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JakeOrion
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Venezuela Weighs Selling U.S. Jets To Iran

Wed May 17, 2006 2:24 am

Oh this is perfect...

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/05/16/D8HL07900.html

Venezuela is considering selling its fleet of U.S.-made F-16 fighter jets to another country, perhaps Iran, in response to a U.S. ban on arms sales to President Hugo Chavez's government, a military official said Tuesday.

Gen. Alberto Muller, a senior adviser to Chavez, told The Associated Press he had recommended to the defense minister that Venezuela consider selling the 21 jets to another country.

Muller said he thought it was worthwhile to consider "the feasibility of a negotiation with Iran for the sale of those planes."

Even before the U.S. announced the ban on arms sales Monday, Washington had stopped selling Venezuela sensitive upgrades for the F- 16s.

Chavez has previously warned he could share the U.S. jets with Cuba if Washington does not supply parts for the planes. He also has said he may look into buying fighter jets from Russia or China instead.
 
AirRyan
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RE: Venezuela Weighs Selling U.S. Jets To Iran

Wed May 17, 2006 2:29 am

Is Chavez really that ignorant? Its only the bleeding heart liberals in this country that has allowed the rampant corruption to manifest and exist as it does in Central/South America, the US could if they wanted completely erase their existance overnight if they so wished.

If the US didn't want the Venezula F-16's to go anywhere and in particular to Iran, trust me - they'd never make it over there. A more likely scenario would be to just destroy the planes on Venezula soil via cruise missile or B-2 flights, but that would still be awfully bold.
 
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ptrjong
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RE: Venezuela Weighs Selling U.S. Jets To Iran

Wed May 17, 2006 2:39 am

Trust me, Iran doesn't even want a handful of older F-16s without spares.

Peter
 
JakeOrion
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RE: Venezuela Weighs Selling U.S. Jets To Iran

Wed May 17, 2006 2:41 am

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 1):
Its only the bleeding heart liberals in this country that has allowed the rampant corruption to manifest and exist as it does in Central/South America, the US could if they wanted completely erase their existance overnight if they so wished.

I'm a conservative for the record, but Bush has not done any better as of late. Both parties are at fault when it comes to this.

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 1):
Is Chavez really that ignorant?

Basically, he's blackmailing the U.S. Give me these parts or I'll sell them off to (some terrorist country/etc.)

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 1):
If the US didn't want the Venezula F-16's to go anywhere and in particular to Iran, trust me - they'd never make it over there

Libya all over again really. And speaking of Libya, seems like Qadhafi is finally talking with the U.S. again, after Regen put him in his place of course.  Wink
 
11Bravo
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RE: Venezuela Weighs Selling U.S. Jets To Iran

Wed May 17, 2006 2:43 am

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 1):
Its only the bleeding heart liberals in this country that has allowed the rampant corruption to manifest and exist as it does in Central/South America

...and how exactly does that work considering Republicans have controlled the government for the last five years?  Yeah sure

This is just bluster by Chavez. If Venezuela really tries to sell the jets to Iran, there would be no option but to destroy the aircraft. Chavez knows that. It ain't going to happen.
 
SlamClick
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RE: Venezuela Weighs Selling U.S. Jets To Iran

Wed May 17, 2006 3:10 am

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 4):
...and how exactly does that work considering Republicans have controlled the government for the last five years?

Sounds like you believe that the Venezuela where a guy like Chavez could come to power just sprang into existence suddenly at the moment he was ready. These things are some time building.

Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 2):
Iran doesn't even want a handful of older F-16s without spares

Exactly!

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 4):
If Venezuela really tries to sell the jets to Iran, there would be no option but to destroy the aircraft. Chavez knows that.

Exactly again.

Reminds me of Khrushchev pounding his shoe on the table at the UN. Bluster.
 
MigFan
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RE: Venezuela Weighs Selling U.S. Jets To Iran

Wed May 17, 2006 3:39 am

Who cares what he does with them?

If the US does not want to sell him the parts, what else can he do? Just let them sit there? The real trick would be to fabricate the parts locally and keep the jets flying. That would be the big finger at the US. Much in the same manner Iran has done with it's F-4s and F-14s.

Politics or not, the US not selling the parts is bull... ( I am not defending Chavez)

/M
 
LMP737
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RE: Venezuela Weighs Selling U.S. Jets To Iran

Wed May 17, 2006 4:18 am

First they would have to get them there. This can be done two ways . You can fly them to Iran. The problem is even with external fuel tanks they won't make it. And I seriously doubt that the DOD is going to provide them with tankers to get them to Iran. The other meathod is to crate them up and put them on a ship. This of course would be open to interception by the USN.
 
AirRyan
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RE: Venezuela Weighs Selling U.S. Jets To Iran

Wed May 17, 2006 5:00 am

Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 3):
Quoting AirRyan (Reply 1):
Its only the bleeding heart liberals in this country that has allowed the rampant corruption to manifest and exist as it does in Central/South America, the US could if they wanted completely erase their existance overnight if they so wished.

I'm a conservative for the record, but Bush has not done any better as of late. Both parties are at fault when it comes to this.



Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 4):
...and how exactly does that work considering Republicans have controlled the government for the last five years?

