Search found 2603 matches

by RJMAZ
Tue Nov 09, 2021 9:36 pm
Forum: Military Aviation & Space Flight
Topic: Cruise Missiles
Replies: 52
Views: 4354

Re: Cruise Missiles

My current guess is that they would not be detected. A cruise missile doing the terrain following needs to be seen from above, and unless there is a fighter/awacs patrol in the air at the right moment, it won't be detected. Long range cruise missiles fly slow and have a multi hour flight time. A mi...

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by RJMAZ
Fri Nov 05, 2021 4:14 pm
Forum: Military Aviation & Space Flight
Topic: Best Large Cargo Plane is an IL-76M
Replies: 50
Views: 4753

Re: Best Large Cargo Plane is an IL-76M

Not to mention the total lack of professionalism on the part of many of these Eastern block operators.... This is my favourite il-76 video https://youtu.be/UZGXwbPfwQs They push their equipment to their limits just to match western equipment. Increase that MTOW another 20t and look at that climb ra...

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by RJMAZ
Thu Nov 04, 2021 8:52 pm
Forum: Military Aviation & Space Flight
Topic: Best Large Cargo Plane is an IL-76M
Replies: 50
Views: 4753

Re: Best Large Cargo Plane is an IL-76M

When it comes to heavy lifting and operating in harsh environment Soviet/Russian designs, both airplanes and helicopters, have been the most capable ones for decades. You mean Russian equipment operators have little or no safety procedures. They fly when the aircraft is broken. They will risk lives...

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by RJMAZ
Thu Nov 04, 2021 11:09 am
Forum: Military Aviation & Space Flight
Topic: Best Large Cargo Plane is an IL-76M
Replies: 50
Views: 4753

Re: Best Large Cargo Plane is an IL-76M

But my guess is like yours, that the Y-20 is an improvement over the 50 year old Il-76. I just wonder how much of an improvement. The Y-20 is far superior to the Il-76. I would put it second behind the Kawasaki C-2 if you want a large strategic airlifter. The C-2 has the widest cargo bay of all air...

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by RJMAZ
Tue Nov 02, 2021 8:55 pm
Forum: Military Aviation & Space Flight
Topic: Best Large Cargo Plane is an IL-76M
Replies: 50
Views: 4753

Re: Best Large Cargo Plane is an IL-76M

The IL76 would be like a rental van from Home Depot. Clapped out with a sticky steering wheel but only $25/hr to rent. Yes and the crash investigation for the IL-76 I posted above shows that there was no servicing paperwork for the engines. The global Il-76 fleet flying as a ticking time bomb is th...

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by RJMAZ
Tue Nov 02, 2021 3:53 am
Forum: Military Aviation & Space Flight
Topic: Best Large Cargo Plane is an IL-76M
Replies: 50
Views: 4753

Re: Best Large Cargo Plane is an IL-76M

Awesome catch. I should have listed the C-2. But is the C-2 really available? Yes it is available. They are pushing for the UAE order and they even did dirt runway testing after UAE requested it. It was also offered to New Zealand. All the major western countries have fresh C-17 or are locked into ...

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by RJMAZ
Mon Nov 01, 2021 10:56 pm
Forum: Military Aviation & Space Flight
Topic: Best Large Cargo Plane is an IL-76M
Replies: 50
Views: 4753

Re: Best Large Cargo Plane is an IL-76M

If you want a strategic airlifter the Kawasaki C-2 wins hands down. Purchase price: You will need two Ilyushins to do the job of one C-2 as you will always have an IL-76 grounded with a check engine light. So now the purchase price is comparable. Engine maintenance: The IL-76 would have needed 50+ e...

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by RJMAZ
Thu Oct 28, 2021 12:43 pm
Forum: Military Aviation & Space Flight
Topic: New J-20 Variant: A Two Seat Stealth Fighter
Replies: 30
Views: 5934

Re: New J-20 Variant: A Two Seat Stealth Fighter

The back seat might be controlling drones.

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by RJMAZ
Sun Oct 24, 2021 6:07 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Analyzing The Airbus A380’s Premature End
Replies: 226
Views: 56088

Re: Analyzing The Airbus A380’s Premature End

“The fact that from the very beginning they built weight into the airplane so they could do the -900 was a program mistake,” Leahy points out. “You just don’t build extra weight into the airplane so you can stretch it. You optimize the aircraft, and then you figure out how to stretch it by taking s...

