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by Bhoy
Fri Sep 18, 2020 6:54 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Swiss Aviation Thread - 2020
Replies: 180
Views: 30144

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread - 2020

https://twitter.com/flyswiss/status/130 ... 97888?s=21
-->

Swiss took delivery of their first A321neo, HB-JPA, today.

https://twitter.com/flyswiss/status/130 ... 97888?s=21

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by Bhoy
Mon Sep 07, 2020 8:39 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: "Indian Airlines" A321 at Prestwick
Replies: 18
Views: 5053

Re: "Indian Airlines" A321 at Prestwick

'According to Indian newspaper The Hindu, the shoot will benefit from an on-site doctor at all times, with the cast and crew under strict orders to wear a wrist-watch that will constantly monitor their oxygen levels, body temperature, blood pressure, stress levels and pulse - with a centralised das...

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by Bhoy
Sun Sep 06, 2020 4:00 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Issues with 737 MAX Rebranding?
Replies: 67
Views: 8700

Re: Issues with 737 MAX Rebranding?

What is really different in the passenger experience from an -800 and a -8? 99,999% of the customers have no idea what kind of plane they are on and the 737 is the same inside from almost every perspective. The difference is in economics if the fix works and the plane is certified to fly. It’s the ...

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by Bhoy
Wed Sep 02, 2020 6:43 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Updated: BA fleet parking, will retire 747 fleet
Replies: 350
Views: 87564

Re: Updated: BA fleet parking, will retire 747 fleet

In the images I’ve seen recently of the parked BA 744’s their engines are removed quite quickly, is there actually any worldwide demand for the RB211’s anymore? All I can think of is US registered B757’s. They’re a different size - the 757 uses RB211-535s with a 74.1 inch diameter fan, the 744s hav...

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by Bhoy
Wed Sep 02, 2020 3:23 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Updated: BA fleet parking, will retire 747 fleet
Replies: 350
Views: 87564

Re: Updated: BA fleet parking, will retire 747 fleet

In the images I’ve seen recently of the parked BA 744’s their engines are removed quite quickly, is there actually any worldwide demand for the RB211’s anymore? All I can think of is US registered B757’s. They’re a different size - the 757 uses RB211-535s with a 74.1 inch diameter fan, the 744s hav...

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by Bhoy
Fri Aug 28, 2020 7:14 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Updated: BA fleet parking, will retire 747 fleet
Replies: 350
Views: 87564

Re: Updated: BA fleet parking, will retire 747 fleet

I'm hearing anecdotally via GLA based NATS operatives that BA's Airbus A321 CEO fleet is being progressively rounded up there (16 already a further two on Friday) for storage and disposal. At the IAG Second Quarter results presentation (31st July), for BA under "right sizing the business for t...

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by Bhoy
Thu Aug 27, 2020 4:25 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Updated: Virgin Atlantic creditors aprove restructuring; (files for BK in US Court)
Replies: 1516
Views: 183558

Re: Updated: Virgin Atlantic creditors aprove restructuring; (files for BK in US Court)

VS announce flights to Pakistan starting in December. Islamabad will be served from both MAN and LHR, as well as Lahore from LHR as Virgin seeks to redeploy their Aircraft. These VFR routes will doubtless be busy as PIA is currently banned from europe since the A320 crash in Karachi at the start of ...

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by Bhoy
Wed Aug 19, 2020 11:32 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Swiss Aviation Thread - 2020
Replies: 180
Views: 30144

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread - 2020

In the foreseeable future it doesn’t make sense to operate. The aircraft and crew are Zürich based I believe. That and with huge lack of demand it probably means they’re better off losing some customers, while rerouting others via Zürich rather than try to keep this route alive for the time being, ...

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by Bhoy
Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:02 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Swiss Aviation Thread - 2020
Replies: 180
Views: 30144

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread - 2020

JFK was their only longhaul flight from GVA, and if if is cancelled for good, which I fear it is, it will be the only real loss.This would probably be within the STAR strategy which could possibly also mean that UA flights would not be resumed. I just can't see them to be able to reroute these 400-...

