Search found 4562 matches

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by heavymetal
Sat Sep 14, 2019 3:35 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Airbus launching A220LR or XLR according to Jon Ostrower
Replies: 70
Views: 12713

Re: Airbus launching A220LR or XLR according to Jon Ostrower

The question is now why use a NMA or B787/A330 when you can offer more frequencies and the same CASM with an A223? I think that this also opens up a lot of thinner US transcon point to point routes. To take the example of Ohio, second tier airports like CVG, CLE, CMH, CAK that were previously serve...

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by heavymetal
Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:40 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Moxy - News and Discussion Thread
Replies: 477
Views: 75337

Re: Moxy will start operations earlier than 2021 with E190s retired from Azul

http://blueir.investproductions.com/~/m ... update.pdf
-->

flyby519 wrote:
Planeboy17 wrote:
Gulfstream500 wrote:

Wait a second... B6’s E190s are about to be retired too...

The last one is scheduled to leave in 2025


Source?


JetBlue’s investor presentation in the E190 replacement:

http://blueir.investproductions.com/~/m ... update.pdf

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by heavymetal
Mon Sep 09, 2019 2:37 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: United to 50 states
Replies: 49
Views: 9361

Re: United to 50 states

I remember watching a documentary on UA many years ago when it was basically a domestic carrier with a few routes to Canada and Mexico One of their claims in that era however was that they flew to all 50 states Is that true anymore, If not how long has it been since they could claim that ? Incident...

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by heavymetal
Tue Aug 27, 2019 4:32 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Spirit Airlines looking at larger aircraft from Boeing
Replies: 62
Views: 11036

Re: Spirit Airlines looking at larger aircraft from Boeing

Could this mean orders for the 797? The MAX-10? I think we should dismiss the 797, as a small airline is unlikely to be thinking about a wide-body which doesn't exist. Right now the seven narrow-body USA airlines do not fly routes longer than 2500 nm (Alaska Air from Anchorage to KOA on Big Island ...

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by heavymetal
Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:37 pm
Forum: Technical/Operations
Topic: A320neo vs B737max
Replies: 64
Views: 9253

Re: A320neo vs B737max

The 737-800 has consistently had sale and lease rates that are about 5% higher than the A320. 737MAX-8 pricing also has been a little higher than A320neo pricing, but data is limited. If the 737-8 has a higher market value than the A320neo (before the crashes) it can be implied that if it is offere...

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by heavymetal
Wed Aug 07, 2019 4:48 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: UA’s cash position
Replies: 29
Views: 6499

Re: UA’s cash position

What you're talking about is the simple accounting entry for how share repurchases work on the balance sheet, the impact on cash and stockholders equity. This is purely accounting. The way the market values a company's equity generally does not match the company's book value of equity. For sharehol...

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by heavymetal
Tue Aug 06, 2019 5:40 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: UA’s cash position
Replies: 29
Views: 6499

Re: UA’s cash position

ummmm no.....they are buying outstanding shares which raise the price. Well technically he’s right, for the investors that UAL repurchases the shares from. Those investors get cash in exchange for their shares. What you’re referring to is the benefit to all of the remaining shareholders. Once UAL r...

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by heavymetal
Sun Jul 28, 2019 2:38 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Q2 2019 US Carriers Financial Performance
Replies: 47
Views: 5950

Re: Q2 2019 US Carriers Financial Performance

WN has 59,000 employees which is 55% of AA (not including regional employees). Coincidentally, their RPMs are also 55% of AA. The big difference in employee cost though is WN has very few layers of middle and upper management and they expect a lot of performance out of anyone that has the word Mana...

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by heavymetal
Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:44 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: UA’s cash position
Replies: 29
Views: 6499

Re: UA’s cash position

How is "buy back stock" giving money back to investors? Because they own the stock. When the airline buys your stock they pay you for it. ummmm no.....they are buying outstanding shares which raise the price. Well technically he’s right, for the investors that UAL repurchases the shares f...

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by heavymetal
Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:57 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Boeing 797 Thread - 2019
Replies: 1262
Views: 171702

Re: Boeing 797 Thread - 2019

A330 is more expensive than the 787, so I don't know why you think the a330 can be done "dirt cheap" Do you have a legitimate source for this claim that is not an AvWeek, AIN, Leeham, etc. article? Having fielded offers for both aircraft, this is categorically false. And it's not even clo...