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by RJMAZ
Sat Oct 23, 2021 11:41 pm
Forum: Military Aviation & Space Flight
Topic: T-7A Red Hawk News and Discussion Thread
Replies: 173
Views: 38338

Re: T-7A Red Hawk News and Discussion Thread

https://youtu.be/RXmM9jTl58A It is performing well I can't really compare to other fighter jets, but the T-7 cockpit looks spacious! It would be interesting to compare but I think it has to do with the wide angle lense on the cockpit camera. Also the fact the cockpit is so large in proportion to th...

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by RJMAZ
Sat Oct 23, 2021 5:04 am
Forum: Military Aviation & Space Flight
Topic: T-7A Red Hawk News and Discussion Thread
Replies: 173
Views: 38338

Re: T-X becomes T-7A Red Hawk

"Boeing is already looking at light attack and aggressor training opportunities for the aircraft and it says it has already identified locations for hardpoints under the wings." https://combataircraft.keypublishing.com/2019/09/09/report-says-boeing-saab-t-x-trainer-would-make-an-ideal-lig...

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by RJMAZ
Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:42 am
Forum: Military Aviation & Space Flight
Topic: China successful test of orbital hypersonic weapon
Replies: 53
Views: 5718

Re: China successful test of orbital hypersonic weapon

Amazing, Intel also using TSMC... Intel is buying wafer capacity at TSMC that would have been used to produce chips for competing companies like AMD and Nvidia.... This gives no indication of the capacity of any manufacturer. It simply allows intel to make even more profit and is a good business pr...

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by RJMAZ
Wed Oct 20, 2021 2:09 am
Forum: Military Aviation & Space Flight
Topic: China successful test of orbital hypersonic weapon
Replies: 53
Views: 5718

Re: China successful test of orbital hypersonic weapon

I don't claim to know everything about the microchips, perhaps just enough to be dangerous. You know just enough to act confident but also enough to give a real expert a very good laugh. Any report saying TSMC makes "92% of the world’s most sophisticated chips" is clearly designed to sell...

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by RJMAZ
Tue Oct 19, 2021 9:50 am
Forum: Military Aviation & Space Flight
Topic: China successful test of orbital hypersonic weapon
Replies: 53
Views: 5718

Re: China successful test of orbital hypersonic weapon

Same issue happening again dude, you actually need to research some of this before you barf trash. Save the insults but you are actually 100% incorrect. Don't feel bad as I have seen this mistake made many times before. The pie charts you posted is cherry picking. It is only for making advanced chi...

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by RJMAZ
Tue Oct 19, 2021 12:53 am
Forum: Military Aviation & Space Flight
Topic: China successful test of orbital hypersonic weapon
Replies: 53
Views: 5718

Re: China successful test of orbital hypersonic weapon

Perhaps the old US can do without chinese spades, shovels, lawn mowers, trinkets and even iphones. What they cannot do without are the microchips coming out of Taiwan. China kills the fabs in an invasion and everyone globally loses, no new electronic goods for the next 5 to 10 years in a lot of ind...

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by RJMAZ
Sun Oct 17, 2021 11:08 am
Forum: Military Aviation & Space Flight
Topic: China successful test of orbital hypersonic weapon
Replies: 53
Views: 5718

Re: China successful test of orbital hypersonic weapon

The US defense black budget in the trillions per year in my opinion proves its superiority. Not saying that's a good thing; just saying it's true. It is about $60-70 billion per year. To put that into perspective, in just one year the black budget is large enough to fully develop the Eurofighter Ty...

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by RJMAZ
Sun Oct 17, 2021 8:04 am
Forum: Military Aviation & Space Flight
Topic: China successful test of orbital hypersonic weapon
Replies: 53
Views: 5718

Re: China successful test of orbital hypersonic weapon

Why does everyone think this will be great war which is easy to win? It did not work in Korea, Vietnam and the Middle East as well as with the trade war. Because there isn't a land border where tanks and soldiers can just cross the border like in every war you mentioned. Every Chinese ship will be ...

