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Greyhound
Topic Author
Posts: 1012
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 1:37 am

Military Just Like Civilian Corporations...

Thu Jul 21, 2005 3:47 am

How goes it all? I'm writing this with about 3-4 weeks left on the job, then I'll be discharged. The story (however long and boring it might get) is here:

Last February after deciding to reenlist for 4 years in the Navy, I was transferred to the USS Pennsylvania (from USS Ohio). While working out one day during our usual PT (physical training for normal people), I started our 1 1'2-2? mile run. After less than half a mile, I was bent down by the side of the road gasping for air..... couldn't get a good breath to save me... I went into medical, where my ship's corpsman did a bunch of stuff trying to figure out what was wrong....

Eventually I was sent to a pulmonologist where, after the space of a few months, he concluded I had asthma. Now, the rules in the Navy are that if you have asthma, you can't be on submarines (I don't like it, but it makes sense). He did, however, make me fit for full duty on a surface ship. And I subsequently passed my sea duty screening. This took place (along with my medical submarine disqualification) on or about the middle of October. Now, this whole time, no mention was ever given as to the possibility of me still being 'sent home'. I was married in January down in Arizona, and my wife and I went to San Diego for a few days before taking Amtrak back up to Seattle. We also have a little boy on the way, due mid-November (8-11).

Late May is where it got interesting. The last week of May, before I flew out 1st week of June to PHX, I got a notice saying I was supposed to be administratively seperated due to the asthma. I didn't know where it came from, and noone who's dealt with my case, from the YN's to the Undersea Medical Officer (UMO) at Bangor to ANY of the people involved with my case at the clinic had any clue as to where the message came from. After I got back, still no word. About 3 weeks ago or so I got the word that they reached the guy who sent the message and they more or less gave me the answer that he was just under instruction from someone else in BUPERS, or BUMED, one of the two (Bureau of ....). Still no explanation WHY. Still no definite date as to WHEN. Yesterday the legalman chief explained to me that the manner in which they were processing me out was involuntary, but that they weren't classifying it as a disability (they being the Navy, not the VA).

The only thing I could get out of her was that a good estimate as to when I'd be discharged would be sometime not later than the 2nd or 3rd week of August. No exact date could be given.

Ultimately, my beef lies in their procedures, mainly with notification. Had they informed me that a discharge was still a possibility, and don't make any long term plans because of that, I would have had alot more opportunity to get myself back home to AZ. Yes, they will pay for me to move (to my ultimate home of record or some place nearby) within 180-360 days of me sepearating (since it was involuntary) but that does nothing to help the job search, expenses with the child, medical care (two of my inhalers alone will cost me $225 a month to refill, and that's not counting two other inhalers, an allergy pill, allergy eyedrops, or Guaifenisin to help cough up the @$#^ that drains into my lungs) or a house/apartment search. Had they informed me WAAAAYYYY ahead of time, I wouldn't have gone to SAN for the honeymoon, I probably would have just gone up near Port Angeles for a couple of days, and instead of going home in June w/ the wife, I would have gone with just me, myself and I to look for a job and maybe get an interview.

I DO have a resume in with Lockheed Martin, both online and with a certain employee who's nice enough to take a hard copy around to a few different people, and I'll be drafting one shortly for GD Electric Boat in PSNS. HOWEVER, I'm still anxious as to what will happen because although LM might hire ex-MT's left and right automatically (to do the job MT's used to do on shore duty at SWFPAC, i.e. warhead assembly/maintenance, various 'handling' jobs), I can't count on the job as a 'sure thing' until I see that paycheck in my hand. One more thing before I quit @#$^%& for a while, they won't extend me until the kid is born either. I'm glad he's on the way, he's a real blessing, but it will make it sufficiently tougher to advance education, take care of health care costs and pay the bills once I'm out of the military and I have him to take care of. This would normally be the case if I was just getting out at the end of a normal enlistment, but I got blindsided on this one.

And one last thing, I'm not the only person this sort of thing has happened to... I know immediately of at least two other cases where people were in similar situations and this happened to them (not asthma related either!) including a first class who was booted with 13 years in. Any coincidence how this is happening when the Navy is trying like the devil to trim the ranks by 20,000+? I think not.