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by heavymetal
Fri Jun 07, 2019 5:59 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: 737-800 lease rates increasing
Replies: 33
Views: 6510

Re: 737-800 lease rates increasing

So, lightsaber, you're shorting leasing company stocks then, confident that their lease rates will drop? :) It's bold to say the market - and its $ Billions of assets held by leasing companies and carriers - is wrong. This grounding may prop up 737-800 lease rates in the short-term, but it will be ...

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by heavymetal
Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:54 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Moxy - News and Discussion Thread
Replies: 477
Views: 75337

Re: David Neeleman Raising Funds for New U.S. Airline

I was just talking to neeleman...turns out he is actually planning on taking this capital to buy back Jetblue and go private. In cohorts with the pilots maybe. They want him back. I wonder if the the pilots will attempt labor action to drop the stock price, Neeleman could then purchase it through a...

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by heavymetal
Thu Apr 11, 2019 4:09 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Delta Air Lines Q1 2019 earning thread
Replies: 72
Views: 10501

Re: Delta Air Lines Q1 2019 earning thread

What irritates me the most is that we have enough revenue generation to become debt free very quickly. I feel that all the "shareholders" must have shareholdings in finances as well. It's insane, even at 1.9% interest, to take on debt when you don't have to. This statement shows a serious...

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by heavymetal
Thu Apr 11, 2019 12:36 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Delta Air Lines Q1 2019 earning thread
Replies: 72
Views: 10501

Re: Delta Air Lines Q1 2019 earning thread

What irritates me the most is that we have enough revenue generation to become debt free very quickly. I feel that all the "shareholders" must have shareholdings in finances as well. It's insane, even at 1.9% interest, to take on debt when you don't have to. This statement shows a serious...

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by heavymetal
Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:45 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas
Replies: 1727
Views: 388218

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

"Crew communications consistent with a loss control of the aircraft began approximately 18 seconds prior to the end of the recording." I am so grateful for the professionalism of the NTSB. To me this implies a loss of situational awareness; they would have been in a dive attitude for long...

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by heavymetal
Tue Mar 05, 2019 4:19 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Confirmed: Jetblue Announces Flights to London from JFK and BOS from 2021
Replies: 947
Views: 142388

Re: Jetblue “Save the Date” All Hands - April 10

That's fine. I actually don't think they are loosing a lot of money on those 2 routes. But they have gone from been super profitable to 2 markets that I think they are loosing money on. That's a huge drop in revenue (probably > $100 million a year). B6 is actually loosing a lot of money on BOS-ATL....

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by heavymetal
Mon Mar 04, 2019 9:38 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Confirmed: Jetblue Announces Flights to London from JFK and BOS from 2021
Replies: 947
Views: 142388

Re: Jetblue “Save the Date” All Hands - April 10

I'm just providing what's public available on BTS fare data. BOS-ATL is a bloodbath and that's obvious to anyone looking at the market. It was a very really profitable market for DL and now it probably looses money for them. Same with BOS-MSP. Take it for what you will. You asked me to provide data...

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by heavymetal
Tue Feb 26, 2019 1:48 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Reuters: Airbus pencils in orders for new A321XLR jet.
Replies: 197
Views: 44984

Re: Reuters: Airbus pencils in orders for new A321XLR jet.

As far as the NMA goes, I think Boeing would have to be looking at closing the business case on the assumption that an A321XLR (and any other potential variants like an A322) does get launched. Account for lost market potential early in your projections. A low-risk A321XLR would for sure find its n...

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by heavymetal
Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:21 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: JetBlue does it need to be saved from its management?
Replies: 251
Views: 28401

Re: JetBlue does it need to be saved from its management?

That’s funny I was only in B6 meeting with senior management. What do they know right guess I need to get my ears checked Unless you're leaking confidential information about an upcoming A220 delivery deferral, JetBlue has communicated 5x A220 deliveries in 2020. http://blueir.investproductions.com...

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by heavymetal
Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:57 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: JetBlue does it need to be saved from its management?
Replies: 251
Views: 28401

Re: JetBlue does it need to be saved from its management?

That’s funny I was only in B6 meeting with senior management. What do they know right guess I need to get my ears checked Unless you're leaking confidential information about an upcoming A220 delivery deferral, JetBlue has communicated 5x A220 deliveries in 2020. http://blueir.investproductions.com...

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by heavymetal
Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:50 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: JetBlue does it need to be saved from its management?
Replies: 251
Views: 28401

Re: JetBlue does it need to be saved from its management?

