Search found 187 matches

by bcbhokie
Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:11 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: American adds more Asia to SEA, and other long-haul changes
Replies: 233
Views: 29615

Re: American adds more Asia to SEA, and other long-haul changes

More likely, sea pvg will be a huge bloodbath. Hard to say if it will be worse than lax pvg. There will always be a Chinese carrier in the sea market. If not hainan, then someone else will pick it up. As for sea, dl has indicated with it's action that sea is an integral part of it's network, even m...

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by bcbhokie
Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:22 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Updated: Aeroméxico files for Chapter 11
Replies: 96
Views: 18333

Re: Updated: Aeroméxico files for Chapter 11

I don't see how Mexico is going to have a viable national full service carrier until CDMX has a viable airport. AeroMexico should be positioned as an industry leader for connections between the Americas - the geographic location is perfect. But the gnarly immigration process makes transit a hassle,...

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by bcbhokie
Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:16 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Updated: Aeroméxico files for Chapter 11
Replies: 96
Views: 18333

Re: Updated: Aeroméxico files for Chapter 11

DL investment airlines seem to be doing well... This is a common refrain around here lately, but I don't think the strategy was bad overall. Delta has been a value investor in other airlines - they have consistently stepped in to make investments in struggling carriers that unlock value by bringing...

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by bcbhokie
Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:11 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Updated: Aeroméxico files for Chapter 11
Replies: 96
Views: 18333

Re: Updated: Aeroméxico files for Chapter 11

I don't see how Mexico is going to have a viable national full service carrier until CDMX has a viable airport. AeroMexico should be positioned as an industry leader for connections between the Americas - the geographic location is perfect. But the gnarly immigration process makes transit a hassle, ...

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by bcbhokie
Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:20 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: DL partially resumes some in-flight offerings
Replies: 14
Views: 4221

Re: DL partially resumes some in-flight offerings

It seems like adding Coke or juice cans to water offering shouldn't be a safety issue at all. Seems like more of a cost cutting issue than a safety issue? I'm really, really surprised they didn't include any non-alcoholic options here. Seems like a major miss to not at least offer Coke and Coke Zero.

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by bcbhokie
Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:19 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: DL partially resumes some in-flight offerings
Replies: 14
Views: 4221

Re: DL Partially Resumes Full in-Flight Services

Does Delta know if the Sweetwater 420 is marijuana infused? That doesn't sound very intelligent, whether it is or not. The support of marijuana by Delta would be egregious at best. And with this product they are doing just that. No, 420 is simply a name. Delta has served SweetWater 420 onboard for ...

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by bcbhokie
Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:23 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Emirates wants to partner with a US3 airline.
Replies: 92
Views: 15465

Re: Emirates wants to partner with a US3 airline.

Given that DL and QR's interests align more closely now with the LATAM investment, I almost think it's more likely for EK to partner with AA or UA, and for QR to make the shift to working with Delta...

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by bcbhokie
Fri May 29, 2020 1:55 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Rumor: DL to acquire 7 A350’s from QR
Replies: 96
Views: 24241

Re: Rumor: DL to acquire 7 A350’s from QR

Skyliner Aviation has this: https://www.skyliner-aviation.de/regdb.main?LC=nav4&page=2 A7-AMA and A7-AMB to CNF and to Delta in Q3. Three other QR A350s also on the move (A7-AQA/B/C) but listed as not for DL. A7-AMA/A7-AMB are the frames originally built for LATAM. These are two of the four air...

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by bcbhokie
Thu May 28, 2020 6:52 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Rumor: DL to acquire 7 A350’s from QR
Replies: 96
Views: 24241

Re: Rumor: DL to acquire 7 A350’s from QR

This makes total sense. There is no way Delta has the political capital to contribute in any way to bailing out LATAM after taking US government assistance, although they really need to salvage some value out of their investment and try to move forward with a healthy partner once the recovery begin...

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by bcbhokie
Thu May 28, 2020 6:27 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Rumor: DL to acquire 7 A350’s from QR
Replies: 96
Views: 24241

Re: Rumor: DL to acquire 7 A350’s from QR

This makes total sense. There is no way Delta has the political capital to contribute in any way to bailing out LATAM after taking US government assistance, although they really need to salvage some value out of their investment and try to move forward with a healthy partner once the recovery begins...

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by bcbhokie
Sun May 17, 2020 4:07 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet
Replies: 725
Views: 110777

Re: DL to permanently retire entire 777 fleet

I suspect that DL is also keeping an eye on its carbon emissions image - retiring the fuel guzzlers will also reduce its carbon emissions. If this was a priority, Delta would have prioritized fuel efficiency much sooner instead of relying on low-cost used aircraft. I really don't think this is a fo...

