Search found 1000 matches

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 20
by sxf24
Fri Apr 17, 2020 4:39 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Rumor: CX to walk away from 777X order
Replies: 225
Views: 41549

Re: Rumor: CX to walk away from 777X order

If you’re not a lawyer, you shouldn’t pretend to interpret contracts. Clauses must be read as a whole, not with words or phrases isolated. Plus, the standard for “substantial” is not 30-35%. In numerous contracts I have read, that is what substantial is defined as, I know the IRS has a lower standa...

Jump to post
by sxf24
Fri Apr 17, 2020 2:42 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Boeing to Restart Washington State Aircraft Production
Replies: 144
Views: 19157

Re: Boeing to Stop Washington State Aircraft Production

Per Seattle Times, delay in restarting production was due to supply chain, having masks and other PPE, and other safety measures, such as temperature checks, in place.

Jump to post
by sxf24
Fri Apr 17, 2020 2:39 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: GECAS Cancels 69 737 MAX Orders
Replies: 17
Views: 7093

Re: GECAS Cancels 69 737 MAX Orders

those frames was supposed to go to which airline(s)? They weren’t placed, at least implied by GE’s statement. Per Boeing’s statement, this was necessary due to lower production rates. Reading between the lines, there were too many airplanes contracted versus the current production plan. While airli...

Jump to post
by sxf24
Fri Apr 17, 2020 2:35 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Rumor: CX to walk away from 777X order
Replies: 225
Views: 41549

Re: Rumor: CX to walk away from 777X order

Besides, if we read it your way, it’d apply to Boeing too and they could cancel. Under any cancellation scenario, Boeing keeps the PDPs as they fund work performed and parts purchased in advance of delivery. I don’t think any airline wants to go down that path, which is why mutually agreeable resol...

Jump to post
by sxf24
Fri Apr 17, 2020 12:58 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Rumor: CX to walk away from 777X order
Replies: 225
Views: 41549

Re: Rumor: CX to walk away from 777X order

I dont have any inside information to share on the speculation that started this thread. I would like to remind many posters on this thread that the aviation industry is in survival mode, plans that were in place 12 months ago are all invalid. Assumptions built into business cases are invalid. Cash...

Jump to post
by sxf24
Fri Apr 17, 2020 12:58 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Rumor: CX to walk away from 777X order
Replies: 225
Views: 41549

Re: Rumor: CX to walk away from 777X order

Here are facts that I know: - The SLB with BOC Aviation was not for 10 years Well how long was it for then? - CX can’t unilaterally cancel orders. It has to negotiate with the OEMs. Is the pretext for this thread not that CX is in these negotiations right now? The SLB is not for 10 years ;) Negotia...

Jump to post
by sxf24
Thu Apr 16, 2020 12:58 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: GOL cancels 34 737 MAX
Replies: 36
Views: 9838

Re: GOL cancels 34 737 MAX

I don't think the GOL order is evidence of that. If they had cancelled *all* outstanding MAX orders and replaced them with something else, I would agree with you. But all they did was *reduce* their order. I don't think it's evidence of using the downturn to get out of a junk airplane (though I agr...

Jump to post
by sxf24
Thu Apr 16, 2020 12:55 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Rumor: CX to walk away from 777X order
Replies: 225
Views: 41549

Re: Rumor: CX to walk away from 777X order

The Seattle Times article had many errors because Dominic Gates used ex-Boeing employees and bloggers as his sources. Here are facts that I know: - The SLB with BOC Aviation was not for 10 years - Any 77W lessor would love to extend leases right now and would probably cut rent to do so (this goes fo...

Jump to post
by sxf24
Wed Apr 15, 2020 11:54 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: GOL cancels 34 737 MAX
Replies: 36
Views: 9838

Re: GOL cancels 34 737 MAX

Long term fuel looks very low. Makes no sense to replace other aircraft with MAX . Airlines are better to prepay for fuel of they have cash and keep less fuel efficient planes. Doubt many airlines can do that but would still make more sense to buy cheap fuel than a new expensive plane. Airlines can...