I have a little theory of mine after studying sociology in college and it all goes back to the feminist bleeding heart liberal generation that gives the Liberals what little power that they now have. The modern Democrat party is an insult to that just of JFK's Democratic Party 46 years ago. It's also the main reason Bush hasn't done anything on immigration more than he has up until now is for the same reason the liberals haven't done anything on it, either - they want the illegals votes and will go so far as to ignore the majority opinion of the law-abiding legal residents. I don't go down the ballot and just vote Republican because I don't agree with all that they advocate, but our current generational society is ripe of numberous ailments that can be traced to fundamental misguidance much too lengthy to discuss here.

On a larger scale and without fully expounding upon it here in this forum, I believe we would have won Vietnam before Tet '68 if we would have fought the NVA like we did the Japanese and Germans, and had we expounded upon the will of the Atomic bomb dropped on Japan in WWII, North Korea would be Democratic and open to the World, China may not even be who they are today, and the war in Iraq would have been fought a lot differently (rad: successfully) before we even sent in one US soldier. Going along these same principles Mexico's Government would have been forced to take care for their people long ago or would have been made the 51st state of the US and forced to comply with the confines of reality rather than corruption. My theory is that going back to all of this wonderful "enlightenment" and isillusion versus that of what our grandparents had in WWII is why we fight as "weakly" as we can get away with today and why people like Chavez can hold a country like the US hostage over oil.

Tangent-Off: Iran has no need for F-16's that don't work but China might like get ahold of them (as they did with Pakistan) for their new joint FC-1 aircraft. Iran has shown an ability to actually produce many spare parts for some of their military equipment and while their F-14's are their prized possession, there is no evidence to suggest that they have been able to produce significant F-14 parts. If anything, they might be lucky to field a decent number of F-4's.
 
luisde8cd
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RE: Venezuela Weighs Selling U.S. Jets To Iran

Wed May 17, 2006 1:47 pm

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 1):
If the US didn't want the Venezula F-16's to go anywhere and in particular to Iran, trust me - they'd never make it over there. A more likely scenario would be to just destroy the planes on Venezula soil via cruise missile or B-2 flights, but that would still be awfully bold.

I don't think a ground attack is a feasible option. Imagine the diplomatic response the US would get by attacking Venezuelan soil. Also, there�s a 7000ft high mountain between El Libertador AFB (where the F16s are based) and the sea. Can the tomahawks fly over it?

Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 2):
Trust me, Iran doesn't even want a handful of older F-16s without spares.

Agree.

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 5):
Sounds like you believe that the Venezuela where a guy like Chavez could come to power just sprang into existence suddenly at the moment he was ready. These things are some time building.

Chavez's movement began to take shape in the mid 80s. By 1992 he lead a failed coup-d-etat against the elected govt. of President Perez. He was jailed until 1997, when he was pardoned by President Caldera. In 1998 he ran for president and won the elections. He has been in power for almost 10 years.

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 7):
First they would have to get them there. This can be done two ways . You can fly them to Iran. The problem is even with external fuel tanks they won't make it. And I seriously doubt that the DOD is going to provide them with tankers to get them to Iran. The other meathod is to crate them up and put them on a ship. This of course would be open to interception by the USN.

The Venezuelan Air Force has a KC707 which could be used to refuel the Falcons.

Saludos desde Caracas,
Luis
 
Lumberton
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RE: Venezuela Weighs Selling U.S. Jets To Iran

Wed May 17, 2006 7:44 pm

Associated press is reporting that:
Venezuela Defense Minister Backs off Fighter Jet Sale to Iran
BTW, these are old models, with old avionics. Despite all the bluster, these F-16s have only propaganda value IMO. The expense to operate, without OEM support, would be staggering. Go buy a bunch of Su-27s; it'll make you feel better.  Wink
 
MigFan
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RE: Venezuela Weighs Selling U.S. Jets To Iran

Wed May 17, 2006 8:14 pm

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 9):
The Venezuelan Air Force has a KC707 which could be used to refuel the Falcons.

Does it have a boom it refuel the F-16s?

/M
 
miamiair
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RE: Venezuela Weighs Selling U.S. Jets To Iran

Wed May 17, 2006 9:08 pm

Quoting MigFan (Reply 11):
Does it have a boom it refuel the F-16s?

Yes
 
AirRyan
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RE: Venezuela Weighs Selling U.S. Jets To Iran

Wed May 17, 2006 11:29 pm

If Venezula couldn't get spares for them then where was Iran going to? This was a non-issue that never deserved the attention it got. A block A F-16 in today's day in age would be like one-up on an F-5.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Venezuela Weighs Selling U.S. Jets To Iran

Thu May 18, 2006 12:18 am

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 9):
Also, there�s a 7000ft high mountain between El Libertador AFB (where the F16s are based) and the sea. Can the tomahawks fly over it?

Well... they can pound the crap out of Afganistan, so I'd wager yes.

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 9):
Imagine the diplomatic response the US would get by attacking Venezuelan soil.

