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ruger11
Topic Author
Posts: 50
Joined: Mon May 16, 2005 4:20 pm

V-22

Fri Jul 29, 2005 6:30 am

I think I figured out how we names this bird. The "22" stands for how many years it will be in development. But seriously, does anyone have an update on progress? Are we going to see units fielded this year? Looking foward to seeing one of them in action.
 
vikkyvik
Posts: 12614
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2003 1:58 pm

RE: V-22

Sat Jul 30, 2005 10:19 am

I don't have any info, but oddly enough, about 5 weeks ago, I saw a V-22 shooting some approaches into Hanscom Field (BED) in Massachusetts. First time I'd ever seen one, and since my house is directly below the approach into runway 23 (which it happened to be using), it flew over 4-5 times. Extremely loud, and it was probably going no more than 70 mph, with the props tilted most of the way upwards.

Very odd, since Hanscom Field, though associated with neighboring Hanscom AFB, does not handle much military traffic at all (though it is the busiest GA airport in New England, apparently).

~Vik
I'm watching Jeopardy. The category is worst Madonna songs. "This one from 1987 is terrible".
 
AirRyan
Posts: 2399
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 9:57 am

RE: V-22

Sat Jul 30, 2005 12:08 pm

They should have already or soon be completing OPEVAL and upon approval for full rate production could have enough to have the 1st operation squadron ready by late 2006.

As a former USMC CH-46E tech I'll believe it when it happens.
 
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STT757
Posts: 14348
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

RE: V-22

Sat Jul 30, 2005 1:11 pm

This looks awesome, the V-22 offers a significant improvement in transport aircraft for the services.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
LMP737
Posts: 6227
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 4:06 pm

RE: V-22

Sat Jul 30, 2005 11:40 pm

Cool picture. By the looks of it any V-22 with it's engines running next to the bridge is not going to have much clearance between the bridge and the tip of the blades.

One thing I noticed in the bottom picture is that the fan tail is well protected. There's not only a Sea Sparrow launcher but a RAM and CIWS as well!
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
AirRyan
Posts: 2399
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 9:57 am

RE: V-22

Sun Jul 31, 2005 2:03 am

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 4):
Cool picture. By the looks of it any V-22 with it's engines running next to the bridge is not going to have much clearance between the bridge and the tip of the blades.

It can't have any less than what the 53' brings into the equation. Whenever possible they just don't use those spots for those birds and now it looks like with 2X as many V-22's as '53s on board they might have to use them a little more often.

Even with just 8 V-22's (compared to the 12+ or so '46s we used to bring aboard) the flight deck is going to be really cluttered. Personally I'd rather have USMC US-101's and a little .50 cal self-protection than the extra speed of the V-22.
 
Finkenwerder
Posts: 120
Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2005 4:54 am

RE: V-22

Sun Jul 31, 2005 5:31 am

In my humble opinion this aircraft is...not Sufficiently tested nor sufficiently safe to enter service.

A few problems of note

1. Ring vortex once entered is very difficult if not impossible to recover from.

2. Massive downwash produces white brown or black outs depending on the terrain at upto 100ft in the hover.

2. Autorotation is unobtainable in any true sense of the term.
As a consequence of this double engine failure is unsurvivable. Unless your on the ramp. (Contaminated fuel is the number one cause of double engine failures in shipborne rotorcraft.. a not so rare occurrence)

4. Single engine failure is problematic the aircraft is sensitive in the hover even using two and susceptible to PIO at all times in this phase.

5. Imagine taking this aircraft into combat getting shot at, (no means of self defence fitted !) and then sustaining Battle damage and then having to make a single engine approach in bad wex, possibly overweight....etc etc

By the way this has all been mentioned before in another thread !

[Edited 2005-07-30 22:41:48]
 
Wiggidy
Posts: 110
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 11:06 am

RE: V-22

Sun Jul 31, 2005 6:57 am

Quoting Finkenwerder (Reply 6):
Ring vortex once entered is very difficult if not impossible to recover from.

Do you mean ring vortex state? As in settling with power in a normal helicopter? This is very dangerous in any rotorwing aircraft, but what makes it any less recoverable than a helicopter? As long as the pilot reduces power and moves out of "dirty" air then it should be recoverable. We practice this maneuver in all phases of rotorwing certification, I would think the marines do the same.
-Wes
 
Duce50Boom
Posts: 723
Joined: Tue May 29, 2001 8:03 am

RE: V-22

Sun Jul 31, 2005 3:45 pm

Quoting Finkenwerder (Reply 6):
1. Ring vortex once entered is very difficult if not impossible to recover from.