Jump to post
by sxf24
Wed Mar 11, 2020 2:39 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Sale-leaseback on 788s for American
Replies: 42
Views: 11786

Re: Sale-leaseback on 788s for American

And what makes anyone think with all that’s happening in China that BOC won’t go the way of HNA group? Not that I think it’s likely but there may be other ‘safer’ lessors. Bank of China is one of the biggest banks in the world. BOC Aviation is a separately listed company that is based in Singapore....

Jump to post
by sxf24
Thu Mar 05, 2020 5:48 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Possible COVID-19 infection at Boeing Everett plant.
Replies: 45
Views: 8271

Re: Possible COVID-19 infection at Boeing Everett plant.

Boeing issued a statement to Seattle Times following the tweet that no employees have COVID. Of course, this could change. However, freaking out over “flu like symptoms” is not helpful.

Jump to post
by sxf24
Mon Feb 24, 2020 2:36 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Delta A221 Schedule Reliability struggle
Replies: 104
Views: 26179

Re: Delta A221 Schedule Reliability struggle

There are a number of component problems, which are not unusual with a new program. However, the supply chain is unable to keep up with spares and there does not appear to be a plan to redesign parts to improve reliability. Some fundamental problems that larger, mature programs aren’t facing.

Jump to post
by sxf24
Sun Feb 23, 2020 7:25 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Leeham News: Alaska Airlines should buy A321XLR
Replies: 44
Views: 8572

Re: Leeham News: Alaska Airlines should buy A321XLR

Why not? It opens up western Europe and many market in South America using narrow body. In addition, everybody knows the aerodynamic vantage of A321Neo need no MCAS. And much more others. Common sense please. The superior capabilities of A321Neo vs Max is already on the wall. Boeing can't fix this....

Jump to post
by sxf24
Thu Feb 20, 2020 6:06 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway
Replies: 1207
Views: 138969

Re: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway

My argument has always been about domestic gates. Which is exactly the opposite of what this partnership is about; international flights. Seattle sees the benefit of meaningful competition. If Alaska wants to take advantage of infrastructure challenges (alliance approval) without Seattle providing ...

Jump to post
by sxf24
Thu Feb 20, 2020 5:10 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway
Replies: 1207
Views: 138969

Re: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway

My argument is holding up, unlike your tables. Solely in the context of two airlines benefitting each other (Alaska and American) in a constrained airport, a viable future for the existing carriers at the airport will be lessened if Seattle airport does not keep up with demand. In light of this fac...

Jump to post
by sxf24
Thu Feb 20, 2020 4:47 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway
Replies: 1207
Views: 138969

Re: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway

To my understanding, Delta did not want to bottle-neck its own passengers at an antiquated IAF. That is their "reason" for no new international flights, but, of course, who knows the real reason: KE alliance? Not right aircraft? Second-thoughts on the Seattle hub, no real vision for Seatt...

Jump to post
by sxf24
Wed Feb 19, 2020 5:09 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway
Replies: 1207
Views: 138969

Re: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway

AS will be keeping a mileage-based program. I'd not make a long term bet on that. They kept it mile based as they needed to keep the program more appealing versus their competitors. Joining Oneworld negates that need to some degree and I'd expect AS's ranks would swell due to this difference (think...

Jump to post
by sxf24
Mon Feb 17, 2020 7:05 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway
Replies: 1207
Views: 138969

Re: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway

Delta has B777-200LR. Very capable to make routes like BLR work as the aircraft is already paid for. B789 might be lower operating cost, but it does not mean Delta does not have the aircraft to make the route work. The operating cost advantage of the 787-9 far exceeds the ownership cost benefits of...

Jump to post
by sxf24
Mon Feb 17, 2020 3:34 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway
Replies: 1207
Views: 138969

Re: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway

I am a (big) Delta fan, but I must bow to this big strategic move by AS and AA. This commands respect. I must say that I have started worrying for Delta in Seattle and Portland over the past days. I obviously don't have any data to support my reasoning but I will give my two :twocents: (please take...

Jump to post
by sxf24
Mon Feb 17, 2020 2:15 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway
Replies: 1207
Views: 138969

Re: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway

AA and AS are currently co-located at SFO in T2. It was my understanding that AA was going to move to the new portion of T1. I wonder if AA and AS will remain in T2 or co-locate in T1. AS is taking over entire T2(eventually). T1 does not have enough space for it. Actually, UA will be getting AA's o...

