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SATL382G
Topic Author
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CIA Predator Attacks!

Sun May 15, 2005 1:10 am

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/asiapcf/05/13/alqaeda.killing/index.html

Any doubt about CIA involvement in assassinations is history now...

What do you folks think about using a drone/uav for an attack?

One of the things that has restrained mankinds warmaking throughout history is that risk tempers aggression. If we remove the risk to the pilot are we more likely to use violence to make/enforce policy?



BTW: Is this the first time a CIA Predator has fired in anger? Or perhaps just the first time it's been publicized?

[Edited 2005-05-14 18:15:55]

[Edited 2005-05-14 18:19:16]
"There’s nothing quite as exhilarating as being shot at and missed" --Winston Churchill
 
TedTAce
Posts: 9098
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:31 am

RE: CIA Predator Attacks!

Sun May 15, 2005 1:22 am

I was wondering how long it would take...

Quoting SATL382G (Thread starter):
Any doubt about CIA involvement in assassinations is history now...

I never had any.

Quoting SATL382G (Thread starter):
What do you folks think about using a drone/uav for an attack?

 checkmark 

Quoting SATL382G (Thread starter):
One of the things that has restrained mankinds warmaking throughout history is that risk tempers aggression. If we remove the risk to the pilot are we more likely to use violence to make/enforce policy?

This is a hard argument to make considering that people like me think we foolhartedly ran into Iraq. I have a lot of different views about this, but suffice it to say, I'd rather a remotely manned drone do it then a person in harms way.
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LMP737
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RE: CIA Predator Attacks!

Sun May 15, 2005 1:44 am

Quoting SATL382G (Thread starter):
BTW: Is this the first time a CIA Predator has fired in anger? Or perhaps just the first time it's been publicized?

No it's not the first and it's not the first time it's been publicized. In late 2002 a Predator fired a Hellfire missile at a car traveling in a remote part of Yemen killing six Al Queda terrorists.
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SATL382G
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RE: CIA Predator Attacks!

Sun May 15, 2005 2:00 am

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 2):
No it's not the first and it's not the first time it's been publicized. In late 2002 a Predator fired a Hellfire missile at a car traveling in a remote part of Yemen killing six Al Queda terrorists.

I was thinking that was an AF predator... but it was CIA...

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/11/05/yemen.blast/index.html
"There’s nothing quite as exhilarating as being shot at and missed" --Winston Churchill
 
jwenting
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RE: CIA Predator Attacks!

Sun May 15, 2005 2:49 am

Wrong. CIA doesn't own Predators.

It may be on a mission for the CIA or using data collected by the CIA but the aircraft are part of the USAF.

And it's not assassination. It's execution of convicted terrorists. Shows that just because you're not in jail doesn't mean you can't be executed.
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SATL382G
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RE: CIA Predator Attacks!

Sun May 15, 2005 6:05 am

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 4):
Wrong. CIA doesn't own Predators

Care to clarify your statement? Or provide a link to support it?

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 4):
It's execution of convicted terrorists.

Convicted? By whom?
"There’s nothing quite as exhilarating as being shot at and missed" --Winston Churchill
 
TedTAce
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RE: CIA Predator Attacks!

Sun May 15, 2005 6:14 am

assassination/execution who the hec cares, so long as we killed a bad guy or two, and no 'innocent' women or children were hurt..
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jwenting
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RE: CIA Predator Attacks!

Sun May 15, 2005 6:41 am

Quoting SATL382G (Reply 5):
Care to clarify your statement?

CIA doesn't own military equipment, they draw on the military as needed. Saves money on training and maintenance if nothing else.

Quoting SATL382G (Reply 5):
Convicted? By whom?

By themselves when they became terrorists. If you choose that profession you have to accept that you're legitimate prey for everyone else in the world.
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dl021
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RE: CIA Predator Attacks!

Sun May 15, 2005 7:39 am

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 4):
And it's not assassination. It's execution of convicted terrorists. Shows that just because you're not in jail doesn't mean you can't be executed.

