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vanguard737
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Germany And The Flugzeugtraeger

Wed Mar 16, 2005 9:47 am

I am curious as to wether the Bundeswehr is concidering adding Aircraft Carriers to the Marine at any point in the near or somewhat near future. German defense policy is changing...at least the BMVG claims such...to focus on a quickly deployable military that can react to situations around the globe in a consistent manner, such as humanitarian aid, war on terrorism, etc. Aircraft carriers fall right into this niche, especially light escort carriers.

However, with the way Dr. Stuck and the current administration leap at any chance to cut military speding...will an aircraft carrier ever be plausible for the German defense system?

I look forward to your input!
 
Ozair
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RE: Germany And The Flugzeugtraeger

Wed Mar 16, 2005 10:13 am

I do not know that much about current German procurement other than what I read in Military Technology but I couldn't see a purely carrier being commissioned anytime soon.

An Amphib vessel is a different story and has the benefit of providing troop transport in wartime as well as a flat top in peacetime to accomplish all types of missions.

What aircraft would a German carrier embark? Would this be another possible JSF purchase that could be used from an Amphib, I do not know of another aircraft that could be used that Germany would realistically procure.
 
L-188
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RE: Germany And The Flugzeugtraeger

Wed Mar 16, 2005 12:06 pm

I don't see it happening.

The German Navy is not a "Blue Water" navy.

That isn't to say that it isn't capable of long range missions, however it is set up for North Sea and Baltic operations.

I could see something like HMS Ocean, or that Japanese equivelent.

Actually come to think of it, I am shocked the Japanese people went for that ship.
 
NoUFO
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RE: Germany And The Flugzeugtraeger

Wed Mar 16, 2005 5:19 pm

Actually, the current government spends more money on the military than the former Kohl administration, though overall there's less money to spend.
Former minister Volker Rühe (conservative) was a brilliant mind (and that comes from a centrist/liberal like me) but didn't have the heard to transform the Bundeswehr after the wall came down. Rudolf Scharping, the first Minister of Defense under the Schröder administration was an idiot compared to Rühe but at least pushed the Bundeswehr into the right direction. Struck is probably the best we had over a long period.

But aircraft carriers are extremely unlikely. One reason to have carriers is to "show flag", which is an attitude that should (and does) not fall within Germany's foreign policies. In the 70ies or 80ies, Germany could have comparatively easily afford two carriers (the realistic minimum IMHO), but didn't.

Nowadays we lack the money as everyone knows by now, and neither Typhoons nor Tornados are designed for carrier operations. The introduction of a third fighter aircraft couldn't be further away from reality.

The role model of Bundeswehr's transformation, by the way, is not so much the US American military but the Swedish.
 
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bully707
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RE: Germany And The Flugzeugtraeger

Wed Mar 16, 2005 7:02 pm

The Bundeswehr might be transforming, but it's primary role remains the defense of Germany against any outside threat, still the current Government now considers "us" more to be peacekeepers....

With our small costline, the biggest "warships" currently are the F123 class frigates (Brandenburg class).
Germany neither needs an aircraft carrier nor would the Navy be able to afford it, and with about 14.000 "men" our Navy is rather small.  Smile

Having served on the CV67 Uss J.F. Kennedy in 1999 I sure wouldn't mind one, but honestly...that will never happen...  Sad

Godspeed

Bernd
 
NoUFO
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RE: Germany And The Flugzeugtraeger

Wed Mar 16, 2005 7:56 pm

Quoting Bully707 (Reply 4):
The Bundeswehr might be transforming, but it's primary role remains the defense of Germany against any outside threat

Not really. National defence remains to be the foundation under constitutional law, but the new equipment very much reflects the shift of Bundeswehr's focus towards out-of-area missions and rapid reaction forces.

Quoting Bully707 (Reply 4):
With our small costline, the biggest "warships" currently are the F123 class frigates (Brandenburg class).

Actually it's the F 124 Sachsen/Saxony class, but granted: those frigates aren't much bigger.
 
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bully707
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RE: Germany And The Flugzeugtraeger

Wed Mar 16, 2005 9:00 pm

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 5):
Not really. National defence remains to be the foundation under constitutional law, but the new equipment very much reflects the shift of Bundeswehr's focus towards out-of-area missions and rapid reaction forces.

Yes...I guess thats what the government wants the forces to do....
Still homeland defense is still it's real duty, isn't it???
Please correct me if I am wrong...  Wink

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 5):
Actually it's the F 124 Sachsen/Saxony class, but granted: those frigates aren't much bigger.

