Search found 506 matches

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by lowbank
Tue Feb 18, 2020 10:10 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Why wouldn't the Trent 1000-TEN problems also show up in the Trent XWB?
Replies: 46
Views: 6724

Re: Why wouldn't the Trent 1000-TEN problems also show up in the Trent XWB?

The initial request was around 80k and 90k thrust but airbus wanted the same engine just an engine management tweak to change the power output. GE and RR offered a solution on that basis. The power out put rose to 97k , GE bugged out as it didn’t want to design two engines. RR offered to hurry a de...

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by lowbank
Tue Feb 18, 2020 8:55 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Why wouldn't the Trent 1000-TEN problems also show up in the Trent XWB?
Replies: 46
Views: 6724

Re: Why wouldn't the Trent 1000-TEN problems also show up in the Trent XWB?

The talk about larger 787 generators consuming more shaft power being the root cause of these durability problems is nonsense. It may well be an intermediate cause due to poor engineering and testing by RR but it’s definitely not a root cause. GENx has proven the unique 787 architecture is reliable...

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by lowbank
Tue Feb 18, 2020 8:08 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Why wouldn't the Trent 1000-TEN problems also show up in the Trent XWB?
Replies: 46
Views: 6724

Re: Why wouldn't the Trent 1000-TEN problems also show up in the Trent XWB?

All I can say to you guys is, as I understand it. We are given a fan diameter and a power output required, SFC etc. Normally the power request goes up but the fan size stays the same. Go figure what happens. Going back to the XWB, as I remember it. The initial request was around 80k and 90k thrust b...

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by lowbank
Tue Feb 18, 2020 7:55 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Why wouldn't the Trent 1000-TEN problems also show up in the Trent XWB?
Replies: 46
Views: 6724

Re: Why wouldn't the Trent 1000-TEN problems also show up in the Trent XWB?

So the short answer is that the T1000-ten has pushed all areas of the engine harder hence showing up any issues quicker and higher frequency. Hence it’s not expected to see similar issues with the XWB. Thanks, that's a far better answer than the boss gave ( https://www.flightglobal.com/systems-and-...

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by lowbank
Tue Feb 18, 2020 4:16 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Why wouldn't the Trent 1000-TEN problems also show up in the Trent XWB?
Replies: 46
Views: 6724

Re: Why wouldn't the Trent 1000-TEN problems also show up in the Trent XWB?

The best way it’s been described in layman’s term’s to me. RR employee. The T1000-ten is akin to a Ferrari V12 F1 engine. The XWB is more like a Camaro V8 road engine. I have had the privilege of sitting through some lunch and learn presentations on the T1000 component issues, the work that’s gone i...

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by lowbank
Tue Feb 04, 2020 5:38 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020
Replies: 708
Views: 95446

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding News and Reference Thread 2020

Leeham Co reports that Spirit AeroSystems reached agreement with Boeing to supply 220 fuselages in 2020. Boeing said this week and last week that it will resume production “a couple of months” ahead of recertification of the MAX and that it will be a slow and deliberate restart and ramp up. https:/...

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by lowbank
Thu Jan 30, 2020 11:00 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Boeing announces first annual net loss since 1997
Replies: 126
Views: 15926

Re: Boeing announces first annual net loss since 1997

I pointed out weeks ago the costs of this would be massive to Boeing. Now I think I was probably over the top with my estimate at around 100 billion, however after seeing the figures the final amount will be over 50 billion in costs to Boeing . Can someone explain to me how chapter 11 works in the ...

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by lowbank
Thu Jan 30, 2020 6:23 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Boeing announces first annual net loss since 1997
Replies: 126
Views: 15926

Re: Boeing announces first annual net loss since 1997

I pointed out weeks ago the costs of this would be massive to Boeing. Now I think I was probably over the top with my estimate at around 100 billion, however after seeing the figures the final amount will be over 50 billion in costs to Boeing . Can someone explain to me how chapter 11 works in the U...

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by lowbank
Sun Jan 26, 2020 4:27 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: New RR T1000 issue - unexplained surges, mandatory de-pairing
Replies: 42
Views: 8249

Re: New RR T1000 issue - unexplained surges, mandatory de-pairing

This is a new issue only impacting high cycle, high time Trent 1000 engines, ie engines that have a lot of time on wing. TFA says: But the surge occurrences appear to be a separate issue. “Investigation into the cause [or causes] of these events is ongoing,” says the European Union Aviation Safety ...

