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lehpron
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The Tactic Called "scrambling"

Mon Jul 17, 2006 6:44 am

Is it a defense manuver? Is it more of a speed again or altitude gain?
 
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f4wso
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RE: The Tactic Called "scrambling"

Mon Jul 17, 2006 7:38 am

Normally, to scramble is a quick launch of alert postured aircraft. It can be to intercept incoming air threat or in an air to ground role with troops in contact needing immediate close air support.

I take it from your post that you are not talking about scrambling radio signals.
Gary
Cottage Grove, MN, USA
 
MigFan
Posts: 710
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RE: The Tactic Called "scrambling"

Mon Jul 17, 2006 8:13 am

Aircraft that are scrambled are held in a state of alert depending on their alert status. Most air defense fighters are held on a fifteen minute alert, that would allow them to be airborne fifteen minutes after hearing the alert bell.

Back in the cold war, the QRA alerts were even shorter. Some units would keep their fighters on a five minute alert. Everything about the aircraft was ready to go. The aircraft is already pre-flighted, all possible settings that would occur in a normal departure routine that can he done in advance are set and waiting. The crew would wait in an adjoining building to the hangar, which was usually right near the end of the runway. When the alert came, the pilots would jump in, power on, taxi about one hundred feet to the end of the runway, and go...

/M
 
checksixx
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RE: The Tactic Called "scrambling"

Mon Jul 17, 2006 9:21 am

Quoting MigFan (Reply 2):
Aircraft that are scrambled are held in a state of alert depending on their alert status. Most air defense fighters are held on a fifteen minute alert, that would allow them to be airborne fifteen minutes after hearing the alert bell.

That's incorrect information. Fighters sitting alert in the US today usually get airborne in about 1 to 2 minutes. Any alert facility that takes fifteen minutes to get jets in the air would instantly fail an inspection. Typically, our jets are in the air in about 1 minute, 20 seconds from the scramble order. It can vary but thats the average.
 
MigFan
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RE: The Tactic Called "scrambling"

Mon Jul 17, 2006 10:53 am

Quoting Checksixx (Reply 3):
Fighters sitting alert in the US today

Super!

There are fighters based outside of the U.S.

Quoting Checksixx (Reply 3):
That's incorrect information.

No it is not...

/M
 
checksixx
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RE: The Tactic Called "scrambling"

Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:44 am

MigFan-

1) I thought the original poster was referring to US air defense fighters.
2) All US fighters sitting alert use pretty much the same SOP's, even those based in a foriegn country.
3) ANY US alert fighter unit that took even close to 15 minutes would FAIL its ORI-period.
4) If your post I quoted above is referring to aircraft sitting "alert", then yes, the time figure you posted is incorrect. Don't get upset because I corrected the post so that the original poster gets a good answer...I didn't slam you, simply corrected an error.

-Check
 
MigFan
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RE: The Tactic Called "scrambling"

Tue Jul 18, 2006 9:06 am

I am not upset, I just don't agree with you. It's cool. NATO standards call for a fifteen minutes QRA for visual intercept. Where your info is coming from, I don't know. Nor do I want to get into a he said: he said.

I know for a fact that your information is not accurate. I am not looking for an argument or fight. I just disagree with you, that is all.

/M
 
Jalto27R
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RE: The Tactic Called "scrambling"

Tue Jul 18, 2006 10:59 am

Quoting MigFan (Reply 6):
I am not upset, I just don't agree with you. It's cool. NATO standards call for a fifteen minutes QRA for visual intercept. Where your info is coming from, I don't know. Nor do I want to get into a he said: he said.

I know for a fact that your information is not accurate. I am not looking for an argument or fight. I just disagree with you, that is all.

I can tell you right now, from personally visiting, talking, and witnessing events at the 177th Fighter Wing in Atlantic City, NJ, that Checksixx is correct. Even with the setup at ACY, which forces the F-16's to taxi a descent distance, they can haul ass off the runway within 2-3 minutes. 15 minutes and you better hope your enemy is flying a Yak or something, cause you're screwed.

Mike
 
checksixx
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RE: The Tactic Called "scrambling"

Tue Jul 18, 2006 12:13 pm

Thanks Jalto27R...I worked closely with the 119th at Langley since the alert facility was first put into operation. But that aside, I'm sure both you and I are completly inaccurate...not wanting to pick a fight or anything box  ....I can tell you my information is directly from the Air Force as am I. Later,

Check
 
MigFan
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RE: The Tactic Called "scrambling"

Tue Jul 18, 2006 8:24 pm

Point taken, but I still do not agree. I am not air force (Army).

Not picking a fight...

/M
 
lehpron
Topic Author
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RE: The Tactic Called "scrambling"

Wed Jul 19, 2006 3:36 pm

I should have been more specifc, I did not want to come off as making assumptions.

I asked wondering about what goes on at one of our local bases, MCAS Miramar in San Diego. Hornets always takeoff in pairs but don't try to climb too much, just staight accelerate, buzzing over 5 miles of crowded city by 1000-feet. If an airliner took off from there it would be over a mile up by then. I want to use thew word 'scramble' but there may be another word for it.