Boy...do I feel stupid right now!!!!  Sad
I didn't know that....since I left the Airforce I haven't really kept up with the military...(the Navy in that case..)....ouch....  Wink

Thanks for the heads up !!!!!


Bernd
 
NoUFO
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RE: Germany And The Flugzeugtraeger

Wed Mar 16, 2005 9:14 pm

Quoting Bully707 (Reply 6):
Still homeland defense is still it's real duty, isn't it???

Right, but as Struck said: "Deutschland wird auch am Hindukusch verteidigt" ("the security of Germany is also being defended on the Hindukush").

 Wink
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Germany And The Flugzeugtraeger

Thu Mar 17, 2005 1:32 am

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 7):
Right, but as Struck said: "Deutschland wird auch am Hindukusch verteidigt" ("the security of Germany is also being defended on the Hindukush").

But German military will only be deployed abroad in the context of a UN, NATO or WEU operation, not on it´s own. I can see the future need for an amphibious landing support ship, e.g. carrying Harriers or a more modern equivalent, but I don´t see a need for a blue water aircraft carrier (or nuclear ballistic missile subs) of our own, unless as part of a joint European force.

Jan
 
A350
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RE: Germany And The Flugzeugtraeger

Thu Mar 17, 2005 7:24 am

Roland Koch (The conservative governor of the federal state Hessen) once proposed a German a/c carrier. Maybe we can call it "Helmut Kohl" and collect donations for it?  sarcastic 

A350
 
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bully707
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RE: Germany And The Flugzeugtraeger

Thu Mar 17, 2005 7:28 am

I sure hope it won't be as big as Helmut, though !!!!!  Wink

Bully
 
dl021
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RE: Germany And The Flugzeugtraeger

Thu Mar 17, 2005 12:06 pm

The FRG will not be building an aircraft carrier anytime soon. They are in the midst of a governmental fiscal near crisis and they are working to cut military spending not increase it.

The need for a carrier is dubious to say the least, and as said earlier any potential overseas effort will be made in conjunction with a multi-national task force (no overseas colonies or client states to defend) so any convoys will be covered by the coalition of nations affiliated with that mission.
 
GDB
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RE: Germany And The Flugzeugtraeger

Fri Mar 18, 2005 4:48 am

If Germany is serious about contributing to expeditionary operations, whether they be peacekeeping, as often happens now, but also in more full blown military operations too, arguably all those A400M's they are buying will provide a much needed airlift shot in the arm.
A few more ex airline A310's brought up and converted to tanker/transport would be a good idea too.

As for sealift, something like HMS Ocean could be useful, like the RN ship, built on commercial lines, so relatively cheap to operate, as it could also be very useful in disaster relief, for things like the recent Asian disaster, that could help the political side of a procurement.

What could it carry? NH-90's and Tigers for a start, (on the subject of choppers, the CH-53's will need replacing, if a direct capability replacement like CH-47F, CH-53X (a front runner?), cannot be afforded, then at least EH-101 Mk.3 would at least have a semblance of capability above NH-90).
But no one expects in the post cold war world, a one to one CH-53D replacement.

It would be unaffordable and politically impossible for Germany to get F-35B capable ships, as well as having no carrier experience.
The new air-defence frigates they are getting could screen any German helicopter carrier, in the very unlikely event of a German only operation.
In the context of European operations would it be needed?
With France to get a 2nd carrier (based on the RN CVF) and the RN itself eventually getting two CVF 60,000 tonners, HMS Queen Elizabeth and HMS Prince Of Wales, as well as Italy and Spain likely to retain carrier capability with F-35B.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Germany And The Flugzeugtraeger

Fri Mar 18, 2005 8:05 am

Just imagine what our neighbours would be thinking if after two world wars, we would start building a power projection force with the capability to run large scale military operations of our own. I think nobody in Europe would like it and everybody would become very suspicious about our motives.

Jan
 
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vanguard737
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RE: Germany And The Flugzeugtraeger

Fri Mar 18, 2005 4:31 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 13):
Just imagine what our neighbours would be thinking if after two world wars, we would start building a power projection force with the capability to run large scale military operations of our own. I think nobody in Europe would like it and everybody would become very suspicious about our motives.