Sorry for ranting and raving, but I needed some place to vent. And what better place than airwhiners.net?  rotfl  I keed, I keed.
29th, Let's Go!
 
dl021
Posts: 10836
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 12:04 pm

RE: Military Just Like Civilian Corporations...

Thu Jul 21, 2005 4:35 am

Greyhound.

I'm sorry that this is happening. I assume you have gone to the IG and asked that the case be reviewed since the medics are telling you that you are fit for duty, so I have to assume that you are ready to go.

If so you might want to see whats available down in Kings Bay. They seem to be hiring, the last I checked, both civilians for DOD and the missile complex with LM.

Thanks for your service, and congratulations on the marriage and the child.

Good luck.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
TedTAce
Posts: 9098
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RE: Military Just Like Civilian Corporations...

Thu Jul 21, 2005 4:41 am

You'd have been best served by posting in military/Space.. But.. as stuupid civi, I don't know WTF they think they are doing discharging on anything other then medical.. SEEMS illegal to me.
This space intentionally left blank
 
Greyhound
Topic Author
Posts: 1012
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 1:37 am

RE: Military Just Like Civilian Corporations...

Thu Jul 21, 2005 6:03 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 2):
You'd have been best served by posting in military/Space..

I didn't even notice at the time I posted in the civil aviation forum. I thought I had sent it to the non-av forum. Brainfart on my part. oops.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 1):
I'm sorry that this is happening. I assume you have gone to the IG and asked that the case be reviewed since the medics are telling you that you are fit for duty, so I have to assume that you are ready to go.

If so you might want to see whats available down in Kings Bay. They seem to be hiring, the last I checked, both civilians for DOD and the missile complex with LM.

Thanks for your service, and congratulations on the marriage and the child.

Good luck.

I can't file an appeal for an administrative board until I have 6 years in. I only have right now, just under 5 1/2. As for King's Bay, I was there once... not sure I want to go there again. Georgia isin't too bad, but down in the swamp my allergies would torture me.
29th, Let's Go!
 
SlamClick
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RE: Military Just Like Civilian Corporations...

Thu Jul 21, 2005 6:05 am

Bizarre.

A guy I knew had the opposite sort of thing happen. He had a congenital defect, told the Army about it, got drafted anyway. A year later they "discover" that he has this condition and medically retire him. He gets a pension and commissary privileges!

When I was about to leave active duty I was offered a deal that included going back to Vietnam. Alternative - get out three months early. Well I thought that one over for a while! Some of my contemporaries were not given the choice and some were sent back to the big live-fire exercise for short tours before getting out on schedule.

Another branch was paying its pilots ten and later fifteen thousand dollar bonuses to get out early. All they would have had to do was open the gate and these guys would have been gone like a shot, but here they come with bonuses for doing what they wanted to do anyway.

Never try to figure out why the military does anything.

Anyway, welcome back to the "real world" and good luck with your career plans.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
SATL382G
Posts: 2679
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RE: Military Just Like Civilian Corporations...

Thu Jul 21, 2005 6:36 am

This time a year ago the Air Force was, and may still be, using medical deployment disqualifiers to weed people out. Goal being to trim down to manpower limits by discharging folks who can't deploy.

Caused a stink at first because the initial go around tried to put out a bunch of people who wanted a career and who only had temporary or career field related medical issues. Reason returned when they tried to put out a majority of the CMSgts( E-9s) in the pararescue jumper (PJ) career field (a high injury rate AFSC). PJs raised the BS flag saying hey we can't lose all our senior enlisted experience.

For me though the policy is a good thing if rationally applied. I've been in situations where I've had to extend my deployment, take a deployment at short notice, or deploy again shortly after returning because someone "suddenly" developed a disqualifying medical condition. A number of these people are habitual and needed to be put out.

regards
"There’s nothing quite as exhilarating as being shot at and missed" --Winston Churchill
 
AirRyan
Posts: 2399
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 9:57 am

RE: Military Just Like Civilian Corporations...

Thu Jul 21, 2005 7:16 am

Quoting Greyhound (Thread starter):
Yesterday the legalman chief explained to me that the manner in which they were processing me out was involuntary, but that they weren't classifying it as a disability (they being the Navy, not the VA).

