cmchardyfl
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Who Will Pay The Bill For A380 Airport Development

Mon Jul 22, 2002 10:40 am

Since we are on the "A380 Ready" subject, I was just wandering who is footing the bill for all the airport development to accomodate this aircraft. When you think about it, its not really an airports problem. Its the airlines that want to buy these huge aircraft and fly them into the major airports. If an airport does not want to foot the bill to accomodate these aircraft they dont have to. The airlines will fly into the airport regardless, even if it means they have to use smaller equipment. Its the airlines that lose the most money by not flying into an airport that is a busy route.

For an airline like FedEx, of course they will be paying for the development of their hubs and taxiways in order to accomodate the A380. But what about airports like JFK? There are no airlines with a hub there that will be buying the A380, so who will foot the bill to develop the airport. If JFK does not want to spend the money to develop the airport it doesnt have to, the airlines will still fly there regardless, just using smaller aircraft.

So after blabbing on for so long, is it the airports who are paying for airport development for the A380, or the airlines?

Thanks for any replies

Cheers
Chris
 
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RayChuang
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RE: Who Will Pay The Bill For A380 Airport Development

Mon Jul 22, 2002 10:58 am

I believe the Port Authority of New York/New Jersey already has money budgeted to modify the JFK international terminals to support the A380--after all, we are talking the possibility of AF, EK, LH and VS flying to JFK using the A380 by the middle of 2007.

This is a major problem at LAX, since the current Bradley International Terminal already has trouble handling 747-400's and it would require expensive modification of that terminal to handle the A380. Also, the southern east-west runway at LAX needs to have the Sepulveda Boulevard underpass strengthened so it can handle the weight of the A380.

As for SFO, the only improvements needed are modified taxiways on Runways 28L/28R to handle the A380. The new International Terminal at SFO already has A380-compatible gates.

For SIN, the new Terminal 3 that will open next year will include A380-compatible gates.

For HKG, they plan to modify a number of gates so it can handle the A380.

It'll be very interesting to see how NRT upgrades their terminals to handle the A380, given that NRT will likely be a very popular A380 destination.
 
slawko
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RE: Who Will Pay The Bill For A380 Airport Development

Mon Jul 22, 2002 11:05 am

Am I missing something? I thought that Airbus and the major airlines of the world spent millions on developing the 380 to operate within existing airport layouts. Granted there will always be some changes that need to be made to certain facilities, but I was under the impression the the A380 was designed with current airport layouts and sizes in mind...
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
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RayChuang
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RE: Who Will Pay The Bill For A380 Airport Development

Mon Jul 22, 2002 11:11 am

While Airbus has tried to make the A380 as compatible the type of gate operations done for the 747-400, you still have to consider these factors:

1. The wider wingspan of the A380 means current gates might not fit the A380. This is why when SFO's new International Terminal was built they built four 80 x 80 meter box gates (two each at Concourses A and G).

2. The ground turning radius of the A380 is still not fully known. Just to be safe, taxiways may have to be widened to allow safe ground taxiing.

3. The weight of the plane (over 1 million pounds) is going to put a huge stress on the runway and taxiway surface. That's why LAX may have to reinforce the Sepulveda Boulevard underpass over the southern east-west runway for same A380 operations--something that won't be cheap.
 
Rai
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RE: Who Will Pay The Bill For A380 Airport Development

Mon Jul 22, 2002 11:11 am

Ray is correct. The Port Authority is spending the money to upgrade JFK's capabilities to handle the A380. T4, T1 are currently capable of handling the aircraft and the new T8 (American Airlines Terminal) will be able to handle it as well. I am not sure what will happen with the other terminals though.

Right now, the PA is working on runways 4R/22L and 4L/22R to make them A380 "blast proof". This work should be completed by the end of the year. The have already completed the work on the 13/31 runways.

I believe the PA are also making adjustments to Newark airport as well, but not sure in what form. Terminal B should be able to handle the A380.
 
Rai
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RE: Who Will Pay The Bill For A380 Airport Development

Mon Jul 22, 2002 11:14 am

Ray, you can add SQ to the list of A380 operators at JFK.
 
wolfpacker
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RE: Who Will Pay The Bill For A380 Airport Development

Mon Jul 22, 2002 11:26 am

As to who will be paying for the A380, it will be the flying public. The airport authorities may be paying for the upgrades but they will pass that on to the airlines in the form of higher landing fees. The airlines will pass that on to the consumer in the form of higher ticket prices. In the end the consumer pays for everything.
 
artsyman
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RE: Who Will Pay The Bill For A380 Airport Development

Mon Jul 22, 2002 11:29 am

I am more interested to see them do an evac of all passengers in under 90 seconds, that will be impressive. They will need to have a lifesize version of that machine that fires tennis balls at you, firing people out the doors at a rate of about 7 people per second. Never mind the ones that will be about 90 feet in the air coming from the second deck....