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by RJMAZ
Sun Oct 17, 2021 4:27 am
Forum: Military Aviation & Space Flight
Topic: China successful test of orbital hypersonic weapon
Replies: 53
Views: 5718

Re: China successful test of orbital hypersonic weapon

There is no way to stop China from taking Taiwan if they decided to absolutely do it. The USA is committed to protect them so any such strike by China would need to be over whleming and complete such that there was no ability t assist and defend any remaining Taiwanese forces. I don't even know if ...

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by RJMAZ
Sun Oct 17, 2021 3:13 am
Forum: Military Aviation & Space Flight
Topic: China successful test of orbital hypersonic weapon
Replies: 53
Views: 5718

Re: China successful test of orbital hypersonic weapon

I love how the word hypersonic is thrown around to make it seem superior. Hitler's V2 rocket was also a hypersonic orbital weapon. The US has thousands of "hypersonic" interceptor weapons. Most of the long range SAM missiles reach hypersonic speeds and can reach the altitude to qualify as ...

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by RJMAZ
Sat Oct 16, 2021 6:07 am
Forum: Military Aviation & Space Flight
Topic: Boeing KC-46 News, Production and Delivery Thread - 2021
Replies: 120
Views: 29747

Re: Boeing KC-46 News, Production and Delivery Thread - 2021

Are the F-117's officially back? I thought they were just doing 'aggressor' squadrons via a contractor. Rumour is they are now flying unmanned. The F-117 has the most simple mission profile and it would be the easiest to fully automate. It would work great for highly defended targets that needed a ...

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by RJMAZ
Tue Oct 12, 2021 6:24 am
Forum: Military Aviation & Space Flight
Topic: Engine choices for the future C-17 replacement?
Replies: 80
Views: 5232

Re: Engine choices for the future C-17 replacement?

Question: Using more, smaller aircraft adds flexibility, but doesn't it also add cost? Assuming you can fill both aircraft, doesn't a larger aircraft move freight at a lower cost per ton-mile? Yes and no. If all designs are a cleansheet then the larger aircraft is probably cheaper per ton-mile. But...

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by RJMAZ
Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:43 am
Forum: Military Aviation & Space Flight
Topic: Engine choices for the future C-17 replacement?
Replies: 80
Views: 5232

Re: Engine choices for the future C-17 replacement?

There are 222 C-17s and 52 C-5s in the inventory. I don't see how the USAF is going to afford 500 aircraft of a similar size. Or have I missed something? And if it's smaller (or a tiltrotor) how does it move an Abrams tank? It would be smaller with low running costs and high economy of scale provid...

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by RJMAZ
Mon Oct 11, 2021 8:25 am
Forum: Military Aviation & Space Flight
Topic: Engine choices for the future C-17 replacement?
Replies: 80
Views: 5232

Re: Engine choices for the future C-17 replacement?

I'm very interested in the fuselage size and cross section of the C-17 and C-5M replacement. Vehicles like the Oshkosh L-ATV at 2.5m wide and the Stryker at 2.7m wide make it near impossible to fit two vehicles in the width. It might be worth just letting go of the oversize role and go long and skin...

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by RJMAZ
Sun Oct 10, 2021 12:01 pm
Forum: Military Aviation & Space Flight
Topic: What is your favourite military aircraft of the world war 2 era ?
Replies: 21
Views: 2397

Re: What is your favourite military aircraft of the world war 2 era ?

The P-38 is the only aircraft I would want to be in during WW2. Impossible to defeat in the hands of a good pilot. The speed and climb rate was exceptional.

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by RJMAZ
Sun Oct 10, 2021 7:01 am
Forum: Military Aviation & Space Flight
Topic: Engine choices for the future C-17 replacement?
Replies: 80
Views: 5232

Re: Engine choices for the future C-17 replacement?

Is that true? The GTF is something like a 15% improvement in fuel consumption. The GEnX is supposed to be 15% better in fuel consumption than it's predecessor. Yes. The TF33-P-3 engine for used on the B-52 burns 0.82lb of fuel for every pound if thrust. The Trent 700 on the A330 burns only 0.562 lb...

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by RJMAZ
Sun Oct 10, 2021 4:16 am
Forum: Military Aviation & Space Flight
Topic: Engine choices for the future C-17 replacement?
Replies: 80
Views: 5232

Re: Engine choices for the future C-17 replacement?