First of all - don't sweat it, I've been there and done that and you'll be covered one way or another.

I was in the Marines working on helo's and it took the docs over a year to find, even cleared me for overseas deployment during the time because they had no reason not to, but once I came back and did the same test again, they were able to diagnose me and begin my med discharge.

What still irks me was that I wasted my own money (E4 pay) on some worthless former JAG whom I thought would work in my best interest, because I wanted to make sure that if I was going to med discharged that I would receive all that I had available to me. Turns out I did all the legwork and research, and in hindsight I would have been better off just requesting a current Navy JAG and going in front of the PEB.

One thing to note is that a medical discharge is classified as an involuntary separation and so you will have some of those entitlements made available to you, but not necessarily any money. In my case, I stupidly thought the Texas Hazlewood Act would pay for college so I declined the GI Bill in boot camp but being medically discharged I was able to contribute the $1200 before I was discharged and get it – something that having just graduated college a little over 4 years later netter me somewhere in the ballpark of $20k. (When I first got out, the GI Bill was like $500 a month, now it’s a little over $1000.)

My beef is that the Marines didn't want to pay me a severance pay and so because I choose not to take my case to court I reluctantly accepted the discharge with their ruling that my "disability existed prior to service." However, there is no medical evidence available that knows what causes what it was that I have so being that I did not have it when I went into boot camp, not to mention the specialist ruling that I did not have it just a year earlier when he could not find anything and cleared me for overseas deployment, but since that case cannot be proven in the medical field, when I did get out the VA took all of 3-4 weeks to award me a 20% disability rating which among many other things, pays for any and all meds that I might need for the disability. In that case, don't sweat the meds problem, the VA right now is great.

My advice would be to save your own money and ask to see a Navy JAG and discuss your case - since you did not have it when you came in, but evidently have it now - you may be able to get a severance check. I'm not completely up to speed on asthma, but like I say in my case, with my disability there is just no evidence out there other than speculation as to what may cause my condition, and since I got through all the training of which I would be hard pressed to ever do again, I should have been able to easily state my case that my condition contrary as to what the PEB and my DD-214 now reads, my disability did not exist prior to entry.

Even with that said, if you were cleared by the doc for surface duty and you want to stay in, you may very well be permitted per the PEB to limited duty. Since I took the med discharge and can technically go back in if a doc states that I no longer have my condition, there is no known cure as of yet and just to get back to MEPS you would need such a statement. I think that if I had wanted to back then, I could have asked for and been permitted to stay in even in my same MOS working on helicopters, but since I neither seemingly nobody including the Doc knew little to nothing about my condition, I wanted out back then, too. If I could go back in today in any sort of limited role, in any branch I would. My VA Doc wrote me a letter saying that I could do pretty much anything other than a combat MOS, but even that wasn't evidently good enough to even forward my package to MEPS for initial pre-screen.

Moral of the story is that if you want to stay in you likely can, and if you do take or get forced into a medical discharge, make sure you at least speak to a JAG about getting a severance pay. An E3 with 3 years is about $9k in severance pay, and not only did I get screwed out of that, I wasted $5k out of my own pocket on that crummy evil lawyer. Feel free to ask questions.
 
Greyhound
Topic Author
Posts: 1012
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 1:37 am

RE: Military Just Like Civilian Corporations...

Thu Jul 21, 2005 7:20 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 4):
Anyway, welcome back to the "real world" and good luck with your career plans.

Thanks. I think I'd feel differently about this whole crock of @#^@ if I was getting out on my own. Hey, nothing to complain about then. My choice, my decision, so you live with the consequences then. BUT I keep feeling like I got shafted. I figure if I was in the Army right now, they'd probably look the other way. It's all about supply and demand I guess. Army wants people so bad they'll do whatever (sometimes) to get people to sign up. Navy is downsizing, so they'll look for any reason there is to let go of people. The worst thing is, if this was a policy, as much as I can disagree with it, I could still live with it. It's that lack of proper warning thing that gets me. I've never even gotten in trouble! How do you expect someone to navigate a ship if you don't give them the right charts at the right time? In a way, seeing as how people get laid off all the time due to corporate downsizing, I guess I really am getting a (rude) indoctrination to the 'real world'.