From whom exactly? No one could persue a diplomatic campaign against the U.S., they would have to resort to economic tactics to achieve anything (i.e. shut-off oil to the world market)

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 8):
The modern Democrat party is an insult to that just of JFK's Democratic Party 46 years ago

*sigh*  checkmark 
 
wingman
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RE: Venezuela Weighs Selling U.S. Jets To Iran

Thu May 18, 2006 12:54 am

What a joke, the Christian extreme right still blaming those damn libs for everything when they themselves have been in total control of all three branches of government for 6 straight years, preceded by 8 years of split control preceded by 12 years of very conservative control in Bush Sr. and Reagan. It is seriously depressing to see just how many narrow-minded morons there are in this country that can do no better than point fingers at the "other" side instead of sitting down to discuss the issues and put corrective measures into action.

Anyone that wants to place blame for the shitstorm of Iraq, the absolute decline of any respect for this country and the total hatred and mistrust of our country's policies in Latin America and elsewhere should look no further than our own government. The Christian evangelical right wing has had complete and total dominance over the Senate, Congress, White House and the Supreme Court six years running. So take a long look in the mirror AirRyan, the only people to blame for all of your supposed woes is YOU and your beloved cohorts. Stop blaming those damn libs and take some responsibility for your Olympic Gold Medal performance in Incompetence...you guys set a record that may never be broken in our lifetime.
 
MigFan
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RE: Venezuela Weighs Selling U.S. Jets To Iran

Thu May 18, 2006 1:01 am

Wow, that's a twist...
 
aeroweanie
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RE: Venezuela Weighs Selling U.S. Jets To Iran

Thu May 18, 2006 1:21 am

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 8):
I have a little theory of mine after studying sociology in college and it all goes back to the feminist bleeding heart liberal generation that gives the Liberals what little power that they now have.

I think you spent too much time reading sociology and listening to Rush Limbaugh. If you had instead studied some history, you would have discovered that Republican and Democrat presidents alike supported corrupt dictatorships all around the world. Their theory was that "yes, they are bastards, but they are our bastards".

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 8):
On a larger scale and without fully expounding upon it here in this forum, I believe we would have won Vietnam before Tet '68 if we would have fought the NVA like we did the Japanese and Germans, and had we expounded upon the will of the Atomic bomb dropped on Japan in WWII, North Korea would be Democratic and open to the World, China may not even be who they are today, and the war in Iraq would have been fought a lot differently (rad: successfully) before we even sent in one US soldier.

As I said, you have a serious history knowledge deficiency. One lesson of history is that just because the US gets militarily involved in a country doesn't mean they will be viewed as a liberator. This mistake was made in Vietnam, Somalia, Iraq, etc.
 
wingman
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RE: Venezuela Weighs Selling U.S. Jets To Iran

Thu May 18, 2006 3:26 am

I agree, I still find it shocking that people are so willing to display their ignorance and complete lack of education in such a public setting. And to suggest a course of action (bomb everybody!) that is presently such a failure in Iraq is almost stupefying in its idiocy. I don't know, it's like being force-fed stupid cake with a bitter stupid filling all topped off by stupid icing and dumb-dumb nuts.
 
AirRyan
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RE: Venezuela Weighs Selling U.S. Jets To Iran

Thu May 18, 2006 3:43 am

Quoting AeroWeanie (Reply 17):
As I said, you have a serious history knowledge deficiency. One lesson of history is that just because the US gets militarily involved in a country doesn't mean they will be viewed as a liberator. This mistake was made in Vietnam, Somalia, Iraq, etc.

Perhaps a little bit of Rush, but a lot of Michael Savage, too. But don't construe this as a political attack, but rather a societal attack on those which I believe are responsible for our current state of affairs. Its not a lack of historical knowledge on my behalf that skews your perspective - we were viewed as liberators in Vietnam to the South Vietnamese, but of course when tough-talking LBJ had his fill of making hard decisions before the end of his first term, he passed on a cycle of ineptitude to his predecessor in Nixon which hey, even as a Republican he was not immune to his own numerous follies.

Like I said, had we treated Communist Vietnam like we did our enemies in WWII, we'd have won that war and have been done with it by Tet '68. And Somalia you ask? That was yet again one of Klinton's handful of military phuck-ups and if he would have just given the military leaders a goal to accomplish, they would have done a much better job with the tactics than did he and his administration did. Somalia scared the crap out of Klinton and it showed it in his reluctance to finnally send troops into Kosovo, of which I was one. And once again, had we given our military commanders the goal and let them dictate what to fight it with and how to do it, minus the liberal media highlighting every possible negative while ignoring the posistives, Iraq and the world would be better off today.

When I speak of history I look back to those such instances as the Roman Army, the British Empire, the Spanish Navy, Napoleon's French Army conquests, as well as the way the US forged West against the Native American Indians, WWI/WWII, and even the Israeli military.