They seem like they do it once a day, maybe more, I just pass by on the bus after work and see them in close formation.
 
Contact_tower
Posts: 534
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RE: The Tactic Called "scrambling"

Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:47 pm

Quote:
Fighters sitting alert in the US today usually get airborne in about 1 to 2 minutes.

They are sitting in the aircraft are they?

[Edited 2006-07-19 14:48:04]
 
checksixx
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RE: The Tactic Called "scrambling"

Wed Jul 19, 2006 10:03 pm

Quoting Contact_tower (Reply 11):
They are sitting in the aircraft are they?

No, they are not sitting in the aircraft.

Check
 
MigFan
Posts: 710
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RE: The Tactic Called "scrambling"

Wed Jul 19, 2006 11:13 pm

Quoting Checksixx (Reply 12):
No, they are not sitting in the aircraft.

They are sitting in a chair right next to the aircraft. I apologize for the sarcasm, but I could not resist.

The 101/102 at Otis ANG sat on a 5-10 minute QRA in the eighties! These are F-15As, the same one they have now. I am not a fighter pilot, but I do have flying experience on small aircraft. A Cessna 172 takes 5-10 minutes to get off of the ground, and that is a machine that is a tenth as complex. An F-15 is not like a car, one does not simply turn a key and hit the pedal. That much I know.

NATO QRA standard sets a 15 minute response for visual intercept.

/M

Any USAF fighter jocks out there?
 
XC5Eng
Posts: 54
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RE: The Tactic Called "scrambling"

Wed Jul 19, 2006 11:55 pm

I can't comment on fighters, but when I pulled SAC alert on bombers we could be airborne in minutes. The exact time was classified, but still that was an eight engine bomber vs. a one or two engine fighter. I would say a fighter in a matter of minutes is definately plausible.
 
checksixx
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RE: The Tactic Called "scrambling"

Thu Jul 20, 2006 4:39 am

I'd reply but Migfan apparently knows that I'm wrong even though he's asking for the information. If anyone would like to discuss it offline, my email is [email protected]

I'm at Langley.
 
XC5Eng
Posts: 54
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RE: The Tactic Called "scrambling"

Thu Jul 20, 2006 4:55 am

Checksixx, I understand what you are saying. We had everything preflighted to starting engines. Every switch positioned so that when we got to the plane the pilot flipped a switch and all 8 engs started at the same time. Start engines, throttle up and go! What a rush! Our start configuration always depended on ICBM flight times from Soviet subs for that day. Sometimes we had up to 20 minutes to play around and sometimes we were restricted.
 
MigFan
Posts: 710
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 12:50 am

RE: The Tactic Called "scrambling"

Thu Jul 20, 2006 5:52 am

Quoting Checksixx (Reply 15):
I'd reply but Migfan apparently knows that I'm wrong even though he's asking for the information

=

Quoting Checksixx (Reply 5):
Don't get upset

I would just like a person with actual experience, and not "a friend who knows a guy who used to..." to add their two cents. It is okay to disagree with others, you know??? I see many examples of that in these forums.

/M
 
checksixx
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RE: The Tactic Called "scrambling"

Thu Jul 20, 2006 7:49 am

I've got actual experience. I tried posting the information and it was rejected. Not sure how to be more clear than that. For now, if you'd like further information (Which I'd be happy to share the non-classified stuff), please use my email addy I posted. Thanks...

Check
 
arluna
Posts: 95
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RE: The Tactic Called "scrambling"

Thu Jul 20, 2006 11:23 am

Migfan,

As a crewchief on a KC-135 during the SAC days I spent approximately one hundred twenty days each year on EWO Alert. Even on a KC our response time was less than six minutes from klaxon to takeoff, and it still is. My son is a crew chief on an F-15E and the response time for their alert birds is as checksixx says, no more than two minutes. Fifteen minutes may be the response time for NATO but not for US forces. Checksixx knows what he's talking about.

Arluna

[Edited 2006-07-20 04:38:40]
 
checksixx
Posts: 1247
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RE: The Tactic Called "scrambling"

Thu Jul 20, 2006 10:22 pm

Arluna...I gotta ask...where the heck do we have F-15E's on alert? England, Korea....just curious! Thanks!

-Check
 
Lt-AWACS
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RE: The Tactic Called "scrambling"

Thu Jul 20, 2006 11:13 pm

While Checksixx has posted incorrect info before (like the no alerts at Buckley thread) but he is mostly correct this time... but then again so is migfan.

There are different types of alert postures both in the US and at NATO. I've scrambled, controlled, and worked the CAOCs for all the different types and some of you are talking apples and oranges.

Yes NATO has a 15 mike standard. Some US strip alerts are under 5 minutes, some are 15, and some aircraft it is 1 or 3 hours. Just depends on the readiness posture of the day. Look at the LOAs (letters of agreement) between the fighters, AWACS, Sectors, and ARTCCs and you can even see the scramble routes and some timing involved.

