Airliners.net

NorthTerminal

Re: Delta pilot hits female passenger

No! The plane was on the ground and at the gate. A pilot had no right to HIT a woman regardless of what was happening. That's what's security/law enforcement is for. :rotfl: Yeah, let security hit the passenger, that's what they're there for ;) I'm sure you didn't mean it like that, but I just coul...

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NorthTerminal

Re: United and Dr. Dao reach settlement

I can well understand that this is your opinion. It's actually a fact, but hey, don't let that get in the way of a good ol' fashioned "Airlines are eeeeeeeeeevil!" mjoelnir rant... What is a fact? That airlines can enforce their COC with force against their passengers? Or is it a fact, th...

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NorthTerminal

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Well, OM just sent another e-mail to MileagePlus members (or maybe like the first, only to 1K members) dunno: Great response. Sounds like they have changed procedures to be fairer to the passenger and addressed policies to give staff more power to resolve situations... and come to the realisation t...

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NorthTerminal

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

A man who paid his fare, who is NOT a security threat, and who arrived on time should be allowed to fly. The fact that the airline had a problem with moving its crews around is NO excuse to yank him off if he refused to voluntarily leave. Why should passengers be inconvenienced because the airline ...

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NorthTerminal

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

I have said on SEVERAL occasions that I don't know whether the man was discriminated against because he was Chinese. I specifically stated that I can understand why he might think that he was. I thought that his lawyers had said explicitly that this was not a race issue when they gave their press c...

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NorthTerminal

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

...and it should have gone to everyone in their database. I agree, it is hardly a significant additional overhead to to send out a larger bulk mailing, they could have simply prioritised certain groups if they wanted to make them feel more important. It is a fairly trivial oversight, but one that I...

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NorthTerminal

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

It absolutely is reasonable to IDB. Airlines do it all the time. And when did I say anything about a safety argument. I simply said the airline asked him to leave their plane because he was being denied boarding and they have that right. Reasonable people leave when security asks them to, not say &...

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NorthTerminal

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Exactly. Regardless of the merits of this particular individual, let's see... - Failure to follow flight crew instructions - federal felony - Failure to follow law enforcement instructions - state misdemeanor - Resisting arrest - state felony And there's probably an assault charge or two in there a...

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NorthTerminal

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

No point in discussing any of this with you, since you are clearly just getting dramatic and making no sense. Sure, the flight wasn't oversold. They were just looking for volunteers and removing people from the flight because it was fun. Maybe what he meant is that it was not originally oversold, h...

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NorthTerminal

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

The problem here is there is the court of law and the court of public opinion as witnessed on this website. The court of public opinion is what fuels the PR nightmare and it will continue until this is settled and out of the media. The court of law (if it comes to that) is what will examine the CoC...

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NorthTerminal

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

They did have discretionary powers... to IDB and preserve the schedule for the next day. Discretion. The freedom to decide what should be done in a particular situation To IDB and preserve schedule is strict company policy the antithesis of discretion. And anyway, the fact that the passenger was bo...

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NorthTerminal

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

In your world nobody would get anywhere because flights would all be cancelled when crew times out because someones feelings are hurt and everyone just has to stop and stare at each other. And everyone would be in prison for every minor thing apparently. And in yours, any airline would not have to ...

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NorthTerminal

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

A few points: 1.) There have been instances where the passengers appearance alone was the reason they were removed. The crew involved were "uncomfortable" (or something similar) with their presence on board, based only on what they looked like, and the person had to be removed before the ...

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NorthTerminal

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

AS far as I know, UAL has never told anyone to get off the plane because they do not like my face. I admit it is not much of a face. However, should that situation arise, you get off the plane and seek yoru redress in the courts. When you refuse to comply, you ARE a safety risk and it would be irre...

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NorthTerminal

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

If I employ a thug to beat up a rival, in the eyes of the law I'm as guilty as the thug. The fact I didn't physically lay a hand on my rival means nothing. But if I employ an agent to perform a task and the agent gets carried away with the execution of said task, I will definitely have to share res...

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NorthTerminal

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Absolutely. I think it's time some people stop saying "United beat him up..." etc. They didn't touch him. They just instigated the whole thing, which obviously is a huge problem in itself. You're right, it is a pretty important distinction and now I feel a little contrite for being faceti...