How much different would we expect a C-17 replacement to look, does the C-17 bear any resemblance to the C-41 or even the C-5? Other than engines and avionics, I assume the replacement will look like the existing a/c but have much more composite materials, now how much more can the OEM charge for s...

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by RJMAZ
Sun Oct 10, 2021 3:47 am
Forum: Military Aviation & Space Flight
Topic: Engine choices for the future C-17 replacement?
Replies: 80
Views: 5232

Re: Engine choices for the future C-17 replacement?

The C-17 fits USAF needs so perfectly that a reengine is highly likely, or at least a life extension. The engines offered for Boeing's NMA would be perfect, in particular RR's Ultrafan looks very promising towards the end of the decade. The chance of the C-17 getting new engines is zero. Engine tec...

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by RJMAZ
Sat Oct 09, 2021 8:36 am
Forum: Military Aviation & Space Flight
Topic: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion
Replies: 277
Views: 73848

Re: Second tier advanced fighter projects news and discussion

Old news but indicative of the state of the TF-X programme... Turkey asks US to buy 40 Lockheed Martin F-16 jets https://www.dailysabah.com/business/defense/turkey-asks-us-to-buy-40-lockheed-martin-f-16-jets-sources/amp Turkey knows it's going to be a long time until they have their 5th gen fighter.

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by RJMAZ
Fri Oct 08, 2021 11:07 pm
Forum: Military Aviation & Space Flight
Topic: FARA US Army Proposals Thread
Replies: 105
Views: 28853

Re: FARA US Army Proposals Thread

The V-280 is now getting more powerful Osprey engines. I think the MTOW of the design will be much higher than is currently listed. The V-280 being three quarters of the size of the V-22 and having no wing folding mechanism should allow it to have excellent range while taking off vertical. https://w...

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by RJMAZ
Fri Oct 08, 2021 4:26 am
Forum: Military Aviation & Space Flight
Topic: Engine choices for the future C-17 replacement?
Replies: 80
Views: 5232

Re: Engine choices for the future C-17 replacement?

If that is the requirement there are multiple ways to solve it. A C-17 sized can land vehicles straight to a dirt strip. The C-5M can land twice as many vehicles to a civilian runway. Both aircraft brand new today might cost a very similar price per aircraft due to the STOL and austere performance a...

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by RJMAZ
Thu Oct 07, 2021 2:03 am
Forum: Military Aviation & Space Flight
Topic: Engine choices for the future C-17 replacement?
Replies: 80
Views: 5232

Re: Engine choices for the future C-17 replacement?

Spot on GalaxyFlyer. I also think the US severely underestimates it's capabilities and overestimates it's adversaries to continue to get massive funding. The supporting assets like tankers and transports these have all been purchased decades ago. Any country starting from scratch has to buy all thes...

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by RJMAZ
Wed Oct 06, 2021 9:07 pm
Forum: Military Aviation & Space Flight
Topic: Engine choices for the future C-17 replacement?
Replies: 80
Views: 5232

Re: Engine choices for the future C-17 replacement?

How does the US get sustained air superiority over Beijing? China has 2000 air force aircraft, and a large number of land based missiles. The nearest plausible US air bases are 600 mile away, and I have a hard time imagining US tankers surviving over China. If the US floods S Korea with all these l...

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by RJMAZ
Wed Oct 06, 2021 8:32 pm
Forum: Military Aviation & Space Flight
Topic: Engine choices for the future C-17 replacement?
Replies: 80
Views: 5232

Re: Engine choices for the future C-17 replacement?

Surely the Iraqi army had more than 5000 soldiers stationed in Bagdad. Even more when they see the 500 large tiltrotors. They would land at night. Armoured vehicles have a force multiplier effect. 5,000 soldiers with 500 medium armoured vehicles could easily dominate 50,000 soldiers without armour....

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by RJMAZ
Wed Oct 06, 2021 9:40 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Updated: Qantas selects A320neo and A220 families for narrowbody fleet replacement
Replies: 507
Views: 110047

Re: Qantas to officially issue tender on narrowbody fleet replacement in coming days

I think the 737-10 will win as the 737-800 replacement. It is the most efficient aircraft per seat on short routes. The 737-800 has 175 seats in a 2 class cabin. The 737-10 would be very efficient with a 196-198 seat 2 class cabin.