They say American flys them buts it’s piedmont(wholly owned subsidiary). Remember Aligany...memories This is not correct. The E190's are owned and operated by American, not Piedmont or any regional subsidiary. US airline pilot contracts prohibit operating any aircraft with more than 76-seats at the...

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by heavymetal
Sun Oct 07, 2018 4:13 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: United Airlines orders 9 787-9's
Replies: 172
Views: 32721

Re: United Airlines orders 9 787-9's

EChid wrote:
Okay, then I'm confused or my source is wrong. Airfleets reports UA has 74 active 777-200s and 777-200ERs while AA has 47 (-200ERs only). That's not a difference of 8.


UA has 19 777-200's (non-ER) and 55 777-200ER's, hence 74 total 772's but only 8 more 777-200ER's than AA.

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by heavymetal
Fri Sep 28, 2018 10:56 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others
Replies: 179
Views: 17789

Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

B6's 320s are relatively comparable in terms of seat numbers to the rest of the industry...BUT, two big things 1. The 320s don't have First Class, the legacies do - and yet B6 has the same number of seats. That means that DL/UA/AA can sell 134-138 seats just like B6, but 12-16 First Class seats at ...

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by heavymetal
Fri Sep 28, 2018 10:40 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others
Replies: 179
Views: 17789

Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

I don't understand this claim that JetBlue has less seats in their planes than the US3. I just checked SeatGuru. JetBlue has 150 seats in their A320 version and so does Delta in A320-V1. I never made the claim they had less seats than the US3, I was merely responding to your post that claimed the l...

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by heavymetal
Fri Sep 28, 2018 8:55 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others
Replies: 179
Views: 17789

Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

I expected them to do this, but it's still sad. And bowing to wall street really has very little to do with market share. AA/DL tows the line, whereas Kirby just went ahead with his expansion plan anyway and succeeded. We will see how this works out. I would more concerned if they start cutting rou...

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by heavymetal
Fri Sep 28, 2018 8:21 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others
Replies: 179
Views: 17789

Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

It's a balancing act. To date, JetBlue has found out the hard way that less seats does not necessarily = more $$$, so they have changed that slightly. By all public communications, Mint appears to be paying for the floor space it takes up. I wouldn't expect JetBlue to say otherwise, but until we ha...

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by heavymetal
Fri Sep 28, 2018 8:02 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others
Replies: 179
Views: 17789

Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Well, if the logic is that: cramming more seats = $$$ then maybe JetBlue should start shrinking legroom in Mint too and cram another Mint row in there... :roll: It's a balancing act. To date, JetBlue has found out the hard way that less seats does not necessarily = more $$$, so they have changed th...

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by heavymetal
Fri Sep 28, 2018 7:44 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others
Replies: 179
Views: 17789

Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

I expected them to do this, but it's still sad. And bowing to wall street really has very little to do with market share. AA/DL tows the line, whereas Kirby just went ahead with his expansion plan anyway and succeeded. We will see how this works out. I would more concerned if they start cutting rou...

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by heavymetal
Fri Sep 28, 2018 7:12 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others
Replies: 179
Views: 17789

Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

tphuang wrote:
Sad day for JetBlue. The management bows down to Wall Street again.


Better that they do it on their own accord, in a manner they can control, than be forced into it by activist shareholders. They can roll it out in as friendly and "JetBlue" of a way as possible.

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by heavymetal
Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:56 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: WOW Air financial trouble?
Replies: 74
Views: 21243

Re: WOW Air financial trouble?

Just seen that buyers of the bond will be able to convert their holding into shares at IPO (quite common in companies that are trying to grow fast) but at a 20% discount to the price everyone else pays at IPO time. The choice of whether to convert or not is usually made by the bond holder (ie inves...

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by heavymetal
Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:51 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: The Muddle of the Market aircraft (No, this isn’t a typo)
Replies: 327
Views: 32268

Re: The Muddle of the Market aircraft (No, this isn’t a typo)

Used airplane addict Richard Anderson once said that the economics for widebodies were completely different than narrowbodies in the new versus used argument. I'm not really sure what he meant. Sure the acquisition and overhaul costs are proportionally larger compared to a narrowbody, but so is the...

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by heavymetal
Wed Aug 22, 2018 5:36 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Which Frame Will Be More Efficient....The A35J or the 779?
Replies: 299
Views: 32781

Re: Which Frame Will Be More Efficient....The A35J or the 779?

