If Boeing upped the MTOW, a 777-9ER with another 12t of payload or 1000nm range? I don’t know if they will bring the same 777-8F weights across to the passenger aircraft, one of the ways they can increase weights on freighters is to reduce the passenger version LOV down, and trade service life for ...
Jump to postAnd that space probably already has one or two of the 30 pallets intruding in it. Freighters don’t stop loading pallets at “door 4” (in quotes because the A350F won’t have a door 4). The taper of the A350F starting around door 4 may be that the last two pallets are actually single file and not abre...
Jump to postSYD330 wrote:Still no replacement in sight for the Dash 8's, I bet ATR-72 is on the list
Why the 777 has one more pallet is likely due to its width. At the very rear it can squeeze in one more pallet at 1 abreast. At that point just ahead of the aft pressure bulkhead the narrower A350 has likely tapered too much to fit a pallet. In your spare time have a look at a photo of a rear galle...
Jump to postamdiesen wrote:
/* noted: I have been posting the thesis that purchase price is over emphasied and should be viewed within context of asset life, variable TCO, and revenue generation over time
That doesn’t explain the A359s. French Bee’s for example, has 411 seats, with 326 (out of maximum 330) between D2-D4. 5 rows in back are 9 Y. And looking at the diagram posted in section 2.5 of the link it sure does look like the fuselage is tapering before D4 and after D1 up front. Looking at ACAP...
Jump to postYou are now assuming a difference in 35t or 40t in OEW between the A350 and the 777XF. That's more than I have seen anyone suggesting before. If you put into Fred’s calculator spreadsheet, with the payload, range, and MTOW that we know about, the OEWs that arrive at the MTOWs is around 132 tonnes f...
Jump to postI don’t know if that is necessarily true though. Again I point out 10Y A350 operators, who have 9Y at the last couple of rows. There is no reason to do that if the cross section is staying constant. French Bee have 480 seats installed (https://www.frenchbee.com/sites/default/files/2022-01/plan_cabi...
Jump to postPelly wrote:Even the larger AMX/AML/AMJ would have less volume. The LD3 would add ~6m3. So 653+6m=659m3 as the 777F baseline.
Even the larger AMX/AML/AMJ would have less volume. The LD3 would add ~6m3. So 653+6m=659m3 as the 777F baseline. I should stick to my read-only pledge. All this minutiae is getting tedious, but I couldn't pass up the opportunity to learn from Zeke. 2.6.2 in the 777F ACAPS shows going from 96x125 p...
Jump to postI know I said read-only, but i am curious about this. When I shared the Boeing numbers earlier you said you were not interested in water volume, now the same figures are understated. What layout would FedEx use? FedEx would use AADs on the main deck and LD3s under the floor. https://www.fedex.com/c...
Jump to postYou never responded to the thought that all of the 350F containers may not be the same size given the taper in the Airframe per the diagrams in the ACAP's. What do you make of that? They consider the cross section constant on the A350 from door 1 o door 4, if there is cargo loaded ahead or behind t...
Jump to postPelly wrote:Good catch. Thank you for bringing it to my attention, I will have to find an email for the Boeing webmaster for them to correct this wrong figure of 653m3.
Pelly wrote:Zeke in your linked document, page 32 Boeing also says 396 t MTOW for the PW as option 2. It doesn't matter, I concede you are right Zeke. Will switch to read only on this thread and leave it to the experts.
It says 71m3 more than the 777F, the 777F is 653m3 (652.7m3) to be precise according to Boeing's website. Do you have your own calculation for the 777F? That way I can also ignore Boeing's figures for the 777F and also go with your calculations. The 777F can carry more the 653 cu.m, that is also on...
Jump to postI will ignore the Airbus PDF of 653+71=724m3 The Airbus PDF does not say that, the 653 figure is not listed at all. ignore the SQ press release figure of 728m3. The same press release says the 744F with P&W 4056 engines has MTOW of 395 tonnes Boeing says 362 or 367 tonnes Maximum payload of 116...
Jump to postIt is just not logical that the smaller cross section of the A350 upper lobe will have larger pallet contours vs the 777F. The cross section is not the issue, the issue is how efficiently the volume that is available is being used. The 777 does have a wider fuselage of 6.2 m, however it makes less ...