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by bcbhokie
Thu May 07, 2020 7:33 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Why do so many international terminals have arrivals corridors above the departures level?
Replies: 70
Views: 11153

Re: Why do so many international terminals have arrivals corridors above the departures level?

Surprised it hasn’t been said yet given all the discussion of AMS: Schiphol is a concrete example of an airport where the sterile arrival corridors are above the terminal because they were added many years after the terminal was built. AMS operated until a few years ago under a gate security model,...

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by bcbhokie
Thu May 07, 2020 4:08 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Why do so many international terminals have arrivals corridors above the departures level?
Replies: 70
Views: 11153

Re: Why do so many international terminals have arrivals corridors above the departures level?

Surprised it hasn’t been said yet given all the discussion of AMS: Schiphol is a concrete example of an airport where the sterile arrival corridors are above the terminal because they were added many years after the terminal was built. AMS operated until a few years ago under a gate security model, ...

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by bcbhokie
Wed Apr 22, 2020 1:53 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max
Replies: 365
Views: 63149

Re: Rumor: DL looking to trade 717s for 737 Max

There's a lot of confusion here as to why this deal makes sense, but it's pretty rational when you break it down. "Trade in" is confusing terminology, but it doesn't necessarily mean a zero cost transaction. Basically: - Boeing lets Delta out of the 717 leases now. Delta saves the capital ...

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by bcbhokie
Tue Apr 21, 2020 12:37 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway
Replies: 1181
Views: 129536

Re: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway

If passenger demand remains weak for more than two years they will be forced to partner with Delta in order to have a sustainable Seattle hub (Alaska's bread and butter) by rationalizing supply and demand between Delta and Alaska so aircraft don't fly empty just to horde gates IMO. Your username be...

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by bcbhokie
Wed Apr 15, 2020 9:44 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: New SCL terminal, new TPAC gateway between South America & Australia/NZ
Replies: 41
Views: 6135

Re: New SCL terminal, new TPAC gateway between South America & Australia/NZ

How does it transform? Are there more connections available or does the nice architecture contribute to a better transit experience? LA flies SCL-MEL/SYD/AKL/PPT. The only competition is QF (which LA has an agreement with) and NZ AKL-BUE. AR isn't coming back into the market. The prior internationa...

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by bcbhokie
Wed Apr 15, 2020 9:39 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: New SCL terminal, new TPAC gateway between South America & Australia/NZ
Replies: 41
Views: 6135

Re: New SCL terminal, new TPAC gateway between South America & Australia/NZ

The experience I had INTL-INTL flying AC EZE-SCL-YYZ was horrible. I've never walked as much in an airport, the U-shape design is the least friendly for connecting passengers. I agree on the long walks at the new terminal. I arrived in SCL on AA in January of this year. I have never walked so far i...

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by bcbhokie
Sat Feb 01, 2020 4:07 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Report: Airbus set to settle corruption probe
Replies: 127
Views: 9762

Re: Report: Airbus set to settle corruption probe

Paying bribes is not routine. I’ve been asked for bribes before and you say no. Sometimes you loose the business, but at least you know you lost honestly. Market share does not justify cheating. And most legitimate large US businesses have extensive training on the topic, making it clear that emplo...

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by bcbhokie
Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:48 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: OAG Changes 1/5/2020:PR Adds MNL-SEA,CEB-LAX;HU Drops LAS-PEK
Replies: 44
Views: 11223

Re: OAG Changes 1/5/2020:PR Adds MNL-SEA,CEB-LAX;HU Drops LAS-PEK

For the skeptics on the DL-operated ICN-MNL flight, keep in mind that it is largely an aircraft utilization move, maximizing the usage Delta gets out of its fleet operating flights to the JV hub in ICN. MNL is a relatively short route compared to the other cities Delta gave up flying to when shuttin...

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by bcbhokie
Sat Jan 04, 2020 5:57 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Delta launches operations center expansion in SEA
Replies: 25
Views: 5830

Re: Delta launches operations center expansion in SEA

Having visited the existing ops center in the bowels of the S gates, the new facility is sorely needed. They do what they can with the existing space but the poor employees are basically on top of one another and the space is entirely at capacity, even before accounting for representatives from part...