Zeke said their A35K weigh in at +4% OEW vs A359. Zeke's airline also flies 77W. He should be able to provide reasonable OEW numbers for all 3 types ( and in a comparable layout at that?) Just taking WP:EN data would show 167t for the 77W, 142t for the A359 ( probably too high ) and ( zeke's +4% ) ...

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by heavymetal
Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:16 pm
Forum: Technical/Operations
Topic: Aspect ratio vs span loading in induced drag calculations
Replies: 12
Views: 1437

Re: Aspect ratio vs span loading in induced drag calculations

I think you are getting mostly there, but in Step #1 of your post, how are you arriving at the conclusion that AR is cancelled out in the formula for Cdi? I would need to write it out, but algebraically, I don't believe this is correct. Even when substituting the formula for C_l in your Cdi equatio...

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by heavymetal
Sun Aug 19, 2018 2:46 am
Forum: Technical/Operations
Topic: Aspect ratio vs span loading in induced drag calculations
Replies: 12
Views: 1437

Re: Aspect ratio vs span loading in induced drag calculations

I've been doing some reading, and I think I have started to understand the difference, allow me to add a bit to your post .. IMO a lot of confusion on AR vs. Span for Di calculations comes from not specifying the level at which the calculation is made. AR determines the Di coefficient but span dete...

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by heavymetal
Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:01 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: WOW Air looking for cash
Replies: 36
Views: 8397

Re: WOW Air looking for cash

How do you expect them to buy airplanes without issuing debt and bonds? Selling debt is not an indication of financial trouble. Delta selling over $1b in bonds. https://www.bondbuyer.com/news/municipal-bond-activity-may-get-a-boost-from-14-billion-delta-deal United sells $300m in bonds. https://www...

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by heavymetal
Mon Aug 06, 2018 1:41 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Boeing 797 Discussion Thread - 2018
Replies: 3491
Views: 431274

Re: Boeing 797 Discussion Thread - 2018

No A shrink of the MoM / NMA / 797 would come as a surprise only for those exclusively listening to Boeing. The lower part of the medium segment is the biggest one and the 737-9/10 keeps being pushed around the room. Slot availability, agressive pricing and fleet commonality won't last as selling p...

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by heavymetal
Fri Jul 27, 2018 3:51 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Reduction of 787 deferred production cost slows.
Replies: 288
Views: 22398

Re: Reduction of 787 deferred production cost slows.

It is strange how many Boeing fans you can have your cake and (eat) it. Yep, tastes great, and yet, there it still is. If the deferred cost is not cleaned up, the rest has to be booked as a loss. The whole deferred cost has been taken out as earnings, when you remove the deferred cost you have to l...

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by heavymetal
Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:43 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Boeing 797 Discussion Thread - 2018
Replies: 3491
Views: 431274

Re: Boeing 797 Discussion Thread - 2018

In the end, I think the MoM will work against the current single aisle offerings, but the next generation will be on the horizon after a third of the commercial life of the 797. With Boeing now having the E-Jets in the portofolio the 737 will probably grow a bit and start at 180 seats, then 220 and...

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by heavymetal
Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:50 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Is Southwest Really a LCC?
Replies: 79
Views: 6203

Re: Is Southwest Really a LCC?

Yes WN is a LCC. DL, UA, AA are legacies. WN is a LCC G4, F9, NK are ULCCs. I would consider AS and B6 to be full service airlines that aren't legacies. 2017 CASM AA/UA/DL over 12 cents WN 11.48 cents B6 10.76 cents AS 9.92 cents G4 9.38 cents NK 7.63 cents Of course, there are no cut-offs which de...

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by heavymetal
Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:08 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Wells Fargo sues AA for not returning leased planes on time
Replies: 65
Views: 11124

Re: Wells Fargo sues AA for not returning leased planes on time

This has nothing to do with mortgages and it’s not remotely similar to renegotiating loans on assets whose value had fallen far below the remaining mortgage. If AA doesn’t return the asset on time, doesn’t get an extension and doesn’t pay then they got what they deserve. You missed the point. As wi...

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by heavymetal
Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:12 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Moxy - News and Discussion Thread
Replies: 477
Views: 75337

Re: David Neeleman Raising Funds for New U.S. Airline

Well that’s one way Bombardier could’ve secured a decent NA order for the C Series that I would’ve never predicted ;) Indeed, Air Baltic's success against FR and WW must have impressed him. Allegiant is in trouble if this gets launched. You guys ever figure out where Andrew Levy went? Agreed, and A...

