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Ozair
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Australia Delays JSF Choice

Mon May 16, 2005 8:24 pm

Minister for Defence Media Mail List
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Monday, 16 May 2005 082/2005

NEW OPPORTUNITIES FOR AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRY WITH NEW PHASE OF JSF PROGRAM

Australia has decided to enter the next phase of the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) program opening up substantial new opportunities for Australian industry, Defence Minister Robert Hill and Industry Minister Ian Macfarlane announced today.

Senator Hill said Australia will enter negotiations with the United States and seven other nations as part of the next phase of the US$200 billion JSF program.

"Australia's involvement in the first phase of the JSF project has led to considerable opportunities for Australian industry to compete for work on this large global defence project," Senator Hill said.

"This has opened the door for Australian industry to now bid for the larger more lucrative contracts that make up the next phase of the JSF program.

"Defence will soon lead a Government team in negotiating Australia's involvement in the Production, Sustainment and Follow-on Development (PSFD) phase of the project.

"Defence will seek to establish appropriate cost sharing, industry participation, support and management arrangements throughout the life of the project."

Senator Hill said negotiations were expected to lead to a cooperative agreement in late 2006 with the Government to make a decision on aircraft purchases in 2008. If approved, the project will replace Australia's F-111 and F/A-18 aircraft with the next generation JSF.

Current analysis suggests that the proposal for up to 100 Conventional Take-Off and Landing JSF aircraft, and associated support elements, remain within the original cost estimates.

The Government is committed to Australian industry participation in the JSF program. To date, 18 Australian companies have won contracts or commitments of work in the existing System Development and Demonstration phase.

Minister Macfarlane said Australia's participation in the latest PSFD phase will generate new opportunities for further industry involvement over the life of the project.

"Australian industry has already proven it can successfully compete with the world's best aviation companies," Minister Macfarlane said.

"This next phase opens up a whole new range of contract opportunities and companies can be confident that good performance on the recent contracts will result in follow-on work in the longer-term production phases of the JSF Program.

"This initiative reinforces the strong partnership between Government and Australian industry to work together as Team Australia to position us to win work and to provide the necessary technology and capability infrastructure for the long-term support of JSF aircraft."

As a PSFD partner, Australia will also have the opportunity to shape the global arrangements for JSF support to ensure Australia's requirements are met in the most cost effective way.
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So Australia not only still see the JSF as a potential procurement but a total force of 100, more than I expected! Interesting though that it seems like the government is more concerned about the Industry participation than the actual aircraft
Could it be possible they will not purchase it and just help in the production to Industry's benefit?
 
atmx2000
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RE: Australia Delays JSF Choice

Mon May 16, 2005 9:24 pm

Exactly where does a delay come into play??

Quoting Ozair (Thread starter):
Could it be possible they will not purchase it and just help in the production to Industry's benefit?

I don't think the US would be very happy with that. Some representatives/senators in Congress are objecting to technology transfer deals and others are objecting offsets involved in international military sales. They certainly would not be happy with offsets and no sales.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
dl021
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RE: Australia Delays JSF Choice

Mon May 16, 2005 11:18 pm

Quoting Ozair (Thread starter):
Could it be possible they will not purchase it and just help in the production to Industry's benefit?

Not likely. Australia needs the JSF/F-35 to replace the F-18s, and there is no real way that they can't spend the money to do so. Industrial participation will be limited to the purchasers of the project, and that dictum would be maintained by the others who are buying them.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
ruger11
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RE: Australia Delays JSF Choice

Tue May 17, 2005 12:59 am

I'm suprised they will be replacing the F-111 with the JSF... I know the Aardvark is old, but it seems like two planes with differnt roles. Maybe the F-35's are primarily replacing the F-18's and will just take over some roles of the F-111s as they are retired.
 
Ozair
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RE: Australia Delays JSF Choice

Tue May 17, 2005 7:36 am

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 1):
Exactly where does a delay come into play??

The delay was reported here in other media, apparently the government was expected to announce an order in 2006 and have now delayed that order until 2008, which is interesting as it will be very close to the next election.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 2):
Australia needs the JSF/F-35 to replace the F-18s,

I agree we need a replacement but was just throwing a question out to see what would probably occur if a country did something like this.