Not execution, but the prosecution of legitimate military targets who are in the process of waging unconventional warfare on the US.

As far as who owns the UAVs....I don't really think any of us knows, and if one or two do they aren't going to talk about it. The CIA draws resources it needs from the military on a regular basis and always has. It has in the past owned its own aircraft (A-12s), as well as contracted out (Air America, Southern Air Transport) and used AF equipment while pursuing its missions.

They have been taking out targets using UAVs for a while, and it certainly has been published before.
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Contact_tower
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RE: CIA Predator Attacks!

Sun May 15, 2005 8:31 am

Quote:
assassination/execution who the hec cares, so long as we killed a bad guy or two, and no 'innocent' women or children were hurt..

...with the target recognition skills the US military have shown on occations these last 15 years, you make damm sure you are not in the same general area as any bad guys!

The US administration are "very upset" if the Russians eliminate a terrorist in a certain former Sovjet republic, often siting lack of trial, and that the person was "a freedom fighter".

What is the real difference between blowing up a car with a Predator lauched Hellfire, and blowing up the house of a "freedom fighter" with a T-80 tank?
 
SATL382G
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RE: CIA Predator Attacks!

Sun May 15, 2005 9:07 am

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 7):
CIA doesn't own military equipment

You believe that? You'd be surprised.........
"There’s nothing quite as exhilarating as being shot at and missed" --Winston Churchill
 
aeroweanie
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RE: CIA Predator Attacks!

Sun May 15, 2005 9:15 am

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 4):
Wrong. CIA doesn't own Predators.

Wrong yourself - they do.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: CIA Predator Attacks!

Sun May 15, 2005 11:49 am

Quoting SATL382G (Thread starter):
What do you folks think about using a drone/uav for an attack?

Fine by me. Don't really care how it's done, as long as it's done.

Quoting SATL382G (Thread starter):
BTW: Is this the first time a CIA Predator has fired in anger? Or perhaps just the first time it's been publicized?

Yemen in 2002 I believe, 6 bad guys taken out, same type operation.

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 7):
CIA doesn't own military equipment

Oh, yes they do. Plenty of it. What the particulars are on nomenclature and quantity we'll never know . . .

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 4):
And it's not assassination. It's execution of convicted terrorists.

It's neither really in my mind. It's the neutralization of a legit military target.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
SATL382G
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RE: CIA Predator Attacks!

Sun May 15, 2005 12:33 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 12):
It's the neutralization of a legit military target

If it's a legit military target why isn't the military doing the shooting?
"There’s nothing quite as exhilarating as being shot at and missed" --Winston Churchill
 
MissedApproach
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RE: CIA Predator Attacks!

Sun May 15, 2005 12:41 pm

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 7):
CIA doesn't own military equipment, they draw on the military as needed. Saves money on training and maintenance if nothing else.

That's was the biggest reason for the retirement of the SR-71s. The USAF had to deal with the expense of operating them, yet all the intelligence they generated was for the CIA. It might be different now though, I dunno.
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HaveBlue
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RE: CIA Predator Attacks!

Sun May 15, 2005 3:33 pm

Yeah, the CIA had the A-12, sibling to the SR-71, fastest air breathing plane on Earth. And it was all CIA, including the pilots. One of our finest aircraft ever, so the CIA owning a drone, yeah, not to hard to believe.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: CIA Predator Attacks!

Sun May 15, 2005 3:44 pm

Quoting SATL382G (Reply 13):
If it's a legit military target why isn't the military doing the shooting?

First . . . didn't say they weren't the trigger pullers.

Second . . . why can't the CIA do it?

Third . . . I don't have a direct answer to your question. I don't care why the CIA is doing it. Fact is, it's done, one less asshole out there, and that's good enough for me.

I could followup with a similar question . . . why are there CIA operatives in the MTO Iraq and Afghanistan? It's a military operation, is it not? Now mind you, I don't care really. But, the CIA has been involved in every military operation we've had since it was formed . . . Korea, Vietnam, Desert Storm, Iraqi Freedom, Enduring Freedom, Grenada, Panama . . . question is, so what?
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
bsergonomics
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RE: CIA Predator Attacks!

