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zksik
Topic Author
Posts: 18
Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2004 12:08 pm

Iroquois Replacement ..

Mon Jul 05, 2004 10:58 am

Gday all,
Project 'Warrior' as it is known is the name behind the tender for the replacement of 14 of the RNZAF's UH-1H Iroquois and the 5 remaining B47G Sioux helicopters.

The Project requires medium sized helicopters to replace the Iroqious fleet and smaller training helicopters to replace the Sioux fleet.

aviationtoday.com: "An ideal replacement would be C-130-transportable. But few of the newer airframes can be carried on a Hercules without extensive breakdown. The limits this requirement would place on the replacement helicopter’s capabilities will have to be weighed against other transport options, such as self-deployment throughout the South Pacific via island staging points or use of the new multi-role ship."

In total the project has been allocated NZ$400-560 Million (US$230–288 million)

Replacement for the training helicopters would most likely be leased from civilian contractors such as Bell 407 aircraft.
However the RNZAF have confirmed that NZ has been offered ex Singapore Airforce Squirrel helicopters (no word as yet on whether these are the hellfire equipped versions)

Possible replacements for the Iroquois would be :
* The AgustaWestland EH101
* Sikorsky H-92 or S-70A
* Eurocopter AS532 Cougar
* NH Industries NH-90
* Bell AB139
* Bell Griffon (412EP)

Your views on the logical replacements ? (keeping within the restraints of the project)
one life... fly it
 
zksik
Topic Author
Posts: 18
Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2004 12:08 pm

RE: Iroquois Replacement ..

Mon Jul 05, 2004 11:30 am

My opinion for the replacement of the Iroquois would clearly be the Blackhawk.
This would be for a number of reasons:
* Transportability on the C-130
* Support from Australia
* A well proven chopper

For the training side of things my choice would be the the ex RSAF AS550C-2 Fennec (if these are the ones offered to NZ)
I could definately see a role in the RNZAF for a reconasance fleet of helicopters especially with the New Zealands approach towards peacekeeping. It would also fill a little bit of a gap with the loss of the air combat force and possibly bring some moral in the airforce.
Correct me if im wrong but these aircraft might also be cheaper to maintain with the availablity of civilian parts due to the high amount of civilian squirrels operating in NZ.
My only question mark surrounds the fatigue of these aircraft.

Some links of relevance:

*NZDF site about project warrior : http://www.nzdf.mil.nz/news/articles/2003/1209-ltdp-qa.html

*RSAF Eurocopter AS 350/550 Ecureuil/Fennec:
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/3900/fennec.html

*Aviation Today
http://www.aviationtoday.com/cgi/rw/show_mag.cgi?pub=rw&mon=0703&file=0703pacrim.htm
one life... fly it
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Iroquois Replacement ..

Fri Jul 09, 2004 6:46 pm

At first glance, Blackhawk of Griffon.

I suspect that the Friffon would be the cheaper of the two choices.

Of course the other option not mentioned might be a re-build, kind of like the US Marines are doing to come up with their UH-1Z
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
zksik
Topic Author
Posts: 18
Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2004 12:08 pm

RE: Iroquois Replacement ..

Tue Jul 13, 2004 4:10 pm

Yes L-188; your right. The finalists for the tender are the Blackhawk and Griffon.

Note of interest: just found out that our naval SH 2G seasprite helicopters also carry the same engines as the blackhawk; lets hope this will convince the MOD to choose the UH 60!
one life... fly it
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Iroquois Replacement ..

Thu Jul 15, 2004 6:01 pm

Well, never dealt with the Griffon, but my only Army units did have UH-1H and Blackhawks.

The Blackhawk is a pretty impressive peice of equipment, when it is running  Laugh out loud
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Pronto
Posts: 318
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 12:43 pm

RE: Iroquois Replacement ..

Sat Jul 17, 2004 4:55 am

I would say the Griffon - just to relate to the Canadian Forces who replaced 3 types(Kiowa, Iroquois and Twin Huey) with it.
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Iroquois Replacement ..

Sat Jul 17, 2004 8:33 am

A Griffon is pretty much the same bird as the Twin Huey...Just a Bell 412 vs. a Bell 212 platform...Both are derivitives of the original UH-1 Iroquois airframe.

Replacing a Kiowa IMHO is replacing a cheap to operate airframe with one that is much larger then what is required for the job.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Qb001
Posts: 1923
Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2000 12:42 am

RE: Iroquois Replacement ..

Sat Jul 24, 2004 12:37 pm

Forget the Griffon. It's not designed for military purposes. Although they won't say it publicly, the CF hate it.

There was even a report from the Auditor General in Canada criticizing the government for this chopper. Here's what it has to say:
Operational tests that could have been carried out on the Griffon to assess the aircraft's suitability for military use were not done before acquisition. As a result, the Department is now discovering that the aircraft's capabilities are being stretched to their limits, particularly when the Griffon is used in applications that push its envelope, such as search and rescue operations.

When carrying fully-laden troops, for example, the Griffon can be fitted with long-range fuel tanks or kevlar armour plating. In other words, the deeper into hostile territory a mission goes, the less likely it is the crew can be protected.

It is incapable of lifting a LG-1, which is the lightest artillery pieces operated by the CF. And the composite rotor blades have proven to be highly vulnerable, already resulting in one fatal crash.

Forget the Griffon.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Iroquois Replacement ..

Sat Jul 24, 2004 12:54 pm

Interesting conclusions from the Auditor General there, particularly in light of the predicessors of that helicopter.

Still the Bell 412 based Griffon is not that far from the Bell 212 based UH-1N the Marines use, and they are upgrading their farther. I don't hear many complaints about their helo's. And they work for a government that would have actually replaced the aircraft if there where issues with the reliablity.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
zksik
Topic Author
Posts: 18
Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2004 12:08 pm

RE: Iroquois Replacement ..

Sun Jul 25, 2004 9:55 am

interesting twist to the story here guys. just talked to someone in the airforce and they told me that the airforce are looking at the NH Industries NH-90 ! this should be interesting.
I wonder which helicopter will fill the training role? Im still thinking squirrel.
Finally the word is out that the ex RSAF Squirrel choppers offered to NZ have been rejected as the maintaince reports are incomplete.
your thoughts?
one life... fly it
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Iroquois Replacement ..

Mon Jul 26, 2004 5:07 pm

I would agree that the NH-90 is also a decent probability.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.

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