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by Bhoy
Wed Aug 12, 2020 1:04 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: British Airways network updates
Replies: 316
Views: 54464

Re: BA to permanently close LGW short-haul ?

You also seem to forget that there is a very loyal BA customer base, even more so to Cityflyer out of LCY. People will pay more to fly BA to Nice or Ibiza just because they can. CityFlyer have a loyal following because they don’t have Buy on board - if this is about reducing costs at Gatwick, they’...

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by Bhoy
Fri Aug 07, 2020 7:05 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: What happened to British Airways world cargo?
Replies: 23
Views: 4922

Re: What happened to British Airways world cargo?

IAG Cargo utilise a Qatar 777F under BA code from Stansted to Hong Kong via Doha on daily basis replacing the previous agreement with Atlas who supplied three dedicated 747Fs via a joint business called Global Supply Services Three 744F models operated between 2002 and 2012 operated in a modified A...

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by Bhoy
Thu Aug 06, 2020 5:44 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Updated: BA fleet parking, will retire 747 fleet
Replies: 350
Views: 87564

Re: Updated: BA fleet parking, will retire 747 fleet

When these five 744's get to leave LHR, they should each fly a couple of circuits and simultaneously do a few touch and goes off 27L and 27R. The BOAC 744 flying from Cardiff could join, straight down the middle over the tower waving her wings. The goodwill and PR would more than make up for the co...

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by Bhoy
Thu Aug 06, 2020 8:43 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Updated: Virgin Atlantic creditors aprove restructuring; (files for BK in US Court)
Replies: 1516
Views: 183558

Re: Updated: Virgin Atlantic seeks restructuring; files for BK in US Court

got this e-mail from Flying Club late yesterday evening. Hello xxxxx, You may have seen headlines today regarding Virgin Atlantic’s Chapter 15 filing in the United States. I wanted to contact you to provide some more context, make sure you have all the information, and to reassure you that if you ho...

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by Bhoy
Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:08 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: BA service to Australia over the years
Replies: 45
Views: 6701

Re: BA service to Australia over the years

The JSA dates from the early 2000s and included Qantas Frankfurt service where BA were to take Qantas passengers onto Manchester and Birmingham replacing the Qantas flight . Qantas opened Manchester in 1984 and ran till 2002 . It was obviously a multi stop and varied quite a bit When started routed...

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by Bhoy
Tue Jul 28, 2020 8:57 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Swiss Aviation Thread - 2020
Replies: 180
Views: 30144

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread - 2020

This is only good if you do not buy duty free items. But it is definitely an option. I don’t think it makes any difference to duty free; your boarding pass will still say where the flight officially goes to/from (ie either BSL or MLH) to differentiate between Switzerland/France. There are no Airlin...

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by Bhoy
Mon Jul 27, 2020 9:16 pm
Forum: Travel, Polls & Preferences
Topic: Why was the 747-500 cancelled?
Replies: 40
Views: 15371

Re: Why was the 747-500 cancelled?

As history has shown, most airlines wanted the 747 for it's range, not size. If you wanted a long range jet in the late 80s, a 747-400 or an MD-11 was the only game in town, and we all know that the MD-11 didn't exactly live up to its promises. When the A340-300 and 777-200ER started offering simil...

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by Bhoy
Mon Jul 27, 2020 5:49 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Swiss Aviation Thread - 2020
Replies: 180
Views: 30144

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread - 2020

If you do not have a GA (yearly ticket for trains and buses) your return to Basel is 50.- from Zürich if you have a half fare card. Otherwise it is 100.-. So you do not safe that much. Parking is an option but for a two week trip it will cost you pay a minimum of 156.-. ( https://www.euroairport.co...

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by Bhoy
Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:36 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Air Canada Schedules Rouge Replacement Flights For 2021
Replies: 28
Views: 7890

Re: Air Canada Schedules Rouge Replacement Flights For 2021

Air Canada Rouge is a different company from mainline and crew don’t cross fleet. Were all the Rouge B767 pilots let go? Also I note no sign of Glasgow coming back? Surely a MAX route? Glasgow’s already on sale for next summer on aircanada.com (albeit just for a six week season), listed as a Rouge ...

