Search found 135 matches

by carlokiii
Thu Sep 12, 2019 2:39 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL
Replies: 316
Views: 54699

Re: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

It is believed/assumed/supposedly that the bilateral between Korea and the Philippines are full on the Korean end. Therefore as part of the JV, it led to the decision to have DL flying a ICN-MNL frequency to get around the full bilateral restrictions on behalf of KE. The South Korea/Philippines bil...

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by carlokiii
Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:44 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Philippine Aviation Thread - 2019
Replies: 752
Views: 119985

Re: Philippine Aviation Thread - 2019

The runway-taxiway separation is a manageable challenge, what’s not is the lack of A380-capable terminal infrastructure at the moment. Terminal 3 has no upper deck aerobridge and the gates barely have enough room for 400 passengers on their 777s, let alone 600. Even at 1AM-3AM, this would be an oper...

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by carlokiii
Thu Aug 08, 2019 2:52 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL
Replies: 316
Views: 54699

Re: Unconfirmed: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

So its confirmed. Delta closes NRT-MNL effective April 2020 https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/airlineroute/285771/delta-closes-tokyo-manila-bookings-from-april-2020/ So with the last route closing, it’s official... DL is closing the NRT hub by April 2020. I hope they make a little throwback even...

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by carlokiii
Thu Aug 01, 2019 7:08 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL
Replies: 316
Views: 54699

Re: Unconfirmed: DL closing NRT. Suspends NRT-SIN, Announces ICN-MNL

I am quite surprised that MNL is the last holdout of Northwest's NRT hub, especially compared to SIN which was deemed a "financial pressure".

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by carlokiii
Wed Jul 24, 2019 6:50 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Philippine Aviation Thread - 2019
Replies: 752
Views: 119985

Re: Philippine Aviation Thread - 2019

5J to end flights to Guam effective Dec 7 http://www.flightsinasia.com/article/4487 Interesting that 5J couldn't survive in Guam and that PR and UA are the last ones standing. You would have thought that with their low fares they could have done well. Sure there's the visa thing, but if that were t...

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by carlokiii
Wed Jul 17, 2019 6:09 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Passenger on AA from KIN-MIA asked to deboard to change from her romper outfit
Replies: 117
Views: 8320

Re: Passenger on AA from KIN-MIA asked to deboard to change from her romper outfit

I think the point that some is missing is the inconsistency with AA's regulation rather than determining what's appropriate to wear. Because regardless if one thinks it's appropriate or not, this outfit is worn fairly frequently in a lot of locations, much more Jamaica and Miami. So to have one pass...

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by carlokiii
Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:21 am
Forum: Travel, Polls & Preferences
Topic: Best Eurowhite Livery
Replies: 24
Views: 2151

Re: Best Eurowhite Livery

Air France really pioneered EuroWhite, so to me, their Eurowhite livery always looks best. https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRrt8b3fypozjsMeEP0JlIOW2_6XG7hd002Ju5gl-Nw9gi52AKI Eurowhites of today are actually getting more creative with the - extended vertical fin livery, - coated...

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by carlokiii
Sun Jul 07, 2019 1:04 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Virgin Atlantic flight cabin fire
Replies: 68
Views: 14562

Re: Virgin Atlantic flight cabin fire

Checked luggage is screened with X-ray just like everything else. There's a computer algorithm checking the x-rays images, and if the computer sees an anomaly, it goes through x-ray again and this time screened by a security person. The security person can then interpret the x-ray - and either give...

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by carlokiii
Sun Jun 23, 2019 2:07 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019
Replies: 883
Views: 206607

Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Forgive my ignorance, but I assume there's an option to add an overwing exit to increase the exit capacity to >440? EK already have 77Ws configured to 428 to with the 9 they'd probably want to go above 440 in an equivalent config. The overwing exit has been permanently deleted on the 777-9. Instead...

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by carlokiii
Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:52 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019
Replies: 883
Views: 206607

Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

New video: Boeing 777X extending its wingtips.
Link: @BoeingAirplanes on Twitter.

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by carlokiii
Wed Jun 19, 2019 3:01 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Philippine Aviation Thread - 2019
Replies: 752
Views: 119985

Re: Philippine Aviation Thread - 2019

A321XLR or LR makes more sense for PR than 5J, 5J for now should stick to their bread-and-butter which is domestic and regional. Don't really see why they had to order the A330neo now when they still have a bunch of relatively new A330s flying around and IIRC they have no plans of expanding long-ha...

