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by OldAeroGuy
Thu May 02, 2019 3:47 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019
Replies: 3768
Views: 411997

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

So, we have 4 crews on 3 continents over 8 years in similar circumstances who all react initially in pretty much the same way (including all retract flaps). Why do you think that would be? Ray All of the crews can be faulted for not applying the Boeing procedure of not retracting Flaps after a stic...

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by OldAeroGuy
Thu May 02, 2019 3:36 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019
Replies: 3768
Views: 411997

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

I am sorry, but you're cheating by making damning assumptions before analysis. Lets try talking without prejudice. Regardless of further plans, ET302 crew would need to (1)climb out, (2)stabilize flight, (3)contact regional ATC. Whether vectors back to airport or to destination will be requested is...

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by OldAeroGuy
Thu May 02, 2019 2:21 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019
Replies: 3768
Views: 411997

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

So here comes "airmanship", aka deviation from the standard procedure - they need to maintain climb of at least - whatever it is for 737 with engine out, 1 or 2 degrees? That is not what airspeed disagree SOP would provide. Which means some of the following must be done to avoid CFIT: red...

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by OldAeroGuy
Thu May 02, 2019 5:56 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019
Replies: 3768
Views: 411997

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q2 2019

Well, we heard that. Can you calculate climb profile with gear and flaps out for that day's temperature ADD altitude and given terrain around? I still want to see how that would work. I've worked this out for you previously. Why do you keep bringing it up? 1) Climb profiles to avoid obstacles and c...

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by OldAeroGuy
Tue Apr 30, 2019 12:42 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q1 2019
Replies: 6476
Views: 746061

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

I understand the point of no retraction when you're slowing down, but this is about acceleration at almost full thrust, and overspeed could be an equal and bigger concern. Actually, they got into that - although not without many other events. Procedures are generally written as a one size fits all....

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by OldAeroGuy
Tue Apr 30, 2019 12:02 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q1 2019
Replies: 6476
Views: 746061

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Does the procedure mention anything about one or both stick shakers going off? Is a crew at liberty to determine that such procedure may not be appropriate when only one single shaker is active? For instance, when they have diagnosed the single stick shaker as false? I don't know of any Boeing appr...

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by OldAeroGuy
Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:44 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q1 2019
Replies: 6476
Views: 746061

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

I may be missing something, but I don't see them getting a problem cleaning up and going up to sort out the situation in a failsafe config - well, problem without MCAS at play. I've it explained it previously on this thread but here it goes again. When the stick shaker goes on at liftoff, the crew ...

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by OldAeroGuy
Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:18 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q1 2019
Replies: 6476
Views: 746061

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

With unclear conclusion that "keep configuration" SOP is applicable right after takeoff. Would be interesting to see what comes out of a sim session with reduced thrust, gear and flaps down and mountains straight ahead. I suspect we would have to praise the crew for their airmanship. Zeke...

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by OldAeroGuy
Mon Apr 29, 2019 6:40 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q1 2019
Replies: 6476
Views: 746061

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Gear was down when they got error message; and SOP assumes no configuration changes. Once you say "bring gear up", you already deviate from that. Good, glad to know you agree that they should be following standard procedures. For the 737, gear will add about 5% - 10% to overall drag at ta...

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by OldAeroGuy
Mon Apr 29, 2019 5:31 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q1 2019
Replies: 6476
Views: 746061

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Brought up many times. For me it is perfectly obvious: one pilot is fighting with yoke, the other is with trim wheel. Thrust is way lower in priority. Assuming trim would be actually movable, 30 seconds to return trim to a managable state, there would be no issue with overspeed or engine. As for &q...

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by OldAeroGuy
Mon Apr 29, 2019 5:18 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q1 2019
Replies: 6476
Views: 746061

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

I tried to bring it up before.. These are ballpark conditions for maintaining altitude. There is something specific in ET situation: hot and high airport with nearby mountains. Would those recommended conditions allow a safe climb above terrain? Yes, engine out performance should be such that they ...

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by OldAeroGuy
Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:55 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q1 2019
Replies: 6476
Views: 746061

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Stick shaker -> stall, IAS 250 kts, TOGA, but don't retract the flaps (with their nose down moment) while fighting unexplained nose down forces! .. yeah.. If an airlines average pilots aren't good enough to fly that aircraft, they better don't buy such aircraft. Please go back and review the JT610 ...