Jump to post
by sxf24
Mon Feb 17, 2020 12:28 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway
Replies: 1207
Views: 138969

Re: AA to make SEA an INT hub/launches SEA-BLR in Oct 20/AS to join OneWorld

AS had plans, It didn't work and its not on hold. Its dead. Some AS fan boys will blame it on the 737MAX delays And then you have some AS fan boys who actually believe this is growth. The ironic thing is DL wanted AS to join skyteam once upon a time and be the regional PNW feeder for them. AS refus...

Jump to post
by sxf24
Sun Feb 16, 2020 7:32 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway
Replies: 1207
Views: 138969

Re: AA to make SEA an INT hub/launches SEA-BLR in Oct 20/AS to join OneWorld

AS plan of being a national carrier appears to be on hold and they have retrenched to back to a west coast carrier and with the partnership with AA that was widening with AS plans now changing AA and AS can grow there relationship with OW giving AA the PNW option they were lacking and AS help in De...

Jump to post
by sxf24
Sun Feb 16, 2020 3:44 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway
Replies: 1207
Views: 138969

Re: AA to make SEA an INT hub/launches SEA-BLR in Oct 20/AS to join OneWorld

Make that three of us. What changed? Presidential administrations, for one. AS plan of being a national carrier appears to be on hold and they have retrenched to back to a west coast carrier and with the partnership with AA that was widening with AS plans now changing AA and AS can grow there relat...

Jump to post
by sxf24
Sun Feb 16, 2020 4:16 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway
Replies: 1207
Views: 138969

Re: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway

The Alaska-American strategy would be relegated only to Seattle and LAX whereby any diversions from that plan de-values/spreads thin the alliance plan. What point are you even making right now? Alaska joins Oneworld just to be locked into AA TPAC flights only when JAL and CX fly to Asia from nearly...

Jump to post
by sxf24
Sat Feb 15, 2020 4:14 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway
Replies: 1207
Views: 138969

Re: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway

Of course this is a win-win for both carrier from AS perspective. We will see about AA in a few years. DL made a huge tactical error in picking war with AA here. And AA in its anger decided to take a move that's clearly beneficial in short term, but is grooming a dangerous competitor in the long te...

Jump to post
by sxf24
Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:40 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway
Replies: 1207
Views: 138969

Re: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway

This is a true win-win for both carriers. AA gets bolstered by a strong West Coast network with great feed. AS gets to retain AA as a full earn/burn mileage partner, something that was due to end next month, while also gaining the ability to feed new international flights at SEA that DL doesn’t off...

Jump to post
by sxf24
Sat Feb 15, 2020 4:23 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway
Replies: 1207
Views: 138969

Re: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway

But a Delta-Alaska alliance back in the day would have right-sized the supply and demand in Seattle. With Delta's ambitions and the new Alaska-American alliance, Alaska may find its margins in a perpetual attack there in the long-run. Competition is good, but again, Alaska finds itself needing an a...

Jump to post
by sxf24
Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:52 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway
Replies: 1207
Views: 138969

Re: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway

On the flip side: While Delta may have underestimated the strength of Alaska, Alaska most certainly underestimated the direction of the industry and itself in it. I find it ironic that, to my understanding, shunning Delta's proposed exclusivity agreement alliance between them both (and subsequently...

Jump to post
by sxf24
Sat Feb 15, 2020 2:34 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway
Replies: 1207
Views: 138969

Re: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway

On the flip side: While Delta may have underestimated the strength of Alaska, Alaska most certainly underestimated the direction of the industry and itself in it. I find it ironic that, to my understanding, shunning Delta's proposed exclusivity agreement alliance between them both (and subsequently...

Jump to post
by sxf24
Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:19 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Report: Airbus set to settle corruption probe
Replies: 130
Views: 10201

Re: Report: Airbus set to settle corruption probe

Apparently Airbus got off the hook cheap. Not sure if this article was linked already in this thread: https://www.flightglobal.com/airframers/airbus-put-potential-damage-from-bribery-conviction-at-200bn/136488.article “Notwithstanding the seriousness of the conduct in this case, I consider the publ...