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by Bhoy
Fri Jul 24, 2020 11:36 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: French routes news thread
Replies: 340
Views: 62660

Re: French routes news thread

    9252fly wrote:
    I noticed AF, TN and BF are routing CDG and ORY flights to and from PPT via YVR. Is this a recent change and will some of the carriers make it permanent?

    At the moment, French nationals can’t enter the US, even as a transit Pax at LAX...

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    by Bhoy
    Tue Jul 14, 2020 11:46 pm
    Forum: Civil Aviation
    Topic: A220 - loud noise when lowering gear?
    Replies: 19
    Views: 4917

    Re: A220 - loud noise when lowering gear?

    I had my first flight on an A220 two weeks ago (LX AMS-ZRH), it’s a comfortable ride, but certainly makes the occasional weird noise (particularly noticeable inside on spooling up).

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    by Bhoy
    Tue Jul 14, 2020 9:47 pm
    Forum: Civil Aviation
    Topic: A Fitting Tribute to one of the Greatest Airlines Ever - TWA
    Replies: 40
    Views: 6040

    Re: A Fitting Tribute to one of the Greatest Airlines Ever - TWA

    By the way, are there any ex-TWA aircraft still in use and if so by who ? DL has a bunch of of B752s N7xxTW, which another website has as being TWA. They are still in use. AA had a bunch of NxxxTW MD83s but they left recently. Yeah, American sold their 17 remaining ex-TWA 752s to Delta in 2005, as ...

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    by Bhoy
    Tue Jul 14, 2020 3:17 pm
    Forum: Civil Aviation
    Topic: Austrian Airlines to shrink by 20% by 2022
    Replies: 107
    Views: 15163

    Re: Austrian Airlines to shrink by 20% by 2022

    I guess this will have a domino effect as Austrian Airlines relies heavily on transfer passengers from these markets. Austrian government bans flights from the western Balkans as well as from Romania, Bulgaria, Egypt and Moldova. I guess their flights from Vienna to places like Chicago will be quit...

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    by Bhoy
    Tue Jul 14, 2020 3:00 pm
    Forum: Civil Aviation
    Topic: Austrian Airlines to shrink by 20% by 2022
    Replies: 107
    Views: 15163

    Re: Austrian Airlines to shrink by 20% by 2022

    I guess this will have a domino effect as Austrian Airlines relies heavily on transfer passengers from these markets. Austrian government bans flights from the western Balkans as well as from Romania, Bulgaria, Egypt and Moldova. I guess their flights from Vienna to places like Chicago will be quit...

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    by Bhoy
    Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:34 pm
    Forum: Civil Aviation
    Topic: 80s Europe-South Africa Fuel Stop Question
    Replies: 31
    Views: 3536

    Re: 80s Europe-South Africa Fuel Stop Question

    http://departedflights.com/SA0380.html Ilha do Sal off West Africa. [b]Didn't SAL fly JNB-SIN-TPE too in the 1980s? Don't see that on the map?[b] Didn't know they were flying to HKG via Seychelles! Do they have rights between Seychelles and HKG? Yes, that was the routing that the 743Combi was on wh...

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    by Bhoy
    Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:38 am
    Forum: Civil Aviation
    Topic: Austrian Airlines to shrink by 20% by 2022
    Replies: 107
    Views: 15163

    Re: Austrian Airlines to shrink by 20% by 2022

    I don't get it, why are they only obsessing about their domestic network. Shouldn't they cut BUD first? Isn't that one of their shortest routes in the network that could easily be replaced by a train link? One of the requirements is to cut CO2 emissions within Austria by 50% - so a flight to a non-...

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    by Bhoy
    Mon Jul 06, 2020 3:38 pm
    Forum: Civil Aviation
    Topic: Comet: why no front left door?
    Replies: 8
    Views: 2615

    Re: Comet: why no front left door?

