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JSF Probably Doesnt Have EU Future...

Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 10:04 pm
by mauriceb
A part of the American governments wan't to stop JSF co-operation with EU since they are afraid that the technology will be givin to China.. this all according to www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl (dutch)

so this might be the begin of an Massive Euro Fighter order?

RE: JSF Probably Doesnt Have EU Future...

Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 11:02 am
by dl021
The JSF project is on the way and the tech transfer issues are not the main worries for some nations.

What the problem is for some countries is the workshare. There's only so much to go around economically, and not every nation is going to get the workshare it wants, so some will go elsewhere if they are making their decisions based on civil economics rather than getting the best aircraft for the money.

Norway and the Netherlands are not happy with the workshare they have been afforded to date, and the British have had some troubles with the fact that they have been given extraordinary access but this interferes with their ability to use it elsewhere.

RE: JSF Probably Doesnt Have EU Future...

Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 11:55 am
by DfwRevolution
Quoting MauriceB (reply 0):
A part of the American governments wan't to stop JSF co-operation with EU since they are afraid that the technology will be givin to China..


ASAIK.... there are some major European contractos for the Lockheed JSF. Notably, Rolls Royce' propulsion systmes. Is this relating to avionics, aerodynamics, low-observability profile?

RE: JSF Probably Doesnt Have EU Future...

Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 5:33 pm
by mauriceb
DfwRevolution, i was not the one who said that. I just literly typed it over from several articles... the US government whant's to stop it

RE: JSF Probably Doesnt Have EU Future...

Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 12:11 am
by LMP737
MauriceB:

Stop what?

RE: JSF Probably Doesnt Have EU Future...

Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 3:33 am
by GDB
LM must sometimes be tearing their collective hair out at some of the blowhards on Capitol Hill, however workshare too is a problem.
But technology is not quite a one way street, the R/R input already mentioned, plus BAE have provided ALM Antillean Airlines (Netherlands Antilles)">LM with advice and technology on production, based heavily on their own experience with advanced production techniques on the Eurofighter.

Even the UK, who have been on board from the very start, investing a couple of billion $, have some issues.
The UK branch of RAND have investigated whether a UK production line should be set up, I don't recall seeing their conclusions however.
I'd say it's important, UK F-35's will carry different weapons for a start, it's worth remembering that the UK is so far the only firm export customer so far, with 150 F-35B's for RAF/RN.
If a further batch of say F-35C's are procured, (to partly replace Tornado GR.4s from 2015 onwards, alongside probably Batch 3 Typhoons and certainly UCAVs), a UK line might become even more attractive, major components are already in production at BAE plants now anyway.

UK has been involved with LO technology for a long time, dating back to co-operation as far back as the late 1950's, only de-classified in more recent times.
Unknown to most, V-Bombers had radar absorbent material added to some surfaces, more recently, leading edges of RAF Tornados and Jaguars got the same treatment just before the 1991 Gulf War, en-masse.

UK pilots flew F-117's on night-time flights from RAF Binbrook well before the 1988 unveiling of the aircraft.
So if there are issues with the UK access to F-35, no one else stands a chance!

RE: JSF Probably Doesnt Have EU Future...

Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 6:32 am
by keesje
Well (as a dutch tax payer) if there are good alternatives, we should of course consider and make a good trade-off.

RE: JSF Probably Doesnt Have EU Future...

Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 9:23 am
by Ozair
I just can't see it happening, with the cost of a Eurofighter almost twice that of the projected cost of a JSF, including most likely (not actual fact, just my opinion) higher maintenance and lifecycle costs the EU governments who are already struggling to meet future defense commitments will just not bite the bullet on the Eurofighter.
The JSF is just too attractive to pass up, even with it's shortcomings!

RE: JSF Probably Doesnt Have EU Future...

Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 4:05 am
by Sinlock
Quoting Ozair (reply 7):
The JSF is just too attractive to pass up, even with it's shortcomings!


What shortcomings are you refering too?

RE: JSF Probably Doesnt Have EU Future...

Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 2:47 pm
by Ozair
Quoting Sinlock (reply 8):
What shortcomings are you refering too?


I must admit that these come from an Australian's point of view so are slanted by my countries decision to procure the JSF even though it is a very inadequate replacement for our current fleet.

Main shortcomings are a lack of range, particularly on the SVTOL version, an internal bombay that cannot handle most standoff attack missiles due to size and little real air to air capability (especially close range combat where a lack of decent thrust to weight will be a telling factor).

There have been numerous articles in recent Australian magazines, Australian aviation etc, which have compared it to aircraft present or expected in the region in the next few years, namely SU-35s. Sadly it falls far short of these and also of the role it needs to fill in replacement.

With that in mind it is cheap and Australia, I think several EU governments could also be placed in this category, would rather purchase more less-capable aircraft than fewer capable aircraft.

What other choice do they have?

RE: JSF Probably Doesnt Have EU Future...

Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 7:14 pm
by Arniepie
I must admit that these come from an Australian's point of view so are slanted by my countries decision to procure the JSF even though it is a very inadequate replacement for our current fleet.

I always wondered why Australia is going to buy a single engined fighter for such a big country.
Wasn't the decision to buy the F18 iso the F16 partially inspired by the fact that it has 2 engines?
It would have made far more sense for them to buy the Super hornet or maybe the F15 (range,payload,CAP-capability's,etc...).

RE: JSF Probably Doesnt Have EU Future...

Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2005 6:35 am
by Ozair
Quoting Arniepie (reply 10):
It would have made far more sense for them to buy the Super hornet or maybe the F15


I agree completely but would even go as far as to say purchase some F22 at the end of US production, I am sure they could be given a good deal to keep production open to attract more US purchases. It might mean operating near half the amount of aircraft but would be a far more capable platform and a valid replacement for the F18 and F111.

Australia had loved the Mirages that we operated but suffered from the single-engine problem, several were lost to engine failure. With the F18 procurement two engines was almost a necessity (maybe the main reason the Swedish Viggen lost out) but this is not really that much of an issue with the JSF, engines these days are a quantum leap ahead in reliability compared to those 30 years ago.