Search found 20606 matches

by Revelation
Sat Jul 20, 2019 2:15 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Boeing Expects a $5.6 Billion Hit for 737 Max Disruptions
Replies: 121
Views: 12217

Re: Boeing Expects a $5.6 Billion Hit for 737 Max Disruptions

Yes, just think, if they'd stumped up a bit more they could've had a new NSA instead of this mess. The problem with NSA wasn't just development cost; it was also time to market for NSA versus another revision of the 737 and the relatively limited benefits the NSA could deliver over 737-MAX. Indeed,...

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by Revelation
Sat Jul 20, 2019 11:52 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Trump Hosts Meeting b/w QR and the U.S. Carriers
Replies: 86
Views: 9297

Re: Trump Hosts Meeting b/w QR and the U.S. Carriers

strfyr51 wrote:
So? Now they've gone to Trump.. Ain't this something? So ? How much did the Emir offer Trump to set this UP? And? What's Pence's Take in this?

I'd say at least ten percent, same if not more for Kushner.

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by Revelation
Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:17 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Boeing Expects a $5.6 Billion Hit for 737 Max Disruptions
Replies: 121
Views: 12217

Re: Boeing Expects a $5.6 Billion Hit for 737 Max Disruptions

If I read between the lines, the 4,7BN is for the 2nd quarter (first quarter of grounding) only, and only represent what Boeing "think" they might stand to lose. Extend the grounding for another 2 (highly likely), 3 (probable) or 4 (unlikely but possible) quarters, and the picture may ver...

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by Revelation
Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:05 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019
Replies: 844
Views: 121484

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

5.6B can't possibly include losses for Q3 and Q4. You are partially correct. BUT you are absolutely wrong to say this is part of the money that Boeing have just set aside. I never said that. I only showed that 5.6B figure can't possibly be the final bill . Perhaps not the final bill, but the market...

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by Revelation
Fri Jul 19, 2019 11:39 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly
Replies: 85
Views: 22580

Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Leeham: Bjorn’s Corner: Airbus’ A321neo has a pitch-up issue says: The AD makes clear the issue is connected to a software version of the A321neo Elevator Aileron Computers (ELACs) , the Fly-By-Wire computers used for the A320 series control of pitch and roll. .... It’s this function which has defi...

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by Revelation
Fri Jul 19, 2019 12:29 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: A380 NEO Proposal
Replies: 34
Views: 5409

Re: A380 NEO Proposal

I could have sworn I read somewhere here that there was a proposal to put them on an Airbus aircraft (can't remember if it was the A330 or the A340) and either Airbus or GE themselves said no. John Leahy said in his post retirment interviews that GE offered to pay the cost of putting the GE90 V1 (i...

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by Revelation
Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:49 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: A380 NEO Proposal
Replies: 34
Views: 5409

Re: A380 NEO Proposal

What I meant was, didn't GE & Boeing sign an exclusivity agreement that the GE90 would only go on the 777 (or maybe other Boeing aircraft), and that it could not be offered to any other aircraft manufacturer? Having a family of engines on different platform is rather common (see the LEAP with t...

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by Revelation
Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:38 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Boeing Expects a $5.6 Billion Hit for 737 Max Disruptions
Replies: 121
Views: 12217

Re: Boeing Expects a $5.6 Billion Hit for 737 Max Disruptions

That’s not as bad as it may sound. I’m not denying that it is an eye watering amount of money, but BellSouth took multiple hits of over a billion just for restructuring about 20 years ago. What they do is take a loss on the books upfront and then reduce the accrual as they pay out the penalties in ...

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by Revelation
Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:48 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019
Replies: 844
Views: 121484

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

But such position is based on the premise, Boeing and Boeing-employed FAA reps interpretation and implementation of said rules is 100% correct and accurate. And that no influence, duress or coercion existed between Boeing and Boeing-employed FAA reps and FAA employees. The acid test of this, will b...

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by Revelation
Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:41 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly
Replies: 85
Views: 22580

Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

zckls04 wrote:
Well steered......

OK then two out of three. Thanks for taking a keen interest.

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by Revelation
Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:02 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019
Replies: 844
Views: 121484

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/18/busi ... harge.html
-->

If anyone asks how much of a financial hit Boeing is taking over MCAS, it seems $7.3B is the current figure:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/18/busi ... harge.html

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by Revelation
Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:48 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019
Replies: 844
Views: 121484

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

At that time (Mar 12th 2019) Boeing was confident hat it could provide the fixes en close the story quickly. There did not realized that the required actions was not only the fixes the deliveries but to analyse and fix how a such failure could happen in the first place . There did not realized how ...

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by Revelation
Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:35 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: A380 NEO Proposal
Replies: 34
Views: 5409

Re: A380 NEO Proposal

Development cost by far outweighed the potential return due to the limited market. While there can be reasons for doing things that knowingly loose money. T here was clearly insufficient customer demand for the A380 NEO. Most companies refrain from doing that for very large and expensive projects. ...