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by carlokiii
Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:23 am
Forum: Travel, Polls & Preferences
Topic: Airline types that are/were only ever operated by a single airline
Replies: 51
Views: 4875

Re: Airline types that are/were only ever operated by a single airline

While other A350s already and will incorporate their specifications in their 'regular' variants, SQ has the A350-900ULR and PR has the A350-900HGW exclusivities... at least in those naming conventions.

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by carlokiii
Fri May 31, 2019 11:15 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Philippine Aviation Thread - 2019
Replies: 752
Views: 119985

Re: Philippine Aviation Thread - 2019

Over in the PAS 2019 thread, speculation is rife about 5J 's A330 replacement plan...negating earlier doubts about it..... :airplane: ..... https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cebuair-orders/philippines-cebu-air-close-to-buying-a330neo-or-b787-aircraft-idUSKCN1T015G Quote: "Cebu Air Inc is clos...

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by carlokiii
Fri May 31, 2019 9:30 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019
Replies: 883
Views: 206607

Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Just seen a post on Twitter saying the wingtips have been lowered on the 779 today. Not sure how to post the link on mobile Posting the picture for easy reference. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D72TUVhUwAAmlNQ.jpg Source I notice that only one wingtip was engaged with the port side still up. Interest...

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by carlokiii
Fri May 31, 2019 12:28 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019
Replies: 883
Views: 206607

Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Just seen a post on Twitter saying the wingtips have been lowered on the 779 today. Not sure how to post the link on mobile Posting the picture for easy reference. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D72TUVhUwAAmlNQ.jpg Source I notice that only one wingtip was engaged with the port side still up. Interest...

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by carlokiii
Fri Apr 26, 2019 12:14 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Updated: Garuda to keep 737MAX order, add 787s in agreement with Boeing
Replies: 162
Views: 42847

Re: Updated: Garuda to keep 737MAX order, add 787s in agreement with Boeing

Damn, they got a really big discount! They might cancel their A330neo if Boeing keep giving such low prices. I can’t really dispute that, but the 787 can do a great job replacing their 77W AND A330, considering Garuda’s usage of both. So while there may be some ~big discounts~, the 787 isn’t a forc...

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by carlokiii
Fri Apr 26, 2019 12:12 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Updated: Garuda to keep 737MAX order, add 787s in agreement with Boeing
Replies: 162
Views: 42847

Re: Updated: Garuda to keep 737MAX order, add 787s in agreement with Boeing

[*] Damn, they got a really big discount! They might cancel their A330neo if Boeing keep giving such low prices. I can’t really dispute this, but the 787 will do a great job replacing the 77W AND the A330, considering Garuda’s usage of both. So while there may be some ~big discounts~, the 787 isn’t ...

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by carlokiii
Thu Apr 25, 2019 10:08 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Airbus And Boeing 2019 Orders
Replies: 209
Views: 63042

Re: Airbus And Boeing 2019 Orders

What intially seemed like a strong year (at least relative to the trend) for Boeing orders this 2019 reversed and plunged overnight with Jet folding, in addition to the obvious MAX order freeze. With around two-thirds of 2019 remaining, Boeing has enough time to make this year brighter than this - n...

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by carlokiii
Tue Apr 23, 2019 5:49 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Cathay Pacific's Airbus A350-1000s and upcoming Boeing 777-9Xs
Replies: 70
Views: 17803

Re: Cathay Pacific's Airbus A350-1000s and upcoming Boeing 777-9Xs

ro1960 wrote:
Will CX’s 777X have the 9-abreast layout in coach like their current 777s?

CX has converted a number of their 777s to 10-abreast starting last year so there’s a good chance the 777X will also be 10 across in economy.

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by carlokiii
Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:16 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: What should Philippine Airlines do to make money?
Replies: 91
Views: 10105

Re: What should Philippine Airlines do to make money?

That's because you're comparing 10 abreast with 9. And 777 is seriously burning a lot more fuel for not many more seats; it burns some 9 ton per hour compared with less than 6 on A359. That could build up a large difference for a long distance flight (and hence why CX is replacing some 77W flights ...

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by carlokiii
Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:48 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: What should Philippine Airlines do to make money?
Replies: 91
Views: 10105

Re: What should Philippine Airlines do to make money?

Doubtful PR could cram its 77W’s 370 seats (which is in no way sparse compared to TG, BR, CI, etc) plus cargo in an A35K. Especially when compared to both Cathay and Qatar’s use of 77W vs A35K: CX: 40/32/296 vs 46/32/256 QR: 42/316 vs 46/281 While their first two 77Ws are approaching a decade old, ...

