AR385
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RE: Tenerife 1977 - Why 747 Service To Las Palmas?

Sat Aug 01, 2015 10:55 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 42):
That would still not prevent nonsense like this form occurring:

Maybe. But I still am very interested in knowing wether it was that accident that resulted in that rule. I+´m sure I read it somewhere, But I am not sure.
 
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RE: Tenerife 1977 - Why 747 Service To Las Palmas?

Sat Aug 01, 2015 11:25 am

Quoting Buyantukhaa (Reply 34):
Surely they fly out of AMS not FRA...

Oops.
 
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RE: Tenerife 1977 - Why 747 Service To Las Palmas?

Sat Aug 01, 2015 11:29 am

Quoting factsonly (Reply 33):

Stand corrected on the -200 model. However it was noted back then that Las Palmas was used as a fuel stop. Most African countries were not allowing overflight on routes to South Africa. As such airlines had to route around the coast to fly there. at 6900nm still air range and the heat/Altitude at Johannesburg with the old engines hot/high performance then they would need fuel to get a usable load on the route.
 
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RE: Tenerife 1977 - Why 747 Service To Las Palmas?

Sat Aug 01, 2015 11:53 am

Does anyone have any background on the intended cruise? Which line/route? Did they bed up still going or was it cancelled or delayed because of the accident?
 
factsonly
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RE: Tenerife 1977 - Why 747 Service To Las Palmas?

Sat Aug 01, 2015 12:10 pm

Quoting rbavfan (Reply 52):
Stand corrected on the -200 model. However it was noted back then that Las Palmas was used as a fuel stop. Most African countries were not allowing overflight on routes to South Africa. As such airlines had to route around the coast to fly there. at 6900nm still air range and the heat/Altitude at Johannesburg with the old engines hot/high performance then they would need fuel to get a usable load on the route.

I am very sorry, but this is again incorrect information.

Only South African Airways - as a representative of the then apartheid regime - was not permitted to overfly other African nations. The airline was forced to circumvent the African continent, flying over the Atlantic and refuelled in SAL or sometimes Las Palmas. The airline adopted the B747SP to introduce non-stop service to LHR and other European cities.

Apart from SAA, all other airlines were perfectly able to overfly African nations on their way to the Republic of South Africa. Most European airlines operated EU-NBO-JNB and return, overflying most of the African continent. But EU-KAN-JNB and EU-FIH-JNB were also operated.

Remember that Rhodesia, Namibia and some smaller states were friendly with South Africa and permitted SAA overflight.
 
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RE: Tenerife 1977 - Why 747 Service To Las Palmas?

Sat Aug 01, 2015 12:26 pm

Quoting Buyantukhaa (Reply 34):
Even KLM with their 747-100's was 4697nm from Frankfurt.

Surely they fly out of AMS not FRA...

KLM's B742 - PH-BUF operated to Tenerife from AMS on the day of the accident.

However KLM's B742 were regulars at FRA in those days, as most airlines operated multi-stop routes.

KLM operated B742s from FRA to:

- FRA-DXB-SIN-SYD-MEL v.v.
- FRA-DXB-BKK-SIN-JKT v.v

Just as Lufthansa operated B742 from AMS to LAX 4x/week in the 70s and 80s.

[Edited 2015-08-01 05:28:41]
 
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RE: Tenerife 1977 - Why 747 Service To Las Palmas?

Sat Aug 01, 2015 12:35 pm

Quoting aa87 (Thread starter):
I'm wondering if anyone knows why PA and KLM had 747 service to Las Palmas ?
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 46):
Tere's a Sterlng Caravelle and a CV990 wih must be Spntax visible in that pictre. The first a/c behind the 747 is a 707

You see a Scanair DC-8-55, Conair 720, Aviaco DC-8-50... etc

At the time both KLM and SAS used 747-200B:s every week on charters to Las Palmas. Pan Am was a one off charter.

[Edited 2015-08-01 05:37:25]
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RE: Tenerife 1977 - Why 747 Service To Las Palmas?

Sat Aug 01, 2015 12:46 pm

Quoting rbavfan (Reply 19):
Las Palmas was a fuel stop for most carriers during the 70's in route to southern Africa. Stopping for fuel allowed for greater cargo loads or just because they needed it to fly the route. the 747 of 1970 did not have the range of the 747-400/747-8 series.

This is not true. South African stopped at the Island Sal and some flights at LPA since they were not allowed to fly over the mainland of Africa. Most european Carriers stopped elsewhere like for instance Nairobi.
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RE: Tenerife 1977 - Why 747 Service To Las Palmas?

Sat Aug 01, 2015 1:08 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 39):
Also charters were not subject to a lot of the strict airline pricing regulations that scheduled flights had during that era, so in many cases they could fill up 707s with bargain hunters.