    Well, AFAIK boarding an ATR-42 or -72 is still rear left. The ATR 72-x01 has front and back Left Pax doors, with just a small luggage compartment forward right (they have an overwing style exit in the first row on the right). The -x02 has a full Luggage/cargo compartment at the front, with overwing...

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    by Bhoy
    Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:43 am
    Forum: Civil Aviation
    Topic: Did the air France Concorde fly in the original livery?
    Replies: 24
    Views: 4303

    Re: Did the air France Concorde fly in the original livery?

    Been wondering, did the air France Concorde ever fly In the original livery or was it flying in the updated livery by the time it entered service? https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/86NuEHr7l-pmL02KmIuRKYtrmm6WjqJOmRdl46Prbgy30JUpoM8Tb2_Ri_Mx1i6of20uC3EiXoVSCH5ZbinXdIdrUVPIO23OfgAOq0llrfwBMgUV...

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    by Bhoy
    Fri Jun 26, 2020 7:55 am
    Forum: Civil Aviation
    Topic: What is the future of LGW? What will it mean for the other hubs?
    Replies: 86
    Views: 10034

    Re: What is the future of LGW? What will it mean for the other hubs?

    I don’t see Luton as being that poorly connected - sure, it’s a 5 minute bus journey to Luton Parkway* (but there’s a monorail coming), but once there, you can get to pretty much any other train station without having to change too often - Thameslink to Central London/Gatwick/Brighton, East Midlands...

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    by Bhoy
    Tue Jun 23, 2020 5:10 am
    Forum: Civil Aviation
    Topic: What is the future of LGW? What will it mean for the other hubs?
    Replies: 86
    Views: 10034

    Re: What is the future of LGW? What will it mean for the other hubs?

    No idea what you mean, something lost in translation. I was simply explaining as someone who lives IN London, how we see the limits of London and why only two of the major airports are actually seen as in London. West Sussex is quite far out, Berekshire (LTN) and Essex (STN) even more so, but from ...

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    by Bhoy
    Mon Jun 15, 2020 7:05 pm
    Forum: Civil Aviation
    Topic: Austrian Airlines to shrink by 20% by 2022
    Replies: 107
    Views: 15163

    Re: Austrian Airlines to shrink by 20% by 2022

    How does this guarantee that Vienna’s growth doesn’t lag behind Munich and Zurich work if during that period, OS is cutting 20% of the fleet/staff?

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    by Bhoy
    Mon Jun 08, 2020 11:08 am
    Forum: Travel, Polls & Preferences
    Topic: Will foreign bases be reopened one day?
    Replies: 15
    Views: 2831

    Re: Will foreign bases be reopened one day?

    easyJet, Ryanair and Wizz never closed their foreign Crew bases...

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    by Bhoy
    Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:27 am
    Forum: Civil Aviation
    Topic: CCTV in Aircrafts
    Replies: 54
    Views: 4884

    Re: CCTV in Aircrafts

    To me the main thing pilots could do that would lead to trouble is talking during critical phases of flights, and there is already the CVR to pick that up.It has already been the downfall of pilots (when there was no accident or they survived). I really don't see what a camera changes to that equat...

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    by Bhoy
    Sat May 23, 2020 9:59 pm
    Forum: Civil Aviation
    Topic: Swiss Aviation Thread - 2020
    Replies: 180
    Views: 30144

    Re: Swiss Aviation Thread - 2020

    Yes there will be an extension to the passport control area which will lead into an extra non-schengen floor on terminal A. So basically it will be: 1st floor for Schengen flights, 2nd floor for transit / arriving passengers and 3rd floor for non-schengen flights. As for the extra gates I counted 2...

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    by Bhoy
    Wed May 20, 2020 8:52 pm
    Forum: Civil Aviation
    Topic: British Airways to take delivery of first 787-10 arriving at LHR around 8am on 21 May 2020
    Replies: 90
    Views: 19433

    Re: British Airways to take delivery of first 787-10 arriving at LHR around 8am on 21 May 2020

    LGW always gets LHR hand-me-downs when it comes to BA. At least two of the 777s @LGW are the newest -200ERs and non of the G-GAT 320s are ex LHR so not entirely true The G-GAT’s are all second hand, though, so while not LHR hand me downs, they’re not all singing, all dancing factory fresh examples,...