Sun May 15, 2005 7:52 pm

If my history serves me correctly...

The first publicised use of the armed Predator was (as stated by previous posters) in Yemen.

The USAF had ordered the Predator as a 'normal' UAV. The CIA had a look and then said, "Can't we put some armament on it?" The CIA then paid for the programme to fit the Hellfire. After the operation in Yemen, the USAF woke up and said, "Hey, that is a useful and effective toy!" So the USAF ordered the UCAV (armed) version, as well as a retrofit programme for the existing Predators. So both the CIA and the USAF have these birds.

Judging by the type of operation, this was almost certainly a CIA aircraft.

My personal opinion is that the USAF were originally offered the UCAV variant, but were too worried about the restrictions on use caused by the political aspect of having a remote 'pilot' giving the order to fire. That, mixed with budgetary restrictions, could well have their decision to order only the surveillance variant.

The Yemeni operation was probably publicised for two reasons: firstly that the mission was a success and they targets were hit and eliminated; secondly, to gauge public and political reaction to the use of this type of weapon system. Once it became clear that there was no great backlash, the USAF could happily order the equipment, also in the knowledge that it was the CIA's budget that had paid for the development programme.
The definition of a 'Pessimist': an Optimist with experience...
 
SATL382G
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RE: CIA Predator Attacks!

Mon May 16, 2005 12:07 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 16):
First . . . didn't say they weren't the trigger pullers.

Didn't say they were either... Smile

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 16):
Second . . . why can't the CIA do it?

I'm no lawyer nor legal expert- However I should think "due process" would apply in a civilian situation. Much the same as LOAC would apply in a military one. Obviously no due process in this case despite the fact that some here consider this guy "convicted", LOL.

IMO this (due process, LOAC) is the kind of thing that is supposed to make us better than the bad guys and we should not dispense with it so easily.

BTW LOAC, for those of you who judge the military from the comfort of your livingroom easy chair, = Law Of Armed Conflict.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 16):
Third . . . I don't have a direct answer to your question. I don't care why the CIA is doing it. Fact is, it's done, one less asshole out there, and that's good enough for me.

I'm not sure how to answer that. I'll let you (a cop right?) think about that one...

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 16):
I could followup with a similar question . . . why are there CIA operatives in the MTO Iraq and Afghanistan? It's a military operation, is it not?

I think it's fair to say OSS/CIA (and whatever predecessors) have been involved in all U.S. conflicts. I just don't believe that makes them combatants. Again I'm not a lawyer, just an airman who has had LOAC shoved down his throat by the JAG on a number of occasions (I know you have too)

I've got no problem with CIA cueing up targets for the military, not their primary mission but it's ok by me. I've got no problem with CIA saying to military "Hey don't take out that target yet, we've got more intel to squeeze from it first". But I don't think CIA should be the shooter or operator of the system that does the shooting.

I think what's happening here is the technology to acquire information is outstripping our ability to analyze said information and pursue opportunities. Some bright, young, ambitious, Xbox wiz Captain somewhere (or maybe a certain SECDEF) said "Let's hang a Hellfire on it and eliminate all the lag time from sensor to shooter". Not saying it's good or bad, just that it's happening.

Quoting Bsergonomics (Reply 17):
Judging by the type of operation, this was almost certainly a CIA aircraft.

Going by my personal experience and a little bit of research I did yesterday, I think we really don't know who did the shooting and I think that smoke screen is intentional.
"There’s nothing quite as exhilarating as being shot at and missed" --Winston Churchill
 
dl021
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RE: CIA Predator Attacks!

Mon May 16, 2005 4:12 am

Quoting SATL382G (Reply 13):
If it's a legit military target why isn't the military doing the shooting?

It is part and parcel to their charter that they act in the interest of the US government overseas/outside US borders. Who do you think directed and ran with the SF teams in the field in Afghanistan? The and their predecessors always have had the mission of organizing, leading and executing covert and guerilla missions during times of war. They are acting as implementers of US policy, and will continue to do so.