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by OldAeroGuy
Mon Apr 29, 2019 2:48 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q1 2019
Replies: 6476
Views: 746061

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Ok, fair enough. Then I am still confused by the "previously published MCAS fix description", specifically when it comes to what happens in an AoA disagree condition. I get that MCAS v2 will be automatically disabled somehow (welcome to automation 101), but what warning will be presented ...

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by OldAeroGuy
Mon Apr 29, 2019 2:36 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q1 2019
Replies: 6476
Views: 746061

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Stick shaker -> stall, IAS 250 kts, TOGA, but don't retract the flaps (with their nose down moment) while fighting unexplained nose down forces! .. yeah.. If an airlines average pilots aren't good enough to fly that aircraft, they better don't buy such aircraft. Please go back and review the JT610 ...

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by OldAeroGuy
Sun Apr 28, 2019 11:24 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q1 2019
Replies: 6476
Views: 746061

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Despite what the NASA PR says, a 737 MAX is too large for the facility. Getting accurate wind tunnel data and flow patterns requires that the model span be limited to about 75% of the test section width. If the wing tips are too close to the tunnel walls, the solid wall boundary prevents the flow n...

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by OldAeroGuy
Sun Apr 28, 2019 11:20 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q1 2019
Replies: 6476
Views: 746061

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

If the stick lightening differences are non appreciable to a human and the entry to and recovery from stall is not tangibly altered with or without MCAS, why is it there? Why wouldn't Boeing apply for a waiver on the stick force for such a purportedly negligible change in feel or in actual handling...

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by OldAeroGuy
Sun Apr 28, 2019 9:30 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q1 2019
Replies: 6476
Views: 746061

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

I doubt that Boeing was surprised with the amount of lift the nacelles were providing near stall. That is the sort of thing that is easy to determine, either by CFD or wind tunnel testing. I suspect the reason the MAX was having trouble passing FAR 25.203 was that the new engine size/position chang...

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by OldAeroGuy
Sun Apr 28, 2019 9:02 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q1 2019
Replies: 6476
Views: 746061

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

If the stick lightening differences are non appreciable to a human and the entry to and recovery from stall is not tangibly altered with or without MCAS, why is it there? Why wouldn't Boeing apply for a waiver on the stick force for such a purportedly negligible change in feel or in actual handling...

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by OldAeroGuy
Sun Apr 28, 2019 7:07 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q1 2019
Replies: 6476
Views: 746061

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thank BravoOne. If read completely, this should answer a lot questions posed on this Board and confirm what many have been expressing. Boeing said what they were already saying. Their opinion matters only that much by now; it is EASA and CAAC. And Boeing/WN effectively deny blowback effect here - w...

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by OldAeroGuy
Sun Apr 28, 2019 6:35 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q1 2019
Replies: 6476
Views: 746061

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thank BravoOne.

If read completely, this should answer a lot questions posed on this Board and confirm what many have been expressing.

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by OldAeroGuy
Sun Apr 28, 2019 4:31 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q1 2019
Replies: 6476
Views: 746061

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

There's an article on Business Insider today claiming airlines may switch to Airbus as it's an easier and safe plane to fly than Max 737 Blaming pilots for not responding well to incidents like this may backfire on Boeing long term Ie don't put the pilots in that position to fail again It's potenti...

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by OldAeroGuy
Sun Apr 28, 2019 11:41 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q1 2019
Replies: 6476
Views: 746061

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

is in higher g regions ( like a coordinated turn ) nearer 1.5g than 1g . Stick force requirements must be passed for both 1.0g flight and in turning flight. There's information that it looks like the 1.0g is pretty benign without MACS. With MCAS, 1.0g stall stick forces are probably a sure pass. I ...

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by OldAeroGuy
Sat Apr 27, 2019 11:54 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q1 2019
Replies: 6476
Views: 746061

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

I don't think this thread should become a facts-only discussion. The board is for discussion. However, I do have a modest suggestion for participants and the moderators: if you find yourself making 10-15 posts per page, sometimes up to half of the content, could you perhaps slow down? You may belie...

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by OldAeroGuy
Sat Apr 27, 2019 11:43 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q1 2019
Replies: 6476
Views: 746061

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

The nose just flopped down gently at the stall, and I initiated recovery as I would in most other airplanes I’ve flown,” he adds." All testing done at 1g. ( what GW? ) This is about worthless, isn't it? The relevant part of the flight envelope that needs to be touched by testing here is in hig...