Jeremy
 
Notar520AC
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RE: Who Will Pay The Bill For A380 Airport Development

Mon Jul 22, 2002 2:40 pm

As far as airport expansions, Airbus is trying to make the A380 as current-airport-friendly as possible, trying to use existing equipment at the airports. But, an airplane this big will need a "few" exceptions!
BMW - The Ultimate Driving Machine
 
hkgspotter1
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RE: Who Will Pay The Bill For A380 Airport Development

Mon Jul 22, 2002 3:00 pm

Hong Kong may need some minor changes but to my understanding 90% is already made with the A380 in mind.
 
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RayChuang
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RE: Who Will Pay The Bill For A380 Airport Development

Mon Jul 22, 2002 8:52 pm

I think HKG will likely start modifying some of their gates to be A380 compatible for this reason: the increasing possibility that JL may buy the A380 later this decade. This is due to the fact NRT-HKG is a very popular route for both tourism and business from Japan. Anyway, HKG does need A380-compatible gates because SQ has confirmed they will fly their flagship route (SQ 002 SIN-HKG-SFO and SQ 001 SFO-HKG-SIN) using the A380 shortly after SQ starts SIN-LHR operations with the plane.  Smile
 
EGGD
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RE: Who Will Pay The Bill For A380 Airport Development

Mon Jul 22, 2002 8:53 pm

If government owned airports used taxpayers money to subsidize the improvement for airports, you shouldn't worry... your money goes to much more unimportant things than that!!!
 
Dinkis
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RE: Who Will Pay The Bill For A380 Airport Development

Mon Jul 22, 2002 9:11 pm

Well everyone knows that it will be at great cost to make airports suitable for the A380. I say that the airports will up the landing charges and charge a tax like fee to airlines using A380s in there airport. But I don't think many airports are going to rush into changing there airport layouts just right away because there is already a few airports able to handle the A380 like LHR.
 
jwenting
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RE: Who Will Pay The Bill For A380 Airport Development

Mon Jul 22, 2002 9:18 pm

In the end, it will all be paid from taxes and tickets sold...
In other words, WE (and I mean all people living in countries where the aircraft are operated to or from) will pay.
I wish I were flying
 
Klaus
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RayChuang

Mon Jul 22, 2002 9:44 pm

RayChuang: 1. The wider wingspan of the A380 means current gates might not fit the A380. This is why when SFO's new International Terminal was built they built four 80 x 80 meter box gates (two each at Concourses A and G).

The 80x80m format predates the launch of the A380. So many airports already have sufficient facilities or have been planning to upgrade to it.


RayChuang: 2. The ground turning radius of the A380 is still not fully known. Just to be safe, taxiways may have to be widened to allow safe ground taxiing.

The specs have been public for several months, already. Just download the "Ground Maneuvering" PDF document from Airbus here.


RayChuang: 3. The weight of the plane (over 1 million pounds) is going to put a huge stress on the runway and taxiway surface.

The A380 has four more wheels and an increased wheelbase relative to the 747 to distribute the higher weight over a larger area. So the pavement loading is comparable.


RayChuang: That's why LAX may have to reinforce the Sepulveda Boulevard underpass over the southern east-west runway for same A380 operations--something that won't be cheap.

That´s something entirely different. Bridges like that depend on the total weight, not on pavement loading.
 
Klaus
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RE: Who Will Pay The Bill For A380 Airport Development

Mon Jul 22, 2002 9:54 pm

By the way: Airport update costs should be seen in the context of rising demand for capacity. So there´s no "additional cost" for the A380 when you´re looking at the alternative of building entirely new runways or even additional airports for a rising number of smaller planes. That would be a lot more expensive!
 
Tom in NO
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RE: Who Will Pay The Bill For A380 Airport Development

Mon Jul 22, 2002 11:57 pm

Airport capital construction projects can be paid one of four ways (at least in the US):

1) FAA Airport Improvement Program (AIP) grant monies: paid for by the federal government's airport grants program. FAA usually pays either 75% or 90% depending on the project, airport operator pays the other 25% or 10%.

2) Airport operator foots the entire bill through user fees. Now then, the airport will then pass the costs of the construction project on to the airport tenants (airlines, FBO's, concessionaires), depending again on the type of project. The tenants will naturally pass these costs on to the traveling public. So, as was stated earlier, the passenger/user ends up paying the airport's percentage, and for that matter, the federal government's percentage as well, of the project.

3) Passenger Facility Charges: tax paid on each flight segment.

4) Airport Revenue Bonds

This topic was covered recently in this forum, here's the link:

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/824801

Tom in NO (at MSY, in airport management)

"The criminal ineptitude makes you furious"-Bruce Springsteen, after seeing firsthand the damage from Hurricane Katrina
 
prebennorholm
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RE: Who Will Pay The Bill For A380 Airport Development

Tue Jul 23, 2002 5:11 am

All large airports are constantly being rebuilt and enlarged. Has there ever been one large airport which wasn't a constant construction site during the last 30-40 years? Runways, taxiways, gates, everything.

It is a question about planning. There is no "special bill" to be paid. There is no significant difference between making new facilities for one A380 or two B777s which will pay the same landing fees.

And there is plenty of time. Ten years or so will pass until this world has a hundred A380s around, and even at that time some airports may have chosen to have only "temporary" A380 facilities as in the beginning of the B747 era 30 years ago.