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 1):
Some representatives/senators in Congress are objecting to technology transfer deals and others are objecting offsets involved in international military sales.

I find this a strange argument as I thought Australia was now the US's new best friend. We are participating in BMD, there will be a joint training base as well as pre-positioned equipment, what is the matter with giving us the tech for the JSF?

Quoting Ruger11 (Reply 3):
I'm suprised they will be replacing the F-111 with the JSF

Many here agree with you, the JSF is a poor replacement for the F-111 but there is little room in the budget for anything else. It seems we are committed to the JSF no matter what.
 
dl021
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RE: Australia Delays JSF Choice

Tue May 17, 2005 8:43 am

Quoting Ozair (Reply 4):
We are participating in BMD, there will be a joint training base as well as pre-positioned equipment, what is the matter with giving us the tech for the JSF?

I don't think there's any real issue right now with that. The issue is with giving the tech to companies that might to business with nations we don't want possessing that tech. Protecting the advantage is a problem.

Quoting Ozair (Reply 4):
Many here agree with you, the JSF is a poor replacement for the F-111

Yeah, but the money is the issue. I think that push comes to shove there will be some SuperHornets available cheap, or some Strike Eagles, should they decide to build the FB-22 concept.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
ruger11
Posts: 50
Joined: Mon May 16, 2005 4:20 pm

RE: Australia Delays JSF Choice

Tue May 17, 2005 8:53 am

This brings to mind the issue of the A-10 aging, no replacement in sight that can do it's job either.

Seems to mkae me think that a F-111 sized aircraft, new with some stealthy features, but made cheap enough to reasonably export, would sell well, as a low level penetration type plane, maye will the electronics warfare role if the frame is versatile enough, it would replace a lot of planes.

I know the Super Hornet and F-15E are capable and all, believe me I read a lot about these aircraft, but I am wondering the viability of building a new airframe, a bit bigger, capapble of carrying more weight, but incorporating some of the stealth technology on the F-22/ F35....

Some roles it could fill

F-111, EF-111, EA-6B (land based though), Strike eagle and super hornet, but more payload, less maneuverability... maybe even a wild weasel role if you jammed some space with jammers and countermeasures. interesting concept.
 
AussieAMEgirl
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RE: Australia Delays JSF Choice

Tue May 17, 2005 11:38 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 5):
The issue is with giving the tech to companies that might to business with nations we don't want possessing that tech. Protecting the advantage is a problem.

Considering the companies involved are Boeing Australia, Raytheon and so forth, I dont think they have too much to worry about!! I also believe that Boeing Australia is Boeing's largest interest outside the US!!
 
atmx2000
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RE: Australia Delays JSF Choice

Tue May 17, 2005 5:20 pm

Quoting Ozair (Reply 4):


Quote:
Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 1):
Some representatives/senators in Congress are objecting to technology transfer deals and others are objecting offsets involved in international military sales.

I find this a strange argument as I thought Australia was now the US's new best friend. We are participating in BMD, there will be a joint training base as well as pre-positioned equipment, what is the matter with giving us the tech for the JSF?

What I was saying was that if Australia were just to participate in the production without buying it, there would be no justification for the tech transfer and offset deals in the eyes of Congress, and those who were objecting to such deals in the first place even when sales were involved would get louder.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
Ozair
Topic Author
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Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:38 am

RE: Australia Delays JSF Choice

Tue May 17, 2005 10:21 pm

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 8):
What I was saying was that if Australia were just to participate in the production without buying it, there would be no justification for the tech transfer and offset deals in the eyes of Congress, and those who were objecting to such deals in the first place even when sales were involved would get louder.

I understand, was not trying to get on your back about it. I have heard the tech transfer story before though, especially with regards to Australia getting less than US versions of the JSF due to concerns over stealth and other tech and it is this that I was principally referring to.

Quoting Ruger11 (Reply 6):
Seems to make me think that a F-111 sized aircraft, new with some stealthy features, but made cheap enough to reasonably export, would sell well, as a low level penetration type plane, maybe will the electronics warfare role if the frame is versatile enough, it would replace a lot of planes.