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by RJMAZ
Wed Oct 06, 2021 7:53 am
Forum: Military Aviation & Space Flight
Topic: Engine choices for the future C-17 replacement?
Replies: 80
Views: 5232

Re: Engine choices for the future C-17 replacement?

What was the most common mission for Marine MV22s during Afghanistan? The MV-22 couldn't do MVM as it could only transport two squads or a jeep sized vehicle and one squad. It was just working like a long range blackhawk. If the USAF put 500 large tiltrotors beyond enemy lines into the enemies capi...

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by RJMAZ
Wed Oct 06, 2021 3:32 am
Forum: Military Aviation & Space Flight
Topic: Engine choices for the future C-17 replacement?
Replies: 80
Views: 5232

Re: Engine choices for the future C-17 replacement?

I really liked this post. I think that's a great argument for the future tiltrotor. But I have doubts. How much of the future tiltrotor will be the mission you outlined, and how much will be just moving palleted cargo from one safe runway to another? Because year after year, that's the C-130s missi...

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by RJMAZ
Tue Oct 05, 2021 6:22 pm
Forum: Military Aviation & Space Flight
Topic: Engine choices for the future C-17 replacement?
Replies: 80
Views: 5232

Re: Engine choices for the future C-17 replacement?

This two aircraft replacement would be great ... if large quad tiltrotors had an operating budget less than a ton of gold per hour. Seriously, sounds great but a C-130 costs $9000/hour and the much smaller MV-22 costs $17000/hour. That's (round numbers) twice as much for half the aircraft. The CMV-...

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by RJMAZ
Tue Oct 05, 2021 9:14 am
Forum: Military Aviation & Space Flight
Topic: Engine choices for the future C-17 replacement?
Replies: 80
Views: 5232

Re: Engine choices for the future C-17 replacement?

I think your right that to carry the same payload we would now use smaller engines. But military requirements keep growing and armories fighting vehicles and cargo demand continues to grow. Compare the C-141 Starlifter at 40k thrust per wing with the C-17s 80k thrust per wing. Both were the main ca...

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by RJMAZ
Tue Oct 05, 2021 4:30 am
Forum: Military Aviation & Space Flight
Topic: Engine choices for the future C-17 replacement?
Replies: 80
Views: 5232

Re: Engine choices for the future C-17 replacement?

The 97t A321NEO carries payload the same weight and distance as the 115t 757. A cleansheet C-17 replacement with the same payload/range would probably be 80% of the weight and total thrust. So a 110t OEW and 220t MTOW would be about right. The design would want a thrust to weight ratio higher than a...

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by RJMAZ
Mon Oct 04, 2021 5:05 pm
Forum: Military Aviation & Space Flight
Topic: Lockheed reveals new LMXT refueling tanker
Replies: 334
Views: 45042

Re: Lockheed reveals new LMXT refueling tanker

As I replied before someone took a machete to this thread, 125T is not a realistic OEW unless you have a fully equipped passenger interior and windows. It looks like it has windows to me. https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTqP0peIX4mocltxymfiQ45Dm6LQ8P4FRQbrQ&usqp=CAU You hav...

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by RJMAZ
Mon Oct 04, 2021 11:11 am
Forum: Military Aviation & Space Flight
Topic: Lockheed reveals new LMXT refueling tanker
Replies: 334
Views: 45042

Re: Lockheed reveals new LMXT refueling tanker

The briefing clearly states the WV80, which is 238 tonnes MTOW, LM on their website state for the LMXT it is 242 tonnes and fuel offload of 124 tonnes. No they state fuel capacity not fuel offload. 242t MTOW minus 125 OEW gives only 117t fuel capacity. Airbus has clearly put in a big extra fuel tan...

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by RJMAZ
Mon Oct 04, 2021 10:42 am
Forum: Military Aviation & Space Flight
Topic: Lockheed reveals new LMXT refueling tanker
Replies: 334
Views: 45042

Re: Lockheed reveals new LMXT refueling tanker

This thread is about LMXT, you are posting non factual information regarding LMXT. The LMXT specifications are here https://www.lockheedmartin.com/en-us/products/lmxt--the-next-strategic-tanker.html In particular what you have been posting non factual is their declared fuel offload is 124 tonnes, M...