Go back and look throughout the history of mankind and you will find one common denominator missing from our current society and that is the decisive ability take a wound in the name of overall victory. After WWII, the guilt of using the bomb combined with the progressive feminist/liberal appeasement philosophy has hindered the US every step of the way begining with the Korean War and our reluctance to do anything to the Soviets or the Commie Chinese for their backing of the North Koreans. Don't misinterpret me here, the US military has the ability to do pretty much anything even today, but the US Government and our lazy, selfish, and egotistical "more-for-less" society here in the US doesn't have the political willpower necessary to fight and win a war even such that of WWII had it to be fought today.
 
sprout5199
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RE: Venezuela Weighs Selling U.S. Jets To Iran

Thu May 18, 2006 3:47 am

Quoting Wingman (Reply 18):
it's like being force-fed stupid cake with a bitter stupid filling all topped off by stupid icing and dumb-dumb nuts.

in the voice of Homer Simpson

"MMMMMMM Stupid cake"

Dan in Jupiter
 
MigFan
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RE: Venezuela Weighs Selling U.S. Jets To Iran

Thu May 18, 2006 4:18 am

Are we really bombing the insurgents, or is more-like they are bombing us? Maybe some serious "WWII" style carpet bombing of real targets, might bring a change to the whole situation?

/M
 
atmx2000
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RE: Venezuela Weighs Selling U.S. Jets To Iran

Thu May 18, 2006 4:23 am

Quoting Wingman (Reply 15):
What a joke, the Christian extreme right still blaming those damn libs for everything when they themselves have been in total control of all three branches of government for 6 straight years, preceded by 8 years of split control preceded by 12 years of very conservative control in Bush Sr. and Reagan.

Democrats controlled the Senate for most of 2001 to 2002. They controlled the both houses of Congress for most of Reagan's term and all of Bush Sr's term. Split control during the Clinton administration only went on for 6 years. Democrats controlled all both houses during the first two years of the first term.
 
LMP737
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RE: Venezuela Weighs Selling U.S. Jets To Iran

Thu May 18, 2006 8:16 am

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 9):
The Venezuelan Air Force has a KC707 which could be used to refuel the Falcons.

Could it carry enough fuel to sheppard those F-16's all the way to Iran? Maybe one at a time. However they would still have to get authorization to over fly countries on the route. I suspect that the US would put pressure on these countries not to.

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 9):
I don't think a ground attack is a feasible option. Imagine the diplomatic response the US would get by attacking Venezuelan soil.

Totally agree with you. The worst thing the US could do is launch an attack to take out those F-16's. What would be gained from it? Elimination of some early model F-16's that pose no threat to the security of the USA? One things for sure if it were to happen people who live in Venezuela who don't like Chavez would rally around the flag. Therefore an attack would be nothing more than handing a gift to old Hugo. Part of me thinks that's what he wants anyway.
 
CTR
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RE: Venezuela Weighs Selling U.S. Jets To Iran

Thu May 18, 2006 11:11 am

Forget about the F-16s. Let Hugo sell or give them to whom ever he wants. It's their replacements we need to be worried about.

Hugo's pockets are stuffed with money from oil profits. China, Russia and France are already standing in inch deep pools of their own drool from the prospect of new fighter aircraft sales.

The US government should expend every diplomatic and economic resource at their disposal to prevent the sale or delivery of these replacement aircraft.

Take care,

CTR
 
bushpilot
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RE: Venezuela Weighs Selling U.S. Jets To Iran

Thu May 18, 2006 11:30 am

Ok AirRyan, I am not one to do this often, but I have to respond to some of the most idiotic things I have read on this site.

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 8):
they want the illegals votes and will go so far as to ignore the majority opinion of the law-abiding legal residents.

Firstly, Illegal Aliens cant vote! You blame both parties, but it is the major corporations Wal Mart and Tyson foods etc who have thousands of them on thier payroll, both are major funders to the RNP. The GOP likes illegals because they come to this country for jobs, which thier cronies can give them for half as much as hiring a legal American.

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 1):
the US could if they wanted completely erase their existance overnight if they so wished.

yeah thats a great foreign policy mindset you have there. Just because someone else does something we dont like, yeah we kill em. Maybe we should use that same mentality on the neighbor who mows his lawn at 6am as well. We as a country have the ability to destroy the world, so fuckin what, I have a bunch of guns and can walk into my office with them and erase the exsistance of anyone who steals my paper clips. Chavez wants to sell some F-16s to any potential enemy of the US. Let em, there isnt spare parts, they are older models, it wont make a bit of difference in any country being more of a threat to the US. Those planes would get smoked in a heartbeat if they ever became a real threat.

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 8):
I believe we would have won Vietnam before Tet '68 if we would have fought the NVA like we did the Japanese and Germans

Different war, different set of rules. At that point it would have led to nuclear arms being used and the end of human kind. Yeah great way to solve the foreign policy problems we have. Nuke em. So do we nuke the Soviets after they shoot down gary Powers in the U-2?

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 19):
And Somalia you ask? That was yet again one of Klinton's handful of military phuck-ups and if he would have just given the military leaders a goal to accomplish, they would have done a much better job with the tactics than did he and his administration did. Somalia scared the crap out of Klinton and it showed it in his reluctance to finnally send troops into Kosovo

Yeah Somalia, we had a few dozen soldiers killed, and for what? Our presence there wasnt worth thier lives, so we said, gonna kill our soldiers while we are trying to help, fine we take our toys and go elsewhere. Would you rather we stay there and be there today so that sort of thing continues to happen when we have nothing to gain from it?
You talk about goals, what about the quagmire Iraq has become, and dont give me any of this liberal media bullshit, because there is a civil war going on there, there is far more bad news coming out of the current campaign because that is the truth on the ground. Are great things being done by our troops...sure, and I compliment them, I have friends over there right now, but it makes us aware of the foreign policy fuckups the Bush administration has laid upon us and it is costing the lives of damn fine young men.