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by Revelation
Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:25 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly
Replies: 85
Views: 22580

Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

That is drawing direct parallels with the 737 instead of focusing on the A321neo. It's about industry standards for requiring sim training, inspired by the 737 situation, but obviously not a direct parallel. We can talk about whether or not sim training is needed to deal with "excessive" ...

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by Revelation
Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:47 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly
Replies: 85
Views: 22580

Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Hopefully not another case of a big aerospace corporation trying to avoid sim training. Where is this conclusion based on? It's not a conclusion. The question/issue I raise is (repeating from #48): Yet as I wrote we have an example here where putting more words in a manual is enough to deal with ' ...

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by Revelation
Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:54 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Boeing 797 Thread - 2019
Replies: 1050
Views: 145171

Re: Boeing 797 Thread - 2019

If I am Airbus and I want to make the market for NMA as unattractive as possible for Boeing I sell the A330 at cost if required (as part of a larger deal including A321XLR of course) to avoid them ordering the NMA. IMO some airlines will see that like being offered 737MAX10 and a hypothetical 767MA...

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by Revelation
Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:39 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding
Replies: 99
Views: 6997

Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Oh just let mums do what they have to do without forcing your idea of what's acceptable on them. It's a breast feeding a baby. If you're getting all quivery abd shakey at the sight or thought, you've got issues that are well beyond this forum. Odd of KLM. If there are mums who are able to cover the...

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by Revelation
Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:25 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly
Replies: 85
Views: 22580

Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Seems like most people either didn't read the article or even if they did, didn't comprehend it. Airbus has issued temporary revisions to the aircraft's flight manual incorporating operational limitations. Airbus knows exactly when this problem could happen, tells pilots to avoid those conditions. ...

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by Revelation
Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:26 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding
Replies: 99
Views: 6997

Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

Neither of us are breastfeeders, right? I'm getting my info via text from my brother's wife, how about you? Bottom line: stop putting the burden of your discomfort on to the mother, they've got more than enough to deal with already. I've actually tried the poncho myself - though not to breastfeed.....

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by Revelation
Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:51 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding
Replies: 99
Views: 6997

Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

What's wrong with wearing a nursing poncho/cover? My sister does it all the time when breastfeeding my nephews and it's hardly a hassle for her or the baby. One more thing to bring along, difficult to manipulate in an aircraft cabin, and quite often makes baby too hot and thus uncomforable and so h...

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by Revelation
Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:44 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Boeing 797 Thread - 2019
Replies: 1050
Views: 145171

Re: Boeing 797 Thread - 2019

I think that there is no need for the 797. The 787 covers the MoM just fine. Boeing would do better to dedicate all their resources to the MAX. Ummm... I haven't seen Boeing pitch the 787 vs. the A321XLR in any competition. The 787 has at least 40% more range than needed for the medium length route...

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by Revelation
Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:40 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding
Replies: 99
Views: 6997

Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

What's wrong with wearing a nursing poncho/cover? My sister does it all the time when breastfeeding my nephews and it's hardly a hassle for her or the baby. One more thing to bring along, difficult to manipulate in an aircraft cabin, and quite often makes baby too hot and thus uncomforable and so h...

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by Revelation
Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:49 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly
Replies: 85
Views: 22580

Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

Its FBW. All day long. So easy fix. With a keyboard. Unlike trying to put FBW on a 1960s design. Er, the revisions to MCAS are also apparently software fixes. So basically fixed with a keyboard. One would assume that any revisions to the A32Xneo FBW software to eliminate this anomalous situation wo...

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by Revelation
Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:37 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding
Replies: 99
Views: 6997

Re: KLM getting bad press over breastfeeding

People need to get ahold of themselves. The ask was to cover up a little during feeding. Completely reasonable. YOWza Not really. The mother knows best on how she and her baby would feel most comfortable and eat best during a feed. If covering up would help the baby eat better, great. If not coveri...

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by Revelation
Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:10 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly
Replies: 85
Views: 22580

Re: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

As we don't see any A321's flying themselves into the ground, or pilots reporting fighting with their aircraft to prevent such events from happening it would seem attempts to draw false equivalence in this case serves little purpose. Just sayin'. No grand "false equivalence", my only comm...

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by Revelation
Wed Jul 17, 2019 6:10 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019
Replies: 844
Views: 121484

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Yep, and what we can say for sure at this point is that an unsafe product ended up on the market. Then inevitably we end up back at the question that has been leading discussions in circles for months, is it unsafe because of training practices or because of the design (does it lie closer to one or...