2. Massive downwash produces white brown or black outs depending on the terrain at upto 100ft in the hover.

As Wiggidy mentioned, these two problems are endemic to all rotary wing aircraft. The V-22 will not be the first aircraft to suffer from ring vortex or brown out. I'd imagine the other problems will have to have more supplementary training to overcome. However the growing pains, there were just as much if not more during the transition from props to jets
 
CTR
Posts: 299
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 4:57 am

RE: V-22

Mon Aug 01, 2005 12:12 am

Finkenwerder,

The V-22 has had both its share of real early design flaws and a rash of bad luck to boot. But the biggest obstacle the Osprey has had to over come is a flood of out of date, distorted and down right untruths spread by individuals with special interests.

Supposed aviation experts also continue to apply their helicopter rules of flight to the V-22. Well the V-22 is not a helicopter, it is a Tiltrotor. And Tiltrotors have capabilities provided by their wings and tilting nacelles that when used properly eliminate most of the problems you quoted.

1. Ring vortex once entered is very difficult if not impossible to recover from.

Vortex Ring State or as it is commonly known setteling under power affects all helicopters both tandem and tail rotor when they drop to rapidly over one spot. In a tandem CH-46 VRS induces pitch and the condition is relieved. In tail rotors you keep dropping. In Tiltrotors VRS can induce roll, but if you rotate the nacelles slightly forward VRS is relieved. V-22 pilots are now trained in this maneuver.

2. Massive downwash produces white brown or black outs depending on the terrain at upto 100ft in the hover.

This problem affects all rotor craft. V-22 pilots have developed a technique however that reduces the problem to a level much better that CH-46 it replaces. During final approach the nacelles are rotated slightly forward while using the cyclic to reduce forward speed. This blows the dust behind their field of view.

2. Autorotation is unobtainable in any true sense of the term.
As a consequence of this double engine failure is unsurvivable. Unless your on the ramp. (Contaminated fuel is the number one cause of double engine failures in shipborne rotorcraft.. a not so rare occurrence)

Based on the V-22s rotor diameter and inertia, analysis predicts that a pure autorotation would be iffy at best. But guess what! The V-22 has a wing with huge flaps! Any degree of forward speed provides substantial lift. To provide directional stability in autorotation and select a landing spot helicopters hardly ever autorotate straight down. V-22 Pilots are trained to maintain required forward speed for autorotation landings.

4. Single engine failure is problematic the aircraft is sensitive in the hover even using two and susceptible to PIO at all times in this phase.

Pilot Induced oscillations in earlier aircraft were related to the Fly-by-Wire flight control system issues, not single engine power. These problems have been corrected. The V-22 also has sufficient power to climb with one engine.

5. Imagine taking this aircraft into combat getting shot at, (no means of self defense fitted !) and then sustaining Battle damage and then having to make a single engine approach in bad wex, possibly overweight....etc

All flight critical V-22 systems and components are either redundant or designed and tested for ballistic tolerance. The ballistic tolerance requirements imposed on the V-22 are higher that ANY existing fielded helicopter.

If by no means of self defense you infer no way to shoot back with bullets, you are (currently) correct. However the V-22 is the best equipped vertical lift aircraft known to deal with IR and radar guided missiles. I am not referring to chaff and flares (although it has them). Some of those strange bumps you see on the V-22 are radar guided lasers.

The V-22 also has both an IR and radar signature much smaller than any similar payload helicopter.

Finally, it flys further and faster (even with just one engine).

By the way. In answer to the original question. The V-22 has completed OPEVAL, and although the results will not be formally announced until Sept., all reports indicate it will be approve for full production. Currently approximately 40 V-22s have been delivered to the Marines/Navy.

Have fun,

CTR
Aircraft design is just one big compromise,,,
 
Boeing Nut
Posts: 5078
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2001 2:42 am

RE: V-22

Mon Aug 01, 2005 12:28 am

Yea, I think I remember a recent article in AW&ST stating that with the political B.S. out of the way and the new designs implemented that the Osprey is actually doing quite well. Even better than expected.
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
jrw261
Posts: 35
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2005 9:32 pm

RE: V-22

Mon Aug 08, 2005 1:48 am

As for OPEVAL, its been completed and done right this time. They also had a Media day where a lot of skeptics came out and took rides in the bird. Many if not all were very impressed and surprised that they would be aloud to go for rides. Many described the flight as more aggressive than most or any transport helicopters and a few even got sick... no surprise, their reporters.

Here is Boeings news release:
http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2005/q3/nr_050714n.html

one of Bell's
http://www.bellhelicopter.com/en/com...yInfo/pressReleases/PR_7152005.cfm

and on another note, the 609
http://www.bellhelicopter.com/en/com...ressReleases/PR_Tiltrotor72205.cfm

If you search the web there are some accounts of the flight given by reporters, I cant seem to find them quickly but I know they are there.

CTR knows what he is talking about on the 22 and there are way too many rumors floating around on this aircraft. Its a great bird that overcame some pretty large hurdles and will only get better with time.

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