This led to various dubious packaging of charters with $1 fees to join affiliated "cultural appreciation societies" that allowed one to access such charters.

Ref: http://news.google.com/newspapers?ni...IBAJ&pg=2360,5673536&hl=en

Note I am NOT saying that's what happened in the tragic accident, I'm just responding to why the Canaries supported 747 service.

Canaries was the major holiday destination for europeans Before travels to for instance Thailand became frequent. Gran Canaria was the major destination during the Winter season and Palma during summers. All flights back then were IT-charters. Airlines were not allowed to sell just seats back then. From Stockholm you had two SAS 747-200B:s every saturday and one every sunday during Winters. Scanair also had several DC-8 departures from both Stockholm and Gothenburg. SAS also flew 747 to LPA from GOT at the time. Tourism to Gran Canaria could easily support this traffic back then.

[Edited 2015-08-01 06:10:43]

[Edited 2015-08-01 06:12:18]
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RE: Tenerife 1977 - Why 747 Service To Las Palmas?

Sat Aug 01, 2015 2:47 pm

Quoting aa87 (Reply 26):
Interesting, so the Canary Islands were clearly very popular destinations. Has anyone here been there recently ? does this tragedy still hang over the islands ?

The Canaries are still popular, for us here in northern Europe the islands are the closest place to get some sun in winter months. Me and my family have been there numerous times, the tragedy is just a distant memory there, it's understandable the locals who remember it don't like to bring it up, not with tourists atleast.

Also Finnair used to send widebodies to the Canaries, their MD-11 charter version had 407 seats. Later they used A343, nowadays A321ER only.


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RE: Tenerife 1977 - Why 747 Service To Las Palmas?

Sat Aug 01, 2015 3:18 pm

Quoting HELyes (Reply 59):
Quoting aa87 (Reply 26):Interesting, so the Canary Islands were clearly very popular destinations. Has anyone here been there recently ? does this tragedy still hang over the islands ?
The Canaries are still popular, for us here in northern Europe the islands are the closest place to get some sun in winter months. Me and my family have been there numerous times, the tragedy is just a distant memory there, it's understandable the locals who remember it don't like to bring it up, not with tourists atleast.

Also Finnair used to send widebodies to the Canaries, their MD-11 charter version had 407 seats. Later they used A343, nowadays A321ER only.

Finnair used DC-10-30 on flights to Las Palmas Before this. By the way the Airports name has Always until recently been Las Palmas. The name change to Gran Canaria was just some years ago.

I have also been to Gran Canaria many times.

In 1977 the following Airlines flew from Stockholm to Las Palmas:

SAS (747-200B, DC-10-30 and DC-8-63) - on behalf of Scanair
Scanair (DC-8-62, -55)
Spantax (DC-8-61 and CV-990A)
Maersk Air (Boeing 720)
Sterling Airways (727-200 Advanced)
Aviaco (DC-8)

When it comes to 747:s regularly at LPA I Think it was Condor, KLM and SAS only...
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RE: Tenerife 1977 - Why 747 Service To Las Palmas?

Sat Aug 01, 2015 3:45 pm

Quoting Navigator (Reply 60):
Finnair used DC-10-30 on flights to Las Palmas

Oh yes forgot DC-10, was used to Tenerife too. Loved the Moomin version back then  
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RE: Tenerife 1977 - Why 747 Service To Las Palmas?

Sat Aug 01, 2015 4:46 pm

Quoting Navigator (Reply 60):
Finnair used DC-10-30 on flights to Las Palmas

Yes, and TFN, too. I flew to TFN in December 1977(HEL-TFN), about 8 months after the disaster. The flight there was an AY DC-8-62, return flight was with their DC-10-30.
The were no signs whatsoever of the disaster. Everything was business as usual. I remember it very well as I expected still to see something. Last time I visited TFN was in 2001, took a Binter Canarias flight to the island of La Palma -a great place to visit too btw, somehow off the beaten track.
 
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RE: Tenerife 1977 - Why 747 Service To Las Palmas?

Sat Aug 01, 2015 4:48 pm

Quoting Ned Kelly (Reply 45):

Thanks for the photo, It does look around the right time given the colour schemes and the wreckage at the front is a bit of a giveaway! Just to chuck a spanner in the works, any idea of the exact date this photo was taken, could it possibly be that this photo was when the airport reopened to arriving traffic?

That photo reveals the traffic that was left just after the crash. I must have been a couple of days after the crash.
As I said before, that 747 and that L011 were bound for TFN, not diverted. (The L1011 was regular visitor in TFN, the Sabena 747 was unusual; probably the first time.)

The airport didn't reopen after all that wreckage was retired. (Just look in other photos where that wreckage was lying and you will see why).