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by OldAeroGuy
Sat Apr 27, 2019 11:35 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q1 2019
Replies: 6476
Views: 746061

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Please say why you think 2.5 deg is significant. Remember at the MCAS trim rate of .27 deg/sec, it takes about 9 secs for MCAS to travel 2.5 deg. I remember, so? 9 sec is quite fast. 2.5 is almost half of the entire trim range. And you are saying it is insignificant? I think you guys are at cross-p...

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by OldAeroGuy
Sat Apr 27, 2019 4:20 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q1 2019
Replies: 6476
Views: 746061

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

For sure, it would make the calculations and the post-stall analysis much more difficult, but my point is that the aviationweek article is far from proof that the MAX stall behavior is acceptable in all cases. As it stands it is just a PR smokescreen, quoted and re-quoted as if it answers everythin...

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by OldAeroGuy
Sat Apr 27, 2019 4:14 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q1 2019
Replies: 6476
Views: 746061

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Either way, judging from the amount of intervention that MCAS was designed to do, this behavior was not as innocent as you and OAG are trying to portray. I am relying on the pilot comments after stalling the MAX with MCAS off in the simulator and the lack of redundancy in the whole MCAS system, eit...

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by OldAeroGuy
Sat Apr 27, 2019 2:39 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q1 2019
Replies: 6476
Views: 746061

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

[quote="ArgentoSystems" Either way, judging from the amount of intervention that MCAS was designed to do, this behavior was not as innocent as you and OAG are trying to portray.[/quote] I am relying on the pilot comments after stalling the MAX with MCAS off in the simulator and the lack of...

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by OldAeroGuy
Sat Apr 27, 2019 2:27 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q1 2019
Replies: 6476
Views: 746061

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Correct me if I am wrong, but MAX wing is an NG wing, and there should be less surprises, not at the outboard portion of the wing... For a swept wing, the outboard portion of the wing is influenced by the inboard portion. The new nacelle and its position affects the inboard wing and thus impacts th...

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by OldAeroGuy
Sat Apr 27, 2019 2:20 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q1 2019
Replies: 6476
Views: 746061

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

You don't understand what "control lightening means". Normally if you are pitching up and you let go of elevator control, the airplane will return to level flight. Control lightening means aircraft loses this tendency to return to level at higher angles of attack. It will just stay at thi...

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by OldAeroGuy
Sat Apr 27, 2019 1:38 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q1 2019
Replies: 6476
Views: 746061

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

I doubt that Boeing was surprised with the amount of lift the nacelles were providing near stall. That is the sort of thing that is easy to determine, either by CFD or wind tunnel testing. I suspect the reason the MAX was having trouble passing FAR 25.203 was that the new engine size/position change...

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by OldAeroGuy
Sat Apr 27, 2019 12:45 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q1 2019
Replies: 6476
Views: 746061

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

morrisond wrote: Well the bizarre thing is MCAS isn't really needed to make the MAX safe - it's just needed MCAS to meet a specific regulation that the MAX was barely over on. It's pretty clear by now morrisond and OldAeroGuy are either engaged in astroturfing or self identify with Boeing to the po...

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by OldAeroGuy
Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:47 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019
Replies: 1441
Views: 370275

Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

No issue just so long as it's clear that the destruction was the blade out test, not the triple point testing.

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by OldAeroGuy
Fri Apr 26, 2019 6:15 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q1 2019
Replies: 6476
Views: 746061

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Are you proposing they complete their circuit and landing without withdrawing flaps? Or that they hold above the airport with flaps down? What if they have taken off at MTOW and are above MLW? If you aren't willing to consider a procedure that deals with all instances - and instead are constructing...

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by OldAeroGuy
Fri Apr 26, 2019 4:50 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q1 2019
Replies: 6476
Views: 746061

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Are you proposing they complete their circuit and landing without withdrawing flaps? Or that they hold above the airport with flaps down? What if they have taken off at MTOW and are above MLW? If you aren't willing to consider a procedure that deals with all instances - and instead are constructing...

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by OldAeroGuy
Fri Apr 26, 2019 2:18 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019
Replies: 1441
Views: 370275

Re: Boeing 777X Testing Thread - 2019

Maybe the 777-200LR/F is like a sumo wrestler. The 777-9 is at serious ballerina, she gained 30k lb empty weight over the 77W. 77W OEW: 370,000 lb / 167,829 kg 777X OEW 400,000 lb / 181,400 kg Apparently the lower wing loading of the 777X provides better control power at low speeds, during V1+ engi...