Jump to postPelly wrote:Zeke where do you get 20.28m3 per ULD positions for the A350 upper lobe?
In the same Airbus link many people have been using (https://www.airbus.com/sites/g/files/jlcbta136/files/2022-01/Airbus-A350F-Facts-and-Figures-January-2022.pdf) Airbus specifically says the A350F has the same volume as the 744F. If it was 40m3 higher (that’s basically 2 main deck pallets, based o...
Jump to postI’ve just figured it out, and please accept my apologies. The numbers I presented was based on the 777F, not the 778F. So it is, after all, around 691 cbm vs 764 cbm. Which makes a hell of a lot more sense! This is the best I can work out at the moment 744F 23x21.2=487.6 5x17.4=87 2x15.3=30.6 9x11=...
Jump to postDo you have a link to verify that? Per forum rules if you post a statement that has a definitive fact you must have a supporting link. Otherwise it is opinion. Thanks. Another member had generously provided a link earlier on this thread where you can model different scenarios for the A350F and 777-...
Jump to postThe cargo area is 10% larger by area for the 778F and yet you are claiming there is no difference in actual volume of cargo that can be carried? Is that what you are claiming? If you look at this link as introduced by another member earlier in the thread https://www.airbus.com/sites/g/files/jlcbta1...
Jump to postSomeone else speculated on what a higher MTOW might mean for the passenger 777-9. I am wondering the same thing. Probably nothing, take the 77F for example when they increase the weights they reduced the design life of the aircraft, the passenger version has a LOV of 60,000 cycles and the freighter...
Jump to postMoKa777 wrote:Airbus published the MTOW for the A350F as 319 tonnes on their website. MLW is 250 tonnes.
https://aircraft.airbus.com/en/aircraft ... -freighter
DenverTed wrote:What are the OEW on both? A350 maybe 140t and 777 maybe 165t?
A350 mtow 319 - payload 109 = 210 - 140 = 70t fuel for 109t at 4700nm
B777 mtow 352 - payload 118 = 234 - 165 = 69t fuel for 118t at 4400nm
You can’t divide 71 by 3.5 and say that is the pallet volume on the main deck. The A350 has 5 additional pallets over the 777F: 3 on the main deck and 2 on the lower deck. I doubt when doing the comparison Airbus suddenly forget the lower decks exist. That 71 m3 is the volume of those 5 pallets. Th...
Jump to postYour premise is correct but the mechanism is wrong. The obvious answer is the 777 is comparatively heavier to the A350 because it has a metallic fuselage. No.matter how good you are you can not make a metal frame lighter than a well designed composite frame. There would be a good chance your metal ...
Jump to postI’m not sure about Airbus’s calculations but the ~652m3 from Boeing for the 777F is volume of pallets, not the water volume. Since Airbus says in Pelly’s link “71 m3 ~3.5 pallets” I assume they are not talking about water volume either. Since the A350F hold +3 main deck pallets and +2 lower deck pa...
Jump to postZeke, I was going by Airbus' own numbers https://www.airbus.com/sites/g/files/jlcbta136/files/2022-01/Airbus-A350F-Facts-and-Figures-January-2022.pdf which states 71m3 more than the 777F. In your calculation you are assuming that the A350 will have all 30 main deck pallets with the same contour and...
Jump to postWhat's the difference between revenue payload and structural payload? All the weight of the pallets and containers and hooks to hold them down? If those weigh 5.7t on the 777-8F, I assume they weigh close to that on the 777-F and A350F. 109t - 5.5t = 103.5t revenue payload for the A350F? Yes, corre...
Jump to postWait, I'm kind of confused. The Boeing presentation said that the 777-8 and 744F both have identical payload in tons. However, i looked at the website but it says 112.3 tons for the 777-8. https://www.boeing.com/commercial/freighters/index.page Is it a typo or is it the actual spec? Because it is s...
Jump to postSince the A350 is not as wide as a 777 (by at least a foot) will the "10 ft "pallets be contoured more on the A350 losing a little volume vs a 777 pallet? They fit two side by side, the A350 is not circular, it is taller than wider, the walls are flatter. I think the A350 main deck door i...