There's footage in Internet revealing (at a glance, but you can see most of them), the aircraft that were in TFN the moment of the crash.

[Edited 2015-08-01 09:51:20]

[Edited 2015-08-01 09:51:54]
variety is the spice of life; that's what made the "old times" so good
 
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RE: Tenerife 1977 - Why 747 Service To Las Palmas?

Sat Aug 01, 2015 5:33 pm

Quoting Ned Kelly (Reply 43):
I remember seeing a picture of the line up of the aircraft stuck on the ramp for a few days after the accident. I always recall that I remember seeing a British Airtours (Charter arm of BA) 707-436 and a Sabena (may have been a Sobelair) 707-329, don't recall seeing a BA L10 or an SN 747, but I am happy to be corrected on this. Someone once (maybe even on this site) gave a full list of aircraft and registrations of those aircraft stuck at TFN.

The complete list must be very difficult to be available, unless someone belonging to the airport those days.

From the data I have collected, the aircraft that remained on the ramp after the track, were

Aviaco DC-8-50 (EC-CQM, almost sure)
Sterling Caravelle
Hapag-Lloyd 727-200
Scanair DC-8-50
Conair 720
Sabena 747-100
British Airways L-1011
Iberia DC-9
Iberia F-27 (Maybe a couple of them)

The supposed SN 707 was the 747 seen, the Airtours 707 almost sure wasn't such, but the BAW L-1011 (flying for Airtours), and almost convinced there was not a Spantax CV-990 at that moment.

In some footage previous to the crash from that day, I did see a Spantax DC-7, but I think it left before the crash, as it was parked very near the Scanair and the Conair, that I think should visible in the photo if still parked.
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RE: Tenerife 1977 - Why 747 Service To Las Palmas?

Sat Aug 01, 2015 5:59 pm

Maybe what they think is a Hapag Lloyd 727-200 is actually a Sterling Airways Boeing 727-200 Advcd. You can see the nose in the beginning of this video. You also see SATA:s DC-8-50 and a Braathens SAFE 737-200

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0YGeUzBaYE

SATA and Braathens left Before the accident

[Edited 2015-08-01 11:00:54]

[Edited 2015-08-01 11:03:58]
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iberiadc852
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RE: Tenerife 1977 - Why 747 Service To Las Palmas?

Sat Aug 01, 2015 11:04 pm

Quoting Navigator (Reply 65):
Maybe what they think is a Hapag Lloyd 727-200 is actually a Sterling Airways Boeing 727-200 Advcd. You can see the nose in the beginning of this video. You also see SATA:s DC-8-50 and a Braathens SAFE 737-200

No, the Hapag-Lloyd is clearly seen in this photo. which is part of that video, as it was posted by me, so also I was aware the Sterling and the other two aircraft left before the crash.




But watching the photo more carefully:

1) There seems to be another 727 behind the Hapag-Lloyd.
2) There seems to be a Spantax CV-990 (You can see the stripes of the Spanish flag; I think there is no other option for that tail)
3) There seems to be more than one 707-720 with dark tail. Could be British Airtours, even Sabena, or even Conair
4) And it also seems some of those aircraft departed before the crash, as I find impossible they had left after, with still the KLM wreckage on the runway.

Regards
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RE: Tenerife 1977 - Why 747 Service To Las Palmas?

Sun Aug 02, 2015 7:46 am

Yes I see the Hapag Lloyd Boeing 727-200 in this frame  
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RE: Tenerife 1977 - Why 747 Service To Las Palmas?

Sun Aug 02, 2015 7:00 pm

I have been a regular all my life at Tenerife (TFN and TFS) and Gran Canaria with over twenty return trips from UK/Ireland to the Canary Islands.

I flew LGW to TFS on British Airtours Tristar G-BBAE as recent as December 1994, my only ever wide body flight to Canaries.

Simply put, the Canary Islands are the only place in Europe where you can go on holiday in mid winter (Dec+Jan) and still expect to find beach weather. The Canaries would have been (and still are) to Europe what the Hawaiian Islands or Florida would have been to the colder northern states and Canada ie. a very popular winter sunshine destination.

Almost all British and Irish mainline airports support flights throughout the winter to at least TFS and LPA. Belfast BFS has a choice of three airlines through the winter to Canaries. The south coast of the island of Tenerife is now a massive metropolis with hotels to suit all budgets from cheap to some of the most luxurious resort type hotels in Europe. Most people one meets in the UK who go abroad on holidays will at one time have been to at least one of the Canary Islands.

The Boeing 727-200 which crashed into high ground on descent into Tenerife (TFN I believe?) was Dan Air London's G-BDAN). Terrain does rise very steeply from the coast with the central volcanic peak of Mount Teide (the highest peak on Spanish territory) rising to 3,718m (over 12 thousand feet). Extra care must be taken when descending into both TFS and TFN at night or IMC.