Quoting SATL382G (Reply 5):
For me though the policy is a good thing if rationally applied.

Oh, if only it was. I can understand the policy of weeding people out if you can afford to. But they were telling me one thing for the longest time and then they just dropped a bomb on me. That's the thing that irks me. Sad thing is I want to beat the #@$#^#@^ out of someone, or at least just yell and scream over this, but who? The people who make these sorts of decisions sit in their cushy little offices somewhere where the bottom line is how to cut 32,000 bucks a year (about what I make) with no regard to the lives affected, so they can blow another couple million in Iraq in one day. Amazing. Ah well, welcome to the real world indeed.
29th, Let's Go!
 
Greyhound
Topic Author
Posts: 1012
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 1:37 am

RE: Military Just Like Civilian Corporations...

Thu Jul 21, 2005 7:24 am

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 6):
One thing to note is that a medical discharge is classified as an involuntary separation and so you will have some of those entitlements made available to you, but not necessarily any money.

Except I don't know how that will pan out as far as seperation pay goes, since they're discharging me, BUT NOT saying I have a disability. Just give me a Louisville Slugger and two seconds in a dark alley with the knothead who blindly makes these decisions...  devil 
29th, Let's Go!
 
AirRyan
Posts: 2399
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 9:57 am

RE: Military Just Like Civilian Corporations...

Thu Jul 21, 2005 7:34 am

Quoting Greyhound (Reply 8):
Except I don't know how that will pan out as far as seperation pay goes, since they're discharging me, BUT NOT saying I have a disability. Just give me a Louisville Slugger and two seconds in a dark alley with the knothead who blindly makes these decisions...

That doesn't make any sense - under what provisions are they involuntarily discharging you under? If your not even getting a medical, request a JAG - it's your right. Remeber the stories of those sucks that stay in as long as they can until the service bascially denies them re-enlistment because they are not able to be promoted high enough for their length of service and thereby has to pay them a severance pay? If the Navy isn't even offering you a severance check, and I guess depending upon your EAS date and all, it sounds like you could use a legal explanation as to what they Navy is doing - your situation doesn't sound "kosher."
 
L-188
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RE: Military Just Like Civilian Corporations...

Thu Jul 21, 2005 11:07 am

You filed a complaint letter with your congressman yet?
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
ruger11
Posts: 50
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RE: Military Just Like Civilian Corporations...

Thu Jul 21, 2005 6:07 pm

First off, I am sorry to hear about your situation. I was in the exact OPPOSITE situation prior to joining the Marines three years ago. You see I lived in Colorado Springs for four years, ran cross country, climbed 6x 14,000 foot peaks (not counting the pikes peak drive you cheaters...) etc etc. So when I went to MEPS to enlist in the Marines I thought nothing of it, hey, I was healthy, right? Well unlike a normal civilian joining the military who gets a new medical record when they join, I grew up with my dad in the Army, so I had a military medical record, so they kept that. (which makes my record rediculously thick compared to a normal Marine's, btw... cause it's got everything from birth) Well the Doc (corpsman) starts reading it, saw some clinical diagnosis of "possible childhood asthma" when I was 5 years old, calls me a liar for not admitting to this (which I didn't know about) and I am sent home and recieve a notice I am not able to enlist. Well I went about getting this changes, and getting a medical waiver... and the process took 1 and a half YEARS. I took three cardio pulmonary fuction tests and a methacholine challenge test, the last of which I paid for out of my parents own pocket at a heart and lung specialist. All this to finally get in a year after I actually graduated high school. Needless to say, someone with a bit less knowledge o the system, not having free acess to medical care, and not as well off financially would have never been able to spend so much time effort and money to get in. I was shocked, and so was everyone I talked to, including my recruiter. I think in the end my package was rejected two or three times by bumed.

Well I know that was long, but I just wanted you to know what while I know your situation is a LOT worse and all, that others can sympathaize, I hope it works out for you with getting a good job. In three years I've met some great sailors, a special shoutout to TM1 "Z" aboard the USS Miami... he was a good guy, gave myself and a friend a personal tour of the boat. I have endless respect for submariners, you do a job I admit I don't think I could.