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by lowbank
Sun Jan 26, 2020 4:18 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: New RR T1000 issue - unexplained surges, mandatory de-pairing
Replies: 42
Views: 8249

Re: New RR T1000 issue - unexplained surges, mandatory de-pairing

We are now 10 years after the first flight of the 787 and RR still can’t get their act together with the T1000. It’s pathetic. What are the facts ? Havant there been 4 Recent IFSDs on the GEnx vs 1 on the Trent 1000 ? This is a new issue only impacting high cycle, high time Trent 1000 engines, ie e...

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by lowbank
Sat Jan 25, 2020 6:53 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: New RR T1000 issue - unexplained surges, mandatory de-pairing
Replies: 42
Views: 8249

Re: New RR T1000 issue - unexplained surges, mandatory de-pairing

calstanford wrote:
We've been hearing about Trent 1000 issues for so long yet Trent XWB seems pretty okay so far (knock on wood). Do they really differ that much?


Yes they do differ that much.
The T1000 is likened to a Farrari V12.

The XWB more like the a Chevy V8.

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by lowbank
Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:01 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School
Replies: 565
Views: 56654

Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Having worked at a RR site that tested Trents on a weekly basis, it sounds nothing like a normal heathy Trent 1000. It sounds like a piston engine. Must be some new STC that I don’t know about to put the much smaller Trent 1000 on a 777.[/quote I think lowbank meant Trent 800 which as it happens wa...

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by lowbank
Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:58 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School
Replies: 565
Views: 56654

Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Having worked at a RR site that tested Trents on a weekly basis, it sounds nothing like a normal heathy Trent 1000. It sounds like a piston engine. Must be some new STC that I don’t know about to put the much smaller Trent 1000 on a 777. I was having a quick read before I went to work, only when I ...

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by lowbank
Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:46 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School
Replies: 565
Views: 56654

Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Here's another video, longer than the one posted upstream. Turn your sound on. https://twitter.com/TomPodolec/status/1217173396297076737?s=20 Does that sound like a Trent to you? PS: if I were one of the parents of the children at this school, I'd be PIIIIISSED! Totally sounds like a Trent. Looks l...

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by lowbank
Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:42 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752
Replies: 2719
Views: 293318

Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine 737

Reports here are Iran has admitted it shot down the plane.

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by lowbank
Wed Jan 08, 2020 5:27 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752
Replies: 2719
Views: 293318

Re: Reports of Ukrainian 737 Crash in Tehran,Iran

This is the picture that shows the holes. This is not the same piece as the other photos that were likely showing rocks and debris. But who knows. I don't think we'll get clarification anytime soon. From the Daily Mail. https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2020/01/08/08/23139596-7863359-Pieces_of_debris_ar...

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by lowbank
Wed Jan 08, 2020 1:31 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752
Replies: 2719
Views: 293318

Re: Reports of Ukrainian 737 Crash in Tehran,Iran

I cannot post pictures apologies. In the mail online in the UK. There is a picture I would like some of our experts on here to have a look at. I think it’s part of the tail , the horizontal stabiliser and the elevator. If it is what I think it is , that also has impact holes in it. Never seen an en...

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by lowbank
Wed Jan 08, 2020 12:57 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752
Replies: 2719
Views: 293318

Re: Reports of Ukrainian 737 Crash in Tehran,Iran

I cannot post pictures apologies. In the mail online in the UK. There is a picture I would like some of our experts on here to have a look at. I think it’s part of the tail , the horizontal stabiliser and the elevator. If it is what I think it is , that also has impact holes in it. Never seen an eng...

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by lowbank
Wed Jan 08, 2020 12:28 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752
Replies: 2719
Views: 293318

Re: Reports of Ukrainian 737 Crash in Tehran,Iran

As it’s dinner time now I will post a couple of thoughts. People are talking about engine failure, so can an engine failure cause what’s seen on the video. I would have to say yes, disk or blisk failures follow the same failure mode. They break into three pieces, one always larger than the other two...

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by lowbank
Wed Jan 08, 2020 8:54 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752
Replies: 2719
Views: 293318

Re: Reports of Ukrainian 737 Crash in Tehran,Iran

Please could someone screen shot the FR24 data and post it.
Thanks.
RIP to all on board

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by lowbank
Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:17 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020
Replies: 1740
Views: 190517

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

More from @jonostrower “HUGE NEWS: Boeing’s interim CEO Greg Smith says that the company will recommend full simulator training for all 737 Max pilots before the jet returns to service.” So those 737MAX Sims will be busy once they have been updated. It seems like since DM’s departure things seem to...