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by bcbhokie
Wed Dec 04, 2019 4:12 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Garuda to open 20 new international routes in 2020
Replies: 38
Views: 8902

Re: Garuda to open 20 new international routes in 2020

Garuda is not a very premium carrier in terms of product (fares are another thing) but they have a low cost workforce. Their positioning is not too good but they have a huuuuuge potential in their own domestic market. Onboard in premium cabins, GA is actually spectacular - easily one of the best in...

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by bcbhokie
Thu Nov 28, 2019 4:49 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Dr. Peters begins scrapping of two ex-SIA A380s
Replies: 287
Views: 93484

Re: Dr. Peters begins scrapping of two ex-SIA A380s

I noticed Dr. Peters leases A380 to AirFrance. At least per Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dr._Peters#Expansion_through_Ship_Investments This investment might not have the best return... Lightsaber And Air France retired F-HPJB today. Flew off to Malta to be returned to the lessor. https:...

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by bcbhokie
Thu Nov 28, 2019 4:59 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Delta buying 20% of LATAM
Replies: 867
Views: 124032

Re: LATAM to leave OW on September 30th 2020

I'm not saying that ATL is well-known for its Portuguese-speaking population, or have as many Spanish speakers as Miami, but there are plenty of Spanish speakers in Atlanta, and there are plenty available to assist at the airport. Portuguese speakers did not have a guaranteed assist in the D concou...

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by bcbhokie
Mon Oct 28, 2019 4:24 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Updated: JAL longhaul LCC ZIPAIR discussion
Replies: 254
Views: 38786

Re: JAL longhaul LCC = ZIPAIR

ST165 wrote:
Sure but why can't they stay at T2? JAL will be moving flights to HND too. Now connections are a hassle and it's not like T1 is cheaper to operate from than T2.


It's possible NRT is granting them a deal in exchange for taking all the space Delta is vacating?

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by bcbhokie
Tue Sep 24, 2019 11:38 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Updated: KLM delays AUS until March 2021
Replies: 114
Views: 20906

Re: KLM starts AUS S20

This follows Delta’s pattern to a T of capturing as many new airline incentives as possible from airports where they want to grow. SEA has expanded through AF, VS, and AM on flights that would probably have made more overall sense to operate themselves, and it’s largely because incentives allow the ...

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by bcbhokie
Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:41 pm
Forum: Travel, Polls & Preferences
Topic: Who will take Thomas Cook’s planes
Replies: 63
Views: 14524

Re: Who will take Thomas Cook’s planes

For anyone affected by the 737MAX groundings, these aircraft could get placed very quickly on short term leases. Icelandair comes to mind for the 757s, for example.

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by bcbhokie
Sat Sep 07, 2019 5:03 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Kenya Airways Wants a Better Deal From AF-KL Partnership
Replies: 13
Views: 3813

Re: Kenya Airways Wants a Better Deal From Air France-KLM Partnership

So they want to have the cake but eat it too? I am guessing that Kenya Airways would like to get into some sort of partnership with a British based airline. The perfect partner would be Virgin Atlantic, my arm chair ceo speculation. Kenya use to be a British colony, so there would be some business ...

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by bcbhokie
Fri Aug 30, 2019 10:28 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: QS 737-800 Flies for Nearly 2 1/2 Hours with One Engine Out
Replies: 59
Views: 17677

Re: QS 737-800 Flies for Nearly 2 1/2 Hours with One Engine Out

Travel Service/Smartwings is also the owner of Czech Airlines (OK), which actually has a pretty good safety and reliability reputation. Both seem to have separate airline codes so i imagine they are operating under different certificates; do any of our European colleagues have insider information on...

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by bcbhokie
Fri Aug 30, 2019 9:00 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: AUS eyes nonstop flights to 7 interc’l destinations: AMS, BJS, DUB, CDG, ICN, PVG, TYO
Replies: 227
Views: 32346

Re: AUS eyes nonstop flights to 7 interc’l destinations: AMS, BJS, DUB, CDG, ICN, PVG, TYO

I believe AUS would need an airline to hub there in order to make those destinations work. Isn't DL going to make AUS a focus city/mini hub? Exactly. This list of destinations reads like a copied list of DL overseas hubs, and I suspect the airport authority is specifically targeting DL here given t...

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by bcbhokie
Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:21 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: PKX (Beijing Daxing) Route Announcements and News Thread
Replies: 124
Views: 27098

Re: Beijing Daxing Route Announcements and News Thread

A couple of years ago there were rumors that AM was close to announcing MEX-XXX-PEK-MEX. Then the chatter went quiet. I wonder if AM will actually go ahead with this route once MU moves to PKX and is allowed to expand there. AM just cancelled Shanghai, unfortunately. I think it’s unlikely PEK/PKX w...