If they are doing their jobs in a covert manner, and not wearing uniforms, then they are taking their chances as "spies", and understand that they can and probably will be shot....

that said, when was the last time that a uniform stopped some scumbag terrorist from dx'ing one of our guys when captured?
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SATL382G
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RE: CIA Predator Attacks!

Mon May 16, 2005 4:36 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 19):
It is part and parcel to their charter that they act in the interest of the US government overseas/outside US borders. Who do you think directed and ran with the SF teams in the field in Afghanistan? The and their predecessors always have had the mission of organizing, leading and executing covert and guerilla missions during times of war. They are acting as implementers of US policy, and will continue to do so.

... Who was doing the shooting CIA or SF? And were the targets mil or civ?

Quoting DL021 (Reply 19):
If they are doing their jobs in a covert manner, and not wearing uniforms, then they are taking their chances as "spies", and understand that they can and probably will be shot....

Goes with the territory......

Quoting DL021 (Reply 19):
that said, when was the last time that a uniform stopped some scumbag terrorist from dx'ing one of our guys when captured?

None (at least since the last "good" war), but that's not the point. The law (LOAC / civ/ whatever/ and strangely absent in your reply BTW) is what is supposed to make us "better" than those who oppose us. If this guy was a legit military target why didn't the military take him out? - or perhaps it might be more accurate to ask why the press is being led to believe CIA did it?
"There’s nothing quite as exhilarating as being shot at and missed" --Winston Churchill
 
dl021
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RE: CIA Predator Attacks!

Mon May 16, 2005 9:44 am

Quoting SATL382G (Reply 20):

... Who was doing the shooting CIA or SF? And were the targets mil or civ?

Both, and can you tell me the difference between a military and civilian target in that war zone?

Quoting SATL382G (Reply 20):

None (at least since the last "good" war), but that's not the point. The law (LOAC / civ/ whatever/ and strangely absent in your reply BTW) is what is supposed to make us "better" than those who oppose us.

I assume you are referring to the Laws of Land Warfare has been observed by us pretty meticulously, with some admitted lapses, but none as a matter of policy. The actions taked by our intelligence branches are actions taken by officers of our government with the approval thereof....therefore legal. Other countries may not regard them with the same view, but as long as our officers and servicemen act within the law then I don't see the problem.

Quoting SATL382G (Reply 20):
If this guy was a legit military target why didn't the military take him out? - or perhaps it might be more accurate to ask why the press is being led to believe CIA did it?

Back to my earlier posit.....the mission needs to be assigned to whomever can get it done most effectively. As to why they are publicizing? I would guess that the only reason they are discussing intelligence operations is that they are looking to either improve the Agency's image at home and/or to make the tangoes nervous about the ability of the people chasing them to bring hellfire (nice pun, no?) down upon their heads as the opportunity arises. Probably limits their mobility and keeps them more concerned with looking over the shoulders and at the sky than with trying to carry out missions against us.

These are my theories....what are yours about why they give the CIA this mission?
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ruger11
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RE: CIA Predator Attacks!

Tue May 17, 2005 8:59 am

As a grunt on the ground I can tell you I'd rather have a human pilot above me who can use reason and logic and whos actions aren't possibly delayed or limited... but loiter time, stealthiness etc are in favor of the predator. Given the chance, having both up there in the sky isn't bad.

I say use every tool we've got. Strike them when they think they are safe. Hopefully they never saw the missile coming, never saw the drone and no one knew what hit them. We need to strike fear in them, and keep them rolling back, not the other way around.

Like DL021 said, if they are worried about a drone hitting them with a hellfire then they aren't as effective (limiting movement to night or bad weather) that's to our advantage so USE IT!
 
stall
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RE: CIA Predator Attacks!

Tue May 17, 2005 6:59 pm

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 4):
And it's not assassination. It's execution of convicted terrorists


Convicted ? So they were judged in a fair trial. A trial where evidences were brought forward to the jury.