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by RJMAZ
Mon Oct 04, 2021 6:03 am
Forum: Military Aviation & Space Flight
Topic: Lockheed reveals new LMXT refueling tanker
Replies: 334
Views: 45042

Re: Lockheed reveals new LMXT refueling tanker

If I were to spec it out, I would go for an A330-200 based variant with the highest MTOW option available and the NEO RR engines assembled and supported in Indy. Fitting the new engines is critical for Airbus to win in my opinion. https://i.imgur.com/HnUnjKw.jpg Here is the fuel burn figures. The K...

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by RJMAZ
Thu Sep 30, 2021 10:30 pm
Forum: Military Aviation & Space Flight
Topic: Blue Origin offers NASA $2 billion in last-ditch attempt at lunar lander contract
Replies: 41
Views: 6517

Re: Blue Origin offers NASA $2 billion in last-ditch attempt at lunar lander contract

I’ve had enough of them. Industry doesn’t need this nonsense in it You finally see the light. From the other Bezos thread I wrote this statement about their sub orbital hop. Blue origin is a joke of a company. Stunts like this are meant to bring in new investment to continue the scam for a few more...

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by RJMAZ
Thu Sep 30, 2021 9:48 am
Forum: Military Aviation & Space Flight
Topic: Rafale for Greece
Replies: 16
Views: 4330

Re: Rafale for Greece

Are the extra 6 aircraft second hand? That would bring the order to 18 second hand and 6 new jets. This is a brilliant sales strategy for France. Instead of paying for an avionics upgrade for their early Rafale aircraft they sell them second hand and buy brand new aircraft with the newer avionics. F...

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by RJMAZ
Wed Sep 29, 2021 4:26 am
Forum: Military Aviation & Space Flight
Topic: KC-46 now cleared to operationally refuel some aircraft
Replies: 69
Views: 8773

Re: KC-46 now cleared to operationally refuel some aircraft

That is Big Apple style baloney right there... https://www.airforce-technology.com/uncategorised/newsraaf-kc-30a-mrtt-refuels-usaf-f-16cs-during-pitch-black-16-exercise-4976530/ USAF seemed happy for KC-30 to drag six F-16Cs from Japan to Darwin in 2016 and then refuel them all on exercise but hey,...

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by RJMAZ
Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:22 am
Forum: Military Aviation & Space Flight
Topic: KC-46 now cleared to operationally refuel some aircraft
Replies: 69
Views: 8773

Re: KC-46 now cleared to operationally refuel some aircraft

It's 99% Boeings fault. They made promises, and failed. There are no *significant* requirement changes. You are completely wrong. I agree with frmrCapCadet and CX747 that a large portion of the blame is on the USAF. The Airbus system also fails the USAF requirements. The USAF requirement was simply...

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by RJMAZ
Mon Sep 27, 2021 9:31 pm
Forum: Military Aviation & Space Flight
Topic: New defence pact AUUKUS
Replies: 419
Views: 42371

Re: New defence pact AUUKUS

You need to do some reading tugg, its about fueling everything not just your car. I think you need to do the reading. Hydrogen is extremely inefficient. For heating the electrical energy generated can go straight to electric heaters. To use the electric energy to make hydrogen and then use the hydr...

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by RJMAZ
Fri Sep 24, 2021 4:15 am
Forum: Civil Aviation
Topic: Airbus 32X NEO program: why no length adjustment?
Replies: 58
Views: 11283

Re: Airbus 32X NEO program: why no length adjustment?

The A320 fits 150 seats perfectly in 2 class. The A321 fits 200 seats perfectly in 2 class. United Airlines A320 150 seats Air Canada A320 146 seats Qatar A320 144 seats Perfect for 3 flight attendants I'm not sure why all the emphasis is on the max economy seat number and that it has to be near 150...

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by RJMAZ
Wed Sep 22, 2021 6:39 am
Forum: Military Aviation & Space Flight
Topic: New defence pact AUUKUS
Replies: 419
Views: 42371

Re: New defence pact AUUKUS

I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just saying you can buy brand new submarines for $600M, which is think is less then the $1B cost to refurbish each Collins. The cost of doing an Engineered Refueling Overhaul (ERO) of the Los Angeles subs is $406 million. The cost of a new Virginia class sub is over...

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