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 19):
had we given our military commanders the goal and let them dictate what to fight it with and how to do it, minus the liberal media highlighting every possible negative while ignoring the posistives, Iraq and the world would be better off today.

It hasnt been the militaries mistake about what has happened in Iraq, it is the SecDef, the President etc. We can talk about the positives all day, and there are plenty of them going on, but you can give these Iraqis all the liberty, freedom, democracy etc, but it doesnt mean shit when the only jobs they can get are in the security forces arresting and fighting thier neighbors, when Haliburton and the like hire Americans for large dollars to do jobs Iraqis can and would do. None of the freedoms mean anything when you can provide for your family and they especially dont mean anything when you are hamburger on the side of the road from an IED.
 
AirRyan
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RE: Venezuela Weighs Selling U.S. Jets To Iran

Fri May 19, 2006 12:53 am

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 25):
Firstly, Illegal Aliens cant vote! You blame both parties, but it is the major corporations Wal Mart and Tyson foods etc who have thousands of them on thier payroll, both are major funders to the RNP. The GOP likes illegals because they come to this country for jobs, which thier cronies can give them for half as much as hiring a legal American.

They can vote illegally, which some if not many do as our voting system is no more perfect than our driver license offices - and that is why the Dems are so quick to appease them because they want to give them to right to vote as soon as possible so they can "re-pay" their gratitude and vote Donkey the next time around. I certainly agree with the assertion that Bush has long since ignored the illegal immigration issue even back when he was Governor of Texas for many of the same reasons. Like I said, I'm not intending to specifically attack the Democrat party but let responsibility lie as it may.

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 25):
yeah thats a great foreign policy mindset you have there. Just because someone else does something we dont like, yeah we kill em. Maybe we should use that same mentality on the neighbor who mows his lawn at 6am as well. We as a country have the ability to destroy the world, so fuckin what, I have a bunch of guns and can walk into my office with them and erase the exsistance of anyone who steals my paper clips. Chavez wants to sell some F-16s to any potential enemy of the US. Let em, there isnt spare parts, they are older models, it wont make a bit of difference in any country being more of a threat to the US. Those planes would get smoked in a heartbeat if they ever became a real threat.

That's ironic, because that is why I advocate doing nothing to Venezula more than what we already are.

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 25):
Different war, different set of rules. At that point it would have led to nuclear arms being used and the end of human kind. Yeah great way to solve the foreign policy problems we have. Nuke em. So do we nuke the Soviets after they shoot down gary Powers in the U-2?

You sound like a weiner - we never would never had to resort to Nukes in Vietnam or anywhere else for that matter, where do you get that from? We had such a superior military force that we could have taken over Hanoi nearly as fast as we did Baghdad had we the gumption. We were fighting that war by pussy-footing around. We could have been a lot more diplomatically persuasive on both China and Russia long before nuclear weapons would have been tossed.

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 25):
Yeah Somalia, we had a few dozen soldiers killed, and for what? Our presence there wasnt worth thier lives, so we said, gonna kill our soldiers while we are trying to help, fine we take our toys and go elsewhere. Would you rather we stay there and be there today so that sort of thing continues to happen when we have nothing to gain from it?
You talk about goals, what about the quagmire Iraq has become, and dont give me any of this liberal media bullshit, because there is a civil war going on there, there is far more bad news coming out of the current campaign because that is the truth on the ground. Are great things being done by our troops...sure, and I compliment them, I have friends over there right now, but it makes us aware of the foreign policy fuckups the Bush administration has laid upon us and it is costing the lives of damn fine young men.

Funny how most people in the US, even the alledged "African'Americans" have no interest in doing anything to stop the corruption and genocide rampant amongst the Continent. Iraq is not a quagmire, and you've obviously been riding your stubbron Donkey so long that I've found my time is simply more valuable than wasting it in discourse with such a jackassed perspective. Civil War, eh? That's what the liberal media and Nancy Pelosi would like you to believe so they can win back the House and Senate in November. That's what totally kills me about the Dems - ever since 9/11 they have put their own political careers and agenda ahead of the war on terror and for that they can never be forgiven. You don't compliment the troops - your the same hippie who would be spitting in their faces back during Vietnam.

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 25):
It hasnt been the militaries mistake about what has happened in Iraq, it is the SecDef, the President etc. We can talk about the positives all day, and there are plenty of them going on, but you can give these Iraqis all the liberty, freedom, democracy etc, but it doesnt mean shit when the only jobs they can get are in the security forces arresting and fighting thier neighbors, when Haliburton and the like hire Americans for large dollars to do jobs Iraqis can and would do. None of the freedoms mean anything when you can provide for your family and they especially dont mean anything when you are hamburger on the side of the road from an IED.

Like I said, all you know is what you want to hear that comes from the DNC and CNN. This isn't the place for this debate and like I said, after listening to even my hippie-lib cousin spout so much BS that he had no clue about, I don't like wasting my time with perspectives so far divergent from reality as its not even entertaining anymore.
 