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by OldAeroGuy
Fri Apr 26, 2019 1:01 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q1 2019
Replies: 6476
Views: 746061

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Somebody else will have to explain the intricacies of why groundspeed and IAS are different. I would have a go myself, but I'm under enough pressure as it is.... :spin: Because ground speed is more indicative of KTAS (knots, true air speed) and KIAS (knots, indicated air speed) is what the airspeed...

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by OldAeroGuy
Fri Apr 26, 2019 12:41 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q1 2019
Replies: 6476
Views: 746061

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Because I'm afraid that MCAS is thirteenth strike of the clock - and now that one is worked out, but other twelve still need to be looked at. I don't think MCAS specific training is on order once that issue is fixed, but that doesn't mean the rest of the plane is in a good shape. It may be, but may...

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by OldAeroGuy
Thu Apr 25, 2019 10:28 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q1 2019
Replies: 6476
Views: 746061

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

They were above Vmo for most of the time - that is not within the normal flight envelope. Even at the time when they were slightly below Vmo they were 100 knots over the normal climb speed (which they tried to set at 238 Knots on the Autopilot). In any case in normal operation they would never get ...

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by OldAeroGuy
Thu Apr 25, 2019 6:45 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q1 2019
Replies: 6476
Views: 746061

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

additional documentation/training should address these problems. Some great insight from you throughout this thread. I've quoted those words above though as this is my major concern with Max 737 Are any of us happy that the safety of future Max 737 flights may revolve around the training of pilots ...

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by OldAeroGuy
Thu Apr 25, 2019 3:55 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q1 2019
Replies: 6476
Views: 746061

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thanks for the answer. That makes a lot clearer. It is just very interesting that this aircraft have three pitot tubes to determine wrong airspeed but only two AoA, at least on the 737 (thats at least as much as I understand). I wonder what the reasoning behind this is, as clearly 3 is better than ...

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by OldAeroGuy
Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:27 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q1 2019
Replies: 6476
Views: 746061

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

I'm voting to kill this thread. Watching the endless back-and-forth about stall-not-stall, stable-not-stable is painful. Can we maybe agree not to touch these? I mean by now you should know you are not going to change the other guy's mind... Let's not kill the thread. I think that people are still ...

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by OldAeroGuy
Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:24 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q1 2019
Replies: 6476
Views: 746061

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Yes, FAA definition of stability includes, among other things, the requirement that controls do not get lighter. Not quite right. Satisfying the speed stability requirements of FAR 25.173 & 175, requires an average stick force gradient of 1 lb per 6 kts. The stick force can get lighter for regi...

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by OldAeroGuy
Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:03 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q1 2019
Replies: 6476
Views: 746061

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

How is the redundancy on the 757? Modern FBW seem to have at least 3 probes and all the accidents and incidents related to probe failures seem to happen when 2 out of 3 fail similarly and therefore overrule the third probe. If they fail after each other then the aircraft just switches to alternate ...

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by OldAeroGuy
Thu Apr 25, 2019 12:49 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q1 2019
Replies: 6476
Views: 746061

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Very interesting. The only reason alternative law was not engaged was because 2 out of 3 sensors gave reasable values. This happened as both froze at the same time. I might be wrong here but it seems that a freezing of two or even three vanes is almost impossible close to the ground as at minus 35 ...

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by OldAeroGuy
Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:19 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q1 2019
Replies: 6476
Views: 746061

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Boeing and the FAA must have missed a way bigger source of error on their 737MAX certification process. This is a no go, because even if the pilots would have saved the two aircraft and reported the incidents, the grounding would have been absolutely justified as the frequency of this incidents are...

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by OldAeroGuy
Wed Apr 24, 2019 7:46 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi Q1 2019
Replies: 5479
Views: 743334

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Reducing thrust was another option. Thrust has a powerful effect on vertical performance. It does. But it points you downwards :) I think their fate was sealed after speed increased to the point where manual trim was unusable. There are pilot reports that that is not necessarily so at least with sm...

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by OldAeroGuy
Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:27 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi Q1 2019
Replies: 5479
Views: 743334

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

xmp125a wrote:
So once airspeed increased they were in hopeless situation. I would understand why they reenabled electrical trim, they knew they will gonna crash anyway with no vertical control of the plane.


Reducing thrust was another option. Thrust has a powerful effect on vertical performance.

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by OldAeroGuy
Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:08 pm
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q1 2019
Replies: 6476
Views: 746061

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

From the post above: * we do not know what exact findings lead to the increased authority of MCAS during flight testing Morrison and OldAeroGuy - we are still waiting for an answer to the above? Please can you re-assure us it's nothing to worry about and why Why do you keep asking the same question...

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