Semper Fi
 
AirRyan
Posts: 2399
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 9:57 am

RE: Military Just Like Civilian Corporations...

Fri Jul 22, 2005 12:12 am

That really blows about the asthma BS - I know pilots who had small indications but weened themselves off of it with pills from a civie doc while they were in USAF flight training, and still went on to a long and successful flying career. Nothing is more frustrating when alledged medical professionals know less than you do about your medical condition.
 
Greyhound
Topic Author
Posts: 1012
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 1:37 am

RE: Military Just Like Civilian Corporations...

Fri Jul 22, 2005 12:16 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 10):
You filed a complaint letter with your congressman yet?

I'm waiting until this whole thing is over and I'm out. If for some reason things miraculously changed, I'd look like a fool saying they're jerks, when I turned out ok. I don't think that will be the case, but I'm definetly drafting a letter to Senator McCain.

Quoting Ruger11 (Reply 11):
you do a job I admit I don't think I could.

Semper Fi

Hoo yah. I couldn't be a Marine. Alot of people say they couldn't be submariners, but it's not that bad at all. Definetly not like the movies.
29th, Let's Go!
 
Greyhound
Topic Author
Posts: 1012
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 1:37 am

RE: Military Just Like Civilian Corporations...

Sat Jul 23, 2005 1:13 am

Here's the kicker to this whole thing...

I found out today that due to the fact I have only 5 1/2 years in, I can neither file a request for an administrative board and I WON'T recieve any seperation pay because of only 5 1/2 years in. You have to have 6 years in for that stuff to happen. It's a wonder why people don't go postal more often. Also, since the people at BUPERS sent the message, there's nothing that my current CO can do as far as overriding their decision and recommending me for retention.
29th, Let's Go!
 
AirRyan
Posts: 2399
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 9:57 am

RE: Military Just Like Civilian Corporations...

Sat Jul 23, 2005 1:40 am

I still don't see how and who for that matter is discharging you? My med board took 8 months from the time of my diagnosis to the time I was actually let go. It sounds like someone is trying to expedite you in order to dodge a rather large severance pay for the 6 year mark and from what you describe, without even your command knowing much about it, sounds like some answers that aren't being answered. Even for a PEB your command writes a "non-medical assessment" and to what degree they take that in account I do not know, but if you want to stay in and your command is in favor of it, getting 6 months to meet the 6 year mark for compensation would be a non-issue.

Maybe those in the Department of the Navy are trying to save a few dimes and that's why your slated to get the shaft right before you would be due severance.

As a Marine that is one thing I disliked about some of the sailors I worked with or saw - unlike where as in the Corps if your shat stunk or whatnot they had the balls to come right out and tell you - I saw too many Petty, and I do mean "Petty" Officers and CPO's act like weasels when it served them - cowardice if you will. Like I say ask for a JAG - it's your right.

I worked on helicopters in the Marines and my medical condition prohibits me in no way from doing the same thing today, I just needed some time to figure out what it was that I had. In that aspect, I wish I was still in or at least could go back.

Find out why they are discharging you and what re-enlistment code they are going to assign you. If it's anything other than RE-1A request a JAG. RE-3P is the code for physical disability via a medical discharge and in my case, they denied me severance because they labeled as EPTE, or existed prior to entry under line 28 titled "Narrative Reason for Discharge." Find out what they plan to write in this line, as it has turned out to be a very important statement for me and my situation.

Even though my discharge was honorable, I still don't like having this line on my DD-214 which automatically tells everyone that looks at to include potential employers that I have a medical disability; one that especially irks me since I obviously did not have it when I came in, similar in such to what your condition with asthma sounds like although like I say, there may be more solid medical evidence with it than there is with my condition.

Well, as was then and now, there is no medical evidence to say what causes it as well as it's predisposition, so I sent a Form DD-149 requesting that that "narrative reason for discharge" be deleted since the VA ruled the other way, that of what the medical evidence shows.

My point is this - my advice would be to clear all these things up now before you sign and accept all that they will want you to, because it's a lot easier to get a JAG and seek what is right now while your in rather than 5 years down the road as such is my case.