Personally, and I admit I do speak as an American, albeit a very informed American per German culture/policy/history, etc, that that is a rather overused excuse by the SPD and other left of center parties in order to avoid spending the PROPER amount of money on the Bundeswehr rather than letting it slip into decay as is current policy. Clearly more and more is being asked of Germany in regard to operations, mostly humanitarian, but military as well (Afganistan, Horn of Africa, Sudan, Balkans, Thailand, etc). That being said, if Germany is going to be risking its soldiers lives and spending money to contribute to bettering the world, why should it do it with outdated and insufficient equipment? It shouldn't. An Aircraft carrier can help greatly to many of the regions I listed above. Also, I really do doubt that Germany would be viewed negativley for building an aircraft carrier and trying to get its military up to at least par standards. Its not as if anyone is proposing a nuclear super-carrier to be named "Battle of Sedan". Second, since along with France, Germany is Europes and the EU's economic powerhouse (though that too is slipping, thank you Mr. Schroeder), why should it not have a military and navy compatible to its stance as a nation?

My respect goes out to each and every member of the Bundeswehr for their dedicated service, and I would love to talk with any veterans/current soldiers/sailors/airmen! Drop me an email Smile
 
NoUFO
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RE: Germany And The Flugzeugtraeger

Fri Mar 18, 2005 9:34 pm

Vanguard,
The argument our neighbours would be flabbergasted (and "flabbergasted" hardly covers it) if we'd start building a power projection force is not a left/liberal vs. right/conservatives thing. This is truly a cross-party opinion.
Coincidentially, I came across a website earlier this week run by a young guy from the Netherlands who argued that the Netherlands need the JSF, because Germany was a "military super power". Utter nonsense, true, but it nevertheless remirrors sort of a reflex that still exists, even among younger people.

As mentioned before, the current government does spend more money on the Bundeswehr than the Kohl administration did. Even your administration does acknowledge this, (rightfully) adding that the amount is still inadequate.

But as for the troops depoyed to Afghanistan or Kosovo or elsewhere: They seem to have everything they need - with the exeption of proper tactical transport aircraft. Overall, their equipment is certainly not outdated. I wish, the US Army had some Dingos and MP7s in stock, and maybe some Fenneks, too. As for the Fox NBC protection vehicles: You're welcome.  Smile
 
Viper81176
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RE: Germany And The Flugzeugtraeger

Wed Mar 30, 2005 8:45 pm

Quoting Bully707 (Reply 10):
I sure hope it won't be as big as Helmut, though !!!!!

why not: then it would be big enough for real aircraft (i.e. conventional t/o and landing)

but to be honestly: Germany doesn't need an a/c. Like said above: the German defense policy is quite different to the American for example.

But getting a ship like HMS Ocean would be helpful. But therefore the German navy would need very different helicopters than the ones they just ordered (NH90)
 
AirRyan
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RE: Germany And The Flugzeugtraeger

Thu Mar 31, 2005 1:52 am

The British are trying to develop a new medium class carrier capable of F-35B/C aircraft, the Bundeswehr could help with that if they really wanted to get into force projection, but I don't think that is even what they really want to do let alone the finances and manpower involved. The Bundeswehr could operate anything from F-35C, French Rafale M, or even Super Hornet aircraft from them, so there are at least options.

I could see some MMA's in the Bundeswehr's future depending on their ASW priority, but the new MMA will over a lot more in terms of surveillance than just maritime patrol.

If anything at most, the Bundeswehr could buy into two USN LHD class type ships and say two squadrons of F-35B's for each ship. This would be considered more troop transport than force projection, and they could also fill the ship with a medium lift helo like the Merlin, and some navliazed attack helos as well. I'm not sure if the Tiger could be navalized or if they would have to go with something already available like the new AH-1Z's from Bell. The Deutsch also do have some experience with heavy-lift CH-53's that could be used aboard them as well, although they would surely need a modern upgrade just as well as the USMC CH-53E's are in need of.

We all know the Deutsch has always and still do make great Panzers, and a small addition of say 3-5 new USS Virginia class "unterseeboot" might help the Bundeswehr as well as Germany in general escape from the big-brother shadow of France. If France has any sort of need to yield a few carriers, than Germany doesn't have any less a need, that's for sure.

As a sociology major I've briefly studied demography, most of Europe is looking at an increasingly elder population due in large part to a near zero birth and in some cases, even a negative birth rate. Asia is the fastest growing population on Earth and if Europe and the west want to at least maintain a status quo, they would be wise not to let the capability, readability, and flexibility of their nations defense forces.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Germany And The Flugzeugtraeger

Thu Mar 31, 2005 2:22 am

Nuclear subs are out of question for German military (Not possible to get through in parliament). We are currently phasing out our civilian nuclear power stations, military reactors will not find a majority in the Bundestag.