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by lowbank
Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:17 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020
Replies: 1740
Views: 190517

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

More from @jonostrower “HUGE NEWS: Boeing’s interim CEO Greg Smith says that the company will recommend full simulator training for all 737 Max pilots before the jet returns to service.” So those 737MAX Sims will be busy once they have been updated. It seems like since DM’s departure things seem to...

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by lowbank
Tue Jan 07, 2020 7:53 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020
Replies: 1740
Views: 190517

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

More from @jonostrower “HUGE NEWS: Boeing’s interim CEO Greg Smith says that the company will recommend full simulator training for all 737 Max pilots before the jet returns to service.” So those 737MAX Sims will be busy once they have been updated. It seems like since DM’s departure things seem to...

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by lowbank
Tue Jan 07, 2020 7:47 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020
Replies: 1740
Views: 190517

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Seems like compensation payments are coming daily now! https://www.cnbc.com/2020/01/06/american-airlines-reaches-deal-with-boeing-over-737-max-grounding-will-share-30-million-with-employees This I think is highly interesting: Boeing has set aside USD$6.1 billion to compensate customers via a combin...

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by lowbank
Tue Dec 31, 2019 11:24 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020
Replies: 1740
Views: 190517

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Well one thing I know for a fact.
Engines delivered to Airbus are owned by the OEM until delivered the the airline.
Engines delivered to Boeing are owned by Boeing on delivery.

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by lowbank
Tue Dec 31, 2019 9:29 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020
Replies: 1740
Views: 190517

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Just a quick look and approx airframe cost is $100,000,000. With 400 frames on the ground that’s 40 billion dollars of inventory , that’s borrowed money, interest having to be paid. I seriously doubt it would cost Boeing $100M to build a 737. So the amount needed to build this inventory is way lowe...

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by lowbank
Tue Dec 31, 2019 8:48 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020
Replies: 1740
Views: 190517

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Just a quick look and approx airframe cost is $100,000,000.
With 400 frames on the ground that’s 40 billion dollars of inventory , that’s borrowed money, interest having to be paid.

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by lowbank
Tue Dec 31, 2019 3:46 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020
Replies: 1740
Views: 190517

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

A better way to look at Airline's losses is the cost to lease in extra Capacity less the difference in Fuel Expense. According to this great post by Lightsaber https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1424243 737-800 lease costs are about $250,000 per month - call it $3,000,000 per year. MAX...

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by lowbank
Tue Dec 31, 2019 2:03 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020
Replies: 1740
Views: 190517

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

As a guide RR has stated the Trent 1000 issues will cost 2.4 billion, with circa 40 planes AOG.

I suggest it’s going to cost them north of 240 billion.

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by lowbank
Mon Dec 30, 2019 3:28 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended
Replies: 5670
Views: 739530

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

As far as I am aware, no requirements have changed from 2011 MAX baseline. If you know differently, please list them. Ray So the reports about larger trim wheel, cables re-route, 16g seat installation are just folks blowing smoke? If these items were waived for the 2011 MAX baseline and are now req...

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by lowbank
Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:27 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended
Replies: 5670
Views: 739530

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

I'm aware it's the fervent wish of many people posting here that the MAX never return to service, and if it does, a campaign based on FUD will keep passengers from flying on it, thus dooming the program. If it leads to bankruptcy for Boeing, so much the better. But I think those wishing for this wil...

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by lowbank
Sun Dec 29, 2019 12:10 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended
Replies: 5670
Views: 739530

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Exactly, Boeing has been vocal about what we now see were unrealistic timelines all year and now that the strategy has reached a breaking point some people are trying to blame the FAA for not being clear about time until RTS. The nature of testing and certification itself doesn't really lend itself...

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by lowbank
Sat Dec 28, 2019 11:01 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended
Replies: 5670
Views: 739530

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

I'm not sure the situation has degraded or the time lines have shifted. We have been given a lot of info around the time line and the process from Boeing itself, and it's natural that such info would be presented in an optimistic way. For all we know FAA was never in agreement on the timeline and n...

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by lowbank
Sat Dec 28, 2019 9:54 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended
Replies: 5670
Views: 739530

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

The FAA don’t need to tell anyone when the standard may be passed If that's actually the case then I can foresee a Q4 2020 thread for this discussion. Or are you saying that we're going to wake up one morning and they're going to surprise us and announce that the MAX has passed all the requirements...

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by lowbank
Fri Dec 27, 2019 7:14 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended
Replies: 5670
Views: 739530

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

That’s not the regulators place, they just set the standard to be past and judge when it has. It Boeing’s job to meet it and plan it’s work load to get there! What work load does Boeing still have to undertake to "get there?" Do you have any documentation? Do you think Boeing are just sit...