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by heavymetal
Sat May 12, 2018 8:04 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: a MTOW increase on 787-10 to compete with A359?
Replies: 605
Views: 86341

Re: a MTOW increase on 787-10 to compete with A359?

787 MLG are currently maxed out at current MTOW. I think there is still room with the wing. I agree with both assessments. I believe the tires are also maxed out too. It is non-trivial to upgrade at this point. I'm thinking it might not be worth the effort. Lightsaber The wing may have some room le...

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by heavymetal
Sat Apr 28, 2018 9:54 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Norwegian divesting itself of up to 140 aircraft
Replies: 17
Views: 7842

Re: Norwegian divesting itself of up to 140 aircraft

DY has decided to divest itself of up 140 aircraft, as the article indicates. CEO Bjorn Kjos did not elaborate on which deliveries would be affected but it is recalled that Norwegian has already switched six B787-9s on order from Boeing (BOE, Chicago O'Hare) out to BOC Aviation. In addition, five A...

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by heavymetal
Sat Apr 07, 2018 2:30 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: American Airlines orders 47 additional 787's (22 788's and 25 789's), cancels A350 order
Replies: 565
Views: 76840

Re: American Airlines orders 47 additional 787's (22 788's and 25 789's), cancels A350 order

I love all the experts on an airplane model that hasn’t even been defined by the manufacturer; hasn’t been launched; and won’t enter into service for 7 years. So you are sure the A321LR will have better economics than the 797? Given Leeham's strong credibility when breaking news stories before hitt...

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by heavymetal
Sat Apr 07, 2018 3:27 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: American Airlines orders 47 additional 787's (22 788's and 25 789's), cancels A350 order
Replies: 565
Views: 76840

Re: American Airlines orders 47 additional 787's (22 788's and 25 789's), cancels A350 order

The 788 seems like a bit more capable than needed for a lot of the routes being replaced. Were the 797 looking very attractive - and likely - to AA, they might not have gone for the 788. In reality, though, selling the 788 (on Boeing's part) does in its own way put pressure on the A330neo, which wa...

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by heavymetal
Sat Apr 07, 2018 2:21 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: American Airlines orders 47 additional 787's (22 788's and 25 789's), cancels A350 order
Replies: 565
Views: 76840

Re: American Airlines orders 47 additional 787's (22 788's and 25 789's), cancels A350 order

Big win for Boeing and a huge blow for Airbus. This positions AA to be an all-Boeing widebody airline. I'm not shocked that the 788 was on the order list. It's the best 763 replacement on the market today, and if 787 costs have been decreased as believed, the 788 might have gained in that area as w...

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by heavymetal
Sat Mar 31, 2018 7:17 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Boeing 797 Discussion Thread - 2018
Replies: 3491
Views: 431274

Re: Boeing 797 Discussion Thread - 2018

When this NMA or MOM or 797 saga is finally over, I really wonder what A.netters will discuss for hours. There will suddenly be a long silence... Oh I am sure there will be plenty of discussion on how Airbus will respond, followed by plenty of discussion on what they ended up choosing to respond wi...

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by heavymetal
Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:50 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Update: Hawaiian signs 787 LOI
Replies: 840
Views: 100179

Re: Update: Hawaiian signs 787 LOI

Air Canada recently sold two of its 787-9s to GECAS and leased them back, with GECAS paying $351M for two frames, netting a $8 million profit per frame in exchange for leasing them back. (Two later sale-leasebacks were later conducted also from the Air Canada order book with Air Lease Corporation, ...

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by heavymetal
Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:45 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: AA to retire 45 737-800's
Replies: 112
Views: 25684

Re: AA to retire 45 737-800's

Wishful thinking and already a reoccurring theme on here... but IMO these would be a decent option for Delta as short-term MD-88/90 replacements. WN I'll add as well. Didn't they recently hint at taking up used 738s if the opportunity presented itself? Why would SWA want aircraft that are near the ...

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by heavymetal
Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:43 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Update: Hawaiian signs 787 LOI
Replies: 840
Views: 100179

Re: Update: Hawaiian signs 787 LOI

Considering on a Unit Accounting basis the 787 brought in $4.7 billion in 2017 (compared to $5.4 billion on a Program Accounting basis), Boeing clearly wasn't selling 787s at "fire sale" prices. And the 787 actually made more on a Unit Accounting Basis in 2016 because they had to write of...

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