Wide bodies can still be seen at TFN with Iberia A346 and A330 fairly frequent occurrences, plenty of photos on this site. Also TFS has seen Transaero Boeing 747, Aeroflot A333, Thomas Cook A332, Thomas Cook Scandinavia A332, Thomson B763, Arke B763 etc in recent times. I'd be surprised if there haven't also been Thomson and Arke B788 thought haven't personally seen them.

In that last photo, has anyone figured out which aircraft is taxying out in the background? At first glance I thought a Boeing 747, but absence of body gear rules that out. It must just be a DC-8 and that looks like Swissair tail logo.
 
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RE: Tenerife 1977 - Why 747 Service To Las Palmas?

Sun Aug 02, 2015 7:10 pm

Quoting awthompson (Reply 68):
In that last photo, has anyone figured out which aircraft is taxying out in the background?

That is the SATA DC-8, I believe.
 
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RE: Tenerife 1977 - Why 747 Service To Las Palmas?

Sun Aug 02, 2015 10:11 pm

Quoting modernart (Reply 69):
Quoting awthompson (Reply 68):In that last photo, has anyone figured out which aircraft is taxying out in the background?
That is the SATA DC-8, I believe.

Yes, thats the one.

And to the list of widebodies at TFS you can add:

Thomas Cook Scandinavia A333 and TUIfly Nordic 767-300ER. And Condor is most certainly frequent with widebodes  
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dare100em
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RE: Tenerife 1977 - Why 747 Service To Las Palmas?

Mon Aug 03, 2015 8:23 am

Quoting awthompson (Reply 68):
I have been a regular all my life at Tenerife (TFN and TFS) and Gran Canaria with over twenty return trips from UK/Ireland to the Canary Islands.

I flew LGW to TFS on British Airtours Tristar G-BBAE as recent as December 1994, my only ever wide body flight to Canaries.

Simply put, the Canary Islands are the only place in Europe where you can go on holiday in mid winter (Dec+Jan) and still expect to find beach weather. The Canaries would have been (and still are) to Europe what the Hawaiian Islands or Florida would have been to the colder northern states and Canada ie. a very popular winter sunshine destination.

Almost all British and Irish mainline airports support flights throughout the winter to at least TFS and LPA. Belfast BFS has a choice of three airlines through the winter to Canaries. The south coast of the island of Tenerife is now a massive metropolis with hotels to suit all budgets from cheap to some of the most luxurious resort type hotels in Europe. Most people one meets in the UK who go abroad on holidays will at one time have been to at least one of the Canary Islands.

Like stated from many here the Canarian Ilands are still very popular. In fact i think the travel is now at least 3 times the amount of the 70s. Mostly Germans, UK, Dutch and Scandinavian Countrys. I've been ther 3 times with my parentes and 2 times with my wife/family since about 2000.

For Tenerife in our days 90% of all charter flights only go to Tenerife sur. All the new resorts are located in the south (Playa the Amaricas, Costa Adeje ...). The absolute bulk is done with A320/321/737 today - but with very high frequencies at peak times.
 
skbun
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Re: Tenerife 1977 - Why 747 Service To Las Palmas?

Mon Jun 27, 2016 5:12 pm

Also does anyone know how long the runway was out of use and how long the stranded aircraft were at TFN. I was thinking perhaps they got a dispensation for using the taxiway to get airborne.


Reports say that TFN was closed to regular traffic for three days after the crash. From The Naples Daily News, March 30, 1977 ( https://www.newspapers.com/image/21933329/ ):

One of the survivors of Sunday's plane crash in the Canary Islands died Tuesday night on a mercy night to the United States for specialized burn treatment. The Air Force "flying hospital" carrying 53 survivors and the latest victim arrived at McGuire Air Force Base early today.
...
Los Rodeos airport reopened today for a small plane shuttle service although big jets still cannot land.


As implied above, it does appear that a USAF C130 was taking off and landing at TFN on the 29th in an emergency airlift capacity to ferry victims. See http://cdnc.ucr.edu/cgi-bin/cdnc?a=d&d=DS19770329.2.2 .
 
teneriffe77
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Re: Tenerife 1977 - Why 747 Service To Las Palmas?

Tue Jun 28, 2016 3:06 am

Those weren't the last planes to be lost at TFN as less than a year later a SABENA 707 undershot the runway causing the nose gear to collapse and the plane burned out fortunatly w/ no one getting hurt
https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 19780215-1
 
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Re: Tenerife 1977 - Why 747 Service To Las Palmas?

Tue Jun 28, 2016 8:25 am

Topic locked, no need to kick an old discussion.
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