Confuscius
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RE: Venezuela Weighs Selling U.S. Jets To Iran

Fri May 19, 2006 2:09 pm

Want to sell arms to Iran?

Perhaps the Venezuelans might want to contact a certain retired Marine Lt. Colonel who has plenty of experience selling arms clandestinely to Iran...can't quite recall his name though, but he has his own show on FOX news.  Wink
 
TedTAce
Posts: 9098
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RE: Venezuela Weighs Selling U.S. Jets To Iran

Fri May 19, 2006 6:19 pm

Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 2):
Trust me, Iran doesn't even want a handful of older F-16s without spares.

Something about once bit, twice shy?

Quoting MigFan (Reply 6):
Much in the same manner Iran has done with it's F-4s and F-14s.

Huh?? I was under the distinct impression that Iran had shelved the F-14's and they had accumulated no hours in the past 20 years. Maybe I have bad info.

Quoting Confuscius (Reply 27):
Want to sell arms to Iran?

Perhaps the Venezuelans might want to contact a certain retired Marine Lt. Colonel who has plenty of experience selling arms clandestinely to Iran...can't quite recall his name though, but he has his own show on FOX news.

 rotfl  and what president was he working for at the time, I can't remember that small detail either..
 
MigFan
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RE: Venezuela Weighs Selling U.S. Jets To Iran

Fri May 19, 2006 9:36 pm

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 28):
Huh?? I was under the distinct impression that Iran had shelved the F-14's and they had accumulated no hours in the past 20 years. Maybe I have bad info.

You had bad info...

https://www.airliners.net/open.file?i..._id=0307284&next_id=0249572&size=L
 
luisde8cd
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RE: Venezuela Weighs Selling U.S. Jets To Iran

Fri May 19, 2006 10:01 pm

Quoting Migfan (Reply 29):

You had bad info...

https://www.airliners.net/open.file?i...ize=L

That picture doesn't mean that the F14s are operational. Are they really flying?

Saludosd desde Caracas,
Luis
 
LMP737
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RE: Venezuela Weighs Selling U.S. Jets To Iran

Fri May 19, 2006 11:00 pm

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 30):
That picture doesn't mean that the F14s are operational. Are they really flying?

Yes the Iranians have managed to keep some of their F-14's flying. This is done by extensive canibilization, reverse engineering and I suspect being a bit liberal as to what they will allow in the air. It is somewhat doubtfull that the AWG-9 system is fully operational. There was a good article about Iran's F-14's in the latest issue of Combat Aircraft.
 
AirRyan
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RE: Venezuela Weighs Selling U.S. Jets To Iran

Sat May 20, 2006 2:25 am

Great book by Tom Cooper on the F-14's history in Iran - I believe he is definately of the opinion that Iran can still field them in combat today.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/184...-4778119-1883823?v=glance&n=283155

Did you hear that Iran is now going to start confiscating people's satelitte dishes if they are visible on their homes? In this weeks AvWeek. They are trying to pass new legislationg that would also impose a $5,000 fine. Seems they don't want Irans population which consists of 70% under the age of 30 viewing Western media sources. The thing is the people of Iran could be very significant allys but its their political leaders just like what is the case in a handful of South American countries who are pandering to the uninfomred poor to retain their power.

Right now, as the USN dismantles F-14s everyday for the foreseeable future, every single part is closely documented and accounted for so that none of them get back to Iran which would be used on their F-14's. I wish Iran wasn't whre they are right now, I'd love to see them keep their F-14's in the air and about the only thing I'd like see Russia sell Iran would be an upgrade program (perhaps using Sukhoi parts) for thier F-14 fleet.
 
MigFan
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RE: Venezuela Weighs Selling U.S. Jets To Iran

Sat May 20, 2006 3:07 am

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 30):
That picture doesn't mean that the F14s are operational. Are they really flying?

Do they look derelict? The canopy is open and the aircraft has been painted in an air superiority scheme that matches the service's Mig-29s and Su-24s. Granted, they are not in the same numbers as they once were, but they work. Most of the US hardware that is "Pre-Revolution" works, albeit in smaller numbers.

/M
 
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ptrjong
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RE: Venezuela Weighs Selling U.S. Jets To Iran

Sat May 20, 2006 3:21 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 28):
Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 2):
Trust me, Iran doesn't even want a handful of older F-16s without spares.

Something about once bit, twice shy?

No, it has nothing to do with that. Iran is a large country with a large air force and they're simply not interested in operating just a handful of not-so-magic F-16As for which they know in advance they cannot buy spares.
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Venezuela Weighs Selling U.S. Jets To Iran

Sat May 20, 2006 4:48 pm

It would be very unlikely the aircraft if ever sold would be flown over for delivery, especially to a place as far as Iran. Besides the logistics of staging such a long flight, I'm doubtful the Venezuelan AF are even trained for such longrange ocean operations and navigation.

Instead, with some disassembly, the aircraft can be crated and shipped via a ocean cargo vessel.

Off course the ship might suffer some sort of tragic accident enroute. Big grin
 
Tancrede
Posts: 235
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RE: Venezuela Weighs Selling U.S. Jets To Iran

Sat May 20, 2006 6:39 pm

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 7):
First they would have to get them there. This can be done two ways . You can fly them to Iran. The problem is even with external fuel tanks they won't make it. And I seriously doubt that the DOD is going to provide them with tankers to get them to Iran. The other meathod is to crate them up and put them on a ship. This of course would be open to interception by the USN.