On the other hand, Germany currently operates some of the most modern non-nuclear subs using fuel cell technology. They can stay down for a couple of weeks.
See: http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/type_212/

Jan

[Edited 2005-03-30 18:24:47]
 
Venus6971
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RE: Germany And The Flugzeugtraeger

Thu Mar 31, 2005 3:00 am

Are the Luftwaffe F-4's carrier capable, with proper tactics they could hold their own operating from the deck of a carrier or a as a training role until the F-35 came out. I know the E/F model never launched from a carrier but everthing except the internal cannon is the same a the J/S models.
 
AirRyan
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RE: Germany And The Flugzeugtraeger

Thu Mar 31, 2005 4:53 am

I was looking for some info on modern Deutsch U-boats, thanks Jan. That is interesting on what you say about the stance of Germany on nuclear technology when France is so heavily invested into it. I don't think the USN ever builds another sub that isn't powered by a nuke, at least until a better source becomes available, so I'll definately have to read up on the Type 212's and 214's, they look like such a small boat though, I would be interested in thier wartime capabilities; they likely have to be very, very quiet.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Germany And The Flugzeugtraeger

Thu Mar 31, 2005 5:03 am

Don´t forget that our home waters (the north Sea and the Baltic Sea) are quite shallow, especially the Baltic has only an average depth of about 50 meters, so huge blue water subs would be too big. They are also designed to get close to the enemy coast without being detected, and I think they would be good for special ops.

Jan
 
AirRyan
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RE: Germany And The Flugzeugtraeger

Thu Mar 31, 2005 10:47 am

Yes I must admit that I am not very familair with the modern mission of Deutsch defense forces, but the Type 212 and 214's look like a nice alternative to the expensive nuclear subs like what the US uses.
 
Flying-Tiger
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RE: Germany And The Flugzeugtraeger

Thu Mar 31, 2005 12:14 pm

The U212/212A (214 is the export designation AFAIK) is currently the most advanced non-nuclear submarine in the World.Do a little search on google, and you will come up with quite a bit of info.

Actually the German Navy is keeping a close eye on the Rotterdam-class of the Netherlands and has held preliminary talks with several German shipyards about 2-3 ships of this type. The Berlin-class suppliers are fine, but have a too-small flight deck and do not have enough vehicle transport capability. However funding is still an issue.
 
GDB
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RE: Germany And The Flugzeugtraeger

Sun Apr 03, 2005 2:39 am

I would not call the RN CVF's 'medium sized', true they are smaller than the USN's Nimitz class, but at 60,000 tons much bigger than CdG, (which I'd class as a medium sized carrier).

I really think that Germany needs to improve on capabilities they already have, such as replacing C-160's with A400M's for example.
There is no budget, no national will, for an entirely new capability.

If Germany did build a LPH ship like HMS Ocean, then it's airgroup could comprise NH-90's, Tiger attack choppers, either CH-53X or EH-101 for heavy or medium lift, (though a new modern European/US heavy lifter, as proposed last year, would be the ideal here, but I cannot see it happening, despite a very strong case on both sides of the Atlantic for it).
 
Viper81176
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RE: Germany And The Flugzeugtraeger

Sat Apr 09, 2005 9:02 pm

Question is wheater a new Version of the old Workhorse CH-53 is ever likly to be built.
I rather think it will be a completly new developed model. an after choosing the "european" EH-101 as the new presidential helicopter, or a few years ago the hawk as the basis of the new american entry level jet trainer, i don't think that it is unlikly to become reality that the new model is developed as a joint-venture of european (e.g. Eurocopter) and american (Bell or Sikorsky) companys.
And this new helicopter would be great for a german ship equal to HMS Ocean.

The navalised Tiger: I don't think that the Tiger will be navalised beause the costs will be to high. Who else than the German Navy will buy it?
Maybe the Italians, But they have their own AH. And the Brits? They have the Apache and navalised Gazelle. The Spanish? Don't think so although possible.
Maybe the French. But if I see how long they need to buy some Rafale fighters: they would let us hang dry in the wind before comitting to the navalised Tiger.
So: who is going to pay for the Tiger? Germany alone? Never
 
TSV
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RE: Germany And The Flugzeugtraeger

Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:19 am

Quoting Viper81176 (Reply 25):
The navalised Tiger: I don't think that the Tiger will be navalised beause the costs will be to high. Who else than the German Navy will buy it?

Are you sure it isn't available in a "navalised" form already? As far as I can recall the "Aussie" Tiger was specified to be embarked on HMAS Kanimbla and HMAS Manoora (and their LPH type successor yet to be built) for extended periods.
 
GDB
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RE: Germany And The Flugzeugtraeger

Mon Apr 11, 2005 1:35 am

The UK's license built WAH-64D's are modified for maritime use.
Tiger should not need much doing to it, especially in light of the Australian spec model.

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