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by carlokiii
Mon Apr 01, 2019 1:46 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: What should Philippine Airlines do to make money?
Replies: 91
Views: 10105

Re: What should Philippine Airlines do to make money?

The problem is what to do with the B77Ws; they're too new to dispose and the A359s can do their missions and better, but they have 370 seats and are hard to fill. This 777 sentiment has been repeatedly brought up in this thread, yet PR has been utilizing the 777 well-enough to ensure good LF for LA...

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by carlokiii
Mon Apr 01, 2019 12:50 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: First 737MAX10 fuselage arrives for final assembly
Replies: 96
Views: 17822

Re: First 737MAX10 fuselage arrives for final assembly

It looks like a 707 on it's way to final assembly... 48 windows just like a 707-320! For comparison, cabin lengths: 757-200 118ft 5in 737-10 111ft 7 in 707-320 111ft 6in 707-120 104ft 10in 737-8 98ft 6in 727-200 92ft 8 in 727-100 72ft 8 in Do you know how big the a321s is? Cabin length of roughly 1...

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by carlokiii
Sun Mar 31, 2019 4:50 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: What should Philippine Airlines do to make money?
Replies: 91
Views: 10105

Re: What should Philippine Airlines do to make money?

The problem is what to do with the B77Ws; they're too new to dispose and the A359s can do their missions and better, but they have 370 seats and are hard to fill. This 777 sentiment has been repeatedly brought up in this thread, yet PR has been utilizing the 777 well-enough to ensure good LF for LA...

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by carlokiii
Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:47 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: What should Philippine Airlines do to make money?
Replies: 91
Views: 10105

Re: What should Philippine Airlines do to make money?

^ Yes that's why I was wondering where they fly that terribly to get a dismal 70% LF to balance out the flights that do exceptionally well. I genuinely wanted to know which sectors do poorly - I know LHR and JFK can be improved. And for the record, PR had an average of 80% LF for 2018. Anyway, the l...

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by carlokiii
Wed Mar 27, 2019 5:14 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: What should Philippine Airlines do to make money?
Replies: 91
Views: 10105

Re: What should Philippine Airlines do to make money?

I'm aware that we aren't writing scientific journals here, but some claims would age much better if they were supported by sources. If the 777 was indeed a money-pit for PAL, they would not have kept topping up their orders four times. While the financials seem to be in the red, do we know what sect...

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by carlokiii
Fri Mar 08, 2019 3:55 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Philippine Aviation Thread - 2019
Replies: 752
Views: 119985

Re: Philippine Aviation Thread - 2019

Singapore-bound Cebu Pacific flight diverted to Brunei after 'technical problem' found Flight 5J 803 was diverted to Bandar Seri Begawan at 1:45 a.m. on Friday, Cebu Pacific said in an advisory. Another aircraft has been dispatched from Manila to take affected passengers to Singapore, the carrier s...

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by carlokiii
Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:10 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Air China 983 PEK-LAX Diversion to Anadyr
Replies: 35
Views: 7959

Re: Air China 983 PEK-LAX Diversion to Anadyr

Just an update of the situation for the CA983 (04-Mar), and consequent CA984 (05-Mar): The rescue aircraft (B-1266) landed in Anadyr 12 hours after the emergency landing. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D040YckW0AI0QCl.jpg Source The ferry flight CA9983 to LAX took off from DYR 8 hours after, or roughly...

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by carlokiii
Tue Feb 26, 2019 6:47 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: BA492 Unstable Go-Around at GIB / Diverted to AGP
Replies: 116
Views: 24287

Re: BA492 Unstable Go-Around at GIB / Diverted to AGP

https://youtu.be/78ZDaQ0UYZg

I wish I was exaggerating but watching this video did make me a bit dizzy.
-->

ktof wrote:
Another onboard view here, the oscillating lasted around 20 - 30 seconds with a steep climb.

Although the steep climb may be accentuated in the video by the camera.

https://youtu.be/78ZDaQ0UYZg

I wish I was exaggerating but watching this video did make me a bit dizzy.

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by carlokiii
Fri Feb 22, 2019 3:27 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Last EVA Air Cargo 747-400 ops in May 2019
Replies: 24
Views: 4680

Re: Last EVA Air Cargo 747-400 ops in May 2019

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/airlineroute/283062/eva-air-cargo-tentatively-schedules-last-boeing-747-service-in-may-2019/ The last 747 freighter flight will be TPE-ANC-LAX-TPE. Could EVA’s 744’s Fly TPE-LAX nonstop? Well, the 744 has LAX-TPE scheduled, so there's no doubt it can do TPE-LAX....