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by bcbhokie
Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:13 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Aeromexico reports loss; cancels PVG, suspends 5 other international routes
Replies: 44
Views: 10640

Re: Aeromexico reports loss; cancels PVG, suspends 5 other international routes

The biggest problem with MEX isn’t it’s size constraints, it’s the passenger experience. T2 is hot garbage - nobody would believe you if you said it was built in 2008, as it’s falling apart at the seams and is a really unwelcoming physical environment that feels constructed on the cheap. Although th...

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by bcbhokie
Mon Jul 15, 2019 9:41 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: JetBlue Flight Diverted to JFK due to Unusual Odor
Replies: 10
Views: 1610

Re: JetBlue Flight Diverted to JFK due to Unusual Odor

For a wild ride, read this Avherald investigation of a Spirit A320 series fume event: http://avherald.com/h?article=4b6eb830 Rumors of unresolved fume event issues on the A330neo are out there, too - TAP supposedly returned one to Airbus for a month and they were unable to root cause what might have...

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by bcbhokie
Mon Jul 15, 2019 6:40 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Can DL's A330neo fly SEA-SIN/SYD!?
Replies: 35
Views: 8356

Re: Can DL's A330neo fly SEA-SIN/SYD!?

So what I haven't seen mentioned here yet is that Delta's stated range for the A330neo is dramatically lower than the advertised rating: https://www.delta.com/us/en/aircraft/airbus/a330-900 suggests DL's is ranged at 5900 NAM/6790 SM. But Airbus advertises 7200 NAM/8325 SM. This is such a dramatic d...

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by bcbhokie
Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:55 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Delta announces MD-90 retirement deadline - end 2022
Replies: 111
Views: 17548

Re: Delta announces MD-90 retirement deadline - end 2022

I love aircraft diversity as much as anyone else here, but there are only so many times I can get stranded without getting home because of an MD-88/MD-90 maintenance issue before I decide it's time for them to go. I look forward to seeing them in museums and reminiscing about the good old days, but ...

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by bcbhokie
Wed Jul 03, 2019 4:05 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Disney launching their own airline?
Replies: 168
Views: 27116

Re: Disney launching their own airline?

but does an airline add enough additional revenue beyond the ticket? If they bundle the air fare with the other park amenities, they could probably get away with charging more if people are more attracted to booking literally everything under one reservation. They could essentially take you from th...

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by bcbhokie
Fri May 24, 2019 9:53 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: SEA IAF update and Ed Bastian comments
Replies: 63
Views: 9982

Re: SEA IAF update and Ed Bastian comments

Of course, the project seems to have little to do with serving passengers. More like a pretext for the port to engage in dubious lease conduct. How is adding 10,000 square feet of additional dining space not serving the passengers??? The process by which the tenancy for the airport concessions was ...

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by bcbhokie
Sat May 18, 2019 5:02 pm
Forum: Travel, Polls & Preferences
Topic: Will DL return to Hong Kong anytime soon?
Replies: 111
Views: 14183

Re: Will DL return to Hong Kong anytime soon?

“We welcome Cathay Pacific to the Seattle market and hope they lose just as much money flying to Hong Kong as we did.” -Delta last fall shortly after they canceled the route and CX picked it up. The problems for DL in SEA-HKG were myriad: no onward connections, inefficient airplanes for the route (t...

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by bcbhokie
Sat May 18, 2019 6:47 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Updated: US DOT awards Haneda slots
Replies: 821
Views: 152450

Re: Updated: US DOT awards Haneda slots

People need to stop assuming DL can fly to SIN from HND as long as they get the slots. They can’t. As far as I’m concerned pretty much all countries need a bilateral agreement between Japanese authorities in order to fly in to HND. Why would Singaporean authority give DL the right when themselves c...

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by bcbhokie
Fri May 17, 2019 7:29 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Updated: US DOT awards Haneda slots
Replies: 821
Views: 152450

Re: Updated: US DOT awards Haneda slots

The most interesting question to me here is what happens to MNL and SIN for DL. Possible scenarios: - DL adds one or both of these routes out of Seattle, possibly with a short gap in service or weird timing until the new IAF opens. Pros: grows the Seattle hub, might be able to run SQ out of town. Co...

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by bcbhokie
Mon May 13, 2019 7:38 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: PKX assigned officially as IATA code for Beijing Daxing International Airport
Replies: 133
Views: 14885

Re: PKX assigned officially as IATA code for Beijing Daxing International Airport

Seriously cool avgeek moment seeing China’s four major airlines bringing their flagships to the new airport all at once. It’s sort of like if IAD was opening brand new tomorrow and was visited by a DL 359, UA 787, an AA 777 and an AS 739 all at once for a photo op. Thanks for sharing!