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    by Bhoy
    Tue May 12, 2020 5:40 pm
    Forum: Civil Aviation
    Topic: Virgin Atlantic Plans GLA for 2021
    Replies: 24
    Views: 4484

    Re: Virgin Atlantic Plans GLA for 2021

    I see GLA-MCO being feasible maybe twice a week next year. Since the Brits are getting 80% of their salary if they are unemployed during the pandemic, they might be able to make up for the shortfall Disney and Universal will have next year, when millions of Americans will still be unemployed. There...

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    by Bhoy
    Sun May 10, 2020 1:04 pm
    Forum: Civil Aviation
    Topic: Updated: Virgin Atlantic creditors aprove restructuring; (files for BK in US Court)
    Replies: 1516
    Views: 183558

    Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

    What's interesting is that despite being troubled by its previous parent company's woes, German airline Condor is in a much better position than Virgin whilst also being the de facto number 2 airline in its home country. Condor has almost double the number of passengers carried (9.4m against 5.4m),...

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    by Bhoy
    Sat May 09, 2020 4:29 pm
    Forum: Civil Aviation
    Topic: Updated: Virgin Atlantic creditors aprove restructuring; (files for BK in US Court)
    Replies: 1516
    Views: 183558

    Re: Virgin Atlantic facing collapse

    They want to see weak airlines collapse and not be propped up by the state . ...if anybody here is naive enough to think that this is about anything other than IAG trying to get rid of a big competitor before taking as much no-strings-attached government money as possible, then I've got a bridge in...

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    by Bhoy
    Fri May 08, 2020 2:57 pm
    Forum: Civil Aviation
    Topic: Why do so many international terminals have arrivals corridors above the departures level?
    Replies: 70
    Views: 11226

    Re: Why do so many international terminals have arrivals corridors above the departures level?

    I remember reading, at the time CDG was built, that departing passengers faced a journey through the building that was consistently upwards from the road to the plane, whereas passengers who arrived by air travelled downwards from the plane to the outside scenery. A nice idea, but from earlier comm...

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    by Bhoy
    Thu May 07, 2020 3:40 pm
    Forum: Civil Aviation
    Topic: Why do so many international terminals have arrivals corridors above the departures level?
    Replies: 70
    Views: 11226

    Re: Why do so many international terminals have arrivals corridors above the departures level?

    1. When I arrived at Heathrow on AA we went through a long sterile corridor above the normal corridor till we got to the transfer bus area to T5. How does one connect to a leaving from the same concourse there? Backtrack? And why did I have to go through security again at T5, wasn't I in a sterile ...

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    by Bhoy
    Wed May 06, 2020 9:21 pm
    Forum: Civil Aviation
    Topic: old 70s/80s alliance question
    Replies: 26
    Views: 8285

    Re: old 70s/80s alliance question

    I recall BA had an association with UA in the 1980s. Both of their logos were slapped on everything in BA's terminals, including tickets and boarding passes. Joint BA/UA flight numbers would also be used. I seem to remember Concorde was exempted from any co-branding. I don't know how UA reciprocate...

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    by Bhoy
    Wed May 06, 2020 6:17 pm
    Forum: Civil Aviation
    Topic: Did the Concorde ever fly TPAC?
    Replies: 17
    Views: 4418

    Re: Did the Concorde ever fly TPAC?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYvRHcJAZCU
    -->

    It certainly did some around the World flights.

    eg here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYvRHcJAZCU

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    by Bhoy
    Wed May 06, 2020 5:54 pm
    Forum: Civil Aviation
    Topic: Sir Tim Clark "A380 is OVER"
    Replies: 135
    Views: 31130

    Re: Sir Tim Clark "A380 is OVER"

    Galwayman wrote:
    william wrote:
    So no change in plans then to fly the A380 for another 10 years or so(end of leases) then replace.