[Edited 2005-07-22 19:06:12]
 
AirRyan
Posts: 2399
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RE: Military Just Like Civilian Corporations...

Sat Jul 23, 2005 12:36 pm

I found some interesting information that you may find useful - if they are discharging you for your asthma, which is a medical reason, but are not "medically" discharging you, then it sounds like that would be a violation of the following US law:

Quote:
U.S. Code states that no Active Duty Service member may be discharged for a disability without getting a MEB if you ASK FOR IT. Fill out your service's miscellaneous separation request form and for reasoning put physical disability. If they discharge you without the MEB you will have the legal right to obtain a lawyer and sue the service for the MEB to obtain a medical retirement/benefits.

US CODE Title 10, Subtitle A, Part II, Chapter 61, 1214:

""No member of the armed forces may be retired or separated for physical disability without a full and fair hearing if he demands it. ""

Demand it.
 
AFHokie
Posts: 220
Joined: Mon May 17, 2004 3:29 am

RE: Military Just Like Civilian Corporations...

Sun Jul 24, 2005 2:22 am

I'm sure we all have stories of how gooned up the military is, I have a friend that kept getting paid as an E-5 for over a year after he completed OTS, took the group and wing commander and a few hundred phone calls to afpc and denver to sort it out. Then there's another friend from college that tore his acl playing football in highschool, was in army rotc, they let him go, said with that injury he couldn't be an officer, but by all means he could enlist in the army...which do you think is more physically demanding in the long term? I can go on and on... Myself included had some med issues, I wanted to fly more than anything, my vision is too bad for pilot, but the MEPS said my depth perception was also too bad for NAV. Found out three years later, that no, nothing is wrong with my depth perception.

Like anything in life, especially in the military, if someone says no, ask someone else. Where there is a will, there is a waiver.

Good luck, and definatly do like AirRyan has suggested, talk to the JAG, and at this point, I would follow L-188's advice and fire off a letter to your congressman too, sounds like you don't have the time to dally at this point
 
dl021
Posts: 10836
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RE: Military Just Like Civilian Corporations...

Sun Jul 24, 2005 5:30 am

I am certain that the Navy has a version of the IG. You need to use it if you feel you are being shafted, especially if your condition does not preclude you from useful duty.

Go to the Inspector General, and if necessary....as a last resort...go to your congressman/senator. There is always a process to appeal decisions made by BUPERS/PAC people.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
Greyhound
Topic Author
Posts: 1012
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 1:37 am

RE: Military Just Like Civilian Corporations...

Wed Jul 27, 2005 2:54 am

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 15):
I still don't see how and who for that matter is discharging you?

All I have been told is that "someone" in BUPERS has said that I have to get out.... all I hear about are presumptions and guesses and "facts" that seem to change (i.e. the whole you're gonna go to the surface fleet, no wait we're going to kick you out bit). I went to talk to Navy Legal Services yesterday and the attorney I talked to (an O-3) was generally useless as far as information goes. He didn't really tell me anything that I hadn't allready heard.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 18):
...go to your congressman/senator.

That's allready on my mind. Whatever the outcome of this case, this whole process is screwed up bad.

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 16):
Quote:
U.S. Code states that no Active Duty Service member may be discharged for a disability without getting a MEB if you ASK FOR IT. Fill out your service's miscellaneous separation request form and for reasoning put physical disability. If they discharge you without the MEB you will have the legal right to obtain a lawyer and sue the service for the MEB to obtain a medical retirement/benefits.

US CODE Title 10, Subtitle A, Part II, Chapter 61, 1214:

""No member of the armed forces may be retired or separated for physical disability without a full and fair hearing if he demands it. ""

Demand it.

He never mentioned anything about this. The exact "code" or what not from the MILPERSMAN is 1910-120:

1. Seperation by Reason of Convenience of the Government-Physical or Mental Condition.

The only thing that the attorney told me was that "they (the government) can do that". More or less that was the response I got. As far as this goes:

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 16):
If they discharge you without the MEB you will have the legal right to obtain a lawyer and sue the service for the MEB to obtain a medical retirement/benefits.

At whose expense? I would if I could, but right now my only concern is getting a job that can provide medical care for my wife and kid (on the way), not to mention myself.
29th, Let's Go!
 