I would like to read the minutes of these trial. Would you be kind enough to provide me a link please.

Thank you very much.
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dl021
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RE: CIA Predator Attacks!

Tue May 17, 2005 11:06 pm

Quoting Stall (Reply 23):
Convicted ? So they were judged in a fair trial. A trial where evidences were brought forward to the jury.

I would like to read the minutes of these trial. Would you be kind enough to provide me a link please.

Please refer back to the correction offered to this statement that this was an act of war and the prosecution of an attack on a legitimate military target.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
stall
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RE: CIA Predator Attacks!

Wed May 18, 2005 12:18 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 24):
this was an act of war

Was a war declared ? Who are the nations at war ?
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dl021
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RE: CIA Predator Attacks!

Wed May 18, 2005 1:52 am

War is a state of affairs, regardless of declarations.

Can you identify the last time a nation declared war officially?

Do you think that the absence of a declaration means that the previous Gulf War was not a war?

How about the conflict in Cote d'Ivoire? I could go on......

do you think it legitimate for the parties in all these conflicts to ignore the Laws of Land Warfare? Do you think its ok for them to behave as barbarians?
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stall
Posts: 254
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RE: CIA Predator Attacks!

Wed May 18, 2005 5:41 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 26):
War is a state of affairs

I love this expression. A state of affairs: Killing people (good or bad) is ... An affair.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 21):
Both, and can you tell me the difference between a military and civilian target in that war zone?

If you can't discriminate (100% sure) between a military target and civilian one don't shout. Send troops on the ground to be sure, absolutely sure.
If a democracy engange itself in an armed conflict it should take all measures to avoid civilian deaths even if a lot of soldiers have to die to collect the intelligence to discriminate the military target from the population.

BTW What is a civilian target ?
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dl021
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RE: CIA Predator Attacks!

Wed May 18, 2005 5:57 am

If surgical precision were possible we'd have it. However even troops on the ground make mistakes. With your rationale we would never act to defend ourselves or interests.

Quoting Stall (Reply 27):
I love this expression. A state of affairs: Killing people (good or bad) is ... An affair.

If you have a more accurate word I'll use it instead.

Since you are simply playing word association games in order to make your point that war is bad and killing people is wrong please allow me to make the point for you.

War is bad.

Killing people is wrong.

Oh, yeah....no one is perfect and humans make the decisions, so no decisions will be perfect....including the ones made in the comfort of our living rooms post bellum with the benefit of hindsight and the protection of men willing to put their lives on the line to defend us from the forces seeking to harm us.

If using UAVs to take out targets and prosecute wars will enable us to accomplish the prescribed mission while eliminating the need for soldiers to die while doing it then I say lets use them.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
stall
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RE: CIA Predator Attacks!

Wed May 18, 2005 6:20 am

If using UAV increase the probability of killing civilian they shouldn't be use. Soldiers on the ground should be use.
These soldiers should accept the additional risks. They should recognize that theses civilians (not US in this case) don't deserve to die as 'collateral damages'.

Don't misunderstand me, I have nothing against soldiers all around the world but I am very sceptic about technology in modern war. A society that describes civilian casualties as 'collateral damages' is not taking a bright path.

It is useless to argue between the two of us. You believe that our mistakes (war is bad and killing people is wrong) as human are acceptable so we can keep doing it. I believe that we try to convince ourselves that these mistakes are acceptable so we make no efforts to find other ways to deal with challenges we face.
Flying is fun
 
dl021
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RE: CIA Predator Attacks!

Wed May 18, 2005 7:38 am

I believe that war is the last resort of diplomacy, and should not be entered into lightly.

That said, I also believe that when you are engaging in war you are obliged to protect your people first, and we already put our soldiers in jeopardy with our rules of engagement.

You are probably correct that arguing is pointless.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
F4N
Posts: 507
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RE: CIA Predator Attacks!

Wed May 18, 2005 11:14 am

To all:

With any luck, Predator will get many more...

regards,

F4N

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