Stop to read Tom Clancy's books

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 14):
From whom exactly? No one could persue a diplomatic campaign against the U.S., they would have to resort to economic tactics to achieve anything (i.e. shut-off oil to the world market)

US will loose what it's left from South America. Don't forget that recently EU and South America have tied much closer there relations on all levels.
 
LMP737
Posts: 6319
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 4:06 pm

RE: Venezuela Weighs Selling U.S. Jets To Iran

Sat May 20, 2006 10:30 pm

Quoting Tancrede (Reply 36):
Stop to read Tom Clancy's books

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make.
 
Tancrede
Posts: 235
Joined: Wed May 10, 2006 3:16 pm

RE: Venezuela Weighs Selling U.S. Jets To Iran

Sat May 20, 2006 11:23 pm

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 37):
Quoting Tancrede (Reply 36):
Stop to read Tom Clancy's books

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make.

I am meaning that the dreams of an all-out action against another country during peace time, with the feeling of total immunity and no later consequences are usually found in books written by Tom Clancy.
 
LMP737
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Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 4:06 pm

RE: Venezuela Weighs Selling U.S. Jets To Iran

Sat May 20, 2006 11:40 pm

Quoting Tancrede (Reply 38):
I am meaning that the dreams of an all-out action against another country during peace time, with the feeling of total immunity and no later consequences are usually found in books written by Tom Clancy.

Did I say anything about "all-out action", no I did. To make clear my views on this subject here's what I said in reply 23.

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 23):
Totally agree with you. The worst thing the US could do is launch an attack to take out those F-16's. What would be gained from it? Elimination of some early model F-16's that pose no threat to the security of the USA? One things for sure if it were to happen people who live in Venezuela who don't like Chavez would rally around the flag. Therefore an attack would be nothing more than handing a gift to old Hugo. Part of me thinks that's what he wants anyway.
 
bennett123
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RE: Venezuela Weighs Selling U.S. Jets To Iran

Sun May 21, 2006 12:11 am

IMO the best solution for Venezuela is buy from France.Russia or China who will sell planes and let him use them.

The F16 is a great plane when in the air but little use on the ground.

After the experience of Pakistan and Venezuela it seems that just because the US sells you aircraft does not mean that they will deliver them, (did Pakistan get it's money back) and even if they deliver them, they can still pull the plug later.

IMO countries buying JSF should take note.
 
stall
Posts: 254
Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2004 10:57 pm

RE: Venezuela Weighs Selling U.S. Jets To Iran

Sun May 21, 2006 12:40 am

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 7):
The other meathod is to crate them up and put them on a ship. This of course would be open to interception by the USN.

Even if the ship is iranian ?

Great way to bring down the oil price on the market  Smile
 
Tancrede
Posts: 235
Joined: Wed May 10, 2006 3:16 pm

RE: Venezuela Weighs Selling U.S. Jets To Iran

Sun May 21, 2006 12:53 am

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 39):
Did I say anything about "all-out action", no I did. To make clear my views on this subject here's what I said in reply 23.

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 23):
Totally agree with you. The worst thing the US could do is launch an attack to take out those F-16's. What would be gained from it? Elimination of some early model F-16's that pose no threat to the security of the USA? One things for sure if it were to happen people who live in Venezuela who don't like Chavez would rally around the flag. Therefore an attack would be nothing more than handing a gift to old Hugo. Part of me thinks that's what he wants anyway.

That's the way I do think, also.
 Smile
 
LMP737
Posts: 6319
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 4:06 pm

RE: Venezuela Weighs Selling U.S. Jets To Iran

Sun May 21, 2006 1:34 am

Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 40):
IMO the best solution for Venezuela is buy from France.Russia or China who will sell planes and let him use them.

The F16 is a great plane when in the air but little use on the ground.

After the experience of Pakistan and Venezuela it seems that just because the US sells you aircraft does not mean that they will deliver them, (did Pakistan get it's money back) and even if they deliver them, they can still pull the plug later.

Venezuela could buy Rafales from France. But they're not the cheapest fighters in the world either. Russia has shown that they will preety much sell to anybody. However they are not very forthcoming with technical support. Just ask the Luftwaffe, or the Iranians. What do the Chinese have to offer? The best fighter in their inventory is a licensed built SU-27.

Now lets go over the list of countries we have sold aircraft to and the list the US has pulled the "plug" on . Iran, that whole embassy thing. Pakistan, the cladestine nuclear program. Venzuela, Hugo getting on his soap box and making threats every chance he gets. So I guess the lesson here is that if you take over our embassy, start a nuclear weapons program in all ready unstable part of the world, or start "talking trash" the US will pull the plug. Imagine that. And how many countries fly US aircraft that have never had the "plug" pulled. I seriously doubt that copuntries like Australia, Britain, Canada, Denmark, Italy, the Netherlands, Norway etc really have to worry about that.

Quoting Stall (Reply 41):
Even if the ship is iranian ?