Jump to postOn Boeing's website 777F volume is 652.7 m3, 777-8F volume is 766.1m3. Airbus' linked document has the A350F volume at 71m3 more than the 777F which would make it ~723.7m3. That would make the difference about 5.8% between the A350F and 777-8F in terms of volume. I get less than 3% difference https...
Jump to postDetails of forward crew rest here: https://www.google.com/search?q=floor+plan+777+crew+rest+area&tbm=isch&client=ms-android-tmus-us-revc&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi3wsCV79z1AhWXAzQIHZn1DvIQrNwCKAB6BQgBENoB&biw=384&bih=678#imgrc=upbRsdgjNAGGBM bt That’s the passenger aircraft...
Jump to postikolkyo wrote:Crew rest is probably set up similar to the 777F, with a galley, seats and beds right behind the cockpit.
The 777-8F is 232'6" according to Boeing's website, so it's stretched compared to the original 777-8 length. The 777-8F should carry carry 31 main deck pallets and 13 in the lower hold. The A350F should carry 30 main deck pallets and 12 in the lower hold. Airbus' website shows the A350F as hav...
Jump to postThey need a new type because the 777F doesn't meet the ICAO requirements and can't be produced after 2027. The ICAO requirement related to the engine, not the airframe. So the A35F can fly 4700nm with a max payload of 109t and the 777XF can fly 4000nm with a max payload of 118t? How far will then t...
Jump to postSuppose that a jetliner experiences uncommanded thrust reverser deployment in one of its two engines just after V1. The length of the runway is say about 2500 m (8000 ft) vs about say 5500 ft (1700 m) balanced field length for the type. Given the inevitable delay due to the time needed for the asse...
Jump to postLooking back at an old article from Australian Aviation from 2011: australianaviation.com.au/2011/04/qantas-freight-considering-747-8f-777f/, I always highly doubted why they didn't they purchase some 777 freighters instead of relying on the sole 767 & outsourcing 747 operations. Now that they ...
Jump to postYou do not know the cost to build either the 777XF or the A350F. Nor do you know at what price either OEM will offer to airlines. So your constant point regarding list price is literally meaningless. No one pays list price. You know this, yet keep repeating it over and over. Why? If you know at wha...
Jump to postIf Boeing is launching today, has it had time to tweak its design in response to the A350F specs? I doubt it, but it may not think it needs to. The rational behind this thread was to try and work out where the 77XF would sit in their product lineup. That being said we know the 744 and 748 productio...
Jump to postElroyJetson wrote:So the 777XF will be an overweight, overpriced, dud. :
B737's replacement is the only way they would actually makes money. Any other projects could possibly caused them to go bankrupt. Think about it, VLA market is drying up, B787's next move would be new generation engines. The only thing they got to make for now is B737 replacement. Who would buy a 7...
Jump to postI guess they all must be wrong? Those quotes do not address the points I raised. Besides in the freight market it is rare to have full loads all the time, eg it is very common to fly full volume from Asia to the US, and come back near empty. Comparisons made at a maximum weight or maximum volume ar...
Jump to postQuite simply - it could possibly beat it on fuel consumption on long sectors with that big wing - who knows on acquisition cost I do not think the 77X will beat the A350 on block (ie trip fuel per sector), the metrics all rely on higher number or passengers/cargo mass/cargo volume on the 77X. The e...
Jump to postI have to wonder why large avionics bays haven't gone by the wayside on newer A/C's. No doubt a modern smart phone has more than enough compute power for every system on the aircraft. Not that I'd be advocating for a central controller or anything. I have heard that a lot of the technology is delib...
Jump to postI have a ticket for my first trip back to Australia in 3 years for this coming July on CX and I have to say, part of me isn't feeling at all confident that it's going to take off at all...and not because of pandemic-induced reasons. Flights out should be ok, it’s the flights in and the stays of eve...
Jump to postOr perhaps they paid out the "inflated bills to the manufacturer that exceeded the total value agreed upon in the main contract,” Invariably that happens with almost every military contract as the customer asks for upgrades, spares, training, or capability not in the original contract. I think...
Jump to postWould just like to share what I wrote in the general QR thread https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1468563&p=23149473#p23149473 “Qatar as a nation is still growing when it comes providing fair expectations for workers. It is something they freely admit at the highest levels. ...
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