[Edited 2006-07-27 18:58:49]
What's fair is fair.
 
semsem
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RE: Israel Bomb 'kills UN Observers'

Fri Jul 28, 2006 1:54 am

MEAVN when Hezbollah a Lebanese organisation allies itself with Iran that has threatened "genocide" against Israel and when a Lebanese organisation threatens to also destroy Israel, then Israel has no choice but to use preventive means to stop them.
We cannot be expected to allow a 2nd holocaust against our people.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Israel Bomb 'kills UN Observers'

Fri Jul 28, 2006 2:05 am

Quoting Frequentflyer (Reply 187):
at the French barracks ("Drakkar") at about the same time.

sorry, but where/what/when was "Drakkar" ?

Quoting Frequentflyer (Reply 187):
Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 183):
no, it was and is LEBANON that was/is targeted.
--
By proxy. I still believe that.

-
That way, you can justify almost anything. Please advise a day beforehand if the USA or Israel want to attack banks in Zurich "by proxy" for giving services to whomever --- my daily way to work goes closely by them !

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 188):
Howard Dean, has even reportedly called the Iraqi Prime Minister an "anti-Semite" for failing to sufficiently condemn Hezbollah.^

Howard Dean in a way is the US equivalent  hissyfit  to Mahmoud Ahmedinejad, and in a way not to be taken to seriously

Quoting Semsem (Reply 189):
to use preventive means to stop them.

the old rethorics to justify anything and everything. Just rubbish. You canNOT justify outright gross-style aggression by such rubbish.
 
AerospaceFan
Posts: 6990
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RE: Israel Bomb 'kills UN Observers'

Fri Jul 28, 2006 2:10 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 190):
Howard Dean in a way is the US equivalent  hissyfit  to Mahmoud Ahmedinejad, and in a way not to be taken to seriously

In a way, I agree! But I think that one also ought to read about the positions of certain other Democrats, such as the frequent Bush critic, U.S. Senator Charles Schumer of New York.

(Excerpt)

Quote:
"To create some moral equivalency between Israel's response to these rocket attacks and the terrorist attacks themselves is, in my opinion, wrong," Schumer said in a floor speech. "Every nation would respond with strength and do everything it could to eradicate the terrorists."

Source:

http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20060724/1013841.asp

Unlike Dean, Sen. Schumer actually wields real power and, I believe, voted as part of the unanimous majority supporting Israel in a recent nonbinding resolution passed in the United States Senate.

[Edited 2006-07-27 19:14:02]
What's fair is fair.
 
frequentflyer
Posts: 708
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 3:22 am

RE: Israel Bomb 'kills UN Observers'

Fri Jul 28, 2006 2:18 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 190):
Quoting Frequentflyer (Reply 187):
at the French barracks ("Drakkar") at about the same time.

sorry, but where/what/when was "Drakkar" ?

At about the same time and place (Beirut) of the bombing of the US barracks, the French troops barracks got the same treatment... their HQ was names "Drakkar" and sufferred heavy losses. Mitterrand, President at the time, ordered stikes on terrorist bases in East Lebanon from a French aircraft carrier off Beirut.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 190):
Quoting Frequentflyer (Reply 187):
Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 183):
no, it was and is LEBANON that was/is targeted.
--
By proxy. I still believe that.

-
That way, you can justify almost anything. Please advise a day beforehand if the USA or Israel want to attack banks in Zurich "by proxy" for giving services to whomever --- my daily way to work goes closely by them !

AVN, I am not justifying this, harming civilians is coward and makes me puke whatever their Nationality is. Am just saying I do not think, still, the IDF targeted civilians unless associated with hezb.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 190):
Quoting Semsem (Reply 189):
to use preventive means to stop them.

the old rethorics to justify anything and everything. Just rubbish. You canNOT justify outright gross-style aggression by such rubbish.

For once, and G-d knows it does not happen often, I agree with AVN!  Wink
Take off and live
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
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RE: Israel Bomb 'kills UN Observers'

Fri Jul 28, 2006 2:46 am

So the IDF is a bit accident prone and those who are killed are always asking for it. Well, that will be a nice encouraging background if Israel is serious about wanting to have an body of troops enforcing whatever imposition they have in mind for S Lebanon. Any trouble, WHACK, well it was not our fault.