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by carlokiii
Mon Feb 18, 2019 4:44 pm
Forum: Technical/Operations
Topic: 787 style windows
Replies: 58
Views: 7718

Re: 787 style windows

As a permanent window-seat occupant, I was worried for my freedom as I had heard unsettling anecdotes of total window dictatorship in Dreamliners prior to my first 787 flight a couple of years ago. Since then, I have been on exactly two 787 flights with two different Asian carriers, one on a night-t...

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by carlokiii
Fri Feb 01, 2019 3:02 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Philippine Aviation Thread - 2019
Replies: 752
Views: 119985

Re: Philippine Aviation Thread - 2019

Speaking of RFI CEB is looking to double its wide-body fleet by the 2020s. https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/cebu-pacific-to-double-widebody-fleet-issues-rfi-455422/ Delivery is expected to be either late-2020 or in 2021. Possible candidates are either the Airbus A330neo or the Boeing 787 ...

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by carlokiii
Wed Jan 23, 2019 7:34 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: NH buys stake in PAL
Replies: 7
Views: 2068

Re: NH buys stake in PAL

PR has already issued a disclosure to the Philippine Stock Exchange that there has been no definite agreements signed up to this day. Link

This rumour has been around since 2013.

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by carlokiii
Wed Jan 23, 2019 7:14 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019
Replies: 883
Views: 206607

Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

So the 777X will have dimmable windows ala the 787 family? I thought that idea was dropped to save $$$$$ ? It had been at least a customer option, but now looks like it will be standard. It might still be an option as the window shades are still present, at least on this AR experience in a 77X.

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by carlokiii
Tue Jan 22, 2019 2:59 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Philippine Aviation Thread - 2019
Replies: 752
Views: 119985

Re: Philippine Aviation Thread - 2019

PR's 5th A350 has rolled out off the paint shop featuring the "Love Bus" kiss mark.
Image
Source: @Airbus on Twitter

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by carlokiii
Tue Jan 22, 2019 2:57 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Philippine Aviation Thread - 2019
Replies: 752
Views: 119985

Re: Philippine Aviation Thread - 2019

PR's 5th A350 [RP-C3507] has rolled out off the paint shop featuring the "Love Bus" kiss mark.
Image
Source: @Airbus

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by carlokiii
Thu Jan 17, 2019 3:14 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Airbus Announces A Special Livery On The Airbus A350
Replies: 9
Views: 2969

Re: Airbus anounces a new special livery on the Airbus A350

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXvYxc1Vt0g
-->

Definitely Philippine Airlines

Image

A throwback to their 1980 marketing campaign for the then-new A300.
Commercial ad: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXvYxc1Vt0g

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by carlokiii
Thu Jan 17, 2019 3:09 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Philippine Aviation Thread - 2019
Replies: 752
Views: 119985

Re: Philippine Aviation Thread - 2019

Looks like the Love Bus returns on PAL’s 5th A350. @ Airbus on Twitter : WOWW! We're working on a special livery for one of our longest-standing customers! Can you guess who? It's an #A350! Watch this space! #LongRangeLeader https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DxFGi0VUUAAyQW-?format=jpg&name=large

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by carlokiii
Sun Nov 04, 2018 5:38 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: PAL inaugurates world’s eighth longest route: MNL-JFK
Replies: 57
Views: 13110

Re: PAL inaugurates world’s eighth longest route: MNL-JFK

Fantastic, a fan boy who won't look at the evidence of his fav airline not having as many nonstops as the others. Lol I’m willing to admit when I’m wrong but literally most of the flights you included aren’t even non-stops to begin with. North America =/= USA too. Apologies as my initial post was w...

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by carlokiii
Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:56 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: PAL inaugurates world’s eighth longest route: MNL-JFK
Replies: 57
Views: 13110

Re: PAL inaugurates world’s eighth longest route: MNL-JFK

With reference to Asian-US flights, it’s important to note that PR actually flies more people on non-stop flights to North America from South East Asia than all other airlines combined . I am pretty sure PR flies more people between NA and SEA, but I am also pretty sure it is not bigger than all ot...