Great way to bring down the oil price on the market

Do I think it would happen, no. First reason being Iran already has a hard enough time maintaining their hodge podge fleet of aircraft. Why would they want an aircraft they have no expereince on or would never get technical support for anyway. Even if they were to take them the US knows they would end up collecting dust in some hanger. So why even bother making an effort to sieze them.
 
LMP737
Posts: 6319
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RE: Venezuela Weighs Selling U.S. Jets To Iran

Sun May 21, 2006 1:36 am

Quoting Tancrede (Reply 42):
That's the way I do think, also.

Well it looks like we are in agreement.  Smile
 
CTR
Posts: 299
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RE: Venezuela Weighs Selling U.S. Jets To Iran

Sun May 21, 2006 1:51 am

Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 40):
After the experience of Pakistan and Venezuela it seems that just because the US sells you aircraft does not mean that they will deliver them, (did Pakistan get it's money back) and even if they deliver them, they can still pull the plug later.

Great idea! Plus if Hugo buys aircraft from France they may throw in a dozen Exocet missles as a bonus! The Brits know what exellent weapons these are.

Pardon my sarcasim. But with the current instabillity of many South American governments, the last thing they need is an infusion of modern offensive weapons.

As I said before, let Hugo sell his hanger queen F-16s. But use all diplomatic and economic pressure to keep Hugo from replacing them.

Take care,

CTR
 
luisde8cd
Posts: 2444
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 12:02 am

RE: Venezuela Weighs Selling U.S. Jets To Iran

Sun May 21, 2006 7:28 am

Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 40):
IMO the best solution for Venezuela is buy from France.Russia or China who will sell planes and let him use them.



Quoting LMP737 (Reply 43):

Venezuela could buy Rafales from France. But they're not the cheapest fighters in the world either.



Quoting CTR (Reply 45):
Great idea! Plus if Hugo buys aircraft from France they may throw in a dozen Exocet missles as a bonus! The Brits know what exellent weapons these are.

Guys, I think the European fighters have components made by US Company. The current US arms embargo imposed to Venezuela, prevents Venezuela from buying weapon systems that have US parts.

The only option is Russia. They wanna get the SU-27. I'm sure the russians will take advantage of their monopoly and will rip us off badly. Rich Hugo, will simply sign the big check while 80% of my fellow countrymen live in extreme poverty.

Regarding the Excocets, Venezuela already has them. They came with the Mirages bought in the late 70s. The Mirages are Mirage50EV.

Saludos desde Caracas,
Luis
 
CTR
Posts: 299
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 4:57 am

RE: Venezuela Weighs Selling U.S. Jets To Iran

Sun May 21, 2006 10:37 am

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 46):
Saludos desde Caracas,
Luis

Luis,

Mi madre es Boliviana.

CTR
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Venezuela Weighs Selling U.S. Jets To Iran

Tue May 23, 2006 12:34 am

Quoting Wingman (Reply 15):
blaming those damn libs and take some responsibility



Quoting AeroWeanie (Reply 17):
a serious history knowledge deficiency

It is good to see that there are at least some with cooler view of what consitutes a foreign policy.

Quoting Tancrede (Reply 36):
Stop to read Tom Clancy's books

Suggesting those proposals were coming from fiction is much kinder than some interpretations that could be made for the more ferocious solutions proposed.

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 8):
if we would have fought the NVA like we did the Japanese and Germans

It is very depressing to read how the Vietnam war could have been won. A precis of part of that could be "how the Vietnam War could have been won if only the North Vietnamese had fought the right way". That is, if only the NVA had fought the correct war, the US would have won. But surprise, the NVA chose a method where they won. Try going back to what IIRC was the earliest advice from the CIA about Vietnam. This could be summarised as "don�t fight Uncle Ho, join him". At that stage he was not a communist. Even when he was lured to follow a communist line to obtain military support, the communist block was never monolithic. When N Vietnam won, what was its first action - a war against China. All the Vietnam war did was stop N Vietnam attacking China for about 10 or more years.

And, of course, we see "the wrong war" part of that pattern being repeated today in one and possibly two countries. That is where Colin Powell was (reportedly) correct, 'you break it, you own it''. But it is surprising that with his Vietnam experience Powell was not more adamant in his views.

Harking back to WWII fails to recognise the influence of communications. It is clear that WWII could not have been fought in the way it was fought with TV cameras and satellite communications around.

At least there seems to be some recognition on this thread that attacking Venezuela would increase support for Chavez, just as attacking Iran would keep the Ayatollahs in business for longer. The really smart thing would to ask Hugo �how many new F-16s does he want?� At least that would offset some of the trade balance on oil. If Hugo thinks F-16s would help his foreign policy, humour him.
 
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Buyantukhaa
Posts: 2342
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RE: Venezuela Weighs Selling U.S. Jets To Iran

Tue May 23, 2006 10:25 am

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 32):
Seems they don't want Irans population which consists of 70% under the age of 30 viewing Western media sources.

Of course, as watching Western media would turn them into hippies straight away:

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 26):
Like I said, all you know is what you want to hear that comes from the DNC and CNN. This isn't the place for this debate and like I said, after listening to even my hippie-lib cousin spout so much BS that he had no clue about, I don't like wasting my time with perspectives so far divergent from reality as its not even entertaining anymore.

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