Ciao, and Hook 'em Horns,
Capt-AWACS, Fat kids are harder to kidnap
 
checksixx
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RE: The Tactic Called "scrambling"

Thu Jul 20, 2006 11:37 pm

Quoting Lt-AWACS (Reply 21):
While Checksixx has posted incorrect info before (like the no alerts at Buckley thread)

Buckley...What are you talking about?? Just trolling to start a fight? Not going to happen AWACS, nice try. He was refrencing fighters and then the topic turned to alert fighters. US. By the way the guys at the barn said that NATO 15 minutes is from alert to identification. Not getting off the ground.

-Check
 
MigFan
Posts: 710
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 12:50 am

RE: The Tactic Called "scrambling"

Fri Jul 21, 2006 2:20 am

Quoting Arluna (Reply 19):
ifteen minutes may be the response time for NATO but not for US forces. Checksixx knows what he's talking about.

I'll accept that, and stand corrected. Others could be less abrasive in their posts, no?

Thanks Lt-AWACs, I understand my information and point, but did not believe check's info.

/M
 
RAPCON
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RE: The Tactic Called "scrambling"

Fri Jul 21, 2006 2:25 am

From klaxon to takeoff is about 5 minutes. Slightly less if the bogey is already under interception and is being handed down to the next set of alert craft--the crew would already be hooked up and the apu would've had everything ready to go.
 
checksixx
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RE: The Tactic Called "scrambling"

Fri Jul 21, 2006 3:32 am

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 24):
From klaxon to takeoff is about 5 minutes. Slightly less if the bogey is already under interception and is being handed down to the next set of alert craft--the crew would already be hooked up and the apu would've had everything ready to go.

Here we go again! YEE HAA!
 
MigFan
Posts: 710
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RE: The Tactic Called "scrambling"

Fri Jul 21, 2006 4:03 am

Quoting Checksixx (Reply 25):
Here we go again! YEE HAA!

No, there you go...  stirthepot 

/M
 
Lt-AWACS
Posts: 2120
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RE: The Tactic Called "scrambling"

Fri Jul 21, 2006 4:40 am

Quoting Checksixx (Reply 22):
Buckley...What are you talking about?? Just trolling to start a fight? Not going to happen AWACS, nice try. He was refrencing fighters and then the topic turned to alert fighters. US. By the way the guys at the barn said that NATO 15 minutes is from alert to identification. Not getting off the ground.

-Check

No kid not trolling just noting that you have posted incorrect info on scrambling before, including the thread on Buckley (which I posted a correction on, about the fighters on alert there), that being said part of your info above was correct.

Though,again, you and the others are talking somewhat apples and oranges. Are we talking strip alert, runway, RP-1, Rp-3 etc? which airframe, who is opcon and tacon for the jets, and who is sending the order? Who is controlling: AWACS, Sectors, GCI? The LOAs and AFI are available for all to see and read on the issues. NATO has various postures as well, not just "15" minutes.

RAPCON is correct in the event of a handoff due to shadowing of aircraft.

Ciao, and Hook 'em Horns,
Capt-AWACS, Seven Continents Down, None To Go
 
RAPCON
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RE: The Tactic Called "scrambling"

Sat Jul 22, 2006 5:04 am

Quoting Lt-AWACS (Reply 27):
RAPCON is correct in the event of a handoff due to shadowing of aircraft.

Before I became an officer, I was an enlisted ATC GOD (therefore my user id "RAPCON"). I had to clear the airspace, and rearrange the pattern, plenty of times whenever the Zulu birds got the call to go!
 
Lt-AWACS
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RE: The Tactic Called "scrambling"

Sat Jul 22, 2006 9:20 am

I had taken my share of handoffs when I was an Air Weapons Officer on the E-3. I feel your pain LOL.

Ciao, and Hook 'em Horns,
Capt-AWACS, I do this to annoy people
 
L-188
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RE: The Tactic Called "scrambling"

Sat Jul 22, 2006 2:44 pm

Quoting Lehpron (Thread starter):
Is it a defense manuver? Is it more of a speed again or altitude gain?

The origin of the scramble is from the 1st world war. Fighters wheren't based at airports with runways. They where based on farmers fields. If enemy aircaft where spotted somebody would ring a bell. The pilots would run to their airplanes from their billets and then take off at all at once.

This tactic was still used by the RAF during the Battle of Britian in WWII and I am sure by other forces also. The advantage is that by using a large field it is very hard to knock it out compared to a runway that you can just put a bomb crater in the middle of. Also the fighters can be widely dispersed on the field and planes depart from different locations on it.

Quoting Migfan (Reply 13):
They are sitting in a chair right next to the aircraft. I apologize for the sarcasm, but I could not resist.

What Sarcasm?....Have you ever seen some of the pictures of RAF pilots during the Battle of Britian waiting on Alert. They had some very cushy chairs they procured from local sources living rooms.

One other point, fighters aren't they only ones that can scramble. Every wonder why USAF SAC bases had that "Chrismas Tree" arrangement? It was so that the B-52's could easily scramble.

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