    Great - thats another ten years at least to fly this beautiful aircraft ... the height of aviation's achievement


    :shakehead:

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    by Bhoy
    Tue May 05, 2020 3:30 pm
    Forum: Civil Aviation
    Topic: Updated: Virgin Atlantic creditors aprove restructuring; (files for BK in US Court)
    Replies: 1516
    Views: 183558

    Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

    ltbewr wrote:
    Probably in any hope to get any government help, VS had to make drastic decisions. I hope they survive, my 2nd trip to the UK was on them EWR-LGA when they only had the 1 747 and competition is needed for fare pricing.

    Can a 747 even fit into LGA? :duck:

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    by Bhoy
    Tue May 05, 2020 3:04 pm
    Forum: Civil Aviation
    Topic: Updated: Virgin Atlantic creditors aprove restructuring; (files for BK in US Court)
    Replies: 1516
    Views: 183558

    Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

    Ryga wrote:
    airhansa wrote:
    ...BY is collapsing...


    Your ignorance is amusing.

    did he not just get the codes back to front?
    BY is collapsing, whereas DY future is uncertain

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    by Bhoy
    Tue May 05, 2020 2:42 pm
    Forum: Civil Aviation
    Topic: Updated: Virgin Atlantic creditors aprove restructuring; (files for BK in US Court)
    Replies: 1516
    Views: 183558

    Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

    imo, huge mistake here. They could've moved all their operation to LGW and faced no BA competition and had all the slots they needed to build a hub. Yet, they decided to compete with a minimal network against a much larger rival in a weakened demand environment. Other than serving DL, I don't see h...

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    by Bhoy
    Tue May 05, 2020 2:31 pm
    Forum: Civil Aviation
    Topic: Updated: Virgin Atlantic creditors aprove restructuring; (files for BK in US Court)
    Replies: 1516
    Views: 183558

    Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

    VS is pulling out of LGW. https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1443313&p=22197385#p22197385 I haven’t seen it confirmed, but guess they are continuing at MAN? Probably don’t need Heathrow and Gatwick in this situation. Heathrow may be about to gain an Orlando route though. Wh...

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    by Bhoy
    Tue May 05, 2020 1:12 pm
    Forum: Civil Aviation
    Topic: Updated: Virgin Atlantic creditors aprove restructuring; (files for BK in US Court)
    Replies: 1516
    Views: 183558

    Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

    timboflier215 wrote:
    If they are moving LGW routes to LHR, which LHR routes will be cut to free up the slots?

    All the routes to the US while CBP isn’t letting anyone in except Cargo flights?

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    by Bhoy
    Tue May 05, 2020 12:56 pm
    Forum: Civil Aviation
    Topic: Updated: Virgin Atlantic creditors aprove restructuring; (files for BK in US Court)
    Replies: 1516
    Views: 183558

    Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

    imo, huge mistake here. They could've moved all their operation to LGW and faced no BA competition and had all the slots they needed to build a hub. Yet, they decided to compete with a minimal network against a much larger rival in a weakened demand environment. Other than serving DL, I don't see h...

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    by Bhoy
    Sun May 03, 2020 11:14 am
    Forum: Civil Aviation
    Topic: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant
    Replies: 347
    Views: 68840

    Re: BA could make up to 12.000 employees redundant

    The A318 pilots are actually Heathrow A320 based pilots who have the LCY trips pre-extracted or bid for them at phase 1 of the 2 phase bid process. The rest of their month is made up of regular LHR A320 trips. It's the cabin crew that are LGW based. Citiflyer are not on the BA master seniority list...

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    by Bhoy
    Sun May 03, 2020 9:20 am
    Forum: Civil Aviation
    Topic: BA could make up to 12,000 employees redundant
    Replies: 347
    Views: 68840

    Re: BA could make up to 12.000 employees redundant

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EW8UF0WXgAAx6pq?format=jpg&name=small https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EW8UF0WXgAAx6pq?format=jpg&name=large There’s a separate corps of A318 Pilots for LCY? I thought they were just seconded from the LGW base, so should surely just be included in that Airbus number?

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