That is a good idea, the hard part I think is keeping the costs down. Add a large internal fuel load to the list as well. This is the one most required asset for modern aircraft that is neglected. Way too much reliance on tankers IMO.
 
ruger11
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RE: Australia Delays JSF Choice

Wed May 18, 2005 6:02 am

Ozair, how true, hence the F/A-18... Rediculously small fuel load. Super hornet has a big improvement here, but you're right, tanker assets, even of our enormous air force are always stretched thin. NAval tanker assets are completely in linbo, with buddy pods on the S-3 the best things going
 
Ozair
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RE: Australia Delays JSF Choice

Wed May 18, 2005 7:21 pm

Quoting Ruger11 (Reply 10):
NAval tanker assets are completely in linbo, with buddy pods on the S-3 the best things going

Interesting, in a recent article on the F-18E I saw a number with buddy pods, that's a lot of plane to use as just a tanker!
Australia have ordered 5 A330TT which will be woefully inadequate for the tasks of supporting 100 JSF. Studies in several flight magazines here have recommended more than 20 to support the fleet but that is not likely to happen!
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Australia Delays JSF Choice

Thu May 19, 2005 7:54 am

Quoting Ruger11 (Reply 6):
I know the Super Hornet and F-15E are capable and all, believe me I read a lot about these aircraft, but I am wondering the viability of building a new airframe, a bit bigger, capapble of carrying more weight, but incorporating some of the stealth technology on the F-22/ F35....

The F-15E really is the only airplane that can approach replacing the F-111Gs of the RAAF. But, even the Strike Eagle falls short here. The F-111G (formerly the USAF/SAC FB-111A) has longer legs and carries a heavier payload. The F/A-18E cannot even approach the capabilities of the F-15E, let those of the F-111G.

An airplane that hides below the ridges and uses TFR, like the F-111G and F-15E, does not need stealth. He is below the radar or at least in the ground clutter.

Quoting Ruger11 (Reply 6):
F-111, EF-111, EA-6B (land based though), Strike eagle and super hornet, but more payload, less maneuverability... maybe even a wild weasel role if you jammed some space with jammers and countermeasures. interesting concept.

The USN is looking at the EF-18G Growler to replace the EA-6B. The US really screwed up by retiring the EF-111A (or any version of the F-111), but they could all be returned to flying, and updated quicker and cheaper than buying new airplanes, like the proposed EF-18G.

The Wild Weasels mission is flown by F-16Ds.

BTW the USAF is looking at a jammer version of the B-52H for this mission, it will retain it's bomber capabilities and be called the B-52J.

Quoting Ozair (Reply 11):
Australia have ordered 5 A330TT which will be woefully inadequate for the tasks of supporting 100 JSF. Studies in several flight magazines here have recommended more than 20 to support the fleet but that is not likely to happen!

Although you are right, the RAAF needs a lot more tanker capability than they have on order, they have never had more than 5 tankers anyway. Are these KC-330s going to be configuered like the RAF (3 drouges) or are they going to have a boom too?

I would think a cheaper tanker for the RAAF would be getting KC-135As from the desert and upgrading them to the KC-135R standard, with wingtip refueling pods.

Anyone know how the Wedgetails are doing?
 
Ozair
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RE: Australia Delays JSF Choice

Thu May 19, 2005 3:41 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 12):
Although you are right, the RAAF needs a lot more tanker capability than they have on order, they have never had more than 5 tankers anyway. Are these KC-330s going to be configured like the RAF (3 drouges) or are they going to have a boom too?

I believe they will have the boom, as this will enable them to refuel the F-111 for the two years that they will cross paths.
We certainly have had only 5 tankers but that was due to the fact they were only filling the F-18 fleet. The 707s that we used were not fitted with a boom and hence were not able to refuel the F-111 (one of those decisions that seemed to make the Indonesians quite happy). This limited the tanker fleet to just 70 and really more like 50 actual operational aircraft.

I haven;t seen anything in the last few weeks regarding the wedgetail, so I assume all is well!  Wink

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