It's a fairly long term planning job exactly as when loads of DC-3s were succeeded by loads of DC-6s and Connies fifty years ago.

And of course all that constant rebuilding has always been and will always be paid by the passengers in the end.

Air traffic may not grow 4, 5 or 6 times in volume during the next 25 years as it did during the previous 25 years. But even if it only doubles during that period - to the time when the number of operational A380s reach similar level as present B747s, then all major airports will during that period in any case have passed through several extensive expansion plans.

At a few public owned airports there will be some crying for expansion money blamed on the A380 - same as when the B747 was introduced, and to an even larger extend when the B707 and DC-8 were introduced. That's normal when such things become politics instead of ordinary business.

So much about airport facility costs.

Another thing is landing slots. On congested airports, where landing slots are a scarce and expensive property, there every A380 operation will, everything else equal, easy the situation and lower the price on landing slots. That is one thing which will lower the price for all passengers, not just passengers flying on A380.

Just imagine the opposite situation at present today, that traffic was the same as today, but the size of all airliner only half, and therefore double number of flights. At many airports the landing slots would be an extremely expensive asset to be traded among airliners, and the astronomically high slot prices would automatically be transferred to the fares.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
prebennorholm
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RE: Who Will Pay The Bill For A380 Airport Development

Tue Jul 23, 2002 5:35 am

There may be one special one special American problem.

If the FAA grants money to for instance a federal government's airport expansion program, which includes making A380 facilities, then it would be easy to imagine that there would be a terrible whining from Boeing workers' unions, and Boeing management too. And it could become a serious political issue which naturally wasn't present at previous programs for the 707/DC-8/747.

It would be much less politically controversial to grant the same money for double number of B777s.

But that's an American problem only, which doesn't affect the rest of the world at all.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
srbmod
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RE: Who Will Pay The Bill For A380 Airport Development

Tue Jul 23, 2002 7:36 am

I think airports that are among those scheduled to receive A380 flights should impose a 'Very Large Aircraft (VLA) Tax' on those airlines that fly it into their airports. The airlines would be paying this tax to help repay the loans and/or bonds that were needed to make the needed modifications in order to handle the A380. Airports are going to have to have at least two jetways on each A380 gate in order to speed up the boarding process, new ground equipment will have to be obtained, and even the ramp areas may need to be strengthened in order to handle the A380.
 
Klaus
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Srbmod

Wed Jul 24, 2002 3:05 am

Srbmod: I think airports that are among those scheduled to receive A380 flights should impose a 'Very Large Aircraft (VLA) Tax' on those airlines that fly it into their airports.

They will have to pay higher fees anyway. It´s standard practice.

And it´s still more efficient than two or three smaller planes - for both sides.

All the additional investment pales compared to the alternatives.
 
srbmod
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RE: Who Will Pay The Bill For A380 Airport Development

Wed Jul 24, 2002 3:15 am

I was meaning an additional tax in addition to the higher landing fees.
 
brons2
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RE: Who Will Pay The Bill For A380 Airport Development

Wed Jul 24, 2002 3:24 am

Srbmod, to expand on that, how many jetways do you think an average A380 will need? We are talking about a MASSIVE amount of people getting off an airplane!

Here in AUS, some of the Southwest gates have "dual-boarding", a single jetway that splits and goes to both the front and the back of the plane for boarding speed and convenience.

I can see the A380 having this arrangement as well but with 2 jetways, each jetway splitting in two and going to the front and the back of the plane. 1 jetway would serve the upper deck and one jetway the lower deck.
Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
 
caravelle
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RE: Who Will Pay The Bill For A380 Airport Development

Wed Jul 24, 2002 3:30 am

Prebennorholm, your comments here are always appreciated. They're to the point, factual, and impartial.If I at all subscribed to such an idea, I'd probably put you on my respected users' list. I learn a few things from you, though I mostly read, and hardly ever post.

- caravelle
Trains and boats and planes....
 
Leezyjet
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RE: Who Will Pay The Bill For A380 Airport Development

Wed Jul 24, 2002 6:04 am

I saw some of the plans/artists impressions of the LHR T3 expansion project the other day. There is going to be an awful lot of work going on in the next few years. They are pulling down the Pier that serves the Mike and Juliet cul-de-sacs and building a new one that will be able to accomodate 4 A380's on it, or 6-8 smaller a/c. It will also be joined onto T2, so the mike cul-de-sac will eventually be no more, half of it has gone already with the construction of the T5 tunnel linking the central area to the T5 site that has been under construction for about 10-12 months.

They are also making the new extension at the end of pier 5 A380 compatible, and work will be starting on the taxiways soon, think the runways were done/are being done at the moment, as 27R/09L has already been resurfaced and 27L/09R is being done at the moment so I would have thought they would have been strengthened whilst it was being done.

The J15/K14 gates will also be demolished to make the taxiway wider for the A380. They are going to build the new control tower where stand L24 is at the moment and are putting a glass tube ontop of pier 5 (should give some gr8 views) to allow the arriving and departing pax to be segregated.

BAA are paying for the lot.

 Smile
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