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by lowbank
Fri Dec 27, 2019 6:06 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended
Replies: 5670
Views: 739530

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Maybe he is wrong? I mean it would be the first timeline, which proved to be correct regarding the grounding. The regulators really do need to provide some sort of concrete guidance here, even if that concrete guidance is, "We have absolutely no idea when this airplane will be flying again.&qu...

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by lowbank
Fri Dec 27, 2019 11:54 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended
Replies: 5670
Views: 739530

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

I would be shocked if the Boeing engineering team could not fix the problem in a matter of months given a free hand. Care to elaborate? What solutions are they not able to implement without a 'free hand'? For example solutions that do: - require a new type rating - require an new avionics infrastru...

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by lowbank
Thu Dec 26, 2019 6:35 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended
Replies: 5670
Views: 739530

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Depends on what you define as easy. Finding the root cause for the pitch up should be easy for Boeing. Finding a solution to fix it, becomes easier the more penalties you are willing to accept for it, returning the plane back to service depends on the amount of changes they need to make, then how m...

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by lowbank
Thu Dec 26, 2019 3:49 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended
Replies: 5670
Views: 739530

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

With the massive amounts of aircraft parking still available in the desert, and the massive disruptions caused by a production halt - I think there's something else going on behind the production stop. It's not lack of parking, even though that's an issue.. parking is an easier puzzle to solve than...

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by lowbank
Thu Dec 26, 2019 1:38 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended
Replies: 5670
Views: 739530

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

The problem the MAX faces is not that unheard off. You can always kill the additional lift at high AoA with some strakes or vortex generators to disturb the airflow on the lift creating parts. This comes with a full burn penalty in normal flight though and is therefore not preferred option, but sti...

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by lowbank
Thu Dec 26, 2019 10:59 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended
Replies: 5670
Views: 739530

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Less drama please. Boeing will survive, the MAX will fly again How can you be so sure the MAX will fly again? Do you have information we don't? The problem the MAX faces is not that unheard off. You can always kill the additional lift at high AoA with some strakes or vortex generators to disturb th...

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by lowbank
Thu Dec 26, 2019 10:31 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended
Replies: 5670
Views: 739530

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

And then there's this: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/24/business/boeing-737-max-survey.html Incredible. They can't figure out what's wrong with it but they've already drafted the PR doublespeak to convince an increasingly reluctant public to fly on it. Absolutely incredible. The MAX really is doo...

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by lowbank
Wed Dec 25, 2019 12:05 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended
Replies: 5670
Views: 739530

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

The recent announcements about the MAX are really concerning. I have been convinced in the last couple of months that the MAX is unlikely to be certified again. That’s sad news indeed. Temporarily suspended because they’re running out of room to put them. Boeing has already announced whats taking s...

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by lowbank
Tue Dec 24, 2019 8:42 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended
Replies: 5670
Views: 739530

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

If you work in the US and have to sign that, then I stand corrected. I was going by researching what I could in my free time. I work in the UK, but would have thought the same rules apply. However on the other hand it does appear your citizens can kill UK citizens, run home and that’s acceptable. N...

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by lowbank
Tue Dec 24, 2019 7:53 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended
Replies: 5670
Views: 739530

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Unless there is some kind of securities fraud the justice department comes up with, there is no criminal case. The crashes happened outside of the USA on foreign carriers. Even if there was a federal statute that would apply (which I don't think there is), the US government doesn't have jurisdictio...

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by lowbank
Tue Dec 24, 2019 7:44 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended
Replies: 5670
Views: 739530

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

The recent announcements about the MAX are really concerning. I have been convinced in the last couple of months that the MAX is unlikely to be certified again. That’s sad news indeed. If it makes you feel better, just last week the head of EASA said he expected MAX to return to service around the ...

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by lowbank
Tue Dec 24, 2019 6:53 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended
Replies: 5670
Views: 739530

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

"The documents include further messages from Mark Forkner, the Boeing pilot whose 2016 instant message exchange with a colleague caused outrage when it was released in October." Seriously, I would largely prefer technical documents allowing to understand the real actual progress and remai...

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by lowbank
Tue Dec 24, 2019 11:23 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended
Replies: 5670
Views: 739530

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

The recent announcements about the MAX are really concerning. I have been convinced in the last couple of months that the MAX is unlikely to be certified again. That’s sad news indeed. However it’s slow death is going to have massive impacts on families who work on the plane and in the supply chain....

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