Jump to post
by sxf24
Sat Feb 01, 2020 9:30 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Report: Airbus set to settle corruption probe
Replies: 130
Views: 10201

Re: Report: Airbus set to settle corruption probe

You are condoning inappropriate behavior to win business. That is unacceptable. I’ve spent my entire career in multinational US and U.K. companies. While it is certainly possible to have individual violations, there has been consistently rigorous processes to discourage and prohibit bribes, particu...

Jump to post
by sxf24
Sat Feb 01, 2020 5:18 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Report: Airbus set to settle corruption probe
Replies: 130
Views: 10201

Re: Report: Airbus set to settle corruption probe

Your moral relativism is disgusting. I’ve lost sales because of a refusal to accept bribes, but I’ve also won business because integrity and ethics were recognized. At the end of the day, I need to live with my actions. Thank you for passing judgement. Do you know where I live? Do you know anything...

Jump to post
by sxf24
Sat Feb 01, 2020 4:54 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: AS/AAG posts 4Q and FY2019 earnings
Replies: 60
Views: 8477

Re: AS/AAG posts 4Q and FY2019 earnings

I think the merits of the A321neo in the AS network are overrated. Outside of DCA, the -900ER can usually do everything the A321neo can with 12 fewer pax and a lot less weight. The MAX 9/10 will narrow the performance gaps. The A320 reliability at AS is still below the 737 and operational excellence...

Jump to post
by sxf24
Sat Feb 01, 2020 4:46 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Report: Airbus set to settle corruption probe
Replies: 130
Views: 10201

Re: Report: Airbus set to settle corruption probe

I’m not going to share specifics outside of the fact it occurred in multiple countries were it was illegal. I'm not aware of any country where it isn't illegal. The reason I asked is because if your experiences don't include countries where bribery and corruption is the norm then refusing an odd br...

Jump to post
by sxf24
Sat Feb 01, 2020 2:57 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Report: Airbus set to settle corruption probe
Replies: 130
Views: 10201

Re: Report: Airbus set to settle corruption probe

I’ve been asked for bribes before and you say no. Out of interest, which countries was this in, for what approximate overall contract value and were there any other competing bidders? It's not just that you might lose a sale in some parts of the world, but that it's hardly even worth being consider...

Jump to post
by sxf24
Sat Feb 01, 2020 3:16 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Report: Airbus set to settle corruption probe
Replies: 130
Views: 10201

Re: Report: Airbus set to settle corruption probe

I would be reasonably confident that more contracts in these areas include bribes (/ gifts / off the books payments / call them what you like) than do not. It is the way that business has been done for many years. Boeing will have almost certainly done the same, as will RR, CFM and any number of ot...

Jump to post
by sxf24
Sat Feb 01, 2020 12:28 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Report: Airbus set to settle corruption probe
Replies: 130
Views: 10201

Re: Report: Airbus set to settle corruption probe

I would be reasonably confident that more contracts in these areas include bribes (/ gifts / off the books payments / call them what you like) than do not. It is the way that business has been done for many years. Boeing will have almost certainly done the same, as will RR, CFM and any number of ot...

Jump to post
by sxf24
Sat Feb 01, 2020 12:12 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Article: "Onward demand for the A380 is almost non-existent."
Replies: 82
Views: 18087

Re: Dr Peters: "Onward demand for the A380 is almost non-existent."

One thus has to wonder if the Hi Fly lease is a power by the hour one where rent is only paid when 9H-MIP is in the air. That said, if any of their frames were RR Trent, BA could have been interested as Heathrow can’t expand. The overall wide body glut isn’t helping either as older A330s and even 7...

Jump to post
by sxf24
Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:43 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: New Delta First Class Seats - A321neo
Replies: 120
Views: 20861

Re: New Delta First Class Seats - A321neo

LawAndOrder wrote:
It’s the same pitch as their other domestic first class folks. I think it’s just the one angle. It’s weird that delta hasn’t put an official statement out or more details.


The current pitch is tight, tighter than almost every other US operator except AA’s Oasis.

Jump to post
by sxf24
Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:01 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: DL201 JNB-ATL 777 diverts to MIA this morning
Replies: 38
Views: 7431

Re: DL201 JNB-ATL 777 diverts to MIA this morning

Q wrote:
Delta should switches from B777LR to Airbus 350. Maybe A350 is better performance than 777LR.