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by Revelation
Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:36 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly
Replies: 85
Views: 22580

A321neo operators alerted over 'excessive pitch' anomaly

FG ( https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/a321neo-operators-alerted-over-excessive-pitch-ano-459718/ ) says: Airbus has introduced a temporary revision to A321neo flight manuals intended to prevent the possibility of the aircraft reaching excessive pitch attitudes . The European Union Aviation...

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by Revelation
Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:20 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019
Replies: 844
Views: 121484

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Either 1) Boeing truly was not able to see this coming and (at least at the time of MAX development) is incapable of creating effective safety critical systems, or 2) Boeing knowingly pushed this through the approval process after designing the system not in a way that is safe, but in a way that wo...

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by Revelation
Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:56 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Boeing 797 Thread - 2019
Replies: 1050
Views: 145171

Re: Boeing 797 Thread - 2019

I think it is amazing to see people blindly absorbing PR. If it satisfies deeper believes, preferences, there's no learning curve. Even after hitting the wall a dozen times on milestones, efficiency promises, solutions and cost reductions, it goes in like vanilla icecream. I think it is amazing to ...

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by Revelation
Wed Jul 17, 2019 12:50 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019
Replies: 844
Views: 121484

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

The FAA+EASA 5 "things" for the 737-8/9 are directly related to certification requirement non-conformity that Boeing must address now, instead to having addressed them at the right time: before releasing the 737-8/9 for commercial flight. Those "things" are not only design error...

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by Revelation
Wed Jul 17, 2019 12:28 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Passenger on AA from KIN-MIA asked to deboard to change from her romper outfit
Replies: 117
Views: 8105

Re: Passenger on AA from KIN-MIA asked to deboard to change from her romper outfit

My own opinion is I feel most people these days have no self-respect. They wear what they feel like and it doesn't matter if they're going on a flight or going to the gym. IMO there are cases where dress indicates low self respect, and other cases where dress indicates enough self respect to say I ...

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by Revelation
Wed Jul 17, 2019 12:02 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019
Replies: 844
Views: 121484

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

A small software issue would be buggy code that is acting in unintended ways, but MCAS is a fundamentally subpar solution to the problem of rushing out a new model but not wanting to spend the money to certificate a new model nor spend the money developing it. It can not just be 'solved' by Boeing'...

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by Revelation
Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:16 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Passenger on AA from KIN-MIA asked to deboard to change from her romper outfit
Replies: 117
Views: 8105

Re: Passenger on AA from KIN-MIA asked to deboard to change from her romper outfit

She has no class. Just an attention grabbing wannbe. Kick her off. Since when was classiness a requirement to fly? Every time you step into a private property; the owner or operator can kick you out if they feel your classiness (or lack thereof) is contrary to company values or rules. And when prov...

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by Revelation
Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:54 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019
Replies: 844
Views: 121484

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

There have been 387 Max deliveries compared to 7,038 NG deliveries or 5%. Add in A320 deliveries the MAX debacle means roughly 2% of the current build planes, and roughly 5% of currently in service planes are grounded. At these levels the loss of capacity hurts but doesn't kill the major airlines, ...

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by Revelation
Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:24 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019
Replies: 844
Views: 121484

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Even in the best case scenario the winter holiday season will be influenced, at least for certain airlines. If Boeing submits the fix in beginning of September and the agencies need 2 months for review and testing the aircraft would be cleared in the beginning of November. As every aircraft needs a...

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by Revelation
Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:51 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Boeing 797 Thread - 2019
Replies: 1050
Views: 145171

Re: Boeing 797 Thread - 2019

I fully agree. Before we saying that the widebody design will have consequential cost inefficiencies, I would like to know where the 72ton OEW estimate that is on Keesje’s picture from FlightGlobal came from. Do we actually have OEW numbers? A third generation composite wing and latest fuselage des...

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by Revelation
Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:46 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019
Replies: 844
Views: 121484

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

With no sign of a fix for the 737MAX will be interesting to see how the stock price holds up. I would imagine that if the stocks start to tumble heads will be chopped at Boeing. I hope Boeing has a Plan B if the 737MAX is too costly to fix. Thanks for adding the dramatic elements to your post. Ther...

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by Revelation
Tue Jul 16, 2019 12:41 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Any info on this 77W?
Replies: 23
Views: 5700

Re: Any info on this 77W?

How does that website even work? Certainly looks like an CX bird to me , and if it had 275 seats as some said unthread then that how many CX had on their 4 class aircraft when they were 9 abreast in Y. CX have withdrawn a few 77Ws (5?)in the last year or so. Steve tells us: Seems like it would be u...

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by Revelation
Tue Jul 16, 2019 12:35 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Updated: Boeing website updated to match FR's Boeing 737MAX200 rename
Replies: 109
Views: 4769

Re: 737-8200?

The official name for the model and the config is B737MAX200. So it doesn't really make sense to changed it to -8200. Either way, they should just replaced it with "That horrible plane on the news" False, that is the marketing name. 737-8200 is and has always been the model name that has ...