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by carlokiii
Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:05 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: PAL inaugurates world’s eighth longest route: MNL-JFK
Replies: 57
Views: 13110

Re: PAL inaugurates world’s eighth longest route: MNL-JFK

- someone please update us on this. You, and some others, seem to have a very outdated and overall misinformed view of PR. With reference to Asian-US flights, it’s important to note that PR actually flies more people on non-stop flights to North America from South East Asia than all other airlines ...

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by carlokiii
Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:06 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Future of Southeast Asia to N. America flights
Replies: 49
Views: 7485

Re: Future of Southeast Asia to N. America flights

It’s interesting that as of October 2018, there are only eight (or nine*) non-stop ASEAN-NA routes: (direct one-stop flights excluded) MNL-JFK (PR) MNL-LAX (PR) MNL-SFO (PR) MNL-YVR (PR) MNL-YYZ (PR) SIN-EWR (SQ) SIN-LAX (UA) SIN-SFO (SQ) *MNL-HNL (PR) Aside from the additional SQ flight to LAX, I t...

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by carlokiii
Tue Oct 09, 2018 2:35 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Philippine Aviation Thread 2018
Replies: 774
Views: 109897

Re: Philippine Aviation Thread 2018

That was a good read. It sure felt like the A340s inevitably became the unwanted necessities of PAL, especially with the later acquired used frames.

Sad to see another long-time A340 flier retire its last A340.

With this, PR has finally retired all the quads in the fleet.

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by carlokiii
Sat Sep 22, 2018 5:51 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Singapore Airlines takes delivery of first A350-900ULR from Airbus
Replies: 133
Views: 30241

Re: Singapore Airlines takes delivery of first A350-900ULR from Airbus

https://www.flightradar24.com/SIA8895/1df55a7a

That’s an extremely northerly route they’re doing here. TLS-SIN isn’t even a polar route. Are they trying to stretch the delivery flight upwards of 18 hours?
-->

StTim wrote:

That’s an extremely northerly route they’re doing here. TLS-SIN isn’t even a polar route. Are they trying to stretch the delivery flight upwards of 18 hours?

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by carlokiii
Wed Sep 19, 2018 5:06 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Philippine Aviation Thread 2018
Replies: 774
Views: 109897

Re: Philippine Aviation Thread 2018

Hey Devil' , or anyone else who may have a good tap on the rumor mill at PR, I'm wondering if there's still any chatter about SAN making it to the PR route map anytime in the foreseeable future? One reason I ask, speaking of route maps, is that I was just noticing that on the PR "Where We Fly&...

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by carlokiii
Wed Sep 19, 2018 6:42 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Boeing Rolls out Static Test 777-9X
Replies: 125
Views: 23736

Re: Boeing Rolls out Static Test 777-9X

When in commercial use, at what point will the wing extensions be placed in the downward position? At what point with they be return to “the upright and locked position”? The crew will lower them manually before starting the takeoff roll, but after clearing a point (to be determined on an airfield-...

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by carlokiii
Thu Aug 30, 2018 2:01 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Boeing 737MAX Production/Delivery Thread 2018
Replies: 807
Views: 213430

Re: Boeing 737MAX Production/Delivery Thread 2018

Boeing uploaded a video showing a scale model of the cantilevered gear in the upcoming 737 Max 10, explaining its mechanism.

Video link: @BoeingAirplanes

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by carlokiii
Thu Aug 30, 2018 1:39 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Boeing 777X Production Thread 2018
Replies: 309
Views: 85095

Re: Boeing 777X Production Thread 2018

First completed 777-9 fuselage:
Image

@BoeingAirplanes on Twitter.

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by carlokiii
Wed Aug 29, 2018 6:48 am
Forum: Travel, Polls & Preferences
Topic: Why do some airlines put middle seats in J class?? Also, 1-2-1 vs 2-2-2 in J class?
Replies: 30
Views: 4594

Re: Why do some airlines put middle seats in J class?? Also, 1-2-1 vs 2-2-2 in J class?

Counting the number of seats per row can be misleading. Rows of 1-2-1 are spaced a lot closer than those that are 2-2-2. Like post #7 said above, check the number of seats over the same area instead. Some 1-2-1 in regional J are tight, like SQ's 787. NZ's 1-2-1 configuration is horrid, you're basica...

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by carlokiii
Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:17 am
Forum: Technical/Operations
Topic: Punchiest airliners
Replies: 73
Views: 6019

Re: Punchiest airliners

The punchiest takeoff I have experienced was on a half-full BR A332. While it was a rolling takeoff, my head still hit the headrest when the engines spooled up, and only took around 25 seconds after that to lift off.

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