AirRyan
Posts: 2399
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 9:57 am

RE: Military Just Like Civilian Corporations...

Wed Jul 27, 2005 3:26 am

Quoting Greyhound (Reply 19):
At whose expense? I would if I could, but right now my only concern is getting a job that can provide medical care for my wife and kid (on the way), not to mention myself.

I totally understand your dillemma there - I ended up wasting $5k on a civillian who was a fomer JAG and all they did was basically hold my hand and watch while I did all the legwork and research. The entire intent of practicing law is to explain the law to the layperson, not leave out details that would have saved me my time and money. Hey, business is all about making money, but in my case my attorney knew the outcome would not matter to the extent of what I was asking him help for, and he just took my retainer and watched the process that he knew pan out. So not only did I not get any invluntary sep pay myself, I got stuck with a rather large lawyer fee. With the amount of info available on the internet today compared to just that of 5 years ago, I likely wouldn't make that same mistake today knowing what I do gathered from numerous sources and conversations on the internet.

Keep in mind that JAGs come out of Law School and into the Navy as an O-2 and get O-3 after just one year, so don't be afraid to get a 2nd opinion from a current JAG who likely knows a helluva lot more than some newb.

Now knowing what it is exactly you are looking for, look for a civillian former JAG who knows the system and better yet how to fight it if the current JAG as you described offer you little recourse. A former JAG who is willing to help you out should be able to tell you all exactly what the law is and what they can do for you before collecting a penny, and even then if they feel confident enough in your case should be willing to work on either a contingency that you collect or preferrably that the government reimburses them seperate to your entitlements via a lawsuit for the violation of US CODE Title 10, Subtitle A, Part II, Chapter 61, 1214. I'm no JAG but if there is validity to this said code, a former JAG now practicing as a civillian should be more than capable of telling you what is up.

If their not willing to work on contingency than tell them they either are not very confideny in your case or they are not that good of an attorney and check with another. If you have to hire your own attorney it would be wise to have a good idea on the exact perspective of a current Navy JAG - ask him exactly about the aforementioned US Code and then ask someone on the outside such as a former JAG.

You can find on the internet and in the yellow pages all sorts of former Navy/Marine JAGs who now practice as civillians outside any US Marine or Navy installation. My suggestion would be to just get any agreements between you and your lawyer down in writing in clear and concise language so that there are no misunderstandings if you do pay a retainer. Don't be afraid to ask about itemized billing and exactly how and if you are able to get the fee back. An honest attorney who is confident in their ability to win your case should at least be able to set you straight. Clarifying evrything up front will make things a lot easier when the results come out.

Quoting Greyhound (Reply 19):
The exact "code" or what not from the MILPERSMAN is 1910-120:

1. Seperation by Reason of Convenience of the Government-Physical or Mental Condition.

The only thing that the attorney told me was that "they (the government) can do that". More or less that was the response I got.

If all you may be trying to do at the end is just stay in long enough to get the 6 year involuntary sep pay (anywhere from $11815.20 for E3 with 6 years to $19,688.40 for E7 with 6 years) you may look at asking the JAG about legal hold for whatever reason you two might be able to think of that would still enable to you to collect the pay.

http://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/pay/bl05enlistedseppay.htm

Suffice to say, don't let them discharge you for a medical reason w/o a med board and no involuntary sep pay.

[Edited 2005-07-26 20:26:54]
 
Greyhound
Topic Author
Posts: 1012
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RE: Military Just Like Civilian Corporations...

Wed Jul 27, 2005 4:38 am

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 20):
and no involuntary sep pay

If only they would do what they don't want to do/ can't do or whatever... keep me in so I have 6 years in. Until that point, they aren't required to do anything.
29th, Let's Go!
 
AirRyan
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Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 9:57 am

RE: Military Just Like Civilian Corporations...

Wed Jul 27, 2005 4:55 am

Quoting Greyhound (Reply 21):
keep me in so I have 6 years in. Until that point, they aren't required to do anything.