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NorthTerminal

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

PlanesNTrains wrote:
Yes of course UA is responsible. I'm just saying that UA didn't rough him up.

So, they didn't rough him up, but are responsible for him being roughed up. Glad we have that sorted.

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NorthTerminal

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

In acknowledging that UA called for security to escort Dr. Dao off the plane when he wouldn't leave, thus causing this whole mess, can we also at least acknowledge that UA did not physically harm Dr. Dao? Does anyone really think they expected him to be roughed up? I'm assuming that they have done ...

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NorthTerminal

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

GlenP wrote:
Sorry, couldn't resist.

I suppose somebody had to

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NorthTerminal

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

The scorpion story...is it true? It appears to be, and UA is fair game on the news. When I fly, probably the last thing I expect to happen is to have a scorpion fall out of the overheads. You can't blame the media for the level of ineptness showby by United lately. Scorpion climbs into someone's ha...

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NorthTerminal

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

neutrino wrote:
Because they are clueless parrots.

Must be Norwegian Blue's

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NorthTerminal

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Yes, the law is on the side of the airline. Why do people keep saying this? This article is putting two legal experts in aviation law on record as saying that United had no legal right. I agree, it needs to be tested in court, but I still don't understand why there are still people posting that UA ...

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NorthTerminal

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Strange world where stating facts is teasing... I'm not sure you can represent your opinion as fact. The CoC does not make it clear that it was possible to remove the passenger under such circumstances, and as I and many have stated, you cannot simply decide that someone is a safety issue if there ...

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NorthTerminal

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-39599859

I think the media may well have reached the bottom of the barrel!

NorthTerminal

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

I feel really bad for United here, their branding is splashed all over an - admittedly unfortunate - incident that they had nothing to do with. The security personnel really should have called Police if they felt that level of force was required, but at least the clown won't think of arguing with a...

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NorthTerminal

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

What I don't like is rank hypocrisy regarding what we expect police to do. Maintain order, don't maintain order. But if we actually found a new way to board airplanes, that is fine, I am cool with it. There is a not insignificant difference between maintaining order and forecefully enforcing contra...

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NorthTerminal

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Didn't someone post earlier that one current contract stated IDB could happen "at any time" and "for any reason"? I think they should at least limit this to below 10,000ft ;) Up until now, I wouldn't be certain the UA crew would have offered you a chute ;-) If everyone agreed on...

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NorthTerminal

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Didn't someone post earlier that one current contract stated IDB could happen "at any time" and "for any reason"? I think they should at least limit this to below 10,000ft ;) Up until now, I wouldn't be certain the UA crew would have offered you a chute ;-) If everyone agreed on...

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NorthTerminal

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

The flight was not oversold, merely sold to capacity, a point already confirmed by OM, so the oversale or overbooking procedure does not apply in this instance. Seeing as the airline's CEO has already admitted that the passenger did nothing wrong, pretty much owning up to this being a cock-up on Un...

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NorthTerminal

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Do they really? I actually don't think customer service in the USA is that great... In some cases you get smiley folks, but that don't make good CS... And you have to pay for it, too (tipping, ugh!). But at least you don't have your steak take from your plate and given to a more important person an...

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NorthTerminal

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

That's fine unless like Dr Dao, you get more than you paid for.....ending up with three gorillas knocking you out and dragging u away. I was referring to travel industry salaries, which have been in relative decline for the last 20 years and will have an effect on staff quality, but I do like where...

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NorthTerminal

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Alas, pay peanuts, get monkeys :-( That's fine unless like Dr Dao, you get more than you paid for.....ending up with three gorillas knocking you out and dragging u away. I was referring to travel industry salaries, which have been in relative decline for the last 20 years and will have an effect on...

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NorthTerminal

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Reading this thread, i got the feeling that airlines workers have been brainwashed and think that acting like total bully, as they are always right, is the way to go.... I actually think you are right. It certainly comes across as a big chunk of the " what's wrong with air travel today " ...

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NorthTerminal

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

It seems in a world where an airline can not just beat up a passenger to enforce there view of a contract made between them and the passenger. Where do airline staff get the idea that a contract does not give rights? What do you think a contract is about? Yes, but the contract clearly states that a...