Q


Not on JNB.

Jump to post
by sxf24
Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:30 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Updated: Jetblue trims LGB further
Replies: 306
Views: 40542

Re: Jetblue senior leadership meeting at LGB

SFOtoORD wrote:
KlimaBXsst wrote:
B6 E195 fleet d/b/a as Alaska in a JV of LGB.
You heard it first (:


Haha B6 as a regional. Would be a real home run w that cost structure.


B6 has higher costs than AS, so I don’t see that working.

Jump to post
by sxf24
Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:30 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Washington State Aviation Thread - 2020
Replies: 108
Views: 13512

Re: Washington State Aviation Thread - 2020

Beginning in April per delta.com bookings, looks like Delta is bringing the CRJ back to SEA. This seems very backwards to me as Delta has indicated they wanted only the Embraer 175 in competitive markets on the west coast and east coast, and they wanted SEA/LAX to largely be CRJ free. Due to the tr...

Jump to post
by sxf24
Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:06 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft, UPDATE: HNA group revealed as buyer
Replies: 271
Views: 64824

Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

If it was an American company like DL wouldn’t they be required to notify the SEC and investors immediately? I thought these “undisclosed” customers always meant non-US Not until payments are made. Customers like Delta can get most likely get better terms on that. Thus allowing them to keep their p...

Jump to post
by sxf24
Mon Jan 06, 2020 1:19 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Does a 737 Max 10 really need MCAS?
Replies: 43
Views: 9930

Re: Does a 737 Max 10 really need MCAS?

Some of the things that would not pass muster: - Doors are too small - Aircraft sits too low - Seats / cabin floor G-forces rating - Archaic cables & pulleys flight control system - No EICAS .. and probably a bunch of other things. You have no clue what you’re talking about. None of those items...

Jump to post
by sxf24
Mon Jan 06, 2020 1:07 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020
Replies: 1740
Views: 191319

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

From industry comment and reading between the lines, RTS will treat new builds, built but undelivered and delivered differently. New builds Will have to incorporate all software and hardware changes before customer delivery. The other reason production has stopped. Already delivered Will have to in...

Jump to post
by sxf24
Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:44 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020
Replies: 1740
Views: 191319

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

From industry comment and reading between the lines, RTS will treat new builds, built but undelivered and delivered differently. New builds Will have to incorporate all software and hardware changes before customer delivery. The other reason production has stopped. Already delivered Will have to in...

Jump to post
by sxf24
Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:39 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Does a 737 Max 10 really need MCAS?
Replies: 43
Views: 9930

Re: Does a 737 Max 10 really need MCAS?

It cannot be certified except under an amendment to the existing 737 Type Certificate as it leverages systems and such that would not be allowed on a new type under current regulations. Out of curiosity, what are examples of systems on the 737 that wouldn’t pass modern scrutiny on new types in 2020...

Jump to post
by sxf24
Thu Jan 02, 2020 1:59 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: DL60/01JAN GIG-ATL N154DL double diversion
Replies: 28
Views: 8466

Re: DL60/01JAN GIG-ATL N154DL double diversion

I flew down on DL61/28DEC ATL-GIG and booked back on AA. It looks like it was a good idea in the end (despite the markedly lower level of inflight service from AA in J), as it seems like N154DL is also plowing the skies on the return last night - but diverted to POS and now SJU. Anyone know what is...

Jump to post
by sxf24
Thu Jan 02, 2020 2:37 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Minor dies on DL flight LAX-SEA
Replies: 32
Views: 12519

Re: Minor dies on DL flight LAX-SEA

The point discussing what happens post-landing is self promotion. All airlines have response teams to deal with these type of situations and family members are almost always receive similar treatment should they do desire. I think that talking about how great DL did in this situation insults the fa...

Jump to post
by sxf24
Wed Jan 01, 2020 8:18 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Delta launches operations center expansion in SEA
Replies: 25
Views: 5856

Re: Delta launches operations center expansion in SEA

WPvsMW wrote:
Knowing several in senior management at Port of Seattle, I can assure your that patronage is live and well, and airport planning experience is a distinctly lower factor in recruitment and promotion.


Yup. Port officials have often been guests of DL at Seahawks games.

Jump to post
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 20