IF you are within 6 months of your EAS which would place you at 6 years, there are numerous reasons as to how a civillian former JAG who knows the system could file any sort of grievance and just waiting the months for it to come to trial could get you placed on legal hold long enough to get your 6 year mark. Where there is a will there is a way and with that much money in sep pay on the table, I'd have a hard time believing that someone who knows couldn't get something done. They don't charge to tell you what they can do - listen to one or two and then make up your mind.
 
Greyhound
Topic Author
Posts: 1012
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 1:37 am

RE: Military Just Like Civilian Corporations...

Thu Jul 28, 2005 12:56 am

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 22):
there are numerous reasons as to how a civillian former JAG who knows the system could file any sort of grievance and just waiting the months for it to come to trial could get you placed on legal hold long enough to get your 6 year mark.

I've got maybe 2 1/2 weeks left... rough estimate. How do I find someone in that short amount of time that was a former JAG?
29th, Let's Go!
 
covert
Posts: 1528
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2001 1:02 am

RE: Military Just Like Civilian Corporations...

Mon Aug 01, 2005 4:50 am

All is not lost, you can probably make more on the outside provided your TS is current.
none
 
AirRyan
Posts: 2399
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 9:57 am

RE: Military Just Like Civilian Corporations...

Mon Aug 01, 2005 9:39 am

Quoting Greyhound (Reply 23):
I've got maybe 2 1/2 weeks left... rough estimate. How do I find someone in that short amount of time that was a former JAG?

Between the internet and the yellow pages I'm sure you'll find plenty to choose from. Look/search under lawyers and look for ones that claim former JAG service.
 
bsergonomics
Posts: 458
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2002 5:07 am

RE: Military Just Like Civilian Corporations...

Wed Aug 03, 2005 7:19 am

I can't help with the military side, since I'm a both civvie and from across The Pond. However, I would suggest that, in addition to considering the options for staying in, or the compensation for getting booted out, you seriously consider what options are out there in Civvie Street. You briefly mentioned an application to LM, but not the job for which you are applying.

I work (military equipment design) with many ex-servicemen and, depending on which organisation one works for, the posts vary. Examples of these jobs, which can be found even without college experience, include:

1. Training. The best trainers that I have met, for example, are invariably ex-military. You understand not only the equipment, but also the environment in which it will be used and the ways in which service personnel use and treat the equipment. An additional but very important point is that you speak the 'language' of the military personnel.

2. Technical Publications. The ability to speak the 'language' of the user is a great asset and one that significantly improves the usefulness of those publications.

3. Customer Liaison. This isn't just sales pitches. Unfortunately, the average design engineer doesn't understand how the military thinks, from both a personal and an organisational perspective. Many large organisations employ the ex-military as much for their ability to communicate with and manage the 'Customer' as for the ability to perform the day-to-day job.

4. Subject Matter Experts. Someone who knows what they are talking about is an enormous asset to any design programme. You could even turn your present situation on its head by being an SME in legal cases for other service personnel in similar situations.

There are many other options, most of which can be very rewarding, if nothing else then in financial terms.

In short, this seems to be a kick in the proverbials. However, if the military is no longer an option, then there are other options out there.

I wish you the best of luck.
The definition of a 'Pessimist': an Optimist with experience...
 
Greyhound
Topic Author
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Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 1:37 am

RE: Military Just Like Civilian Corporations...

Fri Aug 26, 2005 2:30 am

oh boy it just gets better and better. Latest news in the war on global sanity.... My case was submitted for review by the subgru9 admiral's staff... I got a call the other day to call this LN1 back and talk to her, and from what I can find out from what she told other people in this office, all this hubub may have been caused by someone sending a notice of operational unsuitability instead of a 1306 for rate conversion so BUPERS thought I should get out yesterday (literally... I was told a good "guess" would be that I'd be out by Friday of last week). SO, I still can't get my hopes up, but it looks as though I may have to go pick a new rate out again. I'm going to go find a good concrete wall, and bang my head on it until I'm either tired of doing it or until I knock myself out. I still don't have all of the details yet, as she hasn't been in her office. But, this never-ending circle-jerk continues. One way or another, I think I will look for a way to get out after this current enlistment (which is up in 2008). I know paperwork screwups happen all the time, but this has passed the level of being retarded a while ago.
29th, Let's Go!

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