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by bcbhokie
Sat Apr 20, 2019 4:32 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Boeing' s Trouble: Claims of Shoddy Production Draw Scrutiny to a Second Boeing Jet
Replies: 116
Views: 27164

Re: Boeing' s Trouble: Claims of Shoddy Production Draw Scrutiny to a Second Boeing Jet

The article does read as a bit of a pro-union alarmist propaganda piece, unfortunately, which undermines its credibility. Notably, it repeatedly cites foreign objects left in aircraft as a systematic problem in Charleston, while glossing over in one sentence that this is apparently also a problem in...

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by bcbhokie
Sat Apr 20, 2019 5:51 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: SEA congestion INTL arrivals
Replies: 60
Views: 10256

Re: SEA congestion INTL arrivals

Where would a bullet train be placed? I live in Bellingham, and there's barely room for the BNSF tracks (that see heavy freight usage daily, and are also used by Amtrak) as it is. Mudslides block the tracks regularly during the rainy season as it is. There is no impending bullet train up here. Only...

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by bcbhokie
Tue Apr 09, 2019 6:26 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Korean Air Chairman Ousted
Replies: 21
Views: 5123

Re: Korean Air Chairman Ousted

The battle for management control will start now......Would be interesting to watch. Somebody fetch me a bag of popcorn macadamia nuts. :duck: While I am sorry for their loss, I do hope this may enable KE to modernize their product a bit more. Yes I recognize their fleet is fairly modern, but would...

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by bcbhokie
Tue Apr 02, 2019 1:28 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Icelandair leases two 767s for extra lift during 737MAX grounding
Replies: 86
Views: 18315

Re: Icelandair leases two 767s for extra lift during 737MAX grounding

Oh golly, I didn't know you could shove 2-4-2 on a 767. Sounds miserable.

C looks nice, though. Should be an interesting experiment for Icelandair on the merits of offering a nicer seat in Saga class...

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by bcbhokie
Sat Mar 30, 2019 6:39 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Eurowings Adds FRA-LAS
Replies: 32
Views: 5088

Re: Eurowings Adds FRA-LAS

It's beyond me why would anyone from Europe go to Vegas. If one is going to the US, why not go somewhere actually nice. Conventions, if nothing else. LAS is arguably the most capable city for large gatherings in the United States, and many groups take advantage of the sheer volume of hotel rooms an...

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by bcbhokie
Sun Mar 17, 2019 3:29 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Virgin Atlantic- Is a new Upper Class design in the works?
Replies: 21
Views: 3536

Re: Virgin Atlantic- Is a new Upper Class design in the works?

The current product is miserable - much too tight, absolutely no storage or any kind, tiny drink tray exactly positioned to hit your funny bone every time you shift position, and a “bed” that’s less padded than the seat even after it’s made up with the duvet. Whoever thought sleeping on the carpeted...

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by bcbhokie
Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:23 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q1 2019
Replies: 6476
Views: 743819

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

So the same software fix they've been working on since November is needed to be finished and tested before they can fly again. And FAA saying it's months from being complete! Must be an incredibly tough software fix with the amount of resource they could put behind it? I’m not an aviation expert, j...

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by bcbhokie
Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:25 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Returning jets from the graveyard after a fleet grounding
Replies: 36
Views: 11804

Re: Returning jets from the graveyard after a fleet grounding

washingtonflyer wrote:
Be aware, AA was already dealing with a MAX issue owning to improperly installed bins which necessitated several MAX-8s being taken out of service.


I thought this affected the 738NG fleet, not the 7M8 MAX fleet?

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by bcbhokie
Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:18 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Returning jets from the graveyard after a fleet grounding
Replies: 36
Views: 11804

Re: Returning jets from the graveyard after a fleet grounding

It’s not unheard of for parked aircraft to be reactivated. When a DL 744 was severely damaged near ICN during a hailstorm, I believe they pulled one of the parked frames out of the desert to swap in for it until the eventual fleet retirement. But the aircraft do need to have been stored with reactiv...

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by bcbhokie
Sun Mar 10, 2019 8:46 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi Q1 2019
Replies: 5479
Views: 741393

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D1SNEeMWkAA ... ame=medium

Condolences to all involved.
-->

149 passengers and 8 crew onboard. Seems to have crashed shortly after takeoff (6 minutes or so into the flight), according to the statement from ET:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D1SNEeMWkAA ... ame=medium

Condolences to all involved.

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