Really, Olmert ought to grow up and accept responsibility in as best as he can imitate a gracious manner. If there WAS a problem with Hez in close proximity, the UN should have been warned to get out AND been permitted to get out. There seems no evidence that this ever happened. What does seem to be known is that Israel targeted the UN post for some hours before destroying it.

And the first story was Hez done it. Even at a time it was obvious that the final attack was an aerial bomb and AFAIK, Hez does not have the wherewithal to drop large calibre bombs. Then there were demands for Kofi Annan to apologise. It was not and never was Kofi who should have been apologising.

Not acknowledging a disaster just makes the situation worse. And all that in close proximity in time to two ambulances being hit, one straight through the cross on its roof. More accidents? Credibility is strained beyond belief. What is the story there, the ambulances were full of Hez?
 
AerospaceFan
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RE: Israel Bomb 'kills UN Observers'

Fri Jul 28, 2006 2:53 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 193):
there WAS a problem with Hez in close proximity, the UN should have been warned to get out AND been permitted to get out. There seems no evidence that this ever happened. What does seem to be known is that Israel targeted the UN post for some hours before destroying it.

Assuming that Israel did not provide this warning, I agree that the UN outpost should have been told to evacuate before any targeting of adjacent areas. Israel makes an effort to warn civilians to evacuate before striking what it believes are Hezbollah targets in Lebanon, so it would be the least it could do to warn the UN outpost, as well.
What's fair is fair.
 
andessmf
Posts: 5689
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 8:53 am

RE: Israel Bomb 'kills UN Observers'

Fri Jul 28, 2006 3:07 am

If you check the web site for UNIFIL (UN mission in Lebanon) press releases, you will notice that they have had many close calls for weeks already. Why the UN didnt get those members out previously is beyond me.

The one qoute from these press releases is the 'there were seven incidents of firing close to UN positions'. What exactly does this mean? Are they saying that Hezbollah is firing rockets very close to them?
 
LY744
Posts: 5185
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 11:55 pm

RE: Israel Bomb 'kills UN Observers'

Fri Jul 28, 2006 3:32 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 193):
So the IDF is a bit accident prone and those who are killed are always asking for it.

It kind of comes with the territory when you spend YEARS upon YEARS fighting an enemy that constantly and shamelessly hides behind civilians.


LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
frequentflyer
Posts: 708
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 3:22 am

RE: Israel Bomb 'kills UN Observers'

Fri Jul 28, 2006 3:57 am

Quoting LY744 (Reply 196):
YEARS fighting an enemy that constantly and shamelessly hides behind civilians.

I agree.

But then what do you do?

Do you kill them altogether?
Take off and live
 
WSOY
Posts: 822
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2006 10:24 pm

RE: Israel Bomb 'kills UN Observers'

Fri Jul 28, 2006 3:59 am

Quoting BCNGRO (Reply 9):
The UN observers were Austrian, Canadian, Chinese and Finnish nationals. According to UN sources the attack was "apparently deliberate".

The commander of the Finnish UN force reported in the news here that he was personally present when the Israelis were asked (or "ordered", he actually corrected) to stop the bombing. "Will comply" was the answer, but the bombing went on for hours nevertheless. Nice work. I bet the Israeli government made a lot of friends this time as well!
"Nukkuessa tulee nälkä" (Nipsu)
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
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RE: Israel Bomb 'kills UN Observers'

Fri Jul 28, 2006 4:58 am

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 195):
you will notice that they have had many close calls for weeks already. Why the UN didnt get those members out previously is beyond me.

The one qoute from these press releases is the 'there were seven incidents of firing close to UN positions'. What exactly does this mean? Are they saying that Hezbollah is firing rockets very close to them?

-
A) the UN observers are to stay even in difficult circumstances. They do so in Korea, and do so in other places. They are NOT just to be gotten out, they are to persevere and to do the observing.
-
B) they were NOT saying that Hezbollah was firing rockets close to them, they were diplomatically indicating that Israel was firing very close to them !

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