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NorthTerminal

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

frmrCapCadet wrote:
is a procedure for that, offer a big enough reward and passengers will step forward.

It's so simple, isn't it?!

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NorthTerminal

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

No, I am not crew. Don't even work for an airline. I do agree about the limitation. But not in this case. Had this been a "classic" overbooking situation I would argue differently. But as somebody pointed out earlier, it is the numbers game. Causing a few and very mild inconviniences in o...

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NorthTerminal

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Please read above. A ticket is a contract, not a right. Any contract can be revoked or altered. In such case compensation apllies to the other party involved. I could throw anybody out for any reason as long as I compensate the person and arrange alternative accomodation. It might not be the most s...

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NorthTerminal

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

But inside an aircraft you just never absolutely ever say no to what you are told to do. There has to be a limitation to this... the request has to be reasonable. It is not OK to forcibly remove someone from an aircraft because it is suddenly convenient for you to do so. Once that passgenger is sea...

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NorthTerminal

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Again, if the crew tells you to leave, you leave. it is not your call to judge on the issue while inside the aircraft. I will acknowledge I am not a lawyer but I fail to see any legal wrongdoing by the LEO. If you don't obey the crew you are in the wrong, period. Inside the aircraft the domestic au...

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NorthTerminal

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

The refusal became and is a safety issue. It simply does not matter the reason. I, too, think the whole situation was unfortunate and avoidable. But behaving like that is just never(!) the right thing to do. As such he displayed the he might be a risk and using force was very warrented IMHO. He was...

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NorthTerminal

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

And even this new video proves that the doctor remained calm, he wasn't a threat, he just declined an unreasonable request and subsequently disobeyed an unlawful order. If a request or an order is reasonable is not the call of any passenger aboard a comercial aircraft. If you are told to get up, yo...

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NorthTerminal

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Not really, as both involve a LEO making an unlawful demand. I am sort of playing devil's advocate here, as I do not really agree with United1, but understand the point that is being made that it is not sensible to disobey law enforcement for fear of having the disobedience beaten our of you. I dis...

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NorthTerminal

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

If a law enforcement officer shows up at my front door without a warrant, I can refuse to let him in. If he unlawfully then states that he will bust down the door if I refuse to let him in... I still legally do not have to let him in. Whether that is the best course of action to take for my persona...

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NorthTerminal

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

I agree completely that UA was in the wrong and that UA will end up paying for it. What im responding to is several posters saying they can ignore LEOs if they feel an order is invalid...you can't. This is a reasonable point, although civil disobedience is a valid form of protest in the free world.

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NorthTerminal

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

A business of any kind does have the right to ask you to leave for any reason or no reason at all... I suppose you have court decisions that legally justify your statement? A business can just dream up a reason? At one time this sort of thinking justified refusal of service based on how someone loo...

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NorthTerminal

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

hoya wrote:
So now if I'm a drunk and extremely disruptive passenger, can I resist being removed from a flight given that I am on board and paid for the seat? Slippery slope here...

That is a ridiculous strawman argument. That is a safety issue pure and simple and an entirely different matter.

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NorthTerminal

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

And even this new video proves that the doctor remained calm, he wasn't a threat, he just declined an unreasonable request and subsequently disobeyed an unlawful order. The owner of the aircraft asked the customer to leave. At that point, he was trespassing. Please tell me how the LEO's directive f...

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NorthTerminal

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

New video: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4405764/New-video-shows-United-passenger-s-argument-police.html#v-7285264965070767539 The officer is then heard in the video again asking Dr Dao to leave. 'No I am not going,' he replies, shaking his head angrily. The cop then says: 'Well… I have t...

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NorthTerminal

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Ever since I began working in the airline industry, I have always frowned upon the overbooking practice. I think it has the potential to give off a bad customer service experience regardless of the potential benefits. In the social media era one click and your company name and image will be dragged...

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NorthTerminal

Re: Another United gaffe - forces doctor off plane

Cubsrule wrote:
Plus, to the extent that "substitution of equipment of lesser capacity" is ambiguous, it would be interpreted against UA because UA drafted the contract.

Fair point, well presented

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