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by Revelation
Tue Jul 16, 2019 12:30 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019
Replies: 844
Views: 121484

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-48995509 "Boeing ditches 737 Max name on new Ryanair plane" We have an entire 737-8200 thread dedicated to this item. https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1426977 So now Ryanair are warning of routes being cut and base closures due to t...

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by Revelation
Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:52 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: B737NG: Nearing The End Of Final Commercial Production
Replies: 34
Views: 11383

Re: B737NG: Nearing The End Of Final Commercial Production

Armadillo1 wrote:
how poseidons will produce in future?

Same as today, on their own separate production line.

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by Revelation
Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:48 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019
Replies: 844
Views: 121484

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

XRAYretired wrote:
Much more sensible to fly @~20Kft, slow with Flaps 1, as they seem to do in Europe. Bit boring for US sky gods though.

Flying at max alt/speed efficiency is doing their part to help save the environment, lol.

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by Revelation
Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:14 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: IAG 737 Max Order Is Prompted by More Than Just Price: CEO
Replies: 133
Views: 19399

Re: IAG 737 Max Order Is Prompted by More Than Just Price: CEO

You mean, the same mess as with the LEAP-1B which, according to some, was the reason for reducing MAX rate from 52 to 42 p/m. At least, CFM now has some capacity on their hands to fix the -1A issues as well . . . :-) Right now, WW is providing an " indication not just to Airbus but to everybod...

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by Revelation
Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:06 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: American Airlines extends 737 Max flight cancellations through November 2019
Replies: 58
Views: 8736

Re: American Airlines extends 737 Max flight cancellations through November 2019

I said it earlier and it remains my assertion that this could very well be a franchise changing moment for Boeing. The current WSJ article is a pretty pessimistic rendering. I'm not sure if it's an accurate one, but so far, pessimism seems to be winning the day. They also point out the current FAA ...

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by Revelation
Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:55 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019
Replies: 844
Views: 121484

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Is an MCAS type event (accident) more or less likely when the MAX-8 flies empty to a storage airport? Boeing are still flying these new builds around the US daily. The "MCAS type event" we have are both due to faulty Angle of Attack sensors causing the flawed MCAS 1.0 system to kick in, a...

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by Revelation
Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:41 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: IAG 737 Max Order Is Prompted by More Than Just Price: CEO
Replies: 133
Views: 19399

Re: IAG 737 Max Order Is Prompted by More Than Just Price: CEO

Ironic reasons given the mess with the MAX. I think he was referring to the mess with A32x, GTF and LEAP-1A production. You mean, the same mess as with the LEAP-1B which, according to some, was the reason for reducing MAX rate from 52 to 42 p/m. At least, CFM now has some capacity on their hands to...

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by Revelation
Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:23 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Leeham: 14 new airplanes and derivatives see EIS through 2027. ??
Replies: 30
Views: 2829

Re: Leeham: 14 new airplanes and derivatives see EIS through 2027. ??

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_737_MAX#737_MAX_9 ).

Spacepope wrote:
Whether you believe it or not, the MAX-7 will also probably enter service too.

And it won't have containers.
-->

keesje wrote:
It seems MAX 9 entered service with United in 2018.

First delivery was (ironically enough) to Lion Air ( ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_737_MAX#737_MAX_9 ).

Spacepope wrote:
Whether you believe it or not, the MAX-7 will also probably enter service too.

And it won't have containers.

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by Revelation
Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:17 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Leeham: 14 new airplanes and derivatives see EIS through 2027. ??
Replies: 30
Views: 2829

Re: Leeham: 14 new airplanes and derivatives see EIS through 2027. ??

So what happened to the MAX-9 and the MAX version to seat 200 pax for FR, I don't think that is the same as the MAX-10 which is supposed to eventually replace the MAX 9. MAX 9 is already delivered. MAX 8 200 was pretty much ready for delivery at the time of the grounding ( ref: https://en.wikipedia...

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by Revelation
Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:11 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Updated: Boeing website updated to match FR's Boeing 737MAX200 rename
Replies: 109
Views: 4769

Re: 737-8200?

It's one way of dropping the tainted-"Max" name from public-facing fleet information. Expect more, unless Boeing comes up with a new name. A rose by any other name... The problem for Boeing is that the only way forward is for the regulators to bless the 737 as safe again and use that as l...

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by Revelation
Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:54 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: American Airlines extends 737 Max flight cancellations through November 2019
Replies: 58
Views: 8736

Re: American Airlines extends 737 Max flight cancellations through November 2019

What a fiasco for Boeing. How long can this go on before this really becomes an issue for them? It really already is an issue for them, yet the airlines have largely remained patient. IMO if the groundings go through the Thanksgiving / Xmas / New Years travel peak, airlines will lose that patience,...

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